Cleveland Cavaliers quietly seeking Cuyahoga County taxpayer support for planned overhaul of Quicken Loans Arena

By Andrew J. Tobias, Northeast Ohio Media Group

on January 29, 2015 at 4:26 PM, updated January 29, 2015 at 5:05 PM

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Representatives of the Cleveland Cavaliers have quietly inquired whether the Cuyahoga County government would provide public money - in addition to the sin tax dollars voters approved last year - to overhaul the publicly-owned Quicken Loans Arena, Northeast Ohio Media Group has learned.

 

But the Cavs have not yet presented an official proposal or disclosed the degree of public support they may seek, according to Tim Offtermatt, chairman of the board for the Gateway Economic Development Corporation, the non-profit landlord for The Q and Progressive Field.

 

"Right now this is the glimmer in somebody's eye, and if it becomes a real proposal, then we'll start thinking about it," Offtermatt said. "But right now, from Gateway's perspective, we're not even thinking about it."

 

MORE:

http://www.cleveland.com/cuyahoga-county/index.ssf/2015/01/cleveland_cavaliers_seeking_cuyahoga_county_taxpayer_support_for_planned_overhaul_of_quicken_loans_a.html#incart_river

Adam Silver says arena needs upgrades before it can host All-Star game again.

http://www.fearthesword.com/2015/5/24/8653319/adam-silver-upgrades-to-quicken-loans-arena-must-happen-before

 

In my mind it's a complete overhaul of the concourses and then repair/replacement of mechanical and structural systems as needed, and that's it.

 

 

 

 

Adam Silver says arena needs upgrades before it can host All-Star game again.

http://www.fearthesword.com/2015/5/24/8653319/adam-silver-upgrades-to-quicken-loans-arena-must-happen-before

 

In my mind it's a complete overhaul of the concourses and then repair/replacement of mechanical and structural systems as needed, and that's it.

I thought the Q looked great especially given its age. It has newer seats, new team shop, new screen, new locker rooms etc. guess I was wrong. This just makes a case for that potential overhaul.

I thought the Q looked great especially given its age. It has newer seats, new team shop, new screen, new locker rooms etc. guess I was wrong. This just makes a case for that potential overhaul.

 

You aren't wrong. There is nothing wrong with the Q. It could easily host an All Star game as-is. This is just posturing to get the city to fork over more money for renovations

^^ I basically agree except on the general concourse areas and I assume there are behind the scenes things that will need to be taken care of after 20+ years. Zavac (the author) and most of the commenters from that article I think are nutbars. Especially the ones mentioning exterior updates or building a new arena.

My roof is nearly 20 years old. I know I'm not a billion dollar business and all, but I wonder if the taxpayers might be interested in paying to replace that roof for me........

^ Except the taxpayers own the Q so I would expect the public to pay for major repairs like that. Some of the rumoured changes are absurd.

 

Terms like "functionally obsolete" are just code for we want something new and shiny.

The Q is the 9th oldest arena in the NBA?  Am I the only person shocked by that?  It's only 20 years old!

20 years old, or 105 years old like my home; every structure needs work/maintenance/upgrades done at some point. 20 years old is not old in a general sense, but for a building of any kind no matter how "young" or "old", there comes a time for upgrades or repairs.

 

I see the problem as one in which the city/Gateway should have been putting aside money for the time at which upgrades are needed. Do we as home owners not have to do the same thing for when projects are needed on our own homes either by choice, or necessity. Did the city/Gateway put money aside on an ongoing basis for this time? Probably not, and so now Gateway/Cavs are looking to the public to pay, and we should as said in another post, we the tax payers own the structure.

 

 

 

 

The Q is the 9th oldest arena in the NBA?  Am I the only person shocked by that?  It's only 20 years old!

 

In the last two decades municipalities have been buckling to demands of their pro sport franchises to build new stadiums.

 

Atlanta is building a new domed football stadium and baseball stadium while the old ones are only around 20 years old. Its pretty ridiculous.

 

As Jacobs field and The Q turned 20 last year I began to wonder when we'd start to hear talk about new stadiums. I guess here we are.

My roof is nearly 20 years old. I know I'm not a billion dollar business and all, but I wonder if the taxpayers might be interested in paying to replace that roof for me........

If your home is directly responsible for bringing in millions in tax revenue for the city then yes....

