So with the Open Container Bill passing the Senate, how do you think this will shape up OTR in terms of balancing it with being an entertainment district and a residential district. And which areas do you guys believe should be allowed in OTR for the open container zones.

It's not going to happen in OTR.  It will happen at the Banks, and maybe an uptown area.  OTR Community Council is on record opposing it.

Bourbon Street, America's most famous open container district, on a beautiful Saturday morning.

 

The trash associated with open container districts is immense.  All the cups have to be disposable, since no one is letting you take glass out of their restaurant. Trashcans will be overflowing even more than they already do.

 

Can't wait!!

So with the Open Container Bill passing the Senate, how do you think this will shape up OTR in terms of balancing it with being an entertainment district and a residential district. And which areas do you guys believe should be allowed in OTR for the open container zones.

It's not going to happen in OTR.  It will happen at the Banks, and maybe an uptown area.  OTR Community Council is on record opposing it.

 

That's an area I disagree with them on.  OTR should trump up its history.

Honestly, stop comparing it to Bourbon Street. Bourbon Street is a shit show for reasons other than being open container.

 

A more accurate comparison is Downtown Savannah. That picture you posted? Never happens there. You're posting a picture of one of the busiest party streets in the world and expecting it to be taken seriously as a comparison to OTR? Come on now.

 

Also, overflowing trash cans? I don't remember the last time I saw an overflowing trash can other than the ones directly outside the pizza places on Main Street. You know how you easily handle that problem? More trash cans. Solved.

So with the Open Container Bill passing the Senate, how do you think this will shape up OTR in terms of balancing it with being an entertainment district and a residential district. And which areas do you guys believe should be allowed in OTR for the open container zones.

It's not going to happen in OTR.  It will happen at the Banks, and maybe an uptown area.  OTR Community Council is on record opposing it.

 

That seems incredibly dumb. So not even for that short stretch of vine where there are bars upon bars upon bars upon bars and not have it apply for the rest of OTR? Just seems such a waste to potentially create a real entertainment zone similar to beale street..

Based on the rewording of the open container law, one district covers almost the entirety of the riverfront, Downtown, and OTR.

 

The .5 square mile is a maximum, but it is up to the cities to propose, maintain, and enforce the specific boundaries. So, I suspect most cities (including Cincinnati) will start with a much smaller, concentrated district at first to test the waters. Districts boundaries can always be revised later. Even though the new state law would allow Cincinnati to legally put much of the urban basin into a single district, it seems highly unlikely that'd happen.

 

I know this open container issue is OT, but I have to say I think it's a very bad idea to allow it anywhere near residential areas.  Noise, litter, urine, vomit, underage drinking, etc. are all very likely to occur and cause problems for people who live nearby.  I mean, just look how downtown's trashed when these street parties are held.  It's disgusting.  I live downtown, blocks away from 5th Street and the noise, litter, urine and vomit nevertheless make their way to my sidewalks.  Sheesh, there are more and more bars opening all of the time.  Isn't that enough?

Please, look up the ACTUAL results of open container districts. No offense, but you're wrong. Those things reduce with open container laws. People end up getting less drunk in open container districts resulting in LESS of those things. Open container laws have also been attributed to a reduction in drunk driving incidents in places they've been implemented. A nice spinoff.

 

A festival is not the same thing. Stretching there. A lot.

 

Edit: Wording

Vine Street is really nice and a main thoroughfare which I think would be really hard to cut off.  Not saying Beale Street isn't nice, I haven't been there, but Vine Street is much more than a bar scene.  If anything in OTR the place to put it would be on Main Street and I am not even sure of that.  I think putting it at the Banks is the best thing for now and I am sure if they want to put another one up sometime later they could take a look.

For the love of god people, look up the ACTUAL results of open container districts. No offense, but you're wrong. Those things reduce with open container laws. Look it up. People end up getting less drunk in open container districts resulting in LESS of those things.

 

A festival is not the same thing. Stretching there. A lot.

 

Yeah I looked it up in New Orleans once. 

