To the extent that Rep. Macia Fudge's comments ripping the GCC helped, I congratulate her. It was the smartest thing I've ever heard her say. Maybe I need to pay more attention.

I have mixed feelings about Gilbert...but last time I checked he's brought more jobs to town than the other two owners combined.

Glad this is moving forward.

I was  supportive of this overall. As I said when the deal came up for the Browns, I'm not in support of public subsidies for stadiums in general, but once you've made the decision, as a city, region, to subsidize and build one of these things, you have an obligation to keep it up, for the benefit of the community. That being said, I never saw a long term cost benefit analysis of the city's $70MM investment. I know that they were going to finance with bonds, so over the course of the payback, the total cost was going to be $240MM. That's a lot of money that could be used elsewhere. What were we getting in return? The construction jobs were temporary, the improvements to gyms, etc. is a nice gesture, but ultimately meaningless from a business development perspective. What would we have earned in additional revenue (hotel taxes, sales taxes, payroll taxes) as well as overall perception, etc. that makes $240MM worthwhile?

 

If such an analysis was done, I wasn't aware of it, and the city did a very poor job of promoting their findings (presuming they were favorable). The reality is that these public subsidies are becoming more and more negatively perceived and you're going to get more pushback on them, so if public representatives think it's beneficial to move ahead with something like this,  it is incumbent upon them to prove it to us. There is a number that works here. Nobody took the time to tell us why it was $70MM

well, well... news reports out seem to indicate the GCC has pulled their petition, said the deal needs to happen, and they may have something to announce...  The plot thickens....

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2017/08/anti-gcc_rally.html#incart_m-rpt-1

 

 

It's amazing what broad-based investment can get accomplished in an election year.

Nick Castele‏ NickCastele[/member]  47m47 minutes ago

More

Here is the statement from Greater Cleveland Congregations about withdrawing Q deal referendum petitions.

 

Petitions Withdrawn. http://fox8.com/2017/08/31/deal-to-renovate-quicken-loans-arena-could-be-back-on/

Deal reached that may save Quicken Loans Arena transformation

 

By Karen Farkas, cleveland.com kfarkasCleveland[/member].com

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio - A deal has been reached Thursday to potentially save the $140 million Quicken Loans Arena transformation.

 

Greater Cleveland Congregations announced that it would withdraw petitions challenging the arena deal that were to have led to a referendum vote. In a press release, GCC said Cuyahoga County is committed to two mental health and substance abuse crisis centers.

 

A letter from Cuyahoga County Executive Armond Budish to representatives of United Pastors in Mission does not specify the county will build anything new.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/cuyahoga-county/index.ssf/2017/08/deal_reached_that_may_save_quicken_loans_arena_transformation.html#incart_m-rpt-1

The deal "may save" the Q renovations.  As a part of the original deal, Gilbert agreed to bankroll anything above the $140 million budget due to delays, etc.  He may not be so apt to agree to that now that the timeline has been delayed since June.  My guess is the county and city will bend over backwards to get this done, so this will end up costing more than it would have.  Thanks GCC. 

Jeff Johnson's group opposes potential deal. http://www.cleveland19.com/story/36264698/cleveland-progressive-group-opposes-quicken-loans-project-reboot

Tell you what:  I have quite a few union activists among my Facebook friends, and the Teamsters and building trades are absolutely furious with AFSCME, SEIU, et al.  Way stronger and more publicly than their immigration debate.

 

Please tell them to speak publicly about this. Their voices don't get heard. I have a huge problem with the SEIU, many of their members live outside of the city, continuing to push things that harm the city short and long term. We need people like your friends to speak up LOUDLY. Press action, etc. If they need help getting their word out, PM me

 

These aren't people you can tell to speak (or not speak) unless they want to LOL.

 

The SEIU President said not long ago, I believe it was in Cleveland, that immigration was an important issue to them because they have members that are undocumented.

 

In other words, illegal to hire in the US.  They're a mess.

The deal "may save" the Q renovations.  As a part of the original deal, Gilbert agreed to bankroll anything above the $140 million budget due to delays, etc.  He may not be so apt to agree to that now that the timeline has been delayed since June.  My guess is the county and city will bend over backwards to get this done, so this will end up costing more than it would have.  Thanks GCC. 

 

He's likely to "go for David Putney".  Can't entirely blame him.

Jeff Johnson's group opposes potential deal. http://www.cleveland19.com/story/36264698/cleveland-progressive-group-opposes-quicken-loans-project-reboot

 

What a surprise this is (being sarcastic)!  Jeff Johnson is an idiot and better never see the mayor's office.

 

If he got his way, there would be no Q transformation and no money for the neighborhoods.  How does this help anyone? 

