Now the populist politicians are going to have to make good on their promises to throw millions of dollars not spent on the Q into the neighborhoods.  I expect to drive on a freshly paved street at any point in the city. 

Now the populist politicians are going to have to make good on their promises to throw millions of dollars not spent on the Q into the neighborhoods.  I expect to drive on a freshly paved street at any point in the city.

 

Hahaha EXACTLY.

 

To be honest... this is a MAJOR downside of democracy..

 

It's like Socrates said in the Republic... If you were making a journey across the sea on a 20 foot boat, and a group of people had to choose your captain, would you want the populace at large making the choice, or a more select group qualified on nautical navigation making the vote?

 

This had no business going to a referendum and Cleveland Scene's anti-Gilbert-butthurtedness shined through big time, compounded by populist politicians who do not understand economics.

They'll be back with a new renovation plan after the election.

One can only hope KJP.

Sucks.

NBA had a vested interest in seeing this go thru, as evidenced by their goading the city to get this done.

Hate to be a downer but this really doesn't bode well for Cavs staying in CLE long term.

 

I'm constantly surprised how willing the public is to give away tax dollars for private benefit with dubious public good. While I don't agree with the group organizing the opposition to the Q deal I am glad somebody is holding the cities feet to the fire. If you're negotiating with a whiff of desperation, then it's not really a negotiation.

They'll be back with a new renovation plan after the election.

 

And if they come back with a new plan, what is to prevent the same stupid people from gathering signatures again to force it to another ballot?

 

Whatever the law that allows this to happen, needs to be repealed before another proposal.  In this day and age, there is going to be some group opposed to anything.  I am afraid the same thing will happen if Nucleus gets its TIFF approved.  There will be opposition to it by some group that would force it to the polls.

 

And now everyone loses.  There is no renovation of the Q and the stupid opposition will not get any money for the neighborhoods.

 

I hope the opposition feels good about this, but I am very, very angry!!!!

Gilbert needs to buck up. joe Lacob (warriors owner) set the bar by building his new arena in SF with no public financing. That's the new standard. Anything less and your an opportunist in my book.  He's the richest person in the state of Michigan, poaching dollars off one of the poorest cities in the country

Even though I think the current state of the Q is great, we should put it in context with the rest of the NBA. It is the SEVENTH oldest NBA arena.

 

Of the six older arenas 2, Oracle Arena in Oakland and Bradley Center in Milwaukee, are being replaced by new stadiums currently under construction in the those markets.

 

2 other older arenas, Target Center in Minneapolis and Vivint Smart Home Arena in Salt Lake City, are warping up $100 million+ stadium renovations this year. Madison Square Garden also underwent a billion dollar renovation a couple of years ago.

 

This leaves Talking Stick Resort Arena in Phoenix as the only older stadium than the Q that is not currently being renovated or replaced. The Suns are pushing the city for a NEW venue, claiming their current facility, which is only two years older than the Q, is outdated.

Whatever the law that allows this to happen, needs to be repealed before another proposal.

 

It would be very difficult to repeal the Constitution. I don't agree with the opposition's math either, but I also think that corporations and politicians need to stop expecting government handouts. Many people are frustrated that much of the city outside of downtown is rotting. They deserve to be heard, not disregarded. The vote was their cry to be heard.

Sucks.

NBA had a vested interest in seeing this go thru, as evidenced by their goading the city to get this done.

Hate to be a downer but this really doesn't bode well for Cavs staying in CLE long term.

 

Don't sweat it. Gilbert is a smart guy and there's a Plan B, C and D for renovation.

 

The CAVS will leave when Cleveland transitions into a west coast liberal enclave. ie Never.

Gilbert needs to buck up. joe Lacob (warriors owner) set the bar by building his new arena in SF with no public financing. That's the new standard. Anything less and your an opportunist in my book.  He's the richest person in the state of Michigan, poaching dollars off one of the poorest cities in the country

 

This is not going to happen.  This is the exception and not the norm.

 

Gilbert was going to pay for half of it.  And there were no new taxes.  And there was not an increase in the admissions tax.

 

So, it is a no brainer to support this renovation.  It is just plain stupid to be against this.

^i sat on the fence about this for months. Couldn't decide if it was appropriate or not. Now I feel it's not. Be a leader, Dan. If Lacob is the exception, fine. We need more being the exception in this city

I was all for the project until the City Council refused to accept the petition signatures to force it on the ballot. That's when I became sympathetic to the opposition, even though I still disagree with them on the merits of their case.

