Are they required to provide ADA access to every part of the ball park?  ADA doesn't have access down behind the dugouts do they?

Are they required to provide ADA access to every part of the ball park?  ADA doesn't have access down behind the dugouts do they?

 

That was my question. The upper deck is no less ADA accessible now than it was with seats in those sections over the last 20 years.

In a lot of situations where it's not actually possible to make an entire complex ADA accessible (like in any stadium of any sort) the way they handle that is having some general ADA accessible seating which you see on the main entry level and then elevator access to the major destinations within the ballpark that aren't seating, such as the restaurants, bathrooms, etc. So basically it's possible to do everything in the ballpark, but your choice of seating locations is going to be a little limited.

Are they required to provide ADA access to every part of the ball park?  ADA doesn't have access down behind the dugouts do they?

 

That was my question. The upper deck is no less ADA accessible now than it was with seats in those sections over the last 20 years.

 

Yes the upper deck was ADA accessible before. Seats were provided that matched what patrons without disabilities had. The addition of the terrace boxes provides a different viewing that now does not accommodate an individual the same as any other.  I have included the ADA government guidelines. 

 

http://www.ada.gov/stadium.txt

 

  Wheelchair accessible seating is required.  At least one percent of the seating must

  be wheelchair seating locations.  Each wheelchair seating location is an open, level

  space that accommodates one person using a wheelchair and has a smooth, stable, and

  slip-resistant surface.

 

  Accessible seating must be an integral part of the seating plan so that people using

  wheelchairs are not isolated from other spectators or their friends or family. 

 

  A companion seat must be provided next to each wheelchair seating location.  The

  companion seat is a conventional seat that accommodates a friend or companion.

 

  Wheelchair seating locations must be provided in all areas including sky boxes and

  specialty areas.

 

  Removable or folding seats can be provided in wheelchair seating locations for use

  by persons who do not use wheelchairs so the facility does not lose revenue when not

  all wheelchair seating locations are ticketed to persons who use wheelchairs.

 

  Whenever more than 300 seats are provided, wheelchair seating locations must be

  provided in more than one location.  This is known as dispersed seating.  Wheelchair

  seating locations must be dispersed throughout all seating areas and provide a choice of

  admission prices and views comparable to those for the general public.

 

  Wheelchair seating locations must be on an accessible route that provides access

  from parking and transportation areas and that connects to all public areas, including

  concessions, restaurants, rest rooms, public telephones, and exits.

 

  Wheelchair seating locations must provide lines of sight comparable to those

  provided to other spectators.  In stadiums where spectators can be expected to stand

  during the show or event (for example, football, baseball, basketball games, or rock

  concerts), all or substantially all of the wheelchair seating locations must provide a line

  of sight over standing spectators.  A comparable line of sight, as illustrated in the figure

  below, allows a person using a wheelchair to see the playing surface between the heads

  and over the shoulders of the persons standing in the row immediately in front and over

  the heads of the persons standing two rows in front. 

 

Are they required to provide ADA access to every part of the ball park?  ADA doesn't have access down behind the dugouts do they?

 

That was my question. The upper deck is no less ADA accessible now than it was with seats in those sections over the last 20 years.

 

Yes the upper deck was ADA accessible before. Seats were provided that matched what patrons without disabilities had. The addition of the terrace boxes provides a different viewing that now does not accommodate an individual the same as any other. 

 

There are the same landing areas outside the tunnels to the concourse that are still accessible. Sure, the terrace boxes at the higher levels might not be accessible, but what's the difference between that and higher rows of seats not being accessible?

Are they required to provide ADA access to every part of the ball park?  ADA doesn't have access down behind the dugouts do they?

 

 

That was my question. The upper deck is no less ADA accessible now than it was with seats in those sections over the last 20 years.

 

Yes the upper deck was ADA accessible before. Seats were provided that matched what patrons without disabilities had. The addition of the terrace boxes provides a different viewing that now does not accommodate an individual the same as any other. 

 

There are the same landing areas outside the tunnels to the concourse that are still accessible. Sure, the terrace boxes at the higher levels might not be accessible, but what's the difference between that and higher rows of seats not being accessible?

 

 

Please read what I posted regarding ADA compliance. The terrace boxes are in violation

Yeah, I read it a number of possible ways, as other parts of the upper deck have handicapped seating, and there is the proper amount of seating throughout the ball park.  Again, while there is ADA seating in most areas behind the regular seating, it is in a specific area.

 

I think this paragraph is the out though:

 

Whenever more than 300 seats are provided, wheelchair seating locations must be

provided in more than one location.  This is known as dispersed seating.  Wheelchair

  seating locations must be dispersed throughout all seating areas and provide a choice of

  admission prices and views comparable to those for the general public.

 

This area is not a seating area.

 

 

^ I've read it a few times as well and don't see how the terraces are in violation.

The area is absolutely a seating/viewing area.  High top tables are being added and I for one do not see how a family member of mine in a wheelchair cannot have the same experience as I.  Even if I carried them up they cannot see over the railings.  That is an epic fail and the architects and engineers should be ashamed of that.  To follow ADA guidelines you cannot pick and choose what you want to see and follow.

^ I've read it a few times as well and don't see how the terraces are in violation.

 

Then please explain to me the area I highlighted on how the terraces are not in violation. 

It's likely considered part of the general seating of the stadium, of which the dispersion requirements are already met. In the eyes of code, this is just more seating. There are already handicap accessible upper deck seats that meet the requirements.

 

This isn't an architect or engineer's fault btw. We just do as we're asked. If there's anyone to blame it's the owners of the stadium for not wanting to spend the extra money regardless of code. Architects are only required to meet code and after that it's up to the client to decide whether or not they want to be good people.

