July 22, 20177 yr The NFL gave Cleveland an ultimatum as well, and we got one of the worst one-sided deals in the history of all sports with that stadium and its funding. The NBA can go to hell with that ultimatum nonsense; the stadium is FINE as is and does not cosmetic changes. If that means no All-Star game, then fine; I'm sure the restaurants and hotels nearby will somehow survive. If Gilbert wants renovations, then he can use his Casino Phase 2 money for that it. It certainly isn't going to what was promised repeatedly.
July 22, 20177 yr The NFL gave Cleveland an ultimatum as well, and we got one of the worst one-sided deals in the history of all sports with that stadium and its funding. The NBA can go to hell with that ultimatum nonsense; the stadium is FINE as is and does not cosmetic changes. If that means no All-Star game, then fine; I'm sure the restaurants and hotels nearby will somehow survive. If Gilbert wants renovations, then he can use his Casino Phase 2 money for that it. It certainly isn't going to what was promised repeatedly. Why do people keep saying this nonsense? "The stadium is fine as is." No the hell it isn't. It is the oldest arena in the NBA and the only one not currently slated for renovation or rebuilding. It is stuff like this that DRIVES ME NUTS. I've mentioned here before that I work in the entertainment industry in town, and I know for a fact that the current state of the arena has prevented us from getting certain events, concerts and things in the past. And the more this arena continues to age without any upgrades to it, the further behind our market goes. This has a direct impact on our ability to draw outside events. Quicken Loans Arena already gets fewer non-NBA events than most comparable arenas (particularly because we don't have an NHL team either) so we need these upgrades to keep up with the rest of the country and stay competitive. But by all means, let's hurt the city's competitiveness to stick it to the man.
July 22, 20177 yr Briefing in connection with the mandamus action in the Supreme Court is complete. I imagine there could be a ruling as early as next week. If they find in favor of the city clerk I imagine work could start before September. Really don't know what happens if the realtors win and the petitions have to be accepted for a possible vote in November, although I imagine work will not start if this happens unless somebody really gets creative.
July 22, 20177 yr Briefing in connection with the mandamus action in the Supreme Court is complete. I imagine there could be a ruling as early as next week. If they find in favor of the city clerk I imagine work could start before September. Really don't know what happens if the realtors win and the petitions have to be accepted for a possible vote in November, although I imagine work will not start if this happens unless somebody really gets creative. I'm normally not "just shut up and fall in line" guy, but business owners will be FURIOUS if these people cost the city an all star weekend
July 22, 20177 yr Why do people keep saying this nonsense? "The stadium is fine as is." No the hell it isn't. It is the oldest arena in the NBA and the only one not currently slated for renovation or rebuilding. It is stuff like this that DRIVES ME NUTS. I've mentioned here before that I work in the entertainment industry in town, and I know for a fact that the current state of the arena has prevented us from getting certain events, concerts and things in the past. And it also drives people nuts when billionaires keep asking for public money. If CLE didn't have the worst city services and worst schools then things would be different.
July 22, 20177 yr ^Yet cities across the country keep giving their sports billionaires public money despite the fact that their city services and schools are just as bad or worse. Until that stops we have to play the game or we are left behind (and still with bad schools). Any realistic ideas to stop this nationwide?
July 22, 20177 yr Actually, it seems like most cities have had enough with the whole public support for sports facilities. St. Louis and San Diego both lost their NFL teams because the cities wouldn't partially fund new stadiums. LA told the NFL they'd love to have them, but public money for the stadium was off the table. Having gone to a game at the Q last year, I think it's a pretty nice facility. Perhaps some minor interior upgrades would be nice, but it didn't seem like a horribly out of date arena. The RNC seemed to think it was acceptable, by all accounts. If the NBA is going to have a power trip and threaten to pull the All Star Game, I say let them. It's one weekend, and it probably won't even be that exciting. Cincinnati got all amped for the MLB ASG a couple years ago, and it was a pretty tame and underwhelming weekend in the city. Don't make huge financial decisions over one (albeit somewhat sexy) weekend event.
July 22, 20177 yr ^I have to disagree with your characterization of "most cities". Off the top of my head recent public assisted projects: Milwaukee Bucks arena, Atlanta Braves stadium, Texas Rangers stadium. It is just crazy what Nevada is offering the Raiders so a 1.5 billion stadium can be built. And by the way, St. Louis did not thumb their noses at the Rams. They offered more than 400 mil. in public subsidies, it just was not enough. This is not right but it happens regularly and the trend continues.