Sucks.

NBA had a vested interest in seeing this go thru, as evidenced by their goading the city to get this done.

Hate to be a downer but this really doesn't bode well for Cavs staying in CLE long term.

 

Don't sweat it. Gilbert is a smart guy and there's a Plan B, C and D for renovation.

 

The CAVS will leave when Cleveland transitions into a west coast liberal enclave. ie Never.

 

How many times do we have to re-learn this lesson before we realize that this?????? IS NOT TRUE? Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it

Gilbert needs to buck up. joe Lacob (warriors owner) set the bar by building his new arena in SF with no public financing. That's the new standard. Anything less and your an opportunist in my book.  He's the richest person in the state of Michigan, poaching dollars off one of the poorest cities in the country

 

This is not going to happen.  This is the exception and not the norm.

 

Gilbert was going to pay for half of it.  And there were no new taxes.  And there was not an increase in the admissions tax.

 

So, it is a no brainer to support this renovation.  It is just plain stupid to be against this.

 

Just curious, where does the admission tax go now? I see there are no new taxes, but obviously money had to be moved to free up the funding for the renovation.

 

Personally, I don't think this is a huge deal, and the reasons cited in the press release for walking out of the proposed partnership seem bogus. Why not let the issue go to a vote? If it's as much of a no-brainer as it's being described here, it should easily pass. Construction costs, material costs, interest rates, etc fluctuate all the time. If costs are increased, the length of borrowing from the admissions tax could be extended, the amount could be increased, or Gilbert/the Cavs could pony up the extra funds to bridge the gap. Walking away and issuing an absurd press release because you didn't get what you wanted exactly when you wanted it is ridiculous and, quite frankly, insulting.

 

This renovation plan was announced pretty recently. The arena just played host to a political convention, so I really do not think the city is missing out on events due to a dilapidated arena. A new renovation plan will be announced sooner or later, and I would be shocked if the Cavs went anywhere. Unless, of course, Danny Boy decides to really stick it to Cleveland and move the team out of spite.

I was all for the project until the City Council refused to accept the petition signatures to force it on the ballot. That's when I became sympathetic to the opposition, even though I still disagree with them on the merits of their case.

 

I get how petition signatures work, but how can an organization that sloppily delivers 22,000-ish signatures - of which only 13,000 are valid - be taken seriously?

@RuiterWrongFAN

Seattle still wants an NBA team. No upgraded arena puts the #Cavs on the market IMO

 

Then again, Seattle needs an arena, LOL!

The Cavs bargaining power only increases as time goes on without a deal for a renovation. If this doesn't get done soon then the talk will turn to a new arena as the end of the lease with the city nears. A new arena would probably cost close to one billion Dollars in ten years. I hope the sides go back to the table. We can't risk losing the Cavs!

The Cavs' lease doesn’t expire until 2027.

I'm glad to see the deal is dead but the pessimist in me is just expecting them to announce Plan B next week, a slight retweaking of Plan A, that would require a whole new petition drive.  Lather, rinse, repeat until the people opposing it just give up. 

I'm glad to see the deal is dead but the pessimist in me is just expecting them to announce Plan B next week, a slight retweaking of Plan A, that would require a whole new petition drive.  Lather, rinse, repeat until the people opposing it just give up.

 

Don't count on it. The Cavs are rightfully p*ssed off about this. Do not expect any concessions, expect hardening in their position.

I'm glad to see the deal is dead but the pessimist in me is just expecting them to announce Plan B next week, a slight retweaking of Plan A, that would require a whole new petition drive.  Lather, rinse, repeat until the people opposing it just give up.

 

Don't count on it. The Cavs are rightfully p*ssed off about this. Do not expect any concessions, expect hardening in their position.

 

Then let them leave.  Throwing money at professional sports teams is a losing investment.  We'll just have to find other things to be proud of Cleveland about.   

I still don't understand why its dead......Why are they afraid of a vote?  This sounds like a Gilbert hissy fit.  Personally, I thought this was a good deal for all sides, and if presented correctly would of passed.