 

No, Jake, you didn't. You are using an example of a street that's basically a festival atmosphere every single weekend and has built its entire identity on getting wasted and causing a commotion. Not even close to the same thing as OTR. Use actual comparisons. Like Savannah. Then get back to me.

You don't want me to post my photos from Savannah either. 

Considering I've lived in Savannah, I think I have a pretty good grasp at what the open container laws do on a typical, non-festival weekend.

Vine Street is really nice and a main thoroughfare which I think would be really hard to cut off.

You don't have to shut the street down for vehicular traffic in these districts.

Considering I've lived in Savannah, I think I have a pretty good grasp at what the open container laws do on a typical, non-festival weekend.

 

I was there on a regular weeknight when things were boorish and out-of-control.  I wouldn't want to live around that.  I don't want Cincinnati's national image to become police babysitting the drunks.  I don't want to see hoards of 30-55 year-olds getting drunk and whooping in public.  Get a life. 

 

I guess I just don't understand the need for these.  None of the Ohio cities are huge party destinations ala New Orleans or Las Vegas, so what's the point? New York, Chicago, LA, SF, DC all seem to get by without open container zones, what makes us think they're going to be beneficial here? Jmicha, you keep referencing Savannah as being a more realistic comparison than New Orleans, but I don't see many similarities between Cincy and Savannah- a small town that has a huge tourism industry. I think there could be something positive by allowing drinking in some parks, as that could encourage more public life and picnicking in the parks.  If you've ever been to Paris and seen all the locals picnicking and drinking wine along the Seine, it's a relaxed and casual environment rather than a party type atmosphere, and I think each of the 3Cs could benefit from something like that.

 

However, having been to The Banks recently and having seen the clientele that frequents the bars there, I have VERY little confidence that these patrons will respect the neighborhood and the park.  These are mostly suburbanites who could really care less about the city and the people who live where they are partying.  To them, downtown is a place to drink and go to a ball game- NOT a neighborhood.  With all the bars and restaurants opening downtown, I just feel like there are already plenty of ways to drink without having to do it on the sidewalk.  Finally, picture the mess that will be the Riverfront on Bengals games.  It's already a complete shit show down there with the tailgating, but think about if it's legal to just walk around with booze from PBS to GABP.  I'd avoid that area like the plague.

Okay well here's the thing. That's not how Savannah is on a regular basis. I lived there for a year in the historic district and never saw that type of garbage outside of festivals or events. In fact, most of the time it was easy to forget people were even drinking outside.

 

And again, open container districts reduce drunkenness. That's a proven fact in places that have implemented them. So your little "get a life" scenario that you so nicely worded would reduce from where it is now. So you should support it since you won't have to spend you time worrying about other people.

Well that's the problem then. You're viewing this as something designed to entice partying. That's not the point. The point is exactly what you described in your Paris scenario. You don't need tourism and partying to benefit from people being able to wander from place to place with a drink in hand or having a glass in Washington Park while watching a show.

Well that's the problem then. You're viewing this as something designed to entice partying. That's not the point. The point is exactly what you described in your Paris scenario. You don't need tourism and partying to benefit from people being able to wander from place to place with a drink in hand or having a glass in Washington Park while watching a show.

 

Why just restrict it to two zones then? If the problems are so minor with open container districts, why don't we just allow open container state-wide? The point of these zones as the legislation is crafted is clearly to create party zones.  The legislation came from Cincinnati and the stated goal has been to create something like Beale or Bourbon St at The Banks.  You really want the Tin Roof and Toby Keith's crowd roaming around the riverfront with Bud Lites and footlong mixed drinks? If there were small zones set up in parks where booze was allowed, I think that would be a much better scenario.  Say along the Serpentine Wall, Great Lawn of Smale, maybe a spot or two in Eden and Washington Parks, etc.  That would allow there to be more public life in our cities (something each of the 3Cs could greatly benefit from) without ceding whole districts to drunks and partiers.