July 22, 20177 yr Look, Dan Gilbert is now a multi-billionaire and I get that he shouldn't need help... But our personal grievances with the sourcing of finance - particularly the absence of private funds - ends up hurting those that need it most. Okay, so we go on a moral crusade to ensure that Dan Gilbert doesn't take tax payer money that could be spent elsewhere. I completely get that and, to an extent, I support it. But a war on the 1% often has the bottom 10% on the front lines. It's über drivers, hotel workers, local venders, waitresses, stage hands, private security, and the like who will pay for this if the financing doesn't pass. Thereby leaving us void of a sizeable tax amount to the county. Were we morally just in our fight? Sure. But I assure, Dan Gilbert will be fine with or without the renovations; I'm not sure I can say the same for local business.
July 22, 20177 yr Well the tide is at least shifting. St. Louis voters did turn down a tax increase to fund a new soccer stadium. Have the Cavs threatened to leave? I can't imagine that happening, nor the NBA wanting that to happen. The Cavs have been the lone bright spot in the East for a while, and I can't think of another market in the eastern US that would be a good candidate for a team. Seattle definitely deserves a team, and I wish the Clippers would move there, but where would the Cavs move?
July 22, 20177 yr ^I cannot recall hearing or reading any threats to move by the Cavs ownership in connection with the renovations...from day one their pitch has been that the renovations are needed so that the arena can stay competitive with its peers, and to attract other events which might skip over Cleveland. The Cavs are splitting the 140 mil cost 50/50 with the city so they are invested to some extent.
July 22, 20177 yr It's my understanding that the city's portion of this is coming from admissions taxes from the arena itself.
July 23, 20177 yr Look, Dan Gilbert is now a multi-billionaire and I get that he shouldn't need help... But our personal grievances with the sourcing of finance - particularly the absence of private funds - ends up hurting those that need it most. Okay, so we go on a moral crusade to ensure that Dan Gilbert doesn't take tax payer money that could be spent elsewhere. I completely get that and, to an extent, I support it. But a war on the 1% often has the bottom 10% on the front lines. It's über drivers, hotel workers, local venders, waitresses, stage hands, private security, and the like who will pay for this if the financing doesn't pass. Thereby leaving us void of a sizeable tax amount to the county. Were we morally just in our fight? Sure. But I assure, Dan Gilbert will be fine with or without the renovations; I'm not sure I can say the same for local business. A voice of sanity
July 23, 20177 yr ^i just think people get so caught up in carrying over the (well founded) fight against the 1% that they end up losing sight of who has the most to lose.
July 23, 20177 yr It's my understanding that the city's portion of this is coming from admissions taxes from the arena itself. This is my understanding as well. So all these neighborhood groups and people on this very forum claiming it's coming from school taxes or the general funds and should be spent in neighborhoods are coming at this the wrong way. I also understand that Dan Gilbert has laid out a pretty hefty financial package supporting this as well, including upgrades to many community centers in the city as a bone to the councilpeople. Jerry Jones famously went to the city of Dallas with a plan to build the now AT&T stadium. Dallas big-city politicians refused the hotel bed tax to pay for it, so he worked a deal to build it in Arlington. It is now built, hosts every major event known to man, and the city of Arlington is expected to pay it off 10 years ahead of schedule in 2024. I wish we didn't live in a country where tax dollars go to pay for these things, but unfortunately we do. If Cleveland wants to maintain it's place in tour routing, major national events, political conventions, etc, we need to figure out a way to stay competitive. If this means extra taxes on the users of the arena, hotel users, etc, then so be it.
July 24, 20177 yr Why were the Indians able to pay for renovations to their facility, but not Dan Gilbert? Yes, the admissions tax would be redirected to offset what would be owed by the city, and assuming the Cavs make the playoffs each year, that tax would cover what is owed. However, two points: 1. That admissions tax (the same tax City Hall turned the screws on places like Beachland Ballroom for) would otherwise go to the general fund. 2. What are the odds the Cavs will go to the playoffs without LeBron?
July 24, 20177 yr Why were the Indians able to pay for renovations to their facility, but not Dan Gilbert? The Progressive field renovations were far less extensive, no? They basically took some seats out, put in "temporary" platforms in their place, and renovated some concession spaces (which the concessions company contributed to). 1. That admissions tax (the same tax City Hall turned the screws on places like Beachland Ballroom for) would otherwise go to the general fund. 2. What are the odds the Cavs will go to the playoffs without LeBron? The admissions tax may go to the general fund, but if the arena becomes outdated, and used less, those revenues will eventually dry up. So it's a catch 22 in some ways. I'd rather have the tax pay for the renovations, and keep the rest of the economy around the Q working as many days of the year as we can get.
