You're looking at Toronto through the lens of the present. In the 1950s, Toronto was third or fourth fiddle in Canada (population of 14 million in 1951) behind the biggest city (Montreal), government (Ottawa), cultural centers (Montreal, Quebec City). Toronto was a mess back then, with an anemic industrial economy and untapped port.

 

But if you consider Toronto/Hamilton vs. Cleveland/Akron just in terms of city and metro populations, Cleveland proper and Cleveland/Akron metro populations were bigger than Toronto's and Toronto/Hamilton metro's populations until the late 1960s.

It was actually Today's Special that put Toronto on the map in the early 1980s

 

 

15 new towers of 20+ stories adding 7,000+ housing units west of downtown? This makes CityPlace pale in comparison....

 

 

 

 

as an example of how much the Toronto area is growing, a major new development is planned for Brampton, Ontario, a suburban city about 25 miles away (about the distance from Cleveland to Mentor), which will replace an old mall called Shoppers World.  My sister has lived in the area since the 60's and I remember going to this mall when it first opened. Brampton in the 60's had about 40K pop. It's now almost 600K

 

https://www.blogto.com/real-estate-toronto/2019/11/shoppers-world-brampton/

 

 

And the growth is hitting ol' steeltown Hamilton too, basically the distance from Akron to Cleveland. I just got a notice about this new skyscraper in Hamilton. I count 31 stories on this puppy....

 

WELCOME TO MARQUEE

This 242-unit luxury rental building is a Vrancor Group masterpiece property. Marquee Residence represents the best of Hamilton’s dynamic resurgence as a forward-looking city. Legacy Realty has been granted the exclusive ability to lease all units at Marquee Residence building.

20 GEORGE ST.

Located at 20 George, at George & Caroline Street South in the heart of the enchanting Central Hamilton community, Marquee Residence is one of the city’s most thrilling new urban developments.

 

https://livemarquee.ca/

 

Edited May 16, 20205 yr by KJP

Sorry I haven't kept up with the development projects in Toronto because it's become almost impossible to keep up with it. Why?

 

Consider that of the 75 buildings of 150 meters (492 feet) or taller in Toronto proper, only 13 were built before 2000. 

 

Toronto also has another 35 towers 150 meters or taller under construction with 92 MORE skyscrapers 150 meters or taller that are either approved or in the proposal stage.

 

It wasn't always this way. Toronto didn't recover from the Great Depression until the 1960s. Between 1932 and 1964, only ONE building above 91.5 metres (300 ft) tall was built.

 

 

 

 

 

we just got a studio gang bldg in ny recently, the solar carve bldg about a block away from us. they are an up and coming outfit from chicago i think with interesting work. its good to see toronto starting to break away a bit from dull glass condo boxes.

New Mirvish Village mega-development rising where Honest Ed's once stood...

 

 

 

Cool to see them preserving old facades and incorporating them into the new construction.

 

 

I miss Honest Ed's.  Only visited once but it was great. 

 

 

 

 

 

Love the 1983 photo.....

 

Toronto skyscrapers keep getting taller and more are coming

https://www.blogto.com/real-estate-toronto/2021/07/toronto-skyscrapers-taller-more/

 

Compare the 1983 photo with the 2020 photo (click to enlarge the 2020 pic)

 

 

 

Toronto - the NYC of Canada.

Except Toronto is actually building subways, commuter rail lines and streetcars on a grand scale, with the TOD to support it.....

 

https://courbanize.com/projects/engage-east-harbour/information

 

Engage East Harbour

 

What Has Happened?

 

The Province of Ontario is building a modern, more reliable and seamless transit network in the Greater Toronto Area with the GO rail expansion program as well as the largest subway expansion in Canadian history – including the brand-new 15.6-kilometre Ontario Line. 

 

As part of this plan, the Province is taking a bold new approach to city building and leading the province’s first Transit Oriented Communities Program (TOC). This approach will bring more jobs and housing closer to transit – increasing ridership, reducing congestion, and stimulating economic growth.