I'm glad there was some pushback, as sports teams shouldn't be able to hold cities and the taxpayers hostage.  At the same time, it's a major disappointment.  Delaying this only makes the next move more costly.  Pushing back the same type of renovation, construction costs will most certainly go up, as will the cost of money.  Do you think Gilbert will up his ante and cover more of this?  I highly doubt that.  He's got all the leverage and no allegiance to Cleveland. Whether he sells the team or not, we'll need a new arena (or substantially renovated) by the end of this lease.  There'll be threats of moving the team and the city/taxpayers will ultimately cave (because the threat is most definitely real). There's dozens of cities of our size or larger that would be quick to subsidize an arena to lure them to their city.  At the end of the day, we either lose the cavs in 10 years, pay more for the same renovation plans, or build a new arena in the $800M - $1B range.  There's no white knight out there that's gonna swoop in and pay for this.  After this election, Jackson better work with Gilbert and get something done.  Go Cavs!

^^Agreed. Cleveland is still smarting from extortions like the Browns deal, the Medical Mart nightmare of lies, and Gilbert's standalone casino, I mean Phase 2 casino, has been on radio silence for years now after a few dishonest tweets.

 

If losing 1000 seats and adding a few restaurants and glass wall magically "modernizes" the stadium, and now the Cavs leave in 2027, well, it's not like the city was getting S**t in property taxes anyway.

 

There has to be a limit on corporate welfare.

I still don't understand why its dead......Why are they afraid of a vote?  This sounds like a Gilbert hissy fit.  Personally, I thought this was a good deal for all sides, and if presented correctly would of passed.

 

Time is what Gilbert has the least of. In retrospect, Gilbert and the pols should have taken the NuCLEus approach to selling the TIFF, which seems to be succeeding; unfortunately they rushed it. Too bad, it was a pretty good deal.

 

There will always be a large percentage of people who want to eat all the seed corn now. We need a better way of saying no.

Then let them leave.  Throwing money at professional sports teams is a losing investment.  We'll just have to find other things to be proud of Cleveland about. 

 

If you honestly believe that public, capital investment in the home of an NBA franchise is a bad investment idea then you can't see the forest through the trees.

 

Please, cite one city that has suffered economically as a result of capital improvements to an NBA arena. This ISN'T MedicalMart. Equating all public financing is not an accurate reflection of this. Allowing the emotions of "but this is public money" to cloud what this will do to the local economy isn't an astute decision.

 

Ask yourself, are these things now MORE likely to happen:

- NBA All-star game

- NuCLEus

- Major concert commitments

- NCAA Tournament bids

- MAC Tournament contract extension

- Conventions with required arena access

 

But hey, public dollars have been improperly spent in the past, so to hell with it.

 

The irony to me on this issue has been that the group of churches that pushed this are advocating for how tax dollars are spent while they are members and representatives of tax free institutions.

 

Furthermore I have yet to see a plan put forth by this group to demonstrate how to constructively spend money in troubled Cleveland neighborhoods to improve them. 

 

Lacking a plan, the optics to me are a group with their hands out ready to burn money because: neighborhoods?

 

 

The irony to me on this issue has been that the group of churches that pushed this are advocating for how tax dollars are spent while they are members and representatives of tax free institutions.

 

Furthermore I have yet to see a plan put forth by this group to demonstrate how to constructively spend money in troubled Cleveland neighborhoods to improve them. 

 

Lacking a plan, the optics to me are a group with their hands out, ready to burn money because: neighborhoods?

 

If I could like this x100000, I would. The fact remains that almost all of the people opposing this background have little to no experience in finance and economics. They're just going by the eye test and common sense. Common sense is great in many situations, but not in more nuanced matters. Common sense would tell us the earth is flat...

 

Neighborhood development will never happen in any sustainable way without employment growth in the area. Employment growth won't be incentivized without some private-sector involvement.

 

I'm honestly so happy for Warrensville, Shaker, Maple, parts of Cleveland etc who will benefit from the Amazon distribution center. Their neighborhoods will benefit from more people going to work and seeing a steady income.

Then let them leave.  Throwing money at professional sports teams is a losing investment.  We'll just have to find other things to be proud of Cleveland about. 

 

If you honestly believe that public, capital investment in the home of an NBA franchise is a bad investment idea then you can't see the forest through the trees.

 

Please, cite one city that has suffered economically as a result of capital improvements to an NBA arena. This ISN'T MedicalMart. Equating all public financing is not an accurate reflection of this. Allowing the emotions of "but this is public money" to cloud what this will do to the local economy isn't an astute decision.