July 25, 20177 yr It's amazing to me how little vision people can have sometimes. Someone said that he couldn't imagine the Cavs leaving town and "where would they go?" Really? I can think of quite a few major towns that would love an NBA franchise...And remember, what seems unlikely can easily happen - It wasn't that long ago that we couldn't imagine the Cleveland Browns leaving. As great as the last few years with the Cavs have been with Cleveland on a world stage night after night, remember that the Cavs are just a part of the big picture - the Q frequently hosts world class concerts and special events - but that's been to a building that is rapidly aging when compared to similar buildings in competing cities. Underscore the word "competing". It comes down to whether Cleveland wants to remain a major league market. This city has been big league for many decades because great Clevelanders had the vision to think beyond the moment, build great buildings and world class businesses and attractions -Whether the Q deal and the Cavaliers percentage of financial contribution is a perfect equation - I admit, I don't know - but it's the deal that is on the table, one that can realistically happen and one that moves this city forward as "big league" - I don't know how you calculate the value of that. I hope there's a national tv night a few years from now where the broadcast camera pans from a modern "Nucleus" complex" to a transformed 21st century "Q".
July 25, 20177 yr It's amazing to me how little vision people can have sometimes. Someone said that he couldn't imagine the Cavs leaving town and "where would they go?" Really? I can think of quite a few major towns that would love an NBA franchise...And remember, what seems unlikely can easily happen - It wasn't that long ago that we couldn't imagine the Cleveland Browns leaving. As great as the last few years with the Cavs have been with Cleveland on a world stage night after night, remember that the Cavs are just a part of the big picture - the Q frequently hosts world class concerts and special events - but that's been to a building that is rapidly aging when compared to similar buildings in competing cities. Underscore the word "competing". It comes down to whether Cleveland wants to remain a major league market. This city has been big league for many decades because great Clevelanders had the vision to think beyond the moment, build great buildings and world class businesses and attractions -Whether the Q deal and the Cavaliers percentage of financial contribution is a perfect equation - I admit, I don't know - but it's the deal that is on the table, one that can realistically happen and one that moves this city forward as "big league" - I don't know how you calculate the value of that. I hope there's a national tv night a few years from now where the broadcast camera pans from a modern "Nucleus" complex" to a transformed 21st century "Q". I'm 100% in favor of the project, but to act like it is sorely needed and an absolute must in order to compete is a stretch. I've been to many arenas in my life, not one is substantially better than the Gund. Just to name a few: - AA in Miami is beautiful, but terrible to access. - Brooklyn is an absolute disaster. I was hugely disappointed that such a new facility was lacking in so many ways - MSG, pshaw, never understood the love for this facility - BB&T Center (Florida Panthers), bad location, bad facility, bad workflow - Smoothie King Center (New Orleans Pelicans), small concourses and nothing else really stands out - I'll soon get a chance to visit the new T-Mobile Arena in Las Vegas, I've heard good things about it. Anyway, The Gund could certainly benefit from what is being proposed, but is it really falling way behind the competition? I don't see it.
July 25, 20177 yr No franchise is ever safe which is why these owners can play Russian Roulette with city administrators. Seattle, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Columbus, Nashville, Kansas City, Tampa and Las Vegas are all markets with legitimate size to draw an NBA team.
August 10, 20177 yr Bad news (at least to me...some of you may feel different). The Ohio Supreme Court has just ruled that the city clerk must accept and review the referendum petitions. This clearly puts the renovations in limbo for quite some time. I imagine their will be a vote on the issue in November. If I recall the petitioners had more than double the needed signatures.
August 10, 20177 yr Bad news (at least to me...some of you may feel different). The Ohio Supreme Court has just ruled that the city clerk must accept and review the referendum petitions. This clearly puts the renovations in limbo for quite some time. I imagine their will be a vote on the issue in November. If I recall the petitioners had more than double the needed signatures. Not sure how it's bad news that checks and balances are working despite the best efforts of City Council to circumvent them.
August 10, 20177 yr Neighborhood extortion shouldn't be rewarded - but hopefully an agreement on some funding can be reached to appease the neighborhood avoid the delay of a vote that will probably go in the arena' s favor anyway.
August 10, 20177 yr No franchise is ever safe which is why these owners can play Russian Roulette with city administrators. Seattle, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Columbus, Nashville, Kansas City, Tampa and Las Vegas are all markets with legitimate size to draw an NBA team. While I agree that the Cavs could most certainly move...let's face it if the Browns could move then almost ANY team could...none of those markets with the exception of Seattle will be getting the NBA anytime soon.