 

The Province and City have been working together (through a Memorandum of Understanding) to create a provincially-led, expedited process for review of TOC proposals that will enable delivery of TOCs while ensuring commitments for transit service delivery are met. Consultations with the community are a critical element of this TOC process.

 

What’s Happening Now?

 

As committed in April 2021 when the East Harbour TOC was announced, the East Harbour “Mixed-Use Master Plan” is the first proposed TOC development brought to life under the program and review process. The Mixed-Use Master Plan is now being made available to the public for review and comment by the Province and its TOC partner Cadillac Fairview.

 

What's Happening Next?

 

Through the TOC program, the East Harbour Project Team is seeking to secure public commentary as part of the review and approvals process for the “Mixed-Use Master Plan.” Over the next several months, the Project Team will be hosting a series of public engagement events - we hope you’ll join us in sharing your thoughts and feedback. 

 

MORE

 

https://courbanize.com/projects/engage-east-harbour/information

 

 

 

Hard to believe Cleveland and Toronto were very similar 50 years ago.  Since then, one got their sh*t together, the other didn't. 

18 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Hard to believe Cleveland and Toronto were very similar 50 years ago.  Since then, one got their sh*t together, the other didn't. 

Give me a break.  Toronto is the New York of Canada...an entire nations financial, entertainment, transportation and media capital with a regional population three times that of Greater Cleveland.  Also a huge beneficiary of Canada's liberal (and sensible) immigration policies.  50 years ago Toronto's population was over 2,000.000 while Cleveland's was 750.000 so no they were not very similar then. Why would you even try to compare the two?

 I compare the two because of an article a few years ago (maybe in the Cleveland PD) that compared the two cities.  I believe the metro areas of Cleveland and Toronto were about the same 50 years ago.  In the 70s, Toronto replaced Montreal as the commercial and financial capital of the nation. Here is a photo of Toronto from the 60s:

 

 

Here is some more info:

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/i4se4k/1960s_toronto_skyline_looks_like_a_mediumsized/

 

38 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

Give me a break.  Toronto is the New York of Canada...an entire nations financial, entertainment, transportation and media capital with a regional population three times that of Greater Cleveland.  Also a huge beneficiary of Canada's liberal (and sensible) immigration policies.  50 years ago Toronto's population was over 2,000.000 while Cleveland's was 750.000 so no they were not very similar then. Why would you even try to compare the two?

Fifty years ago, the difference in directions between Cleveland and Toronto was well established.  However, up until World War 2, Cleveland and Toronto were basically the same size population-wise.  As early as 1950-1951 Toronto started its massive growth.  Cleveland, on the other hand, had reached its peak.  A century ago, Cleveland had about 50% more population than Toronto.

1 hour ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Hard to believe Cleveland and Toronto were very similar 50 years ago.  Since then, one got their sh*t together, the other didn't. 

This is just a dumb, ignorant, asinine comparison. Toronto is Canada’s New York in a country in which the population is less than the state of California. If Toronto was an American city, it would have developed differently simply because there are many other large cities in this country. Toronto has benefited because there are only a handful of large cities in the 2nd largest country in the world in sq miles. It’s astonishing that you don’t realize this.

1 hour ago, Htsguy said:

Give me a break.  Toronto is the New York of Canada...an entire nations financial, entertainment, transportation and media capital with a regional population three times that of Greater Cleveland.  Also a huge beneficiary of Canada's liberal (and sensible) immigration policies.  50 years ago Toronto's population was over 2,000.000 while Cleveland's was 750.000 so no they were not very similar then. Why would you even try to compare the two?