The Q is the 9th oldest arena in the NBA?  Am I the only person shocked by that?  It's only 20 years old!

 

In the last two decades municipalities have been buckling to demands of their pro sport franchises to build new stadiums.

 

Atlanta is building a new domed football stadium and baseball stadium while the old ones are only around 20 years old. Its pretty ridiculous.

 

As Jacobs field and The Q turned 20 last year I began to wonder when we'd start to hear talk about new stadiums. I guess here we are.

I think if they do get the money for the renovations, massive exterior renovations such as giving the concrete structure a glass exterior, mechanical fixes, and essentially making the building larger (increasing the footprint) for $140 million isn't (that) terrible. The new Orlando magic arena, which is 18,000 seats costs $330 million. I know I'm comparing apples to oranges essentially, but what I'm saying is if they do go through with this I'd rather only have a $70 million dollar tab (50-50 split) than that huge $330-$400 million dollar tab. I will say though even though I still like the Q a lot, I do wish the Q had more glass and was more transparent there is too much concrete for my taste.

The Q is the 9th oldest arena in the NBA?  Am I the only person shocked by that?  It's only 20 years old!

 

In the last two decades municipalities have been buckling to demands of their pro sport franchises to build new stadiums.

 

Atlanta is building a new domed football stadium and baseball stadium while the old ones are only around 20 years old. Its pretty ridiculous.

 

As Jacobs field and The Q turned 20 last year I began to wonder when we'd start to hear talk about new stadiums. I guess here we are.

I think if they do get the money for the renovations, massive exterior renovations such as giving the concrete structure a glass exterior, mechanical fixes, and essentially making the building larger (increasing the footprint) for $140 million isn't (that) terrible. The new Orlando magic arena, which is 18,000 seats costs $330 million. I know I'm comparing apples to oranges essentially, but what I'm saying is if they do go through with this I'd rather only have a $70 million dollar tab (50-50 split) than that huge $330-$400 million dollar tab. I will say though even though I still like the Q a lot, I do wish the Q had more glass and was more transparent there is too much concrete for my taste.

 

The entire Gateway complex was too insular in design.

The Q is the 9th oldest arena in the NBA?  Am I the only person shocked by that?  It's only 20 years old!

 

In the last two decades municipalities have been buckling to demands of their pro sport franchises to build new stadiums.

 

Atlanta is building a new domed football stadium and baseball stadium while the old ones are only around 20 years old. Its pretty ridiculous.

 

As Jacobs field and The Q turned 20 last year I began to wonder when we'd start to hear talk about new stadiums. I guess here we are.

I think if they do get the money for the renovations, massive exterior renovations such as giving the concrete structure a glass exterior, mechanical fixes, and essentially making the building larger (increasing the footprint) for $140 million isn't (that) terrible. The new Orlando magic arena, which is 18,000 seats costs $330 million. I know I'm comparing apples to oranges essentially, but what I'm saying is if they do go through with this I'd rather only have a $70 million dollar tab (50-50 split) than that huge $330-$400 million dollar tab. I will say though even though I still like the Q a lot, I do wish the Q had more glass and was more transparent there is too much concrete for my taste.

 

The "new" Orlando Magic Building, the Amway Center, is already 5 years old (and construction started 7 years ago). 

The Q is the 9th oldest arena in the NBA?  Am I the only person shocked by that?  It's only 20 years old!

 

In the last two decades municipalities have been buckling to demands of their pro sport franchises to build new stadiums.

 

Atlanta is building a new domed football stadium and baseball stadium while the old ones are only around 20 years old. Its pretty ridiculous.

 

As Jacobs field and The Q turned 20 last year I began to wonder when we'd start to hear talk about new stadiums. I guess here we are.

 

You also have to look at why those cities are building.  Atlanta is building one stadium for the Falcons.  The area of the old stadium is connected to the convention center which will be expanded.  if only CLE had this issue. 

 

Cumberland will be the new home of the Braves.  Think building a new Indians stadium in Litchfield.  The Braves move is similar to Eaton's move from downtown to Beachwood.  It makes no sense, but segregates it's self from the city as they claim their core fans are north of midtown Atlanta and their is no public transportation to the area.

 

I don't think the Indians or Browns would move out of downtown nor would the Cavs do that again.

The Q is the 9th oldest arena in the NBA?  Am I the only person shocked by that?  It's only 20 years old!