 

Ask yourself, are these things now MORE likely to happen:

- NBA All-star game

- NuCLEus

- Major concert commitments

- NCAA Tournament bids

- MAC Tournament contract extension

- Conventions with required arena access

 

But hey, public dollars have been improperly spent in the past, so to hell with it.

 

Seriously?  NuCLEus has nothing to do with a renovated Q.  Stark's record on building anything like he says he will is shamefully bad.  NuCLEus is not going to happen with a renovated Q or in its current state.  Try again.

 

Dan Gilbert needs to do more.  I am so surprised how  many people stick up for this guy in Cleveland.  He has done so very little for the city when it comes to actual development (what we love to talk about on this site).  I could careless about phase 2 of the casino, but this guy has done nothing with those parking lots behind Tower City, has done nothing in Tower City as far as investments go since he bought it, and there is a crap dirt lot where he tore a building down for what?  He also put a skywalk into the Higbee Building. That stuff doesn't happen with his developments in Detroit.  If you read his Twitter, he loves Detroit and Cleveland, but does very little for the city of Cleveland.  Go to downtown Detroit and look at downtown Cleveland, huge difference right now.  Construction is everywhere in Detroit where it's just in pockets in Cleveland.  I was up in town for the Kansas City/Cleveland game Saturday.  Most everything was dead outside of the Gateway District, there's so much room for improvement.  Meanwhile in Detroit, you have so much interest in building and renovating, it seems like weekly a new major project is happening downtown.  The old at least we're not Detroit doesn't have the meaning to it that it once did.

 

I am all for a renovated Q, but Dan Gilbert should not get a break here.  Great, he brought in a championship team to Cleveland, but he is also losing that championship team very quickly off of poor decisions he has made recently.  His love is in Detroit, it's his hometown and that's great, but Cleveland is just another city in his eyes, and he is not serious when it comes to investing in the 216.  Funding half the renovations is one thing, but with his track record in Detroit, this one project that he will actually do in Cleveland deserves more.

The irony to me on this issue has been that the group of churches that pushed this are advocating for how tax dollars are spent while they are members and representatives of tax free institutions.

 

Furthermore I have yet to see a plan put forth by this group to demonstrate how to constructively spend money in troubled Cleveland neighborhoods to improve them. 

 

Lacking a plan, the optics to me are a group with their hands out, ready to burn money because: neighborhoods?

 

If I could like this x100000, I would. The fact remains that almost all of the people opposing this background have little to no experience in finance and economics. They're just going by the eye test and common sense. Common sense is great in many situations, but not in more nuanced matters. Common sense would tell us the earth is flat...

 

Neighborhood development will never happen in any sustainable way without employment growth in the area. Employment growth won't be incentivized without some private-sector involvement.

 

I'm honestly so happy for Warrensville, Shaker, Maple, parts of Cleveland etc who will benefit from the Amazon distribution center. Their neighborhoods will benefit from more people going to work and seeing a steady income.

 

These community activists like to think that the "buckets of money" that would be spent at the Q are going to rain down on their neighborhoods.  The problem is, by the time that same dollar that would have been spent on the Q gets to their neighborhoods, it's been so watered down by politicians and groups that it doesn't amount to much.  So instead of 10 guys in your neighborhood having solid construction jobs for a year, you hire one assistant to an assistant director at a CDC making $15k a year.  Nice work people!

So how much is the new arena going to cost in 5-10yrs?

 

Significantly more than this renovation. The renovation would've gotten us through 2030, at least. In order to be competitive, you need new facilities. Ask Cincinnati.

 

I'm curious why you'd invoke Cincinnati, who appear to have the worst stadium deal in history?

 

https://faculty.ucmo.edu/crooker/sportsEconomics/Stadiums_Costly_Legacy_Throws_Taxpayers_For_a_loss_7122011.pdf

So how much is the new arena going to cost in 5-10yrs?

 

Significantly more than this renovation. The renovation would've gotten us through 2030, at least. In order to be competitive, you need new facilities. Ask Cincinnati.

 

I'm curious why you'd invoke Cincinnati, who appear to have the worst stadium deal in history?