I agree with pretty much everything, except when referring to the population figures. The city of Toronto today refers to an area that's basically like a metro area is US terms. I remember up until the 60's there was a core city that was Toronto, similar to that of what's considered the official city of Cleveland today. I think it had a population of about 600K at that time, and then metropolitan government--which included this core city, plus Scarborough, Etobicoke, North York and Mississauga was established, giving it the 2 million figure. Since then, the GTA (Greater Toronto Area) has been formed, encompassing several regional areas, which expanded the population to about 6 million. But yes, at one time I can remember--in the 60's when I used to visit relatives every summer--Toronto had a metro area about the size of Cleveland. In fact, I remember that skyline shot (above), when the most prominent buildings were the massive Royal York Hotel (sort of like the Waldorf Astoria of Toronto), and the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce (which, at only about 40 floors and for decades the tallest building in the British Commonwealth) to the right. 

@Htsguy Look at it through the lens of history, not of the present day. Consider...

 

Toronto METRO population (note the geographic area which included Brampton, Hamilton, Mississauga, York and others):

 

1950 -- 1,068,000

1960 -- 1,744,000

1970 -- 2,535,000

1980 -- 3,008,000

1990 -- 3,807,000

2000 -- 4,607,000

2010 -- 5,499,000

2020 -- 6,197,000

 

Cleveland METRO population (MSA includes Lorain, Medina, Painesville and others + CMSA includes Akron Metro):

 

1950 -- 1,392,000 + 369,000

1960 -- 1,789,000 + 460,000

1970 -- 1,954,000 + 542,000

1980 -- 1,751,000 + 516,000

1990 -- 1,680,000 + 529,000

2000 -- 1,786,000 + 570,000

2010 -- 1,781,000 + 569,000

2020 -- 1,763,000 + 565,000

 

SOURCE: https://www.macrotrends.net/

 

In the 1940s-1960s, Toronto was a light industrial city visitors avoided on their way to/from Montreal and Quebec. My family avoided it and so did my friends. When an older friend's family passed Toronto on the highway coming back from Montreal in the early 60s, my friend asked "What city is that?" His parents replied "Toronto, but you don't want to go there."

 

An elderly friend of mine who grew up in Toronto in the 1940s and 50s, looked upon Detroit and Cleveland with envy with their nationally dominant industries and their good pay. It's why Sea World located its third park (after San Diego and Orlando) in Aurora in the 1960s. No other place had a higher overall blue-collar wealth with newly earned vacation time, weekends, etc. than the Detroit-Toledo-Cleveland-Akron-Youngstown-Pittsburgh region with more than 12 million people.

 

In 1981, Toronto surpassed Montreal in population as it had already become the nation's financial center as large banks moved their HQs out of Montreal during the Liberté Quebec's political unrest and terroristic attacks on the Montreal stock exchange and banks in the 1970s and 1980s.  It wasn't until 1982 that trading in the shares of large companies was transferred from the Montreal Stock Exchange to the Toronto Stock Exchange as were the trading of smaller companies to the new Canadian Venture Exchange. They moved to Toronto because Toronto was described as a city that was run with the precision of a Swiss watch.

 

By comparison, Cleveland's awesome industrial might was losing ground with increased globalization, a lack of investment and modernization of its own industries, lack of economic diversification and extensive local corruption.

 

Many of you know Toronto for what it has been in recent decades. Go back and look at old photos of Toronto from the 1950s/60s and before. Tell me what you see. Talk to old-timers who grew up there. Tell me what they say.

just to reassure myself I wasn't going crazy, here's a map of the original "Metropolitan Toronto" in which you can see the boundaries of the historic old city of Toronto (and the GTA in the inset). Apparently I was wrong about Mississauga being part of the first Metro area. It's just amazing though, how some of these areas have developed business districts and major skylines of their own, like North York (shown below), which is several miles from downtown (seen in the distance toward the left)

 

 

1 hour ago, KJP said:

@Htsguy Look at it through the lens of history, not of the present day. Consider...