Cavs Respond. http://www.wkyc.com/news/local/cleveland/cleveland-cavaliers-ceo-responds-to-gcc-dropping-petitions-against-q-renovations/469783324

Game on! Cavs announce Quicken Loans transformation will go forward

 

The Cleveland Cavaliers announced Wednesday that the $140 million transformation of Quicken Loans Arena will go forward.

 

The announcement occurred a little more than a week after Cavs owner Dan Gilbert said he was withdrawing from the project.

 

The project was revived on Aug. 31 after opponents to Cleveland providing funding for the project withdrew referendum petitions that would have required a vote on the issue.

 

The Cavs said they would reconsider the decision to pull out of the deal to renovate Quicken Loans Arena now that referendum petitions have been withdrawn.

 

Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson and Cuyahoga County Executive Armond Budish issued statements of support.

 

Jackson said: "Throughout the process, my support for this agreement never wavered," Jackson said. My efforts have always been to create vibrant neighborhoods and a vibrant downtown. I've said it before -this deal is one of the best I've seen because it provides opportunities for all of Cleveland. Those who demonized this process were shortsighted, and I encourage them to ask themselves what they can do for the future of this city. Strong leadership requires doing the right thing, not just saying what you think people want to hear.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/cuyahoga-county/index.ssf/2017/09/game_on_cavs_announce_quicken_loans_transformation_will_go_forward.html

Jackson said: "Throughout the process, my support for this agreement never wavered," Jackson said. My efforts have always been to create vibrant neighborhoods and a vibrant downtown. I've said it before -this deal is one of the best I've seen because it provides opportunities for all of Cleveland. Those who demonized this process were shortsighted, and I encourage them to ask themselves what they can do for the future of this city. Strong leadership requires doing the right thing, not just saying what you think people want to hear.

 

Strong leadership?  I think it was more the GCC getting nervous that they were going to cause the Cavaliers to move.  That was caused by Gilbert calling their bluff on the deal, while Jackson stood there and shrugged his shoulders (per his norm). 

I'll ask again because I'm genuinely curious and don't know how to easily research this myself: how does the admissions tax, that this renovation will use to cover costs, currently get used?

 

This really feels like the Cavs (aka sleezeball Gilbert) took advantage of a weak city. For all the talk here about the large market size of NEO, and the "big city" that is Cleveland, an awful lot of insecurity floated fast to the top when the Cavs announced their withdrawal from the renovation partnership. If the NEO market is so large and you've got the face of the NBA as your homegrown superstar, why the hell is there so much concern over the fate of the Cavs? Or is that concern really just drummed up to get the masses to support a vanity project out of fear?

 

Furthermore, to walk out on plans to renovate public courts and rec centers across the region because Cleveland didn't bend over fast enough should tell you all everything you need to know about who you're dealing with here. Gilbert is using Cleveland, and he doesn't give a shit about the city. Renovation or no renovation, the Cavs should be fixing up public courts and rec centers because they are part of the Cleveland community. They literally exist because the people in the region support them, so of COURSE giving back should be an expectation. The Reds fix up ball fields all over greater Cincinnati every year, and they even built a state of the art urban baseball academy in a poor neighborhood in Cincy to increase AA involvement in the sport. Oh, AND they pay for much of their stadium maintenance themselves.

The Q is used 300 nights a year...helped Cleveland land the RNC. The renovation is not just about the Cavs, it's about a 23 year old arena that needs to be updated to stay competitive. I don't think anybody was worried about the Cavs leaving. The Reds may be pulling their weight, but the Paul Brown Stadium may be the worst public financing deal in the country. I read somewhere by the time Bengals lease is up, the county will have spent over a billion dollars to keep the Bengals in town.

Moving teams out of Cleveland was a joke premise in 1989's "Major League" and it worked because nobody found it implausible.  Then a few years later the Browns really did move away, citing facility problems.  So we're skittish about this issue.  Yes, we know who we're dealing with and what he's all about.  That aspect is beyond our control.

I'll ask again because I'm genuinely curious and don't know how to easily research this myself: how does the admissions tax, that this renovation will use to cover costs, currently get used?

 

This really feels like the Cavs (aka sleezeball Gilbert) took advantage of a weak city. For all the talk here about the large market size of NEO, and the "big city" that is Cleveland, an awful lot of insecurity floated fast to the top when the Cavs announced their withdrawal from the renovation partnership. If the NEO market is so large and you've got the face of the NBA as your homegrown superstar, why the hell is there so much concern over the fate of the Cavs? Or is that concern really just drummed up to get the masses to support a vanity project out of fear?

 

Furthermore, to walk out on plans to renovate public courts and rec centers across the region because Cleveland didn't bend over fast enough should tell you all everything you need to know about who you're dealing with here. Gilbert is using Cleveland, and he doesn't give a S**t about the city. Renovation or no renovation, the Cavs should be fixing up public courts and rec centers because they are part of the Cleveland community. They literally exist because the people in the region support them, so of COURSE giving back should be an expectation. The Reds fix up ball fields all over greater Cincinnati every year, and they even built a state of the art urban baseball academy in a poor neighborhood in Cincy to increase AA involvement in the sport. Oh, AND they pay for much of their stadium maintenance themselves.

