Cleveland should continue to settle then? 

 

Absolutely not!  But this deal was negotiated in good faith with Gilbert.  He has learned that small forces of loudmouths can sink it.  So how willing do you think he'll be the next time around to make the same offer?

 

Those small forces that went to Detroit to protest were not doing themselves any good.  This is all political.  The people who think that this takes away from investment in the neighborhoods don't get it either.  Look at what Dan Gilbert has done for Detroit.  He can certainly do more for Cleveland.  Investing in some basketball courts and recreational centers?  Not even close.  I think Cleveland deserves better deals.  I am not against this renovation, but Cleveland has been left out to dry too many times.

If it's true that city's tax contribution to the Q renovation would have come almost entirely from admissions tax revenues, this deal was probably more defensible than others, even if Dan Gilbert is already massively subsidized by the general public through the sin tax. In that light, it's a shame this is the one that would have gone to the voters, rather than that godawful First Energy modernization being funded out of the city's general budget.

If you honestly believe NuCLEus has nothing to do with the Q, then we're not even in the same stratosphere of logic MissinOhio[/member] .

 

Live Entertainment, who runs Louisville Live probably committed as a tenant because NuCLEus was in the suburbs... The hotel is being pitched aggressively because it is miles from the arena... got it.

 

Exactly.  This puts doubts in lenders, tenants and everything else connected to nuCLEus.  Some people can't see the bigger picture.

 

Lenders have been doubting NuCLEus from the beginning.  Where have you people been?  You're grasping for something that isn't even there.

 

This puts even MORE doubts in their eyes.  This isn't a grasp, it's a fact.

 

No, it's a grasp.  Benesch committed well before a Q reno was brought up.  So was Live!.  A renovated Q was just another benefit, and because it doesn't look so rosy, everything else is doomed.  When you guys decide to leave your stratosphere of logic and come back down to Earth, we can have a discussion.  Otherwise, NuCLEus is all on Stark.  Yeah, that makes you feel so much better doesn't it?

Cleveland should continue to settle then? 

 

Absolutely not!  But this deal was negotiated in good faith with Gilbert.  He has learned that small forces of loudmouths can sink it.  So how willing do you think he'll be the next time around to make the same offer?

 

Those small forces that went to Detroit to protest were not doing themselves any good.  This is all political.  The people who think that this takes away from investment in the neighborhoods don't get it either.  Look at what Dan Gilbert has done for Detroit.  He can certainly do more for Cleveland.  Investing in some basketball courts and recreational centers?  Not even close.  I think Cleveland deserves better deals.  I am not against this renovation, but Cleveland has been left out to dry too many times.

 

In fairness Gilbert is from Detroit so it makes sense he invests more there. You want to tie the Cavs to investing in Cleveland more, OK I won't argue that. But then we should also ask those folks sitting up on the Heights plateau and beyond looking down on Cleveland to invest more in the city like Gilbert is in Detroit instead of sitting on their hands in Gates Mills or Shaker.

Cleveland should continue to settle then? 

 

Absolutely not!  But this deal was negotiated in good faith with Gilbert.  He has learned that small forces of loudmouths can sink it.  So how willing do you think he'll be the next time around to make the same offer?

 

Those small forces that went to Detroit to protest were not doing themselves any good.  This is all political.  The people who think that this takes away from investment in the neighborhoods don't get it either.  Look at what Dan Gilbert has done for Detroit.  He can certainly do more for Cleveland.  Investing in some basketball courts and recreational centers?  Not even close.  I think Cleveland deserves better deals.  I am not against this renovation, but Cleveland has been left out to dry too many times.

 

In fairness Gilbert is from Detroit so it makes sense he invests more there. You want to tie the Cavs to investing in Cleveland more OK I won't argue that. But then we should also ask those folks sitting up on the Heights plateau and beyond looking down on Cleveland to invest more in the city like Gilbert is in Detroit instead of sitting on their hands in Gates Mills or Shaker.

 

Oh I most certainly agree. I even said I understand Dan Gilbert's passion for investing in his home city earlier.  But they're not asking for money to renovate the Q.  Other projects, we need to start getting on them about.  This one is about the arena.