There will be a standard "to-go" cup that's used for any beverage to go which will be limited to a certain size. You can't take that foot long mixed drink outside in these scenarios. This is why it's more pleasant than people are stating it will be. People will go into a bar, buy the limited one to-go drink which will be small, and then go walk around outside. The reason people get so drunk inside bars is because of super easy access to basically any drinks they want. If you're out and about and not inside a bar it's more likely you'll drink less drinks and you'll be moving about which reduces the effects of alcohol on the body. This is why public drunkenness decreases in open container districts that aren't Bourbon Street. That example is an entirely different animal as it basically functions as a massive festival year round. Not something that will ever happen in OTR or The Banks or anywhere else in Cincinnati or Ohio.

 

The "why limit" it answer is "government pandering." You and I both know how it would go over if they tried to make it everywhere, regardless of actual potential consequences.

^I know this is way off topic and should be moved to the right thread, but can you provide any links to backup your claims that open container districts reduce drunkeness?  They sure don't have that effect in Vegas, that's for sure.

I'm at work right this second, but a google search results in several examples, one by the NHTSA which states open container districts as a factor in reduced drunk driving incidents in places they've been implemented.

 

Let me ask a question though. You state, "it doesn't in Vegas" but how would you know? How would you know open container laws are the cause of the drunkenness in a place that encourages being drunk all day? You're having a bit of a causation vs. correlation moment.

Considering I've lived in Savannah, I think I have a pretty good grasp at what the open container laws do on a typical, non-festival weekend.

 

I was there on a regular weeknight when things were boorish and out-of-control.  I wouldn't want to live around that.  I don't want Cincinnati's national image to become police babysitting the drunks.  I don't want to see hoards of 30-55 year-olds getting drunk and whooping in public.  Get a life. 

 

 

That sounds like a life to me! I love getting drunk and whooping in public.

Who DOESN'T enjoy a good whooping session? Haha.

Who DOESN'T enjoy a good whooping session? Haha.

 

I just don't get it.  Based on what I've read, you DO have a life!

Let me ask a question though. You state, "it doesn't in Vegas" but how would you know? How would you know open container laws are the cause of the drunkenness in a place that encourages being drunk all day? You're having a bit of a causation vs. correlation moment.

 

Have you been to Vegas? Places are so expensive that it's very common for people to hit up a liquor store before getting to the hotel, and just drink while wondering up and down the street.  It greatly contributes to the feeling that the party never stops.  When you're going from place to place, you can be drinking during that time if you're so inclined.  If you don't have money to pay for $12 drinks, you can fill a solo cup with booze and just meander the streets.  In fact, many places there prohibit you from taking outside drinks into their establishments, so you see chugging on the sidewalk. 

 

I know Vegas operates by a different set of rules than nearly anywhere on the planet, but I do think it's telling that most of the places that have open container in the US are party hotspots.  Maybe Savannah is the outlier.

I actually don't drink so there are no whooping sessions in my life. I prefer my nights out to be affordable, responsible, but still fun and to still be able to get up the next morning at 7:30 and get my weekend errands done before all my hungover friends I went out with are even out of bed. Makes for the best of both world. I have a ton of fun out, get a good sleep in, then have the entire weekend to get stuff done. Come Monday I'm fulfilled and ready to be a sort of productive member of society haha.

 

I get that Vegas is a hot mess. But your last statement is the most accurate. It operates on its own rules. You mentioned tourism and that's the difference. These are places perceived as somewhere you go and party before going home. This isn't necessarily how Downtown or OTR feel because they're neighborhoods that more and more people live in and respect. That's why places like Savannah (though it definitely is a huge tourist spot) fare better. People respect the history and the quality of the environment and don't want to trash it. They have a sense of ownership even if they don't necessarily live there. That's a quality missing in Vegas or Bourbon Street.

No one realizes this, but Indianapolis (the entire city) allows open containers everywhere except parks. It seems to work there pretty well.

 

I wish we could just follow Indy's example and stop regulating this so much. Just prevent glass bottles and provide extra recycling/trash cans.

 

And Savannah is gorgeous and definitely doesn't suffer the same way that Bourbon Street does with trash and drunks. I hear St. Patrick's Day is different, but most of the time outside of river walk it isn't a huge party. Your experiences at Bourbon Street are not similar to how most open container areas work.