 

Toronto METRO population (note the geographic area which included Brampton, Hamilton, Mississauga, York and others):

 

1950 -- 1,068,000

1960 -- 1,744,000

1970 -- 2,535,000

1980 -- 3,008,000

1990 -- 3,807,000

2000 -- 4,607,000

2010 -- 5,499,000

2020 -- 6,197,000

 

Cleveland METRO population (MSA includes Lorain, Medina, Painesville and others + CMSA includes Akron Metro):

 

1950 -- 1,392,000 + 369,000

1960 -- 1,789,000 + 460,000

1970 -- 1,954,000 + 542,000

1980 -- 1,751,000 + 516,000

1990 -- 1,680,000 + 529,000

2000 -- 1,786,000 + 570,000

2010 -- 1,781,000 + 569,000

2020 -- 1,763,000 + 565,000

 

SOURCE: https://www.macrotrends.net/

 

In the 1940s-1960s, Toronto was a light industrial city visitors avoided on their way to/from Montreal and Quebec. My family avoided it and so did my friends. When an older friend's family passed Toronto on the highway coming back from Montreal in the early 60s, my friend asked "What city is that?" His parents replied "Toronto, but you don't want to go there."

 

An elderly friend of mine who grew up in Toronto in the 1940s and 50s, looked upon Detroit and Cleveland with envy with their nationally dominant industries and their good pay. It's why Sea World located its third park (after San Diego and Orlando) in Aurora in the 1960s. No other place had a higher overall blue-collar wealth with newly earned vacation time, weekends, etc. than the Detroit-Toledo-Cleveland-Akron-Youngstown-Pittsburgh region with more than 12 million people.

 

In 1981, Toronto surpassed Montreal in population as it had already become the nation's financial center as large banks moved their HQs out of Montreal during the Liberté Quebec's political unrest and terroristic attacks on the Montreal stock exchange and banks in the 1970s and 1980s.  It wasn't until 1982 that trading in the shares of large companies was transferred from the Montreal Stock Exchange to the Toronto Stock Exchange as were the trading of smaller companies to the new Canadian Venture Exchange. They moved to Toronto because Toronto was described as a city that was run with the precision of a Swiss watch.

 

By comparison, Cleveland's awesome industrial might was losing ground with increased globalization, a lack of investment and modernization of its own industries, lack of economic diversification and extensive local corruption.

 

You Toronto for what it has been only in recent decades. Go back and look at old photos of Toronto from before the 1950s. Tell me what you see. Talk to old-timers who grew up there. Tell me what they say.

I have never seen so many cranes in a downtown then when I went to Toronto in 2018. I counted 70 before I lost track. 

5 hours ago, KFM44107 said:

I have never seen so many cranes in a downtown then when I went to Toronto in 2018. I counted 70 before I lost track. 

About 2 1/2 years ago, we went to Toronto.  It was our first time back there in quite a few years.  We were blown away by the huge number of newer hi-rises in the western lake shore area.  This is the area near where the QEW ends and the Gardiner Expressway begins.  The traffic was unbelievable.  On a Saturday afternoon, the streetcar traffic was extremely heavy with headways of a minute or two.  This was the area of the Humber Loop where the Queen Street line ends at the end of the Queensway and the Long Branch line starts.  We tried to drive into the downtown, but the street traffic was so heavy we just headed back.  Unfortunately, we didn't have the time to use their excellent mass transit system. 

The last time I was in Toronto was in the early 90s and it was getting pretty crazy then.  I used to visit quite often in the late 70s and 80s and always enjoyed those visits, but the last one was not very enjoyable and I haven't been back.

3 hours ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

About 2 1/2 years ago, we went to Toronto.  It was our first time back there in quite a few years.  We were blown away by the huge number of newer hi-rises in the western lake shore area.  This is the area near where the QEW ends and the Gardiner Expressway begins.  The traffic was unbelievable.  On a Saturday afternoon, the streetcar traffic was extremely heavy with headways of a minute or two.  This was the area of the Humber Loop where the Queen Street line ends at the end of the Queensway and the Long Branch line starts.  We tried to drive into the downtown, but the street traffic was so heavy we just headed back.  Unfortunately, we didn't have the time to use their excellent mass transit system. 