Look how far the comments go back: November of 2014. http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2014/11/stark_enterprises_seeks_early.html

Stark Enterprises seeks early approvals for 'nuCLEus,' large mixed-use project near The Q

 

Yet three years later, THIS is what supposedly kills Nucleus?? My goodness Stark is a patient man -- with a pretty impressive track record of failed downtown projects.

I can think of an obvious connection between nuCLEus and the Q. Synergy. A renovated Q brings people to the neighborhood some of which will live in the apartments, stay in the hotel and use the restaurants/bars in the development. Conversely an aging Q becomes less and less a draw directly impacting nuCLEus' bottom line.

 

Then there is the not so obvious but more important conversations taking place behind the scenes when developers/politicians/business leaders talk about the difficulty of putting together financing for ANY project in this town.

 

Cleveland - one step forward, two steps back. Lived here all my life. I've seen it time and again.

Look how far the comments go back: November of 2014. http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2014/11/stark_enterprises_seeks_early.html

Stark Enterprises seeks early approvals for 'nuCLEus,' large mixed-use project near The Q

 

Yet three years later, THIS is what supposedly kills Nucleus?? My goodness Stark is a patient man -- with a pretty impressive track record of failed downtown projects.

 

No one is saying it's going to kill nuCLEus.  However, it does hurt it's chances of happening.  Get it?

If you honestly believe NuCLEus has nothing to do with the Q, then we're not even in the same stratosphere of logic MissinOhio[/member] .

 

Live Entertainment, who runs Louisville Live probably committed as a tenant because NuCLEus was in the suburbs... The hotel is being pitched aggressively because it is miles from the arena... got it.

 

Exactly.  This puts doubts in lenders, tenants and everything else connected to nuCLEus.  Some people can't see the bigger picture.

 

Lenders have been doubting NuCLEus from the beginning.  Where have you people been?  You're grasping for something that isn't even there.

 

This puts even MORE doubts in their eyes.  This isn't a grasp, it's a fact.

 

No, it's a grasp.  Benesch committed well before a Q reno was brought up.  So was Live!.  A renovated Q was just another benefit, and because it doesn't look so rosy, everything else is doomed.  When you guys decide to leave your stratosphere of logic and come back down to Earth, we can have a discussion.  Otherwise, NuCLEus is all on Stark.  Yeah, that makes you feel so much better doesn't it?

 

When someone lets their emotions control their thought process w/out having even a basic understanding of the economics at play, you get responses like this.  And no, it doesn't make me "feel" one way or another.

 

Are you angry then?  You can't tell emotion over an internet forum. 

 

You do not know me, so don't tell me what I do and don't understand.  The economics at play for NuCLEus were in line well before any Q renovation started.  Keep trying.

 

I don't need to know you personally to know you don't understand how financing and economics work.  Your posts prove it.

 

You're post have proven nothing on how this renovated Q will help NuCLEus.  You don't know me, so again, don't tell me what I know and don't know.  You're still failing to inform us of how the financing will magically make NuCLEus happen.  The major commitments were there. Stark is the one at the helm here. 

Look how far the comments go back: November of 2014. http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2014/11/stark_enterprises_seeks_early.html

Stark Enterprises seeks early approvals for 'nuCLEus,' large mixed-use project near The Q

 

Yet three years later, THIS is what supposedly kills Nucleus?? My goodness Stark is a patient man -- with a pretty impressive track record of failed downtown projects.

 

No one is saying it's going to kill nuCLEus.  However, it does hurt it's chances of happening.  Get it?

 

How?  Obviously you don't get it.  Stark has the say here, not a renovated Q.

If you honestly believe NuCLEus has nothing to do with the Q, then we're not even in the same stratosphere of logic MissinOhio[/member] .

 

Live Entertainment, who runs Louisville Live probably committed as a tenant because NuCLEus was in the suburbs... The hotel is being pitched aggressively because it is miles from the arena... got it.

 

Exactly.  This puts doubts in lenders, tenants and everything else connected to nuCLEus.  Some people can't see the bigger picture.

 

Lenders have been doubting NuCLEus from the beginning.  Where have you people been?  You're grasping for something that isn't even there.

 

This puts even MORE doubts in their eyes.  This isn't a grasp, it's a fact.