 

According to a quick googling = "Currently, the city of Cleveland receives, in its general fund, 3/8 of that tax revenue for Cavs games and 6/8 of the revenue for other events. The balance — 5/8 for Cavs games, 2/8 for everything else — goes to pay down debt on Gateway bonds . . . Beginning in 2023, when the Gateway bonds are (hopefully) paid off, and until 2034, the portion that now goes to Gateway debt service will then be applied to the arena renovation debt service."

 

I think you're trying to make a false dichotomy there. Cleveland can both be the 19th largest media market in the country and vulnerable to losing the Cavs to another city in either a larger or smaller media market if that city is willing to shell out for a shiny new stadium. There are probably only a handful of cities large enough to truly be safe from that kind of behavior on the part of owners.

I'll ask again because I'm genuinely curious and don't know how to easily research this myself: how does the admissions tax, that this renovation will use to cover costs, currently get used?

 

This really feels like the Cavs (aka sleezeball Gilbert) took advantage of a weak city. For all the talk here about the large market size of NEO, and the "big city" that is Cleveland, an awful lot of insecurity floated fast to the top when the Cavs announced their withdrawal from the renovation partnership. If the NEO market is so large and you've got the face of the NBA as your homegrown superstar, why the hell is there so much concern over the fate of the Cavs? Or is that concern really just drummed up to get the masses to support a vanity project out of fear?

 

Furthermore, to walk out on plans to renovate public courts and rec centers across the region because Cleveland didn't bend over fast enough should tell you all everything you need to know about who you're dealing with here. Gilbert is using Cleveland, and he doesn't give a S**t about the city. Renovation or no renovation, the Cavs should be fixing up public courts and rec centers because they are part of the Cleveland community. They literally exist because the people in the region support them, so of COURSE giving back should be an expectation. The Reds fix up ball fields all over greater Cincinnati every year, and they even built a state of the art urban baseball academy in a poor neighborhood in Cincy to increase AA involvement in the sport. Oh, AND they pay for much of their stadium maintenance themselves.

 

The Cavs have given back to the community:

 

http://www.nba.com/cavaliers/community/cyf

 

http://www.cleveland.com/cleveland/blog/index.ssf/2017/06/cleveland_cavaliers_donate_875000_from_finals_watch_parties_to_habitat_for_humanity.html

 

 

The Q is used 300 nights a year...helped Cleveland land the RNC. The renovation is not just about the Cavs, it's about a 23 year old arena that needs to be updated to stay competitive. I don't think anybody was worried about the Cavs leaving. The Reds may be pulling their weight, but the Paul Brown Stadium may be the worst public financing deal in the country. I read somewhere by the time Bengals lease is up, the county will have spent over a billion dollars to keep the Bengals in town.

 

Funny how edale forgot to mention anything about the Bengals deal with the city.  It sounds like they fleeced the hell out of a "weak" city. 

 

Talk about insecure:

 

Hamilton County faces a $30 million budget shortfall and has had to cancel a planned property tax rollback in order to service their debt.

 

Yet, the fear of losing a sports team (and the votes of sports fans) have caused local officials to blink time and time again.

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/worst-stadium-deal-cincinnati-2011-7

I don't know much about the Bengals deal but I think it was created after the Browns left Cleveland.  Perhaps the powers in Cincinnati feared that the Bengals would suffer the same fate.

I think this deal is fair. St. Louis and Minneapolis just renovated their 20 year old arenas with similar deals.

Cavs recommitt to transformation project. http://www.news5cleveland.com/sports/basketball/cavaliers/the-quicken-loans-arena-transformation-project-is-back-on-city-says

The Q is used 300 nights a year...helped Cleveland land the RNC. The renovation is not just about the Cavs, it's about a 23 year old arena that needs to be updated to stay competitive. I don't think anybody was worried about the Cavs leaving. The Reds may be pulling their weight, but the Paul Brown Stadium may be the worst public financing deal in the country. I read somewhere by the time Bengals lease is up, the county will have spent over a billion dollars to keep the Bengals in town.

 

Funny how edale forgot to mention anything about the Bengals deal with the city.  It sounds like they fleeced the hell out of a "weak" city. 

 

Talk about insecure:

 

Hamilton County faces a $30 million budget shortfall and has had to cancel a planned property tax rollback in order to service their debt.

 

Yet, the fear of losing a sports team (and the votes of sports fans) have caused local officials to blink time and time again.