 

In the last two decades municipalities have been buckling to demands of their pro sport franchises to build new stadiums.

 

Atlanta is building a new domed football stadium and baseball stadium while the old ones are only around 20 years old. Its pretty ridiculous.

 

As Jacobs field and The Q turned 20 last year I began to wonder when we'd start to hear talk about new stadiums. I guess here we are.

I think if they do get the money for the renovations, massive exterior renovations such as giving the concrete structure a glass exterior, mechanical fixes, and essentially making the building larger (increasing the footprint) for $140 million isn't (that) terrible. The new Orlando magic arena, which is 18,000 seats costs $330 million. I know I'm comparing apples to oranges essentially, but what I'm saying is if they do go through with this I'd rather only have a $70 million dollar tab (50-50 split) than that huge $330-$400 million dollar tab. I will say though even though I still like the Q a lot, I do wish the Q had more glass and was more transparent there is too much concrete for my taste.

 

The entire Gateway complex was too insular in design.

HUH?  Can you further explain?

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2016/12/quicken_loans_arena_home_of_le.html#incart_2box

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2016/12/the_q_transformation.html#16

Quicken Loans Arena, home of LeBron and the Cavs, to get $140 million makeover

 

 

on December 13, 2016 at 2:15 PM, updated December 13, 2016 at 2:17 PM

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The Cleveland Cavaliers today announced a striking $140 million upgrade to the Q Arena that dramatically alter the facility's appearance and, the team says, would make the 22-year-old arena competitive by creating more space for dining, bars and public gathering.

 

 

 

 

Looks amazing!

I liked it until I saw the aerial shot. AWFUL. They're adding this glassy box to a little more than 1/4 of the exterior. Looks very klutzy and doesn't mesh well.

 

I think $140 million for reskinning (I realize there's interior work, too) the Q will be a tough sell to John Q. Public. But I think $140m for THIS will be even tougher.

 

Side note: the glass looks cool from side angles, but the straight-on views, say from E 4th St., are really bland to me.

 

Where did you see the aerial?

Found it here:

 

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2016/12/the_q_transformation.html#8

A ton of info on the official Q site: theqtransformation.com

Cavs' arena proposal offers taxpayers some hope and plenty to debate: Mark Naymik

 

By Mark Naymik, cleveland.com

Email the author | Follow on Twitter

on December 13, 2016 at 2:17 PM, updated December 13, 2016 at 3:01 PM

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio - Set aside the glossy Photoshop images of the reimagined Quicken Loans Arena that depict glass-enclosed gathering spaces with modern inner curves and new amenities.

 

As impressive as the preliminary designs appear, they are not as important as the financial details that will be at the heart of yet another debate over public financing of sports facilities -- this town's third in three years.

 

We debated the issue in 2013, when the Browns asked the city of Cleveland for $30 million over 15 years to make repairs and upgrades to the city-owned FirstEnergy Stadium, a request backed by Cleveland City Council. In 2014, voters supported a plan to extend for 20 years a countywide tax on the sales of alcohol and tobacco to keep up our three publicly owned sports facilities, including the Q.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/naymik/index.ssf/2016/12/cavs_arena_proposal_offers_tax.html#incart_river_home

They released some still models.  Are they going to open up the northwest facing entrance with glass, so you can see the court from the outside? Or is this one of those slices

This is certainly a cutaway.  None of the other renderings indicate such a drastic change.

 

Model for the transformation of the Quicken Loans Arena in Cleveland

^ Wow that guitar track is....something.....

The Q is in fine shape and I feel like this isn't really necessary (especially with that price tag). But I guess I'll try to focus on the positives right now. I like the design and the way it will interact with Huron. And most importantly: they're removing the elevated pedestrian walkway over Huron!

I like it, and have no problem spending my tax dollars on something that invests in a successful facility while positively impacting a significant portion of downtown.