 

No, it's a grasp.  Benesch committed well before a Q reno was brought up.  So was Live!.  A renovated Q was just another benefit, and because it doesn't look so rosy, everything else is doomed.  When you guys decide to leave your stratosphere of logic and come back down to Earth, we can have a discussion.  Otherwise, NuCLEus is all on Stark.  Yeah, that makes you feel so much better doesn't it?

 

When someone lets their emotions control their thought process w/out having even a basic understanding of the economics at play, you get responses like this.  And no, it doesn't make me "feel" one way or another.

 

Are you angry then?  You can't tell emotion over an internet forum. 

 

You do not know me, so don't tell me what I do and don't understand.  The economics at play for NuCLEus were in line well before any Q renovation started.  Keep trying.

 

I don't need to know you personally to know you don't understand how financing and economics work.  Your posts prove it.

 

You're post have proven nothing on how this renovated Q will help NuCLEus.  You don't know me, so again, don't tell me what I know and don't know.  You're still failing to inform us of how the financing will magically make NuCLEus happen.  The major commitments were there. Stark is the one at the helm here. 

 

Lenders aren't as likely to take a risk on this project w/out knowing the future of the Q and the millions of people who visit it each year.

 

Again, the lenders have been skeptical from the very beginning on NuCLEus.  Even when others committed to this project, Stark still couldn't get things moving.  Just because a renovated arena next door may or may not happen, doesn't mean this skyscraper will or won't be built.

^ Right, and I don't think people commit with the idea that an NBA franchise will let their arena age; in most cities, it's par for the course. You're grasping at straws here with only one of the litany of items I listed.

If you honestly believe NuCLEus has nothing to do with the Q, then we're not even in the same stratosphere of logic MissinOhio[/member] .

 

Live Entertainment, who runs Louisville Live probably committed as a tenant because NuCLEus was in the suburbs... The hotel is being pitched aggressively because it is miles from the arena... got it.

 

Exactly.  This puts doubts in lenders, tenants and everything else connected to nuCLEus.  Some people can't see the bigger picture.

 

Lenders have been doubting NuCLEus from the beginning.  Where have you people been?  You're grasping for something that isn't even there.

 

This puts even MORE doubts in their eyes.  This isn't a grasp, it's a fact.

 

No, it's a grasp.  Benesch committed well before a Q reno was brought up.  So was Live!.  A renovated Q was just another benefit, and because it doesn't look so rosy, everything else is doomed.  When you guys decide to leave your stratosphere of logic and come back down to Earth, we can have a discussion.  Otherwise, NuCLEus is all on Stark.  Yeah, that makes you feel so much better doesn't it?

 

When someone lets their emotions control their thought process w/out having even a basic understanding of the economics at play, you get responses like this.  And no, it doesn't make me "feel" one way or another.

 

Are you angry then?  You can't tell emotion over an internet forum. 

 

You do not know me, so don't tell me what I do and don't understand.  The economics at play for NuCLEus were in line well before any Q renovation started.  Keep trying.

 

I don't need to know you personally to know you don't understand how financing and economics work.  Your posts prove it.

 

You're post have proven nothing on how this renovated Q will help NuCLEus.  You don't know me, so again, don't tell me what I know and don't know.  You're still failing to inform us of how the financing will magically make NuCLEus happen.  The major commitments were there. Stark is the one at the helm here. 

 

Lenders aren't as likely to take a risk on this project w/out knowing the future of the Q and the millions of people who visit it each year.

 

Again, the lenders have been skeptical from the very beginning on NuCLEus.  Even when others committed to this project, Stark still couldn't get things moving.  Just because a renovated arena next door may or may not happen, doesn't mean this skyscraper will or won't be built.

 

You're right, it doesn't mean nuCLEus will not happen, but it does hurt it's chances. 

Let's all be civil here.

 

Indeed, these big-project public funding issues are hot-button; look at the nuCLEus thread.  I see both sides of the argument, but feel bad that Gilbert pulled out-- I wish something could have been worked out.  We know that Gilbert is mercurial and could try and move the team, or sell it to someone would would... Cleveland's hold card is JACK casino -- it would be horrible for biz if he did that, so I don't really think he will...