Indy's open container is actually the exact opposite of this proposal.

 

This proposal is, you must buy alcohol from a business within in the district.  Indy's is you can't carry alcohol from one bar to the outside. Ohio's will make it illegal to bring your own alcohol into the district. Indy's is essentially only for that purpose.

 

Very interesting.

Vine Street is really nice and a main thoroughfare which I think would be really hard to cut off.

You don't have to shut the street down for vehicular traffic in these districts.

 

Exactly, the district should max out at the largest size allowable by the law, and try to stretch from Washington Park to Main Street along 12th and 13th. They shouldn't need to restrict traffic anywhere, just let people get a slice of pizza and a beer any enjoy it on the street.

 

The community council is made of up residents, who likely don't want to deal with drinking in the streets, be it memories of homeless passed out drunk in the streets, or simply not wanting drunk visitors from other parts of the city making noise outside. But we need to be honest - OTR is the biggest nightlife destination in the city and is an ideal candidate for an open container district.

The problem is that the "people will piss, vomit, blah blah blah" rhetoric isn't supported by any stats or facts. The exact opposite happens. Open containers or not, people will do these things. But when people don't sit in one place for a long time and get up and move about while holding a single drink they end up consuming less on average. That's the only thing statistics support. Less public drunkenness.

 

I don't care what "statistics" say in this instance.  As a long-term downtown resident I know what I've seen.  There's more inconsiderate behavior when people are drinking in the streets.  How on earth are large open carry areas going to be policed, given all of the rules associated with them?  Are cops going to go around and card  people to make sure there are no underage drinkers?  Are they going to watch to see if people carry drinks from bar to bar?  Are they going to watch everyone to see if they're drinking out of bottles?  Are they going to watch to see if people bring their own beverages?  Are they going to interrupt people who piss on someone's building, planter or sidewalk?  I don't think so.  Have you seen how absolutely trashed Fifth Street is during Oktoberfest?  Or smelled it?  You don't live close enough to it to experience the nuisance it can cause the surrounding area.  I don't care if open carry's permitted in parks -- it's tacky, inconsiderate and inappropriate near residential areas or in the middle of streets.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry, but you don't care what stats say? What kind of argument is that?

 

And again, I'm sorry, but you're just flat out wrong if you're connecting a festival to this open container law. They're not even remotely the same thing.

 

You can say you "know what you've seen" but you've never seen an open container district in Cincinnati, so your point is moot.

 

And, yet again, you're ignoring the fact that those things REDUCE when open container laws are in place because people are less likely to get intoxicated. You're having an emotional response and failing to see that it's blinding you from the facts surrounding how open container districts exist and operate.

Bars can be nuisance enough for people who live nearby, and even more so if their patrons are encouraged to roam around outdoors.  I know people who've moved away from Vine St. in OTR because of the nuisance the bar/restaurant patrons cause.  Not everyone wants to walk out of their front door into a crowd of drunks.  Haven't you noticed HS-aged kids hanging around there, especially in the summer, because it's a scene?  Nothing wrong with that, but allow open carry and those kids will become underage drinkers much more easily.  You're never going to convince me it's a good idea to allow open carry in the streets or near residential properties.  I've lived downtown long enough to know better. 

 

It's my understanding that people who ride the pedal wagons aren't supposed to open carry, but I see them drinking all of the time.  And they're often loud and obnoxious well into the wee hours.  If it's illegal, why isn't it enforced?  It would be a lot easier for cops to cite people on the pedal wagons than a huge area, yet they don't bother.  It'll be the same with open carry.   

 

Too many people consider downtown a place to visit and trash.  Open carry will just encourage it even more.

The pedal wagon somehow gets a free pass on everything.  I think there was an OTR residents group that started a "band the pedal wagon" facebook group.

 

Turning significant section so downtown and OTR into open container districts will negatively affect residential property values when and if things start getting out-of-control.  Is a condo located directly above a biker bar worth more or less than one located above a fabric store?  The same goes for a residence in a notorious bar district. 