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/worst-stadium-deal-cincinnati-2011-7

 

Yes, they did. After the Browns left Cleveland for greener pastures in Baltimore, the threat of The Bengals leaving got very real, and voters approved something that should have never been approved. At least the people got to vote on it, though. The stadium deal also paved the way for the redevelopment of the riverfront. So if you want to look at the thousands of new residents, hotel, bars and restaurants, and GE's 1,200 employees they brought to their new building at The Banks (jobs that are new to the region, not shuffled from elsewhere) the scales look a little more balanced. There is no mistaking that The Bengals deal with Hamilton County is one of the worst professional sports deals in the country, though. Is that something worth emulating? However, I brought up the Reds to specifically talk about community investment.

 

Cleveland posters on this site are always talking about how Cleveland is the big city this and 6th city that. NEO is 4 million people! The media market is massive! It's just odd to see the city act in a way that is so contrary to the attitude exhibited here. Cincinnati never makes these claims, and its media market is separated from Dayton's, so it does not have that benefit that Cle gets from having Akron in its media market. There has always been an acknowledgement that Cincy is one of the smaller major league markets, which probably helps explain why the county voters passed such a ridiculous package for Paul Brown Stadium.

 

 

According to a quick googling = "Currently, the city of Cleveland receives, in its general fund, 3/8 of that tax revenue for Cavs games and 6/8 of the revenue for other events. The balance — 5/8 for Cavs games, 2/8 for everything else — goes to pay down debt on Gateway bonds . . . Beginning in 2023, when the Gateway bonds are (hopefully) paid off, and until 2034, the portion that now goes to Gateway debt service will then be applied to the arena renovation debt service."

 

I think you're trying to make a false dichotomy there. Cleveland can both be the 19th largest media market in the country and vulnerable to losing the Cavs to another city in either a larger or smaller media market if that city is willing to shell out for a shiny new stadium. There are probably only a handful of cities large enough to truly be safe from that kind of behavior on the part of owners.

 

Thank you for answering my question. So the general fund will take a bit of a hit to pay for this? That is not inherently problematic, but it is worth noting, if true.

 

The weird part of this whole discussion is that funding was never refused, nor was the partnership between the City and Cavs. There was simply an initiative to bring the plan to a vote, and then Gilbert pitched a fit and walked out. A team that brought the first championship to the city in decades should not be one that you have to worry about leaving if an arena renovation plan is simply put to a vote. That's a bully tactic.

Edale, I'm not sure what you are getting at. Gilbert withdrew his offer, some more negotiation happened behind the scenes, the referendum was pulled, and now they have an agreement. NOBODY was worried about the Cavs were leaving. It wasn't an issue. From what I read, it's essentially the same deal that was proposed before Gilbert pulled out. The only urgency you see is that Cleveland is in the running for the 2019/2020 NBA All-Star game and the tight construction window.

 

 

My main beef with the renovation is: why only extend the lease for seven years?  A $140m renovation should add more than 7 years to the life of the arena.  Was there a give and take on this number?  Did any elected official push for a longer lease?  I haven't heard anything about that.  Otherwise, isn't Gilbert just going to ask for more money in 2034 when the lease is up?

For all the Gilbert bashers, it's obvious the Cavs' withdrawal was a tactic to get a deal done... and obviously it worked.

How many people who signed those petitions are going to be angry enough to sign another set of petitions, or maybe vote out some of the elected officials who fought them in court to not accept the petition?

The Q is used 300 nights a year...helped Cleveland land the RNC. The renovation is not just about the Cavs, it's about a 23 year old arena that needs to be updated to stay competitive. I don't think anybody was worried about the Cavs leaving. The Reds may be pulling their weight, but the Paul Brown Stadium may be the worst public financing deal in the country. I read somewhere by the time Bengals lease is up, the county will have spent over a billion dollars to keep the Bengals in town.

 

Funny how edale forgot to mention anything about the Bengals deal with the city.  It sounds like they fleeced the hell out of a "weak" city. 

 

Talk about insecure:

 

Hamilton County faces a $30 million budget shortfall and has had to cancel a planned property tax rollback in order to service their debt.

 

Yet, the fear of losing a sports team (and the votes of sports fans) have caused local officials to blink time and time again.

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/worst-stadium-deal-cincinnati-2011-7

 

Yes, they did. After the Browns left Cleveland for greener pastures in Baltimore, the threat of The Bengals leaving got very real, and voters approved something that should have never been approved. At least the people got to vote on it, though. The stadium deal also paved the way for the redevelopment of the riverfront. So if you want to look at the thousands of new residents, hotel, bars and restaurants, and GE's 1,200 employees they brought to their new building at The Banks (jobs that are new to the region, not shuffled from elsewhere) the scales look a little more balanced. There is no mistaking that The Bengals deal with Hamilton County is one of the worst professional sports deals in the country, though. Is that something worth emulating? However, I brought up the Reds to specifically talk about community investment.