August 10, 20177 yr Neighborhood extortion shouldn't be rewarded - but hopefully an agreement on some funding can be reached to appease the neighborhood avoid the delay of a vote that will probably go in the arena' s favor anyway. I don't see it as neighborhood extortion at all. Citizens have every right to make concerns heard especially when their elected officials -- the mayor, city council, attempt to ramrod public revenue initiatives like the $140M Q repair bill through, while cavalierly (no pun intended) ignoring purported legitimately-gathered petitions. The true extortion exists as these billionaire owners (Gilbert, a Forbes 200er, had his net worth most recently appraised @ $5B and he's attempting to buy Yahoo to bump up his numbers significantly more) threaten to move teams if they don't get everything exactly their way, including a hefty largess of taxpayer dollars to build, then repair these expensive arenas. Oh of course, local citizens need to ante up for the prestige and other-related advantages of having these pro teams inhabit their city -- never mind the tickets, arena food, licenced jerseys and other memorabilia the locals buy whose generated revenue team owners pocket... Yeah, I know usual refrain: 'that's the way it's done' lest you risk losing your pro team to another city. That doesn't necessarily mean it's right, esp for a poor city like Cleveland that 9-years ago was ground zero for the nation's mortgage/foreclosure crisis. Yes Gilbert has offered some give backs. Still, I see nothing wrong with having a civic conversation even if, in the end, Gilbert and the Cavs get what they want.
August 11, 20177 yr Neighborhood extortion shouldn't be rewarded - but hopefully an agreement on some funding can be reached to appease the neighborhood avoid the delay of a vote that will probably go in the arena' s favor anyway. I don't see it as neighborhood extortion at all. Citizens have every right to make concerns heard especially when their elected officials -- the mayor, city council, attempt to ramrod public revenue initiatives like the $140M Q repair bill through, while cavalierly (no pun intended) ignoring purported legitimately-gathered petitions. The true extortion exists as these billionaire owners (Gilbert, a Forbes 200er, had his net worth most recently appraised @ $5B and he's attempting to buy Yahoo to bump up his numbers significantly more) threaten to move teams if they don't get everything exactly their way, including a hefty largess of taxpayer dollars to build, then repair these expensive arenas. Oh of course, local citizens need to ante up for the prestige and other-related advantages of having these pro teams inhabit their city -- never mind the tickets, arena food, licenced jerseys and other memorabilia the locals buy whose generated revenue team owners pocket... Yeah, I know usual refrain: 'that's the way it's done' lest you risk losing your pro team to another city. That doesn't necessarily mean it's right, esp for a poor city like Cleveland that 9-years ago was ground zero for the nation's mortgage/foreclosure crisis. Yes Gilbert has offered some give backs. Still, I see nothing wrong with having a civic conversation even if, in the end, Gilbert and the Cavs get what they want. Neighborhood extortion shouldn't be rewarded - but hopefully an agreement on some funding can be reached to appease the neighborhood avoid the delay of a vote that will probably go in the arena' s favor anyway. I don't see it as neighborhood extortion at all. Citizens have every right to make concerns heard especially when their elected officials -- the mayor, city council, attempt to ramrod public revenue initiatives like the $140M Q repair bill through, while cavalierly (no pun intended) ignoring purported legitimately-gathered petitions. The true extortion exists as these billionaire owners (Gilbert, a Forbes 200er, had his net worth most recently appraised @ $5B and he's attempting to buy Yahoo to bump up his numbers significantly more) threaten to move teams if they don't get everything exactly their way, including a hefty largess of taxpayer dollars to build, then repair these expensive arenas. Oh of course, local citizens need to ante up for the prestige and other-related advantages of having these pro teams inhabit their city -- never mind the tickets, arena food, licenced jerseys and other memorabilia the locals buy whose generated revenue team owners pocket... Yeah, I know usual refrain: 'that's the way it's done' lest you risk losing your pro team to another city. That doesn't necessarily mean it's right, esp for a poor city like Cleveland that 9-years ago was ground zero for the nation's mortgage/foreclosure crisis. Yes Gilbert has offered some give backs. Still, I see nothing wrong with having a civic conversation even if, in the end, Gilbert and the Cavs get what they want. I disagree with everything you state here. Well almost. First, how do we have these stupid laws where radical people can stop everything they want? In this day and age, there is someone who will be against anything. And the people who are challenging this are radical. They are just trying to spoil this for everyone who cares about the city. Second, there are NO new taxes or increases to taxpayers and citizens. Third, the Cavs are paying for half of this. Fourth, in today's world, the price of admission (no pun intended) for a sports franchise is public help with stadiums and arenas. There are almost no exceptions. I can't think of any. If a city wants to keep their sports teams, this is expected. Fifth, sports franchises must be run like businesses. They have to make money or go out of business or find greener pastures in some other city (and we know what this feels like). The owners are not in business to lose money even though they have a lot of money. The people challenging this are trying to disrupt the city's comeback and recent progress of the city (and doing a good job of it). I am sicked and tired of these shenanigans. The city council voted 12 - 5 in favor of this (one of the five was undoubtedly our friend Jeff Johnson) and the Cuyahoga county representatives also voted in favor of this. So, our elected officials voted in favor of this. This should stand. It is time to repeal the law where stupid citizens can put this and other issues on the ballot and disrupt things. The only thing that I agree with is that some agreement will be made with the neighborhoods.