Wow, a good heated discussion. This is wonderful!

 

But yeah as far as this issue goes I would have to say that Indianapolis has open container and once I have seen it abused. I have seen a guy during the early afternoon on a Friday carrying a growler down Mass Ave, and he was so drunk / drugged / out of it that he was flailing and unable to walk. He passed out on the ground and was lucky that he didn't wander into the street and get hit. Yes, he was that bad. I'm thinking it had to be drugs.

 

 

Anyways, overall I don't see the issue. I assume this jurisdiction can be allowed to be turned on/off for certain days of the year? It makes no sense to allow open container on a Monday morning in downtown Cincinnati, for instance, but it makes a lot more sense on a Saturday evening so people can have a drink with whatever entertainment is happening at Fountain Square.

 

 

What worries me is the areas where this kind of law will lead to blatant drinking and driving. Like the VOA shopping center, which is only accessible by car. If people are wandering around there with drinks and drinking for extended periods of time, I can guarantee a lot of those people haven't found a DD (or have an irresponsible DD), aren't going to call a cab or an Uber (which barely services West Chester) , and are going to get behind the wheel and onto places like I-75.

 

That's my only issue with this law. Otherwise, let the people drink!

The municipality can set the specific laws of each district (location, hours, days, etc). I'm assuming they can also set different rules for different areas of the same district, but I'm not sure.

 

So the city could shut down open containers after midnight, at bar closing, at 10pm, whatever. They could start it at 8am, noon, 5pm, whatever.

 

They could probably only allow weekend drinking outside if they wanted.

 

On a bit of a separate note:

 

I wonder, are cities allowed to open up drinking to certain areas of city owned parks if they want regardless of this law passing? Like, I understand Washington Park sells alcohol for certain events, but each one is separately registered I believe. I wonder if Cincinnati could allow you to bring your own alcohol to a specific part of Smale Riverfront Park.

 

I was in Montreal last summer and (while not in the books and technically legal) the cops will let you drink in parks if you're having a picnic. Without food, you can't drink. It would be nice to sit at the Riverfront, grab a six pack, and just enjoy a summer evening watching boats pass.

 

EDIT: I found a provision in the law that states you can't consume alcohol in a "public place" unless specifically called out. But I can't find a definition for "public place" except where smoking is concerned (ORC Section 3794.01). In the smoking section, it says that a public place is an "enclosed area" generally open to the public that is not a private residence. "Enclosed area" is defined as having a roof and at least 3 sides. So it seems the only definition of "public place" has a roof. Meaning a park is not considered a "public place". Unless the definition in the smoking area is not pertinent to other sections, it seems cities should be allowed to open drinking at their discretion in city owned parks. Is this way off or is this legal?

Main Street and Vine open container, everywhere else not (except the banks). If the boundaries are too loose goosey no one will know them so it should just be a couple streets, and Main and Vine are already the primary bar/ restaurant streets anyway. Maybe walnut too just because its stuck inbetween them anyway and it has its own nightlife too, especially downtown. Leave elm and race etc to be more low key and residential friendly.

The municipality can set the specific laws of each district (location, hours, days, etc). I'm assuming they can also set different rules for different areas of the same district, but I'm not sure.

 

So the city could shut down open containers after midnight, at bar closing, at 10pm, whatever. They could start it at 8am, noon, 5pm, whatever.

 

They could probably only allow weekend drinking outside if they wanted.

 

On a bit of a separate note:

 

I wonder, are cities allowed to open up drinking to certain areas of city owned parks if they want regardless of this law passing? Like, I understand Washington Park sells alcohol for certain events, but each one is separately registered I believe. I wonder if Cincinnati could allow you to bring your own alcohol to a specific part of Smale Riverfront Park.

 

I was in Montreal last summer and (while not in the books and technically legal) the cops will let you drink in parks if you're having a picnic. Without food, you can't drink. It would be nice to sit at the Riverfront, grab a six pack, and just enjoy a summer evening watching boats pass.