 

It's just one more piece of bad news for the Cavs since losing the Finals last spring... sadly, the negative hits just keep coming.

Knock it off with the personal stuff. Keep on topic and civil, folks.

Tell you what:  I have quite a few union activists among my Facebook friends, and the Teamsters and building trades are absolutely furious with AFSCME, SEIU, et al.  Way stronger and more publicly than their immigration debate.

 

 

For something that is supposedly over and done with, the Cavs press release was very detailed. It reiterated all its benefits, the support it had from public officials and how important The Q is to the region. Why? Was it just the Cavs swan song? Their last chance to tell the opposition how short sighted they were?

 

Then at the end, in bold letters, it stated, "The Cavaliers organization will no longer participate in the partnership formed for The Q Transformation project and the need for a referendum no longer exists." Again, why state this? They wouldn't be trying to help the opposition by saving them the work of getting something on the ballot. That statement indicates the Cavs want the opposition to drop the referendum. But if that happens (and why wouldn't it), then what?

 

What's the deadline to get an issue on the November ballot?

^Amen. Gilberts success in cleveland is directly tied to Lebron. Nothing else. He has created a casino that I'm sure has ruined plenty of lives, while employing people, yes but hardly a needle mover. He has spent for the Cavs, but his ornery little man syndrome looks has caused consistent drama year in and year out.  He isn't that great

 

Hasn't ruined the many people I know who feed their families by working for a Dan Gilbert company, including that casino. The arrogance, the ignorance and just a complete lack of giving a damn for the people who take care of their families with these jobs is just amazing.

Tell you what:  I have quite a few union activists among my Facebook friends, and the Teamsters and building trades are absolutely furious with AFSCME, SEIU, et al.  Way stronger and more publicly than their immigration debate.

 

Please tell them to speak publicly about this. Their voices don't get heard. I have a huge problem with the SEIU, many of their members live outside of the city, continuing to push things that harm the city short and long term. We need people like your friends to speak up LOUDLY. Press action, etc. If they need help getting their word out, PM me

There are already discussions about how to get this done without public input.  They'll find a way to get this done.  I was a college student at Pitt when the voters in Pittsburgh voted no on the financing package for Heinz Field and PNC Park.  I interned in Mayor Tom Murphy's office at the time and he worked with the state of PA to find an innovative way to finance the project despite the no vote.  I imagine similar discussions are happening now to get very creative.  I suspect nothing will be announced until after the election, but no mayor wants to be the one who killed the city's momentum.  Delayed, yes, but I doubt this project is totally dead. 

There are already discussions about how to get this done without public input.  They'll find a way to get this done.  I was a college student at Pitt when the voters in Pittsburgh voted no on the financing package for Heinz Field and PNC Park.  I interned in Mayor Tom Murphy's office at the time and he worked with the state of PA to find an innovative way to finance the project despite the no vote.  I imagine similar discussions are happening now to get very creative.  I suspect nothing will be announced until after the election, but no mayor wants to be the one who killed the city's momentum.  Delayed, yes, but I doubt this project is totally dead. 

 

MidwestChamp[/member] Did you intend this to be in the Quicken Loans thread?

$70 million is 1% of Gilbert's net worth.

Cavs owner doesn't want $70m in subsidies after all, if it means letting the public vote:  https://t.co/kNO61gTMNV

I'm not sure the processes are the same in both places, but developers in San Diego had a ballot initiative to build a soccer stadium. All the polls suggested it would pass.

 

Then City Council got some heat from competing developers for supporting the measure, so they simply voted not to provide money to fund the referendum. Take that, democracy!

 

Could Cleveland City Council have done the same?

^Amen. Gilberts success in cleveland is directly tied to Lebron. Nothing else. He has created a casino that I'm sure has ruined plenty of lives, while employing people, yes but hardly a needle mover. He has spent for the Cavs, but his ornery little man syndrome looks has caused consistent drama year in and year out.  He isn't that great

 

Hasn't ruined the many people I know who feed their families by working for a Dan Gilbert company, including that casino. The arrogance, the ignorance and just a complete lack of giving a damn for the people who take care of their families with these jobs is just amazing.