Call him a businessman, but there are several good points being made about The W that can't about first energy stadium and Gilbert's team hit all of them. This is a facility that can continue to draw events that bring in mass media/travelers. It does need some upkeep to be competitive with the newer generation of arenas.  I always hear the argument about disinvestment in other things and I can reason with that, but basic business principles...spend money to make money.  If you are going to draw more concerts and more events, those hotel rooms, meals, etc touch a lot of lives

Call him a businessman, but there are several good points being made about The Q that can't about first energy stadium and Gilbert's team hit all of them. This is a facility that can continue to draw events that bring in mass media/travelers. It does need some upkeep to be competitive with the newer generation of arenas.  I always hear the argument about disinvestment in other things and I can reason with that, but basic business principles...spend money to make money.  If you are going to draw more concerts and more events, those hotel rooms, meals, etc touch a lot of lives

Cleveland has to compete if it wants to remain relevant. The Q hosts around 300 event nights per year, well worth the money. If this doesn't happen now we would be talking a new arena in about five years.  It's not just used for sports, this is where this community gathers for just about everything. Its well worth the investment and I would go even farther with the price tag and the upgrade, but this should give us another 15 to 20 years of use.

Also excited to see SHOP involved as I predicted last winter in the Gateway thread. Now if only nucleus comes through soon that is going to be a very busy corner.

I would hope it gives us more than 20 years of use. To me, I consider this to be similar to a storefront renovation to keep the building looking fresh and to keep customers (shows and audiences) coming back.

The design is nice, but at that price tag, the entire arena should be getting a new facade and not just one or two sides.

^I am kinda disappointed that the Ontario side wont be getting a face lift. That is the most visible side after all. I hope they do a good job of blending the new side in with the old, otherwise that side may end up looking odd

Maybe the Huron side is intended to interface with nuCLEus? Or the Ferrari condo tower??  :-P

Would have been cool to include a redo of the parking garage. All the garages seem to be in pretty decent shape though so it would be hard to justify. I see what they are doing with the Little Caesars complex in Detroit and I'm jealous.

^That's an idea!  The garages take up an area greater than the Nucleus project.  My guess is we'll have to wait a couple more decades for the garages to become functionally obsolete, but maybe by that time surface lots will be scarce and that land will be valuable enough to warrant all that demo and rebuilding.

My roof is nearly 20 years old. I know I'm not a billion dollar business and all, but I wonder if the taxpayers might be interested in paying to replace that roof for me........

If your home is directly responsible for bringing in millions in tax revenue for the city then yes....

 

This was discussed (by one side) extensively during the Sin Tax renewal but subsidies for sports teams, arenas, billionaires, etc... are at best a wash financially for the community.

 

https://econjwatch.org/articles/do-economists-reach-a-conclusion-on-subsidies-for-sports-franchises-stadiums-and-mega-events

First of all, I love the plans. Love, love, love it. It's needed to keep us current and relevant. But second of all, this whole debate over the arenas and sports teams and if they're a wash is just nonsense. First of all, the Quicken Loans Arena is home to more than just the 41 Cavs home games (and playoff games). It's more than the home of the Monsters and the Gladiators. It is THE place for major concerts by major acts and other events. No Q? No RNC. No Q? Major acts don't even SNIFF this city. And it matters. I can say personally that in my field I've had a business deal that was directly related to the fact that Lebron was in this city. IT MATTERS. Ask those downtown businesses if they would rather not have the Q or our 3 professional sports teams. Ask the city leaders if they would rather not have that brinks truck of money that gets dumped on the city when we have major events or nationally televised games. Sometimes some people in this city are so short sighted. If we tried to pay for the publicity we got from the Cavs and from the RNC we wouldn't have been able to afford it. The bottom line is: Do you want to be relevant or not? Are we a major city or not? It's real simple. Either we are a major city or we're not. And if we are, then act like it. People have more of an argument concerning the (stupidly) non-domed FirstEnergy "Factory of Sadness" Stadium because of how little it's used outside of Browns games, but the Q has 300 events every year. It is our Madison Square Garden. Do people want that to go away? I don't. I have no interest in being in a minor league city. Sorry, I don't. No offense but I'm not interested in being in Akron or Toledo. And part of the quality of life in this city and its attractiveness IS being able to go see the Cavs or the Indians or the (sigh) Browns and even things like Playhouse Square and the Cleveland Orchestra. Those are the things that help make you relevant as a real city.