 

https://faculty.ucmo.edu/crooker/sportsEconomics/Stadiums_Costly_Legacy_Throws_Taxpayers_For_a_loss_7122011.pdf

 

IMO these articles about NFL and MLB stadium economics hold some merit.  An arena, on the other hand, can be used 365 days a year for a multitude of purposes.  It's apples to oranges.  So comparing Cleveland's Q to Cinci's US Bank Arena is quite valid. 

Then let them leave.  Throwing money at professional sports teams is a losing investment.  We'll just have to find other things to be proud of Cleveland about. 

 

If you honestly believe that public, capital investment in the home of an NBA franchise is a bad investment idea then you can't see the forest through the trees.

 

Please, cite one city that has suffered economically as a result of capital improvements to an NBA arena. This ISN'T MedicalMart. Equating all public financing is not an accurate reflection of this. Allowing the emotions of "but this is public money" to cloud what this will do to the local economy isn't an astute decision.

 

Ask yourself, are these things now MORE likely to happen:

- NBA All-star game

- NuCLEus

- Major concert commitments

- NCAA Tournament bids

- MAC Tournament contract extension

- Conventions with required arena access

 

But hey, public dollars have been improperly spent in the past, so to hell with it.

 

Seriously?  NuCLEus has nothing to do with a renovated Q.  Stark's record on building anything like he says he will is shamefully bad.  NuCLEus is not going to happen with a renovated Q or in its current state.  Try again.

 

A renovated Q does help make nuCLEus more equitable. 

^Amen. Gilberts success in cleveland is directly tied to Lebron. Nothing else. He has created a casino that I'm sure has ruined plenty of lives, while employing people, yes but hardly a needle mover. He has spent for the Cavs, but his ornery little man syndrome looks has caused consistent drama year in and year out.  He isn't that great

Then let them leave.  Throwing money at professional sports teams is a losing investment.  We'll just have to find other things to be proud of Cleveland about. 

 

If you honestly believe that public, capital investment in the home of an NBA franchise is a bad investment idea then you can't see the forest through the trees.

 

Please, cite one city that has suffered economically as a result of capital improvements to an NBA arena. This ISN'T MedicalMart. Equating all public financing is not an accurate reflection of this. Allowing the emotions of "but this is public money" to cloud what this will do to the local economy isn't an astute decision.

 

Ask yourself, are these things now MORE likely to happen:

- NBA All-star game

- NuCLEus

- Major concert commitments

- NCAA Tournament bids

- MAC Tournament contract extension

- Conventions with required arena access

 

But hey, public dollars have been improperly spent in the past, so to hell with it.

 

Seriously?  NuCLEus has nothing to do with a renovated Q.  Stark's record on building anything like he says he will is shamefully bad.  NuCLEus is not going to happen with a renovated Q or in its current state.  Try again.

 

A renovated Q does help make nuCLEus more equitable.

 

There has been no evidence to support this.  You can tell me all of what NuCLEus has like shops, a hotel, and restaurants, but that all depends on Stark actually getting his act together and building the thing.  Wishful thinking.

This whole conversation comes down to one thing; do we want to play the Game of Favor or not? Society favors the wealthy, the athletic, the beautiful. Always has.

 

In our particular little corner of the Game we are talking public subsidies to renovate the Q. One side says it's not fair to give billionaires breaks and they are absolutely correct. Public money is better spent elsewhere when arenas can cost up to a billion dollars. The price of tickets, food, and parking can be ridiculous and athletes/entertainers make crazy salaries. The other side says, fair or not that's simply the price of admission to the Game of Favor. And after all, they didn't make the rules so what can they do?

 

Of course there is the occasional exception so for the most part you can't change the Game, but you can choose to opt out. Individuals can choose principle and opt out by not buying tickets. Cities can also choose to opt out by not building arenas/stadiums. We have a choice.

 

Just remember one thing, if an individual chooses to opt out they won't see the event but if a city opts out at some point the event won't be available to see. Choose wisely.

 

Right or wrong has nothing to do with it. If you want to play you have to pay.

This whole conversation comes down to one thing; do we want to play the Game of Favor or not? Society favors the wealthy, the athletic, the beautiful. Always has.

 

In our particular little corner of the Game we are talking public subsidies to renovate the Q. One side says it's not fair to give billionaires breaks and they are absolutely correct. Public money is better spent elsewhere when arenas can cost up to a billion dollars. The price of tickets, food, and parking can be ridiculous and athletes/entertainers make crazy salaries. The other side says, fair or not that's simply the price of admission to the Game of Favor. And after all, they didn't make the rules so what can they do?