August 11, 20177 yr The people challenging this are trying to disrupt the city's comeback and recent progress of the city (and doing a good job of it). I am sicked and tired of these shenanigans. No, the people challenging this are sick and tired of living in neighborhoods that have been facing decades and decades of neglect and disinvestment, while we have been subsidizing millionaires/billionaires with sweet stadium deals. If you go outside of downtown, University Circle, Ohio City, and a few other neighborhoods, you'll see that Cleveland is very much not in a "comeback" but we are still continuing to bleed population and are faced with huge issues of infant mortality, lead poisoning, poverty, etc. I think people can have disagreements over this issue, but I don't think you should be disparaging people's motives when you don't really know what's going on.
August 11, 20177 yr This is incredibly stupid. Not only has this dumb move officially put landing the NBA All star game and the millions of dollars that come with it in jeopardy, it could hurt our competitiveness on the world stage. It's incredibly frustrating that everybody wants to lop on other issues that they have with other things that's going on in the city onto something that has nothing to do with it. I have yet to hear a reasonable, rational reason why this shouldn't be done, especially when the Cavs are paying for half of if. It's like every few years Cleveland voters get real stupid and does something to push the city backwards. The fact of the matter is this: not doing the Q deal isn't going to help the neighborhoods: neither are the class warfare peddling fools who are manipulating legitimate fears and frustrations of people in the city for their own gain, many of whom don't even LIVE in the city. I often wonder how the GCC is pushing the opposition to this and their excuse is to fight for more money in the neighborhoods while many of their congregations are in those very neighborhoods that they are supposedly fighting for and they are surrounded by dilapidated buildings, buildings that I'm sure are dirt cheap. What are they doing in their own backyards? What are they doing other than grandstanding and playing on people's fears?! Most of them have the budgets to do something about it. Nobody stops to ask them what are THEY doing to help the communities, besides clothes drives and the occasional giving out of a turkey. The best way that you can help people is to give them a job, and many of the people who work at the Q are people who LIVE IN THOSE VERY NEIGHBORHOODS. The bottom line is that this isn't the 1950s anymore and people keep trying to fight the bring "the good ole days" back. The only way that these neighborhoods are going to be fixed isn't with just randomly throwing money at it that you've extorted, it's through training folks to get the jobs that are available in Cleveland (many of you know that there are available jobs in some fields in the city and not enough people with the skills to fill those jobs), it's through having a strong and competent community development corporation in your neighborhood (you will also notice that the neighborhoods that have strong CDCs tend to do better than the ones that don't. That's the way things are run in Cleveland and nothing that you do with the Q is going to change that). It's having a competent Councilman with vision and ambition to fix the neighborhood. Those last two things are something that the PEOPLE have to push for. YOU are the leader of your own destiny. Stop voting for do nothing councilmen over and over and over again and organize yourself into a CDC if you don't have one in your neighborhood, come up with a plan and fight to be heard. Putting the weight of the entire city's woes outside of the boom neighborhoods on the freakin Quicken Loans Arena deal is not only not true, it's stupid and counterproductive. It prevents us from looking at the real issue at hand, the real people that are in charge of fixing us and that's US.
August 11, 20177 yr And by the way, I'm from the inner city and I still live in Cleveland so I am fully aware of the circumstances in those communities
August 11, 20177 yr And to top this off, I have not heard of any plans of what the plan is for investing the money in the neighborhoods. I don't think there is a plan. They are just trying to disrupt things.
August 11, 20177 yr And to top this off, I have not heard of any plans of what the plan is for investing the money in the neighborhoods. I don't think there is a plan. They are just trying to disrupt things. Why is it so hard for people to believe that you can love Cleveland and love watching the Cavs/Indians/Browns play but still be tired of seeing millions upon millions of dollars poured into the pockets of billionaires? Trickle down economics haven't worked so far, why should we be expected to believe that they will work this time? Edited to add: It's not their job to come up with the plan to invest in the neighborhoods. It's the job of the council men and women that they elected to represent them. And they clearly feel that their representatives have failed them in this instance.