 

Cleveland posters on this site are always talking about how Cleveland is the big city this and 6th city that. NEO is 4 million people! The media market is massive! It's just odd to see the city act in a way that is so contrary to the attitude exhibited here. Cincinnati never makes these claims, and its media market is separated from Dayton's, so it does not have that benefit that Cle gets from having Akron in its media market. There has always been an acknowledgement that Cincy is one of the smaller major league markets, which probably helps explain why the county voters passed such a ridiculous package for Paul Brown Stadium.

 

 

According to a quick googling = "Currently, the city of Cleveland receives, in its general fund, 3/8 of that tax revenue for Cavs games and 6/8 of the revenue for other events. The balance — 5/8 for Cavs games, 2/8 for everything else — goes to pay down debt on Gateway bonds . . . Beginning in 2023, when the Gateway bonds are (hopefully) paid off, and until 2034, the portion that now goes to Gateway debt service will then be applied to the arena renovation debt service."

 

I think you're trying to make a false dichotomy there. Cleveland can both be the 19th largest media market in the country and vulnerable to losing the Cavs to another city in either a larger or smaller media market if that city is willing to shell out for a shiny new stadium. There are probably only a handful of cities large enough to truly be safe from that kind of behavior on the part of owners.

 

Thank you for answering my question. So the general fund will take a bit of a hit to pay for this? That is not inherently problematic, but it is worth noting, if true.

 

The weird part of this whole discussion is that funding was never refused, nor was the partnership between the City and Cavs. There was simply an initiative to bring the plan to a vote, and then Gilbert pitched a fit and walked out. A team that brought the first championship to the city in decades should not be one that you have to worry about leaving if an arena renovation plan is simply put to a vote. That's a bully tactic.

 

This is the same tax that Mayor Jackson was willing to bankrupt the Beachland Ballroom in order to collect the tax revenue because it was so important to the city

 

      Mayor Frank Jackson did not embrace the legislation. His administration has pointed to a 2009 efficiency study that called for the city to do a better job of collecting existing taxes.

      "My position is the same," he said in an interview after the council meeting. "People owe, they should pay. We have a city to run. We can't run it on air."

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/10/cleveland_to_consider_dropping.html

 

sir2gees[/member]

 

This shouldn't be understated. Teams LEAVE cities because of things like this.

But, it got politicized as an anti 1% movement and now we've lost a massive renovation, an all-star game, taxable revenue to local business, and potentially a team.

 

Sucks.

NBA had a vested interest in seeing this go thru, as evidenced by their goading the city to get this done.

Hate to be a downer but this really doesn't bode well for Cavs staying in CLE long term.

 

The CAVS will leave when Cleveland transitions into a west coast liberal enclave. ie Never.

 

How many times do we have to re-learn this lesson before we realize that this?????? IS NOT TRUE? Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it

 

The Cavs bargaining power only increases as time goes on without a deal for a renovation. If this doesn't get done soon then the talk will turn to a new arena as the end of the lease with the city nears. A new arena would probably cost close to one billion Dollars in ten years. I hope the sides go back to the table. We can't risk losing the Cavs!

A few posters on UO isn't representative of how most people feel. I'm pretty sure city/county leaders weren't worried about the Cavs leaving while they were negotiatong this deal with Gilbert. I still don't get what your were getting at when you were talking about market size or how Clevelanders talk about being a big city.

Don't kid yourselves. Clevelanders have a big inferiority complex. It's why they try so hard to remind people that the city is/was bigger than it really is.

A few posters on UO isn't representative of how most people feel. I'm pretty sure city/county leaders weren't worried about the Cavs leaving while they were negotiatong this deal with Gilbert. I still don't get what your were getting at when you were talking about market size or how Clevelanders talk about being a big city.

 

Agreed. The Cavs were never going to leave. Any worries to that effect are/were unfounded.

I still don't get what your were getting at when you were talking about market size or how Clevelanders talk about being a big city.

 

I was getting at the old saying that actions speak louder than words. If Cleveland is this big bad city, then man up and tell the billionaire loan shark to shove it when he throws a tantrum and walks out on a very favorable partnership.

 

LA did that to the NFL. They straight up said you need us more than we need you, and the NFL blinked (ok, after 20 years lol). I know Cleveland is not LA, and the situations are not even, but I think the city has/had a lot more leverage than they think.

I can agree with that. However, the Q is a little different. It's not used only 10 times a year like Browns stadium. It's used almost every night of the year. The Cavs only use 50-60 times a year. Gilbert is a tenant and he if he wants to throw 70 million into the Q, it's in the city best interest to get the deal done. Like you said "it's a favorable" partnership for both sides.

For all the Gilbert bashers, it's obvious the Cavs' withdrawal was a tactic to get a deal done... and obviously it worked.

They were bluffing.  He wasn't.

 

Unless he's in the mood to be magnanimous, there's a David Putney in the new deal.

I can agree with that. However, the Q is a little different. It's not used only 10 times a year like Browns stadium. It's used almost every night of the year. The Cavs only use 50-60 times a year. Gilbert is a tenant and he if he wants to throw 70 million into the Q, it's in the city best interest to get the deal done. Like you said "it's a favorable" partnership for both sides.