 

The area around Humber Bay is what Toronto is trying to do with the East Harbour, and what it already did in creating the CityPlace district west of Union Station. Toronto plans big and builds big. That approach goes back to postwar urban renewal, which Cleveland designed around highways and parking lots.

 

Both Cleveland and Toronto built their cross-town heavy rail lines in the 1950s. But while Cleveland built cheaply along freight tracks through 19th century industrial areas, Toronto built subways and put them through dense neighborhoods. It encouraged large buildings be built at subway stations. And while Cleveland sold off its streetcars, Toronto acquired them.

 

On 9/8/2021 at 11:59 PM, KJP said:

 

The area around Humber Bay is what Toronto is trying to do with the East Harbour, and what it already did in creating the CityPlace district west of Union Station. Toronto plans big and builds big. That approach goes back to postwar urban renewal, which Cleveland designed around highways and parking lots.

 

Both Cleveland and Toronto built their cross-town heavy rail lines in the 1950s. But while Cleveland built cheaply along freight tracks through 19th century industrial areas, Toronto built subways and put them through dense neighborhoods. It encouraged large buildings be built at subway stations. And while Cleveland sold off its streetcars, Toronto acquired them.

In the early 1950's, many streetcar systems in the United States were eliminating their streetcar systems.  Toronto eagerly purchased over 200 fairly new PCC streetcars from Cleveland, Cincinnati, Birmingham and Kansas City.  Between the purchases of the used PCC's and the opening of the Yonge Street Subway, the TTC was able to modernize its system.  In the postwar boom that started Toronto's phenomenal growth, building subways was the only way the TTC could handle more people as the traffic exceeded the capacity of the surface streets. 

 

The subways served to fuel growth in Toronto.  The Yonge Street Subway was extended to the north and extended by basically forming a "U" to run under University Street.  The Bloor-Danforth east-west subway opened in the mid-1960's making traveling much easier from the east or west to get into the heart of the city.  That subway and more extensions fueled urban growth even more.  In Cleveland, the rapid transit's single downtown stop due to the killing of the downtown distribution subway by County Engineer Albert Porter ended up never generating any downtown growth.   

 

In Toronto, some of the streetcar routes were trimmed back or eliminated by the late 1970's.  Many of the postwar PCCs were replaced by the Canadian Light Rail Vehicle (CLRV) around 1980.  By the mid/late 1980's the similar Articulated Light Rail Vehicle (ALRV) brought about the retirement of the remaining PCC car fleet.  A new Harborfront Streetcar line opened and the Spadina route was restored.  At the end of 2019, Toronto's streetcar system had service provided by another generation of streetcars built by Bombardier.  As each of  the Bombardier streetcars is double the length of of the CLRV and about 25% longer than the ALRV, the 204 Bombardier units have significantly more capacity than the 196 CLRV's and 52 ALRV's they replaced.  New light rail lines are being built in the Eglinton area of Toronto that will eventually operate about 140 LRV's.  In Cleveland, the long overdue replacement order for the rapid transit fleet that could number 70-75 units is so small and is weighed down by "politics".  The bidding process has been bungled and so far has gathered minimal car builder interest. 

 

Toronto's CLRV's and ALRV's were basically contemporaries age-wise of Cleveland's Breda LRV's and Tokyu HRV's.  In Toronto, the  Bombardier units were ordered in 2009 and started entering service in August 2014.  Due to many production issues, the final ones were delivered in January 2020.  In Cleveland, the re-bid for RTA's replacements hasn't even occurred.  Even if the bidding closes at the end of 2021, don't expect to see any new rail cars on RTA until the end of 2026 at the earliest.

Edited September 10, 20213 yr by LifeLongClevelander

Yup, I recall.

 

I think it's getting to the point that even the biggest Toronto boosters (not just disgruntled old-timers) are getting sick of all of this development, and how anyone can afford to live there is a mystery. About twenty years ago my nephew bought a house in a large new development north of Toronto called Sonoma Heights, located in Vaughan. The homes are decent, but average and suburban. I thought he was exaggerating when he said his home had gone up in value to over $1M today. I found out it's even worse. The prices on the link are in Canadian $$, but at an exchange rate of about .80 they're still well over a million US$. Isn't this the classic definition of a housing bubble? It's insane. 