August 11, 20177 yr Then elect better representatives. And it IS your job to come up with a plan for your community, ESPECIALLY if you feel like your leaders aren't doing a good job. Passive, lazy democracy is one of the things damaging this country today. But I digress
August 11, 20177 yr And to top this off, I have not heard of any plans of what the plan is for investing the money in the neighborhoods. I don't think there is a plan. They are just trying to disrupt things. Of course they are. It's just about disruption, obstruction and extortion: the old Cleveland way. What really makes me angry is that the people leading the charge on this are just manipulating and playing on the fears of people. If they were really about that life they would put their money where their mouth is.
August 11, 20177 yr What really makes me angry is that the people leading the charge on this are just manipulating and playing on the fears of people. Are you referring to the constant threats to move the teams? Despicable.
August 11, 20177 yr ^When exactly did the Cavs threaten to move in connection with the renovation project?
August 11, 20177 yr What really makes me angry is that the people leading the charge on this are just manipulating and playing on the fears of people. Are you referring to the constant threats to move the teams? Despicable. I know you're being sarcastic but of course not. I'm talking about the civic "leaders" that are trying to stop the Q deal by lying to people, playing on their fears and desires to return to a world gone by while doing nothing to make the neighborhood better themselves
August 11, 20177 yr The people challenging this are trying to disrupt the city's comeback and recent progress of the city (and doing a good job of it). I am sicked and tired of these shenanigans. No, the people challenging this are sick and tired of living in neighborhoods that have been facing decades and decades of neglect and disinvestment, while we have been subsidizing millionaires/billionaires with sweet stadium deals. If you go outside of downtown, University Circle, Ohio City, and a few other neighborhoods, you'll see that Cleveland is very much not in a "comeback" but we are still continuing to bleed population and are faced with huge issues of infant mortality, lead poisoning, poverty, etc. I think people can have disagreements over this issue, but I don't think you should be disparaging people's motives when you don't really know what's going on. So what do you think will happen? Dan Gilbert reaches in his pocket and sends money to the neighborhoods? The Cavs stay in an older arena forever and the admissions taxes flow like rivers to Glenville and Hough? It's not going to happen! The Q is a job creator. Maybe not the kinds of jobs you fancy, but the kinds that give people in Cleveland's neighborhoods a chance to make money.
August 11, 20177 yr What really makes me angry is that the people leading the charge on this are just manipulating and playing on the fears of people. Are you referring to the constant threats to move the teams? Despicable. I know you're being sarcastic but of course not. I'm talking about the civic "leaders" that are trying to stop the Q deal by lying to people, playing on their fears and desires to return to a world gone by while doing nothing to make the neighborhood better themselves So how is that any different than the proponents of this cash grab (and the Sin Tax before it) from playing on their memories of the Browns leaving down and the idea that the Cavs could do the same. And while Dan Gilbert himself has probably never directly and publicly threatened to move the team, has he ever publicly and directly said that the Cavs are staying in Cleveland whether they get the money or not? He could write a check for the entire amount of the renovation and not feel a bump in his day. That money can and should be spent on better things for Cleveland and Cuyahoga County.
August 11, 20177 yr The people challenging this are trying to disrupt the city's comeback and recent progress of the city (and doing a good job of it). I am sicked and tired of these shenanigans. No, the people challenging this are sick and tired of living in neighborhoods that have been facing decades and decades of neglect and disinvestment, while we have been subsidizing millionaires/billionaires with sweet stadium deals. If you go outside of downtown, University Circle, Ohio City, and a few other neighborhoods, you'll see that Cleveland is very much not in a "comeback" but we are still continuing to bleed population and are faced with huge issues of infant mortality, lead poisoning, poverty, etc. I think people can have disagreements over this issue, but I don't think you should be disparaging people's motives when you don't really know what's going on. If people are sick and tired of neglect and disinvestment, maybe these people should stop trashing their neighborhoods. Maybe they should stop robbing and killing each other in their neighborhoods. Maybe they should raise their kids and make sure they go to school and do their homework. These neighborhoods aren't screwed up because of neglect and lack of investment. They're screwed up because the ignorant people in these neighborhoods screw it up. And there is no amount of money from Dan Gilbert or anyone else that is going to fix THAT problem!!!