 

Oh, I agree that having a first class arena is pretty important for a city to stay competitive. Cincinnati indeed suffers in this regard. My objection is to the way Gilbert/The Cavs handled this.

 

As much as we might not like referendums when they get in the way of things we want, I am very much opposed to censuring the public and denying the right to vote on major issues and projects. Cincinnati/Hamilton County had a very popular proposal to put a tax increase (sales I think) on the ballot to support the renovation of Music Hall and Union Terminal a few years back. There were huge petitions of support, and the business community was also firmly in support, but the Republican County Commissioners wouldn't even agree to put it on the ballot for a vote. It was infuriating to see this chokepoint on democracy and to feel like I was denied a voice. Thankfully, both structures were able to find funding to go forward with the renovations anyway, but that particular issue really stuck with me. 

I still don't get what your were getting at when you were talking about market size or how Clevelanders talk about being a big city.

 

I was getting at the old saying that actions speak louder than words. If Cleveland is this big bad city, then man up and tell the billionaire loan shark to shove it when he throws a tantrum and walks out on a very favorable partnership.

 

LA did that to the NFL. They straight up said you need us more than we need you, and the NFL blinked (ok, after 20 years lol). I know Cleveland is not LA, and the situations are not even, but I think the city has/had a lot more leverage than they think.

 

I can't tell if you have an ax to grind regarding Clevelanders thinking their city is bigger and badder than it really is or if you're upset because Clevelanders didn't think their city was big and bad enough. But anyway, I have never in my entire life heard anyone on this forum, elsewhere online, or in person say that Cleveland is in anywhere near the same league as LA when it comes to population/economic clout. The most boosterism I usually hear is people pointing out that the small population size of Cleveland (the 48th largest U.S. city?) leads many to underestimate the size of Cleveland's media market (19th), metropolitan area (32nd) and combined statistical area (15th). LA is 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, and 2nd. Cleveland can be a big bad media market (if saying it's the 19th largest is the same as saying it's big and bad?) and still have nowhere near the leverage that LA (2nd) does in its negotiations with owners. While I'm not in the camp that thinks Cleveland is destined to lose at least one of its professional sports teams in the next couple decades (I actually think we could support a 4th one if Gilbert brings us an NHL team), if we decide to completely abandon public subsidies of professional sports we do run that risk in the coming decades. Maybe it's worth it to run that risk but that doesn't mean the risk isn't there.

 

While I'm not in the camp that thinks Cleveland is destined to lose at least one of its professional sports teams in the next couple decades (I actually think we could support a 4th one if Gilbert brings us an NHL team), if we decide to completely abandon public subsidies of professional sports we do run that risk in the coming decades. Maybe it's worth it to run that risk but that doesn't mean the risk isn't there.

 

It's not up to Gilbert to support an NHL Franchise. The NHL has to first approve or grant Cleveland that sort of a status. Cleveland isn't much of a tourist market either unless you're on a rust belt tour. The NHL looks at populations, population movement, and proximities relative to other teams, whereas Cleveland lies between 3 NHL hockey teams and we only have a relatively small population of around 380,000 which is still declining quite frankly. We barely have an attendance with the Monsters already. The only reason why NHL games are packed are because A) You live in Hockeytown; B) Playoff team; C) Atmosphere is strong; D) Circumstance; and E) League.

 

As it stands the AHL is mostly aimed toward younger audiences making games family friendly, so there are more screaming children than men (who wants to hear children screaming all night). Going to an NHL game is completely different in atmosphere, way more of an interactive fan-base with content and crews that support an experience that is truly family oriented, getting everyone involved whether you're an adult or just a child.

 

Cleveland is not a Hockeytown, like I said before we are within 2 hours each direction of NHL teams. Our AHL team only won a single championship, which still isn't enough to gain faith of the fans. This is why Hershey Bears' games are always packed even as an AHL team because they reliably win championships. Even though we have many youth city/club and High school level Leagues across northeast Ohio, there isn't enough leverage with just that. The Monsters need a history which we barely have within 10 years.

 

The way I see it, I don't think Gilbert will ever be asking for an NHL franchise unless the Monsters are sold elsewhere, or moved by our Blue Jacket affiliate. As it currently stands, we don't have the fan-base "Yet" and we also do not have the population to support a new major marketing campaign. Vegas just got their new expansion over at T-mobile, with a standing and steadily rising population of around 632,000+ residents, whereas Detroit has 672,000+ with a steadily declining population. For a new NHL expansion it looks like we need a larger tourist market than we currently have, and we're going to need a lot more people, at least double our current population. We have a long way to go until we have an NHL franchise my friend. Unless something happens to the Blue Jackets, Penguins, or Red Wings, our NHL market would be exclusive to Cleveland, rather than having Central Ohio as the hub for hockey. It's like the Browns and the Bengals which are on opposite corners of Ohio, and like the Penguins and the Flyers on opposite sides of Pennsylvania. If we had Franchises on opposite ends of the state, there would be plenty more of a balance between both teams. When they go head to head it's suddenly a battle for Ohio, which is what people want to watch, as if there are two boxers on opposite corners of the ring.