 

Of course there is the occasional exception so for the most part you can't change the Game, but you can choose to opt out. Individuals can choose principle and opt out by not buying tickets. Cities can also choose to opt out by not building arenas/stadiums. We have a choice.

 

Just remember one thing, if an individual chooses to opt out they won't see the event but if a city opts out at some point the event won't be available to see. Choose wisely.

 

Right or wrong has nothing to do with it. If you want to play you have to pay.

 

I agree, Cleveland should pay.  I think a renovated Q will be great.  Not that the Q is bad right now, and no one was really complaining last year when it held a major event.  But it's nice to have new things, right?  Invest in it, Cleveland.  At the same time, I think the owner should do more.  There are a lot of bad stadium deals around the country, and I think Cleveland needs to be smart about this one.  With what Dan Gilbert has done in Detroit, he can certainly do more for one arena rehab.

If you honestly believe NuCLEus has nothing to do with the Q, then we're not even in the same stratosphere of logic MissinOhio[/member] .

 

Live Entertainment, who runs Louisville Live probably committed as a tenant because NuCLEus was in the suburbs... The hotel is being pitched aggressively because it is miles from the arena... got it.

Then let them leave.  Throwing money at professional sports teams is a losing investment.  We'll just have to find other things to be proud of Cleveland about. 

 

If you honestly believe that public, capital investment in the home of an NBA franchise is a bad investment idea then you can't see the forest through the trees.

 

Please, cite one city that has suffered economically as a result of capital improvements to an NBA arena. This ISN'T MedicalMart. Equating all public financing is not an accurate reflection of this. Allowing the emotions of "but this is public money" to cloud what this will do to the local economy isn't an astute decision.

 

Ask yourself, are these things now MORE likely to happen:

- NBA All-star game

- NuCLEus

- Major concert commitments

- NCAA Tournament bids

- MAC Tournament contract extension

- Conventions with required arena access

 

But hey, public dollars have been improperly spent in the past, so to hell with it.

 

Seriously?  NuCLEus has nothing to do with a renovated Q.  Stark's record on building anything like he says he will is shamefully bad.  NuCLEus is not going to happen with a renovated Q or in its current state.  Try again.

 

A renovated Q does help make nuCLEus more equitable.

 

There has been no evidence to support this.  You can tell me all of what NuCLEus has like shops, a hotel, and restaurants, but that all depends on Stark actually getting his act together and building the thing.  Wishful thinking.

 

This won't help Stark get financing, but it will hurt him.  Just watch.

This whole conversation comes down to one thing; do we want to play the Game of Favor or not? Society favors the wealthy, the athletic, the beautiful. Always has.

 

In our particular little corner of the Game we are talking public subsidies to renovate the Q. One side says it's not fair to give billionaires breaks and they are absolutely correct. Public money is better spent elsewhere when arenas can cost up to a billion dollars. The price of tickets, food, and parking can be ridiculous and athletes/entertainers make crazy salaries. The other side says, fair or not that's simply the price of admission to the Game of Favor. And after all, they didn't make the rules so what can they do?

 

Of course there is the occasional exception so for the most part you can't change the Game, but you can choose to opt out. Individuals can choose principle and opt out by not buying tickets. Cities can also choose to opt out by not building arenas/stadiums. We have a choice.

 

Just remember one thing, if an individual chooses to opt out they won't see the event but if a city opts out at some point the event won't be available to see. Choose wisely.

 

Right or wrong has nothing to do with it. If you want to play you have to pay.

 

I agree, Cleveland should pay.  I think a renovated Q will be great.  Not that the Q is bad right now, and no one was really complaining last year when it held a major event.  But it's nice to have new things, right?  Invest in it, Cleveland.  At the same time, I think the owner should do more.  There are a lot of bad stadium deals around the country, and I think Cleveland needs to be smart about this one.  With what Dan Gilbert has done in Detroit, he can certainly do more for one arena rehab.

 

As we type on this forum now, Dan Gilbert has gone from paying for 1/2 of this out of his pocket, plus renovating a bunch of community centers with new basketball courts, to paying $0.00 and not doing a thing.  IMO if the negotiations restart eventually, his deal is going to get worse because he will be in the drivers seat. 