August 11, 20177 yr What really makes me angry is that the people leading the charge on this are just manipulating and playing on the fears of people. Are you referring to the constant threats to move the teams? Despicable. I know you're being sarcastic but of course not. I'm talking about the civic "leaders" that are trying to stop the Q deal by lying to people, playing on their fears and desires to return to a world gone by while doing nothing to make the neighborhood better themselves So how is that any different than the proponents of this cash grab (and the Sin Tax before it) from playing on their memories of the Browns leaving down and the idea that the Cavs could do the same. And while Dan Gilbert himself has probably never directly and publicly threatened to move the team, has he ever publicly and directly said that the Cavs are staying in Cleveland whether they get the money or not? He could write a check for the entire amount of the renovation and not feel a bump in his day. That money can and should be spent on better things for Cleveland and Cuyahoga County. So that means you're also against tax dollars being used for the arts or for the major developments that the city has benefited from (which ALL contain tax money or tax breaks in some way or another) right? If that's true then at least I'll respect your consistency, even if you're still wildly wrong. Look, this'll be my last comment on it because I don't want to get the thread locked, but at the end of the day, hurting jobs (many of which are held by the very people you claim to care about), hurting our competitiveness and damaging our market just because you want to play chicken with Dan Gilbert is cutting off your nose to spite your face. Playing this stupid, unproductive class warfare "let's stick it to the fat cat" idiocy will only hurt us. You ain't hurting Dan. But if people like you get your way, we've already blown the tens of millions of dollars of economic activity that could be coming from the NBA All star weekend. They've already said no renovation, no all star weekend. So we're already looking at losing money because of silly class envy
August 11, 20177 yr ^ Thank you for your off topic uninformed comment. The bottom line is that some of our neighborhoods are screwed up primarily because of the people who live in these neighborhoods. Throwing money at this problem isn't going fix it!!! And the fact that we've probably lost an All-Star game and the revenues that come with it because of some crooked greedy-a$$ pastors is outrageous!!! How is everyone going to feel if the Cavs are ultimately moved out-of-town because of this? And if you don't think this is possible, go ask fans of the Seattle SuperSonics!!! If you can't comprehend this, then maybe YOU are the one who is uninformed!!!
August 28, 20177 yr Since the Quicken Loans Arena thread is locked, perhaps it could be unlocked and move this post to it? A press release..... http://www.nba.com/cavaliers/news/q-transformation-170828 Cleveland Cavaliers Withdraw Capital Commitment And Further Participation In $140 Million Quicken Loans Arena Transformation Project Time delays due to ‘referendum’ attempt make project unfeasible Posted: Aug 28, 2017 Cleveland, Ohio (August 28, 2017) - The Cleveland Cavaliers announced today the cancellation of their participation in The Q Transformation Project of the publicly-owned Quicken Loans Arena, which would have: + Significantly upgraded one of the oldest arenas in the NBA + Make it more competitive for the long term with other nearby midwestern cities and national venues to maintain and attract additional events + Created over 2,500 project-related construction jobs + Grown The Q’s permanent job base to 3,200 + Increased tax revenue to the City’s General Fund and neighborhoods + Extended the Cavaliers lease for The Q to 2034 + Help maintain state and local taxes such as the $44 million in 2016 and potential growing tax revenue source to Cleveland through 2034 + Rehabbed 40 gym courts and floors in the city of Cleveland’s rec centers and all Cleveland Metropolitan School Districts high schools + Brought an NBA All-Star Game to Cleveland in 2020 or 2021 along with its $100 million+ economic impact Construction on the $140 million publicly-owned facility project was to have started this past June, but had been delayed due to a prospective referendum being placed on the ballot by the Washington, DC-based Metro Industrial Areas Foundation represented locally by a group calling themselves the “Greater Cleveland Congregations” (GCC), Service Employees International Union District 1199 and the Cuyahoga County Progressive Caucus. The prospective referendum will cause the groundbreaking of The Q Transformation to miss the current construction cycle, which pushes the overall price tag of the project higher due to rising construction costs. In addition, a time sensitive financing package that included historically low interest rates would be negatively impacted by further delay due to a prospective referendum exposing the project to an expected higher interest rate environment. The public friendly public/private partnership was to be funded with $70 million of private capital contributed by the Cavaliers organization and an additional $70 million in public funding was to be generated primarily by a portion of the existing Admission Tax of every ticket sold to every event at The Q from 2023-2034 and a portion of the existing Cuyahoga County Bed Tax which is paid predominantly by visitors from outside of the County, many of which are attending events at The Q, as well as other sources either directly generated or largely impacted by The Q. The Cavaliers had also committed to covering any and all construction cost overruns on the project. In addition, the City’s General Fund would have received matching funds equal to the revenue collected from the Admission Tax generated