 

EDIT: I found a provision in the law that states you can't consume alcohol in a "public place" unless specifically called out. But I can't find a definition for "public place" except where smoking is concerned (ORC Section 3794.01). In the smoking section, it says that a public place is an "enclosed area" generally open to the public that is not a private residence. "Enclosed area" is defined as having a roof and at least 3 sides. So it seems the only definition of "public place" has a roof. Meaning a park is not considered a "public place". Unless the definition in the smoking area is not pertinent to other sections, it seems cities should be allowed to open drinking at their discretion in city owned parks. Is this way off or is this legal?

 

I'd rather see police not focus on things like time restrictions, or whether there's a croissant making that six pack legal (lol at Montreal) but rather on unruly behavior.

 

Where I live in San Diego it's technically illegal to drink on the beach, or in the parks. This is never enforced. Actually, there is drinking on just about every sidewalk in my hood..not enforced.

 

However, the moment someone's actions start to infringe on the rights of others or cause some kind of disturbance to neighboring business, tourists or residents, that's when you see the police in action. To me that's the proper role for law enforcement. Why expend resources on technical violations that aren't hurting anyone?

 

Was talking with police last weekend. They get demoralized handling parking issues. There's just enough real crime in the city that the police don't want to waste their time in dealing with minor things. 

The fact that we have open container laws at all is ridiculous. We're how many decades out of prohibition and we're still afraid of alcohol? We should not only abolish open container laws but also lower the drinking age.

Turning significant sections of downtown and OTR into open container districts will negatively affect residential property values when and if things start getting out-of-control.

 

It's too bad more people can't seem to comprehend this. 

 

The only two days a year that this may cause additional issues (at least in Cleveland) is St Patty's day and Home opener. Other than that, nothing will change. It's not like everyone who goes to our downtowns is there to get super trashed and party all night. The majority of people like to just go out for a nice dinner and a couple drinks. This may even encourage them to take a late evening stroll and add more people to the streets!

Turning significant sections of downtown and OTR into open container districts will negatively affect residential property values when and if things start getting out-of-control.

 

It's too bad more people can't seem to comprehend this. 

 

 

Probably because it isn't true? You can't just make stuff up and pull the "I live downtown I know what I see during Oktoberfest" card since it has no relation to this. I live in OTR and during Lumenosity Washington Park (my backyard) was trashed, plants stomped on, garbage everywhere, etc. Do I have any delusion that this is at all like a normal weekend? No. Because I can understand the differences between two entirely separate things.

 

Think about the events and places you're using as a negative example. Oktoberfest draws over 500,000 people in one weekend. Most are people who only ever come down for huge events. Do you ACTUALLY believe that is similar whatsoever to a typical weekend? Can you honestly tell me you think that type of atmosphere has any relation to the typical "let's go out to dinner and to the bars" atmosphere that makes up OTR and Downtown's nightlife?

 

And, again, stop ignoring the fact that open container districts in similar cities do not negatively affect the neighborhoods they are located in. You can cry and complain about all these individual things despite precedent proving you wrong and all it does it make you look closed off to any new ideas. Without bothering to research those ideas because you can't be bothered by things like "facts" or "reality."

The fact that we have open container laws at all is ridiculous. We're how many decades out of prohibition and we're still afraid of alcohol? We should not only abolish open container laws but also lower the drinking age.

 

100% agree with the first part. The fact that I can't enjoy a nice alcoholic beverage at a park is beyond irritating (don't get me wrong, I still do enjoy them at parks but I have to be careful). I'm an adult. Beer is legal. Why can't I walk down the street with a beer? If I cause a scene, then arrest/ticket me.

 

Not so sure about the drinking age, but not totally against it either.

When smoking was banned indoors, a lot of restaurants and bars set up outdoor seating, even on already-narrow sidewalks.  This isn't a problem per se or even at all in non-residential areas, but I live near a bar which eventually removed their outdoor seating because too many of their patrons routinely took their partying outdoors and got very loud up until closing hours, even on weeknights, and neighbors complained.  With our narrow streets downtown, it doesn't take much volume to become bothersome, and intoxicated people are usually loud especially when in groups. 