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^Amen. Gilberts success in cleveland is directly tied to Lebron. Nothing else. He has created a casino that I'm sure has ruined plenty of lives, while employing people, yes but hardly a needle mover. He has spent for the Cavs, but his ornery little man syndrome looks has caused consistent drama year in and year out.  He isn't that great

 

Hasn't ruined the many people I know who feed their families by working for a Dan Gilbert company, including that casino. The arrogance, the ignorance and just a complete lack of giving a damn for the people who take care of their families with these jobs is just amazing.

 

and the arrogance, ignorance and lack of giving a damn about taxing a top 3 poorest city in the country so Mr. Gilbert can make more money is also amazing. Dan Gilbert is, and always will be about numero uno

I'm just a little confused here. So, Gilbert said that his reason for pulling out of the deal is because the vote would delay the project too much, which would apparently make construction costs too expensive. Does this mean that there's absolutely no way that another restructured version of the deal is even a possibility? He's making it sound like we were on an incredibly strict timeline in order to make this project ever happen. Or is he just talking out of his ass?

I'm just a little confused here. So, Gilbert said that his reason for pulling out of the deal is because the vote would delay the project too much, which would apparently make construction costs too expensive. Does this mean that there's absolutely no way that another restructured version of the deal is even a possibility? He's making it sound like we were on an incredibly strict timeline in order to make this project ever happen. Or is he just talking out of his a$$?

 

If you're trying to do a project while maintaining three team schedules and trying to book outside events, all to meet an NBA All Star game deadline, well then yes the timeline is crucial. 

^ Ahh, okay, I wasn't accounting for the NBA All Star game. So, in theory, it's still entirely possible for a new deal structure to happen in the future (even the near future). It just obviously wouldn't be done in time for the All Star game.

^ Ahh, okay, I wasn't accounting for the NBA All Star game. So, in theory, it's still entirely possible for a new deal structure to happen in the future (even the near future). It just obviously wouldn't be done in time for the All Star game.

 

It would still be possible to do AND meet the All Star Game deadline--but as Gilbert has pointed out this would drive the costs up considerably.  Since his deal included the Cavs covering any budget overruns, obviously he wanted no part of that.

Is that the last All-Star game that the NBA will hold?

Is that the last All-Star game that the NBA will hold?

Hahahahahaha

I still don't get why Gilbert is afraid of a vote?  It would pass.  This is a hissy fit

Is that the last All-Star game that the NBA will hold?

 

Of course not, but since they schedule them 4-5 years in advance, CLE would be out of the rotation until the next chance comes around. 

 

IMO we would also have a great shot at the DNC here in the next 1-2 election cycles as well.

Yes.  Def the wrong thread. 

^Amen. Gilberts success in cleveland is directly tied to Lebron. Nothing else. He has created a casino that I'm sure has ruined plenty of lives, while employing people, yes but hardly a needle mover. He has spent for the Cavs, but his ornery little man syndrome looks has caused consistent drama year in and year out.  He isn't that great

 

Hasn't ruined the many people I know who feed their families by working for a Dan Gilbert company, including that casino. The arrogance, the ignorance and just a complete lack of giving a damn for the people who take care of their families with these jobs is just amazing.

[/qu

^Amen. Gilberts success in cleveland is directly tied to Lebron. Nothing else. He has created a casino that I'm sure has ruined plenty of lives, while employing people, yes but hardly a needle mover. He has spent for the Cavs, but his ornery little man syndrome looks has caused consistent drama year in and year out.  He isn't that great

 

Hasn't ruined the many people I know who feed their families by working for a Dan Gilbert company, including that casino. The arrogance, the ignorance and just a complete lack of giving a damn for the people who take care of their families with these jobs is just amazing.

 

and the arrogance, ignorance and lack of giving a damn about taxing a top 3 poorest city in the country so Mr. Gilbert can make more money is also amazing. Dan Gilbert is, and always will be about numero uno

 

So you're basically admitting that you don't care about the people whose livelihoods depend on his companies. Good to know. I'll make sure to let the many folks I know that work for him that, many of whom are the same people in the "third poorest city" that you claim to care about.

Found this tidbit interesting and frustrating when put in perspective in the article.

 

FTFA: ""The citizens of the 34 Cleveland neighborhoods are smart enough to know what is in their best interest and what will advance the city," Johnson said.