First of all, I love the plans. Love, love, love it. It's needed to keep us current and relevant. But second of all, this whole debate over the arenas and sports teams and if they're a wash is just nonsense. First of all, the Quicken Loans Arena is home to more than just the 41 Cavs home games (and playoff games). It's more than the home of the Monsters and the Gladiators. It is THE place for major concerts by major acts and other events. No Q? No RNC. No Q? Major acts don't even SNIFF this city. And it matters. I can say personally that in my field I've had a business deal that was directly related to the fact that Lebron was in this city. IT MATTERS. Ask those downtown businesses if they would rather not have the Q or our 3 professional sports teams. Ask the city leaders if they would rather not have that brinks truck of money that gets dumped on the city when we have major events or nationally televised games. Sometimes some people in this city are so short sighted. If we tried to pay for the publicity we got from the Cavs and from the RNC we wouldn't have been able to afford it. The bottom line is: Do you want to be relevant or not? Are we a major city or not? It's real simple. Either we are a major city or we're not. And if we are, then act like it. People have more of an argument concerning the (stupidly) non-domed FirstEnergy "Factory of Sadness" Stadium because of how little it's used outside of Browns games, but the Q has 300 events every year. It is our Madison Square Garden. Do people want that to go away? I don't. I have no interest in being in a minor league city. Sorry, I don't. No offense but I'm not interested in being in Akron or Toledo. And part of the quality of life in this city and its attractiveness IS being able to go see the Cavs or the Indians or the (sigh) Browns and even things like Playhouse Square and the Cleveland Orchestra. Those are the things that help make you relevant as a real city.

 

We can have an arena and we can have professional sports teams.  You can root for them or not root for them, you can love Cleveland and everything about it, you can love Cleveland and still be critical of it.  None of that changes the fact that the numbers on these subsidies just do not pencil out as an economic win.  And you can have a great, desirable city without huge professional sports giveaways.  Columbus doesn't have major league football, baseball, or basketball.  Portland only has a major league basketball team and people seem to love that city and be flocking to it.  I don't think Austin, Texas has any major league sports and it seems to be enjoying the same popularity and cool factor.  Maybe it's because they are spending hundreds of millions of dollars to make their city better instead of lining the pockets of billionaires.   

 

 

First of all, I love the plans. Love, love, love it. It's needed to keep us current and relevant. But second of all, this whole debate over the arenas and sports teams and if they're a wash is just nonsense. First of all, the Quicken Loans Arena is home to more than just the 41 Cavs home games (and playoff games). It's more than the home of the Monsters and the Gladiators. It is THE place for major concerts by major acts and other events. No Q? No RNC. No Q? Major acts don't even SNIFF this city. And it matters. I can say personally that in my field I've had a business deal that was directly related to the fact that Lebron was in this city. IT MATTERS. Ask those downtown businesses if they would rather not have the Q or our 3 professional sports teams. Ask the city leaders if they would rather not have that brinks truck of money that gets dumped on the city when we have major events or nationally televised games. Sometimes some people in this city are so short sighted. If we tried to pay for the publicity we got from the Cavs and from the RNC we wouldn't have been able to afford it. The bottom line is: Do you want to be relevant or not? Are we a major city or not? It's real simple. Either we are a major city or we're not. And if we are, then act like it. People have more of an argument concerning the (stupidly) non-domed FirstEnergy "Factory of Sadness" Stadium because of how little it's used outside of Browns games, but the Q has 300 events every year. It is our Madison Square Garden. Do people want that to go away? I don't. I have no interest in being in a minor league city. Sorry, I don't. No offense but I'm not interested in being in Akron or Toledo. And part of the quality of life in this city and its attractiveness IS being able to go see the Cavs or the Indians or the (sigh) Browns and even things like Playhouse Square and the Cleveland Orchestra. Those are the things that help make you relevant as a real city.

 

We can have an arena and we can have professional sports teams.  You can root for them or not root for them, you can love Cleveland and everything about it, you can love Cleveland and still be critical of it.  None of that changes the fact that the numbers on these subsidies just do not pencil out as an economic win.  And you can have a great, desirable city without huge professional sports giveaways.  Columbus doesn't have major league football, baseball, or basketball.  Portland only has a major league basketball team and people seem to love that city and be flocking to it.  I don't think Austin, Texas has any major league sports and it seems to be enjoying the same popularity and cool factor.  Maybe it's because they are spending hundreds of millions of dollars to make their city better instead of lining the pockets of billionaires.   