 

If we want people to live downtown and enjoy it, we have to be very careful about maintaining the kind of environment in which they can expect to get a decent night's sleep.  Those of us who live downtown already expect to tolerate more noise than a suburban cul-de-sac.  Sirens, dumpster emptying, cars and buses create noise that we expect to hear.  But none of those noises last long before it's relatively quiet again.  When people are partying outdoors it's a totally different matter.  It can last for hours.  That's why I oppose open carry near residences.

We keep hearing about these "facts" that open container districts reduce drunkenness.  Can we get some stats on that?

I think this article gets to the heart of this kind of debate: http://streetsblog.net/2010/05/21/new-urbanist-silverback-andres-duany-and-the-young-locusts/

 

We need downtown to be livable. I think most urbanists account for some degree of noise, litter and some smells however everyone has a limit and its different for everyone.

 

I just saw a friend the other day who moved out of 12th and Main because of the constant noise after 2am.

 

Personally I think if this passes the area that is open container will look and feel like a Taste or an Oktoberfest for a while simply because its new and everyone will be down here to drink in the street. However I think at some point the novelty will wear off and things will simmer down.

 

Also when I visited Cologne Germany, the whole city allowed drinking in the streets. I was out on a Friday and the place was packed but everyone was respectful, not really rowdy in public areas, etc. I attribute this more to the culture there more than anything. Here in the states we are so haunted by our Puritan/Quaker/Prohibitionist roots that we can't chill out as a nation on the subject matter, which in turn encourages these types of behavior.

I think the best place in Cincinnati for this is the Banks.  I think they will roll with this first and see where it takes them.  I don't think Main Street is built up enough to take advantage of this yet, and I think Vine Street should stay as is which is more of a classier restaurant scene than a bar scene anyways.  I think if you put it on Vine Street, you would run the risk of scaring off upper income folks from the suburbs from coming down to OTR for the food scene and a couple drinks.  I know a few people personally who do this every weekend and even on the week days and, if it turns into an open container area it will dramatically change the scene.  Vine Street isn't even built up for a scene like that anyways.

 

Main Street and maybe 12th from Walnut to Main could be a better spot in OTR, but I just don't think it is built up enough to turn it into a destination spot like that yet.

 

The Banks is the place to do this and let's see how it works out from there.

 

 

The House voted 87-7 in favor of the bill yesterday. Kasich signed it into law today. It included an emergency clause so it is considered law today. There is a 30 day waiting period once the city proposes a district with regulations to collect input from citizens. Cincinnati will likely need to submit a plan in the next 2-3 weeks to be sure they can get everything up and running in time for the All Star Game.

I think this article gets to the heart of this kind of debate: http://streetsblog.net/2010/05/21/new-urbanist-silverback-andres-duany-and-the-young-locusts/

 

We need downtown to be livable. I think most urbanists account for some degree of noise, litter and some smells however everyone has a limit and its different for everyone.

 

I just saw a friend the other day who moved out of 12th and Main because of the constant noise after 2am.

 

Personally I think if this passes the area that is open container will look and feel like a Taste or an Oktoberfest for a while simply because its new and everyone will be down here to drink in the street. However I think at some point the novelty will wear off and things will simmer down.

 

Also when I visited Cologne Germany, the whole city allowed drinking in the streets. I was out on a Friday and the place was packed but everyone was respectful, not really rowdy in public areas, etc. I attribute this more to the culture there more than anything. Here in the states we are so haunted by our Puritan/Quaker/Prohibitionist roots that we can't chill out as a nation on the subject matter, which in turn encourages these types of behavior.

 

I once got a little irked with some of the neo-Prohibitions on FR and commented that if some tavernkeeper had used a shotgun on Carrie Nation while she was damaging his property, it would have saved this nation tremendous amounts of drama, difficulty, and policy idiocy. 

 

Unfortunately, that mindset has actually gotten worse since the late 80s or so.

So I'm hearing that Cincinnati is not going to set these up before the ASG.  Apparently the perception around the state was "let's get this done so Cincy can have it for the ASG".  Refreshment zones Cranceled.  More needless Cincy drama.