 

Perhaps.

 

It can also be noted, however, that citizens of Cleveland aren't particularly avid about using suffrage to advance their interests. Fewer than 30 percent of eligible voters bothered to cast a ballot in the last mayoral election."

 

 

http://www.cleveland.com/morris/index.ssf/2017/08/cleveland_cavaliers_are_done_i.html

^It's a product of having mayoral elections off-cycle, which is probably intentional. Cleveland isn't unique in this regard. Turnout for NYC's mayoral elections are similarly abysmal.

 

FTFA: ""The citizens of the 34 Cleveland neighborhoods are smart enough to know what is in their best interest and what will advance the city," Johnson said.

 

 

I'd like think this is true but the city has lost roughly 500,000 people over about 65 years.

 

FTFA: ""The citizens of the 34 Cleveland neighborhoods are smart enough to know what is in their best interest and what will advance the city," Johnson said.

 

 

I'd like think this is true but the city has lost roughly 500,000 people over about 65 years.

 

Well  yeah, he's obviously pandering for votes.  Thats another YUGE issue in the US, the low information voter. 

 

 

^No doubt... Just look who's living at 1600 PA ave...

High School & Rec Center courts will not be rehabbed. http://www.news5cleveland.com/sports/basketball/cavaliers/cavs-will-not-rehab-gym-courts-at-rec-centers-after-withdrawing-from-the-q-transformation-project

Soon there will be a reply in Comic Sans.

Selfish. Gilbert is still a billionaire with a basketball team that brings in millions of dollars. They withdrew from the project voluntarily, it wasn't voted down. The project dying voluntarily doesn't mean you have to take it out on the kids who would benefit greatly from the rehabilitations. It's selfish and a way to tell Cleveland and the county "this is what you get for not jumping at the deal when we told you to." Get out of here with this strong arm tactic. You can't tell me otherwise.

^this is correct. Gilberts colors have shown the last couple years since winning it all. That was a bravado item for himself. Now he's back to being a slimeball

So u want to screw over the deal AND still get the goodies? Now THATS selfish lol

Selfish. Gilbert is still a billionaire with a basketball team that brings in millions of dollars. They withdrew from the project voluntarily, it wasn't voted down. The project dying voluntarily doesn't mean you have to take it out on the kids who would benefit greatly from the rehabilitations. It's selfish and a way to tell Cleveland and the county "this is what you get for not jumping at the deal when we told you to." Get out of here with this strong arm tactic. You can't tell me otherwise.

 

You guys are blaming the wrong person/group.  You should blame the idiots from the Greater Cleveland Congregation that created this mess by gathering signatures to put it on the ballot.  And they are gaining nothing from what they did other than killing the Q transformation.  They will not see a dime going to the neighborhoods.

 

And while I am on my soapbox, the law that permits adding referendums and initiatives to the ballot needs to be repealed.  It is at the point where radical groups are abusing it.  This is going to happen over and over again.  I guarantee it will happen if the Nucleus Tiff goes through.

Silly rumors put to rest. http://www.cleveland19.com/story/36252002/nucleus-where-does-clevelands-most-ambitious-downtown-project-stand

well, well... news reports out seem to indicate the GCC has pulled their petition, said the deal needs to happen, and they may have something to announce...  The plot thickens....

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2017/08/anti-gcc_rally.html#incart_m-rpt-1

 

From the article:

Greater Cleveland Congregations for months pushed the city to match the $88 million in tax dollars slated for the deal with spending in the city's neighborhoods.

 

This is why I hated GCC's opposition to the renovation. They aren't opposed to public funding for team owners, as long as they get their cut.

Dan Gilbert: "Let's put any silly rumors to rest: I will never move the Cleveland Cavaliers out of Cleveland. Period. And that's unconditional!!!"

 

Hmm. Sure. Talk about coincidental timing.

 

And how did we do with his prior promises:

 

"Phase two is definitely happening."

 

“I PERSONALLY GUARANTEE THAT THE CLEVELAND CAVALIERS WILL WIN AN NBA CHAMPIONSHIP BEFORE THE SELF-TITLED FORMER ‘KING’ WINS ONE.”