 

 

 

Columbus and Austin are college towns.  Portland has an extremely high quality of life.  The culture out there is different.  People dont care if they have sports teams, and frankly their urban cores are so dense, they dont need them to sustain businesses, etc.  Unfortunately, Cleveland has its population that loves Cleveland (me included)...but we dont tout alot to the outsider.  Bad weather, slow job growth, etc.  You have to spend money to make money. If you stripped our sports teams, you have to get the people of NE Ohio to change the way they think if they are going to view a city like Northern Oregon people do.  People in Oregon live there because of the lush green space, access to the Pacific, mild climate, etc.  It would take decades to change that paradigm here, and sadly if we lost our sports teams, i think we may lose people as well.  Not saying it cannot rebound in the distant future, but based off of our leadership the past 5 decades, not confident in them to turn it around in the next 5.  To be honest, the reason for Clevelands hot run here has been because of its people...not its leaders. 

 

Richey Piipernan's quotes in Lee Jenkins Sports Illustrated article about Lebron is very interesting.  Cleveland's boomerang rate increased to well over the national average since Lebron has returned.  His return was  symbolic of what i think alot of native youth wanted to do, but needed a nudge from a superstar so they can say "hey, its cool to return to Cleveland".  And without the Cavs, you dont have Lebron.  And damn straight the Cavs are going to use the phrase "guaranteed to stay through 2034".  they have a ton of leverage, why not use it.  The Browns left and while i frankly do not care if we have a football team or not (we dont anyway), our region had a meltdown.

 

This investment is OK because of the amount of lives the events at the Q touch.  The RNC, the concerts, the Finals.  Thats hotel money, thats meal money, thats uber money, thats rental car money, RTA money.  You can argue First Energy Stadium all day, but this arena is critical to our downtown sustainability.  We are not Portland or Austin.  Columbus downtown frankly is in the same boat. not sure thats a good comparison

"To be honest, the reason for Clevelands hot run here has been because of its people...not its leaders." 

 

BelievelandD1, no truer words have ever been spoken here!

 

Portland was a blue-collar saw mill town until the 1970s. Cities and cultures change over time, causing a change in how we use our public dollars to shape the city we want. We can use it to create infrastructure that supports a dense urban center or we can use it for other things, including subsidizing professional sports.

 

 

Columbus and Austin are college towns.  Portland has an extremely high quality of life.  The culture out there is different.  People dont care if they have sports teams, and frankly their urban cores are so dense, they dont need them to sustain businesses, etc.  Unfortunately, Cleveland has its population that loves Cleveland (me included)...but we dont tout alot to the outsider.  Bad weather, slow job growth, etc.  You have to spend money to make money. If you stripped our sports teams, you have to get the people of NE Ohio to change the way they think if they are going to view a city like Northern Oregon people do.  People in Oregon live there because of the lush green space, access to the Pacific, mild climate, etc.  It would take decades to change that paradigm here, and sadly if we lost our sports teams, i think we may lose people as well.  Not saying it cannot rebound in the distant future, but based off of our leadership the past 5 decades, not confident in them to turn it around in the next 5.  To be honest, the reason for Clevelands hot run here has been because of its people...not its leaders. 

 

Richey Piipernan's quotes in Lee Jenkins Sports Illustrated article about Lebron is very interesting.  Cleveland's boomerang rate increased to well over the national average since Lebron has returned.  His return was  symbolic of what i think alot of native youth wanted to do, but needed a nudge from a superstar so they can say "hey, its cool to return to Cleveland".  And without the Cavs, you dont have Lebron.  And damn straight the Cavs are going to use the phrase "guaranteed to stay through 2034".  they have a ton of leverage, why not use it.  The Browns left and while i frankly do not care if we have a football team or not (we dont anyway), our region had a meltdown.

 

This investment is OK because of the amount of lives the events at the Q touch.  The RNC, the concerts, the Finals.  Thats hotel money, thats meal money, thats uber money, thats rental car money, RTA money.  You can argue First Energy Stadium all day, but this arena is critical to our downtown sustainability.  We are not Portland or Austin.  Columbus downtown frankly is in the same boat. not sure thats a good comparison

 