 

There's much more to be done before we can support anything as complicated as a new NHL market, but don't hold your breath just yet, there were rumors last expansion that we could have gotten one. Anything can happen though.

^ I don't want to derail this thread into a discussion regarding the likelihood of an NHL team coming to Cleveland. So I'll just say that the point I was trying to make is that I believe we are a large enough market to support the 3 teams we already have and that we could honestly support a 4th team but that we're not a giant market and we can't afford to draw as hard of a line against public subsidies as a larger markets like LA might be able to assuming we want to keep those teams. I don't disagree with most of your post regarding the likelihood of us receiving an expansion team, but I think you mostly seem to be talking about whether we could support an NHL expansion bid whereas I was talking about whether our market could support an NHL team.

^ I don't want to derail this thread into a discussion regarding the likelihood of an NHL team coming to Cleveland. So I'll just say that the point I was trying to make is that I believe we are a large enough market to support the 3 teams we already have and that we could honestly support a 4th team but that we're not a giant market and we can't afford to draw as hard of a line against public subsidies as a larger markets like LA might be able to assuming we want to keep those teams. I don't disagree with most of your post regarding the likelihood of us receiving an expansion team, but I think you mostly seem to be talking about whether we could support an NHL expansion bid whereas I was talking about whether our market could support an NHL team.

 

It would come down to how we could support it, because we already have 3 sports markets. We don't near have the population to support a 4th. There just aren't enough hockey fans in Cleveland than there were 49 years ago when the Barons played at Richfield.

Although I'm glad the Q renovations came through, just not happy with our city leaders. Seriously a complete waste of time submitting petitions to derail a project and then withdrawing from your own cause.

^ Disagree on the population and fans points. I'll PM you

In regards to hockey at the Q, Cleveland has been very supportive of the Monsters as there attendance has grown steadily (at a rate of ~340 per year) to a 9,055 average last season, second only to the Hershey (Harrisburg) Bears who only lead the Monsters by an average of ~250 more people per game. 9,055 is pretty good considering the NHL lowest average attendance is 11,776 in North Carolina (there is usually a couple of NHL teams a year in the 11,000-14,000 range).

 

Cleveland won't have an NHL team though, partly because the 4 major metros within a 3 hour drive of Cleveland all have NHL teams, the only big 5 pro sports league that has teams in all those cities. That is fine though as the Monsters have found their place in one of the best hockey arenas I have ever been to (one that would be in the top 5 in capacity if it where to be in the NHL). Being in an arena like the Q (even before the new renovations) for a hockey game feels like an NHL caliber experience. 

 

In regards to history, a hockey team has played in Cleveland at some level since 1929, except between 1978 and 1992 (a period when Cleveland had an interesting fascination with indoor soccer). Hockey has an important place in Cleveland sports history, and will continue to be well supported for its level of play.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/monsters/index.ssf/2016/05/lake_erie_monsters_add_to_clev.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

^ Thanks for clearing up the Monsters fallacies.  I was going to post that about us being 2nd in AHL in attendance.

 

I go to the games and dont find the kids to be distracting.  Thats just nonsense.

In terms of sheer (MSA) population, Cleveland is already punching above it's weight when it comes to the number of major league teams it has.  We are the smallest MSA (2.1 million) with 3 major professional sports teams.  There are many markets which are larger that have only 1 major team; in terms of the Cavs we are lucky that most of those markets (Orlando, Portland, Sacramento) already of NBA teams. The others are San Diego which I don't see as an NBA city and Las Vegas which is definitely looming as a potential market.  There are plenty of 2-team cities which are larger as well, most notably Seattle.  It is absolutely not ludicrous to think the Cavs could move, and it is actually borderline ludicrous to think a 4th team (NHL) would come here, as much as I love hockey and would like to see it.  There are only a couple of markets who have a smaller Population-to-Team ratio than Cleveland: New Orleans (1.2M supporting 2 teams), Buffalo (1.1M supporting 2 teams) and Green Bay (300k supporting the Packers).  Each of those have circumstances whereby you can expand the de-facto market size for those teams, (all of Louisiana for New Orleans, Upstate New York for Buffalo, and all of Wisconsin for Green Bay).    You could try to play those games with Cleveland's market but in both baseball and football we split the remainder of the state with Cincinnati and in hockey, as mentioned above, we are not going to siphon fans from any other areas because we are surrounded by NHL cities already.  The only chance we have is if Columbus totally flopped and even then they'd move to at least 3-4 other markets (Quebec, Hamilton, Portland, maybe even Hartford) before Cleveland.