 

http://www.linoarciteam.com/sonoma-heights-homes-for-sale.php

 

 

^Toronto ranked #2 in the world for housing bubble risk

 

https://www.narcity.com/toronto/toronto-real-estate-is-so-pricey-its-housing-bubble-risk-ranked-2nd-largest

 

At least the architecture is finally getting better

Except that Greater Toronto is adding more than 100,000 people per year. Over the next 25 years, it is projected to add another 2.9 million people -- equal to another Greater Cleveland-Akron area -- and reach 10 million. So it's only a bubble if the reality doesn't match up to the projections.

that 25yr projection crystal ball.

 

but for now it's nice to see this city finally getting better architecture and a supertall.

 

canada seems to be hoovering up immigration talents these days, i wish cle would get in on that more aggressively.

 

Toronto's famed Massey Hall reopens after 3-year renovation. Regarded as "Canada's Carnegie Hall" (both opened in the 1890's and have similar seating capacities in the main hall).

 

lol

 "The building's exterior – which bears elements of the Classical, Romanesque, and Edwardian styles – was originally critcized. This was in part because one of its architects, Sidney Rose Badgley, was at the time living and working in Cleveland, and, though he was Canadian, this was unpaletable to a Toronto establishment at the height of its British Imperial identity. 

 

 

Edited November 27, 20213 yr by eastvillagedon

it's official: Toronto is now as obnoxious as New York. These developments, of course, are just two among dozens (hundreds?) planned. Don't they have any zoning laws? 

 

 

The first proposal is replacing these buildings which don't appear to be particularly historic or noteworthy. The second is replacing this building which is historic, but the site is right next to a subway station and the new building will be significantly taller than the one it's replacing. So... while I don't especially love the architecture or street presence of these two proposals, and I would hope the neighborhoods would push for this to be improved, I don't see the logic in opposing the density altogether.

1 hour ago, taestell said:

The first proposal is replacing these buildings which don't appear to be particularly historic or noteworthy. The second is replacing this building which is historic, but the site is right next to a subway station and the new building will be significantly taller than the one it's replacing. So... while I don't especially love the architecture or street presence of these two proposals, and I would hope the neighborhoods would push for this to be improved, I don't see the logic in opposing the density altogether.

I think the opposition is that it will be kicking out some small businesses that people enjoy, who will most likely not be able to afford retail in the new development. 

While it's much to Toronto's credit that it has escaped the tragic fate of so many American cities, and its neighborhoods are stable and relatively crime-free by comparison, I think a lot of people are beginning to question why it has to be like Manhattan, which is how parts of it are starting to look judging by the non-stop development that is taking place. Just because a building doesn't seem to officially qualify as "historic" is not a reason to level it and replace it with a 30-story glass tower. Having watched countless Toronto walking videos (Johnny Strides) in recent months, it's even apparent, based on his comments (a lifelong Toronto resident--real name Ed Hicks--who's obviously proud to live there) that the city is reaching a tipping point when enough is enough. Not only are all these buildings destroying "neighborhoody" appeal, they're largely unaffordable to average longtime residents, in a city where home prices are currently so surreal as to defy all common sense. I don't think anyone in Toronto is "opposing density." It's obvious that Toronto is pretty damn dense now and there's no going back, but maybe putting the brakes on this development on steroids wouldn't be such a bad idea. 

I thought you were all about the free market and limiting government regulations? 

 

Toronto's population continues to grow rapidly, so if development is restricted, what will happen to affordability?

 

Perhaps if more Great Lakes cities offered Toronto's quality of life, they might be able to attract some of those who otherwise live in Toronto and ease its development pressures.

 

judging by some of the comments, not everyone is happy about this ☹️