EXACTLY! Thank you! Without our amenities, Cleveland doesn't become Portland. It becomes Akron. And no offense to any Akronites but I don't want to be Akron. I want to be in a major city that looks and acts like a major city and has major city stuff. Sports (and the arts) are the things that make a major city major. And you're absolutely right that we would lose people without our sports teams, particularly people who either work FOR those teams or the people who have ancillary work because of the existence of those teams. Without our teams, you would lose at least: both ESPN Cleveland and The Fan and most of its employees, at least half of the restaurants around both arenas who basically survive off of sports and event traffic and couldn't sustain itself otherwise, and you would lose relevance because the sports teams (particularly when they are good) get you on the national spotlight. Hell, even the Browns are guaranteed at least one national game a year as long as TNF exists. Getting the national spotlight matters, especially for a city like ours which isn't in the best climate, isn't a college town, and isn't in a state flush with oil money and two other major markets. Cleveland is the biggest media market in the state and the 18th largest media market in the country. Austin is 45th. Columbus is 32. There's only 4 cities in the top 20 that don't have all 3 of the "big 3" sports teams. We're a major market. We SHOULD have more teams than the 32nd or 45th largest media markets

I'm torn on this one.  On principle I think it's money wasted on misplaced priorities.  But in practical terms, it's probably not a bad move.  And unlike the Public Square debacle, at least this investment doesn't entail destroying services.

^^I like your passion but disagree a great deal. Not only have economists routinely asserted that cities lose much more than they gain with these tax subsidized stadiums and awful deals (for example, Cleveland owns the Browns stadium but can barely use it off-season for events due to its nonsensical leasing agreement), but I don't see people moving here, or anywhere, due to sports. They move to places due to jobs, families, and possibly weather. Did people really boomerang to Cleveland due to Lebron? There are always outliers, but do you really think his decision had any real impact on the majority of new residents (or people who reconsidered moving)?

 

I don't think sports really correlate with major cities any more. Look at Vegas, Austin, Albuquerque, Omaha...the list goes on and on. Meanwhile Detroit, Baltimore, Buffalo, and other dramatically struggling cities have multiple teams. So what. Maybe sports provide a necessary distraction in those depressed areas, but it's a minor footnote at the end of the fiscal year.

 

Sure it's nice to have sports, at least when your team is winning, but when you break down the costs and who's paying for these stadiums - mostly lower income people who themselves can't afford to watch the very teams their money is supporting - there is something terribly wrong with the system. And as for the argument that restaurants make bank, well, you can't really run an economy on a few dozen restaurants at the end of the day. And when your team is 0 and 13 and no one is showing up except the tax collector, then you really don't see restaurants generating any kind of revenue anyhow.

 

If I could, I would flush that godforsaken Browns stadium and its despicable owner (you too, DEE), since its endless negative publicity and morale has taken an enormous toll on fans and those associated with Cleveland. In hindsight the city would have been far better without the team, as that property could have been used for something special that could generate direct revenue. Instead, the city spent almost $300 million for that piece of s-hit with an additional $30 million in "renovations" for the next 15 years. It's a colossal waste of resources and other people's money, certainly not Haslem's -- and with the the Q, certainly not Gilbert's. Corporate welfare at its most obvious.

 

Wait, didn't one of the articles mention that Gilbert / The Cavs are footing half the bill? Saying, "certainly not Gilbert's" in that case is a little disingenuous.

Wait, didn't one of the articles mention that Gilbert / The Cavs are footing half the bill? Saying, "certainly not Gilbert's" in that case is a little disingenuous.

 

Gilbert is also making other investments in the city--not just the Cavs and the arena.    I wish Haslem would move a few hundred Pilot employees to downtown Cleveland....

The Gateway Project in its inception promised 30,000 new jobs - nope. The budget went up to $400 million. No accountability.

 

Then there's this nonsense from last month: "The Cavs want $70 million more in public money to renovate the Q"

 

http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/2016/11/the-cavs-want-70-million-more-in-public-money-to-renovate-the-q/

 

Meanwhile the potholes in streets get bigger and bigger but just try to get funds allocated for repairs.

 

It's a fundamentally broken system that should be challenged and criticized at every opportunity, and every dime Gilbert doesn't put into his building is ten cents that people in Central and Slavic Village do.

Wait, didn't one of the articles mention that Gilbert / The Cavs are footing half the bill? Saying, "certainly not Gilbert's" in that case is a little disingenuous.

 

The number being thrown out there is $140 million.  That's the principal on the bond.  After the interest, it's going to be somewhere around $280 million.  And as for Gilbert's "half", he's not writing a check to the county for $70 million.  From what I understand, his $70 million is the expected rent between now and 2034.  So they are not paying anything above and beyond what they would pay anyway to have games in the arena.