 

To keep it on topic - I'm glad this deal got done because we could easily become a 2-team city.  The towns with the lowest population-to-team ratio are all midwest rust-belty places (Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Buffalo) and there's no question that we could potentially be strained to support the 3 teams we have. A long stretch of poor performance combined with a cash-strapped (or otherwise greedy) owner could end up costing this city the Indians or the Cavs. I don't want that to happen.

 

 

^the cavs were not going to move. As snaky as Gilbert is, I actually believe his tweet when he says the cabs aren't going anywhere.  The tribe r locked in for a while and are actually the pride of the city right now.  And we know the browns wouldn't leave.  But even if a team did, people around here need to get over the mentality that we are some how a bad city for having only two teams.  Come the hell on. San Diego has 1 team, same with Portland.  Move on. Sports cannot be the identity of a city, the complement the identity of a city

In terms of sheer (MSA) population, Cleveland is already punching above it's weight when it comes to the number of major league teams it has.  We are the smallest MSA (2.1 million) with 3 major professional sports teams.  There are many markets which are larger that have only 1 major team; in terms of the Cavs we are lucky that most of those markets (Orlando, Portland, Sacramento) already of NBA teams. The others are San Diego which I don't see as an NBA city and Las Vegas which is definitely looming as a potential market.  There are plenty of 2-team cities which are larger as well, most notably Seattle.  It is absolutely not ludicrous to think the Cavs could move, and it is actually borderline ludicrous to think a 4th team (NHL) would come here, as much as I love hockey and would like to see it.  There are only a couple of markets who have a smaller Population-to-Team ratio than Cleveland: New Orleans (1.2M supporting 2 teams), Buffalo (1.1M supporting 2 teams) and Green Bay (300k supporting the Packers).  Each of those have circumstances whereby you can expand the de-facto market size for those teams, (all of Louisiana for New Orleans, Upstate New York for Buffalo, and all of Wisconsin for Green Bay).    You could try to play those games with Cleveland's market but in both baseball and football we split the remainder of the state with Cincinnati and in hockey, as mentioned above, we are not going to siphon fans from any other areas because we are surrounded by NHL cities already.  The only chance we have is if Columbus totally flopped and even then they'd move to at least 3-4 other markets (Quebec, Hamilton, Portland, maybe even Hartford) before Cleveland.

 

To keep it on topic - I'm glad this deal got done because we could easily become a 2-team city.  The towns with the lowest population-to-team ratio are all midwest rust-belty places (Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Buffalo) and there's no question that we could potentially be strained to support the 3 teams we have. A long stretch of poor performance combined with a cash-strapped (or otherwise greedy) owner could end up costing this city the Indians or the Cavs. I don't want that to happen.

 

Between geography and success, the Cavaliers have a pretty big territory. 

In terms of sheer (MSA) population, Cleveland is already punching above it's weight when it comes to the number of major league teams it has.  We are the smallest MSA (2.1 million) with 3 major professional sports teams. 

 

The stat that matters is that there are 4 million people living within 75 miles of Public Square. End of story.

My effort to avoid taking this off topic has failed so I'll join in the fun.

 

In terms of sheer (MSA) population, Cleveland is already punching above it's weight when it comes to the number of major league teams it has.  We are the smallest MSA (2.1 million) with 3 major professional sports teams. 

 

The stat that matters is that there are 4 million people living within 75 miles of Public Square. End of story.

 

This. Looking at sheer (MSA) population is not the proper way to look at it. If you look at the populations within 50 and 75 miles of city center, Cleveland holds up quite well against the other 3 major league team cities and the 2 major league team cities.

 

It is absolutely not ludicrous to think the Cavs could move, and it is actually borderline ludicrous to think a 4th team (NHL) would come here, as much as I love hockey and would like to see it. 

 

It is pretty unlikely that Cleveland would be selected for an expansion slot. It is not borderline ludicrous to think a 4th team (NHL) would come here. There are a number of struggling NHL teams with lackluster attendance and low estimated financial valuations (looking at you panthers, coyotes, and hurricanes) that could be bought by a certain billionaire and moved to Cleveland. A certain billionaire who has shown a desire to invest in Rustbelt legacy cities, has shown a belief that bringing sports teams to a city's downtown (MLS to detroit) can help that city continue its comeback, is a hockey fan but doesn't own an NHL team, is from a city which already has an NHL team, already has an arena for that team to play in (an arena undergoing a shiny new renovation), already owns the AHL team in Cleveland which has the second highest attendance in the AHL, and has publicly lamented (in an offhand manner) that he wishes he had brought an NHL team to Cleveland. Is it likely? Who knows. But it's not ludicrous. And the point I'm actually making is that Northeast Ohio would be large enough to support all four teams so long as we continue to invest in our facilities.