for use in The Q Transformation project. There were no new or increased taxes related to this project. The Q is the oldest arena in the NBA without a major structural renovation. The renovation project would have extended the life of The Q to over 40 years when the average life of similar facilities is only 22 years in the NBA. The $140 million transformation investment is a fraction of the cost of a new arena, which today would cost between $500-$800 million. Quicken Loans Arena and the Cleveland Cavaliers have been a massive economic engine for downtown Cleveland and the entire region: + Generating over $2.7 billion in economic activity creating thousands of jobs + Producing nearly $500 million in state and local tax revenue + Contributed over $42 million in community, civic and charitable funding and support to local programs like the Greater Cleveland Habitat for Humanity, the Cleveland Food Bank, Shoes and Clothes for Kids, Cleveland Municipal School District and Boys & Girls Club of Cleveland among others + The most public-friendly lease for mid to small markets in the NBA with the Cavs paying 100% of maintaining, operating and repairing The Q since it opened in 1994, including the vast majority of capital repairs, resulting in over $400 million of private investment into the publicly-owned arena + Co-funding along with the Indians 100% of their landlord Gateway Economic Corporation's expenses, including all property taxes related to The Q + Invested at record-levels into the Cavs player payroll contributing to three consecutive NBA Finals appearances and Cleveland's first major professional sports championship in 52 years + Cavaliers Chairman Dan Gilbert and the organization's Family of Companies invested over $2.4 billion into business and real estate in Cleveland and Ohio since 2005 + The Family of Companies employs over 5,100 team members in Greater Cleveland and over 6,200 in the State of Ohio + Substantial investment in the development of downtown and Cleveland’s neighborhoods. This includes a deep commitment to fighting blight, including the organization's lead role in securing over $60 million of Federal Hardest Hit Funds for blight relief for Cleveland and Cuyahoga County, and donating over $1 million of support to the efforts of the Greater Cleveland Habitat for Humanity + The recently announced $1 million dollar donation to support Cleveland and Akron public school S.T.E.M. programs “Quicken Loans Arena brings over 2 million people a year to downtown Cleveland and last year alone produced $245 million in economic activity including the RNC and the NBA Finals. This facility is Cleveland’s gateway to the world as many of our events are broadcast nationally and internationally. The investments over the years into The Q have paid back multiples in economic impact, job creation and tax generation. It is very disappointing to see our further private investment into The Q Transformation project reach this ending point,” said Len Komoroski, CEO of the Cleveland Cavaliers. The Cavaliers appreciate the strong leadership of Cuyahoga County Executive Armond Budish and Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson, along with Cuyahoga County Council President Dan Brady and Cleveland City Council President Kevin Kelley. Both the Cuyahoga County Council and Cleveland City Council overwhelmingly agreed with the project, by way of supermajority votes of support, understanding that there is a need to update the publicly-owned Quicken Loans Arena for the future benefit of the entire community. United States Congresswoman Marcia Fudge has also been a major supporter. State Senator Sandra Williams has been a strong advocate as well. There was also tremendous support and partnership from many civic, community and business leaders and organizations both locally and regionally, including the NAACP, the United Pastors in Mission, Cleveland Clergy Coalition, ACEE/Black Contractors Group, the Urban League of Cleveland, the Cleveland Building & Construction Trades Council, Laborer’s International Union Local 310, the President’s Council, Greater Cleveland Partnership, Downtown Cleveland Alliance, Greater Cleveland Sports Commission, and many others. Civic and community support for the project was earned by the public-friendly, private and self-generating funding source structure being an efficient, significantly less costly and beneficial way to extend the life of a core public asset for the long term. The Cavaliers organization will no longer participate in the partnership formed for The Q Transformation project and the need for a referendum no longer exists. ### "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
August 28, 20177 yr Sooo.... what's gonna happen now? Will the Q just not be renovated any time in the foreseeable future? I think Gilbert should have contributed much more to the deal, but I still think we're going to have to have some kind of deal in the future. As I understand it, the Q is outdated compared to most NBA arenas.
August 28, 20177 yr This shouldn't be understated. Teams LEAVE cities because of things like this. This was NOTHING but a vote grab and click bait by some politicians and a newspaper who do not understand economics or large-scale financing. This would have brought in tens of millions to local vendors and owners. Not to mention, we now lose the all-star game. If Dan Gilbert wasn't a billionaire, this would not have been an issue. But, it got politicized as an anti 1% movement and now we've lost a massive renovation, an all-star game, taxable revenue to local business, and potentially a team.
August 28, 20177 yr So how much is the new arena going to cost in 5-10yrs? Significantly more than this renovation. The renovation would've gotten us through 2030, at least. In order to be competitive, you need new facilities. Ask Cincinnati.
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