If you honestly believe NuCLEus has nothing to do with the Q, then we're not even in the same stratosphere of logic MissinOhio[/member] .

 

Live Entertainment, who runs Louisville Live probably committed as a tenant because NuCLEus was in the suburbs... The hotel is being pitched aggressively because it is miles from the arena... got it.

 

Exactly.  This puts doubts in lenders, tenants and everything else connected to nuCLEus.  Some people can't see the bigger picture.

If you honestly believe NuCLEus has nothing to do with the Q, then we're not even in the same stratosphere of logic MissinOhio[/member] .

 

Live Entertainment, who runs Louisville Live probably committed as a tenant because NuCLEus was in the suburbs... The hotel is being pitched aggressively because it is miles from the arena... got it.

 

The thing hasn't even broken ground.  Please tell me how the Q relates to NuCLEus.

IMO if the negotiations restart eventually, his deal is going to get worse because he will be in the drivers seat. 

 

Are you kidding?  Who do you think was in the drivers seat before?  Because the City and the County certainly weren't. 

This whole conversation comes down to one thing; do we want to play the Game of Favor or not? Society favors the wealthy, the athletic, the beautiful. Always has.

 

In our particular little corner of the Game we are talking public subsidies to renovate the Q. One side says it's not fair to give billionaires breaks and they are absolutely correct. Public money is better spent elsewhere when arenas can cost up to a billion dollars. The price of tickets, food, and parking can be ridiculous and athletes/entertainers make crazy salaries. The other side says, fair or not that's simply the price of admission to the Game of Favor. And after all, they didn't make the rules so what can they do?

 

Of course there is the occasional exception so for the most part you can't change the Game, but you can choose to opt out. Individuals can choose principle and opt out by not buying tickets. Cities can also choose to opt out by not building arenas/stadiums. We have a choice.

 

Just remember one thing, if an individual chooses to opt out they won't see the event but if a city opts out at some point the event won't be available to see. Choose wisely.

 

Right or wrong has nothing to do with it. If you want to play you have to pay.

 

I agree, Cleveland should pay.  I think a renovated Q will be great.  Not that the Q is bad right now, and no one was really complaining last year when it held a major event.  But it's nice to have new things, right?  Invest in it, Cleveland.  At the same time, I think the owner should do more.  There are a lot of bad stadium deals around the country, and I think Cleveland needs to be smart about this one.  With what Dan Gilbert has done in Detroit, he can certainly do more for one arena rehab.

 

As we type on this forum now, Dan Gilbert has gone from paying for 1/2 of this out of his pocket, plus renovating a bunch of community centers with new basketball courts, to paying $0.00 and not doing a thing.  IMO if the negotiations restart eventually, his deal is going to get worse because he will be in the drivers seat.

 

Cleveland should continue to settle then? 

This all just points to the silliness of tying any of the sports facilities to the city's finances. These are regional amenities. Should have been funded and managed by multi-county authorities from the beginning.

If you honestly believe NuCLEus has nothing to do with the Q, then we're not even in the same stratosphere of logic MissinOhio[/member] .

 

Live Entertainment, who runs Louisville Live probably committed as a tenant because NuCLEus was in the suburbs... The hotel is being pitched aggressively because it is miles from the arena... got it.

 

Exactly.  This puts doubts in lenders, tenants and everything else connected to nuCLEus.  Some people can't see the bigger picture.

 

Lenders have been doubting NuCLEus from the beginning.  Where have you people been?  You're grasping for something that isn't even there.

Cleveland should continue to settle then? 

 

Absolutely not!  But this deal was negotiated in good faith with Gilbert.  He has learned that small forces of loudmouths can sink it.  So how willing do you think he'll be the next time around to make the same offer? 

If you honestly believe NuCLEus has nothing to do with the Q, then we're not even in the same stratosphere of logic MissinOhio[/member] .

 

Live Entertainment, who runs Louisville Live probably committed as a tenant because NuCLEus was in the suburbs... The hotel is being pitched aggressively because it is miles from the arena... got it.

 

Exactly.  This puts doubts in lenders, tenants and everything else connected to nuCLEus.  Some people can't see the bigger picture.

 

Lenders have been doubting NuCLEus from the beginning.  Where have you people been?  You're grasping for something that isn't even there.

 

This puts even MORE doubts in their eyes.  This isn't a grasp, it's a fact.