^ I've read it a few times as well and don't see how the terraces are in violation.

 

Then please explain to me the area I highlighted on how the terraces are not in violation. 

 

You put a wheelchair in the same spots that you would at any other point in the upper deck. As seen in picture below:

 

 

There are no obstructed views from these sections.

So if I would so choose a family outing and wanted to use the terrace  boxes, my family member couldn't sit with us!  Here in lies the issue that part of the ballpark is closed off to people with disabilities.

Basically, yes. Code doesn't require it to be accessible because it's simply more seating, just in a different configuration.

 

But the owners could have gone above and beyond that to make them accessible but based on the incredibly awful finishes they chose it's not surprising they chose to not spend the extra money.

^ It also seems unreasonable to have to build elevators or ramps to access each of these terraces. There are other group spaces available at the ballpark as well.

It would definitely be hard. I'm honestly not even sure there's actually a legitimate way of making these accessible.

You wouldn't have to make them all accessible. You just have to make at least one of the boxes ADA. Listen, I am not  about a radical departure from what was designed just that people recognize the situation that has happened with the redesign of the ballpark.  If you make such changes than the domino effect begins  with codes. And yes architect and engineers should be held accountable. I work as a production designer for television events with live audiences and it is my job to follow all ADA rules.  The client should be informed of building codes by the people they hire. 

In this climate of political correctness, there is no way this major work was done without knowing that they were in compliance.  Let it go, you are wrong.

Dave, as an architect, no, we shouldn't be held accountable for things that are beyond our ability. We can only force code upon clients. Anything beyond that is out of our control. We can suggest it all we want, but if a client is against it, they're against it. Short of breaking contract with them and leaving the project, there's nothing we can do to force something upon a design.

 

And again, this is following code. Therefore the architects did what was required of them by code and what was asked of them by their client.

Explain how these are up to code. How do I get my family member into a new designated area for viewing and how does he watch the game over the solid rail? As an architect do you generally not follow ADA codes? Do you design facilities that are required by law to follow such codes? I know I am required.

Explain how these are up to code. How do I get my family member into a new designated area for viewing and how does he watch the game over the solid rail? As an architect do you generally not follow ADA codes? Do you design facilities that are required by law to follow such codes? I know I am required.

 

You get your family member there in the same way that you would have gotten them to row X in section 518...you don't. As I mentioned before, there are platforms near the entrances of each of these sections that are handicap accessible, just as they are in all parts of the upper deck. And, also as I a said before, there are other areas for group outings at the ballpark. You wouldn't plan a group event on one of these terraces if a member of your party is handicapped just as you wouldn't buy a ticket in row X in the upper deck either. Not every single part of the park needs to be ADA accessible.

TPH2

 

Those areas are designated from the before renovation era of Progressive Field.  A new area was designed that changes what was before considered ADA approved.  Redesign now indicates an entire new viewing area with standing room and hightop tables to sit at. Not one area of this alternate seating/standing takes into requirement ADA codes.  You state "You wouldn't plan a group event on one of these terraces if a member of your party is handicapped just as you wouldn't buy a ticket in row X in the upper deck either. Not every single part of the park needs to be ADA accessible." 

That is exactly why codes are in place so everyone is allowed the same rights as you.  The upper right field deck does NOT afford  me to ever enjoy an event with my family member in a wheelchair.    By law all seating options must have the same options available as you or I.  Where in the park are the other areas for group outings with high tables with seats and standing designated for wheelchair accessible during the game?

In this climate of political correctness, there is no way this major work was done without knowing that they were in compliance.  Let it go, you are wrong.

 

Prove me wrong. Where is the form/sign off that these renovations ADA compliant? Sure,they are OSHA approved but not wheelchair accessible.  .  I hope one of your family members never has to deal with issues of others whom deserve the same respect as you.

If they are not wheelchair accessible, sit where they are.  Just stop already.  Quit playing the victim.  Not everyone can do what everyone else can.

 

What if I want my handicapped family member to sit in her wheelchair next to me behind the dugout?  She can't!!

ADA is a civil rights law. From my transportation experience, rulings have come down in the past 15 years that any transportation vehicle or facility that is accessible to an able-bodied passenger must also be accessible to a disabled passenger. A disabled person cannot be discriminated against. So, for example, every car on a train must be as accessible to a disabled person as it is for an able-bodied person. Sometimes the cost of achieving this accessibility is so high it prevents the availability of transportation and thus defeats any accessibility. So if you want a variance, you have to show why equal access is not possible or otherwise creates a hardship.

 

I don't know how the transportation polices apply to a baseball stadium. One could argue that since baseball is non-essential while transportation is, the rules may be less aggressive. But you also cannot discriminate against a disabled person under ADA.

In situations where there's no realistic way to make an entire facility ADA compliant, the solution is to offer handicap accessible seats dispersed evenly throughout the facility as to allow someone handicapped to sit in any general area they want to.

 

The reason this doesn't need to be compliant is because it's just part of the already-existent upper deck. Which already has handicap accessible seating. Therefore no additional ADA compliant seating was required. Technically this project, as it reduced the seating capacity of the stadium, actually reduces the amount of required ADA accessible seats in the stadium.

 

There will always be exceptions to ADA accessibility. Look at basically every old storefront in the country. One or two steps up. Not ADA compliant but no realistic manner in which to make it so.

 

An elevator would never be a realistic option for access to these so the other manner would be a ramp. A ramp under ADA can be a maximum of a 1:12 slope with a 5' landing every 30'. How much vertical heights is there between the entrance to the upper deck and the top of these? 30'? That means you'd have to have 420 feet of ramp. Imagine that. 420 feet of ramp winding its way up to the top of these. Where would that even go? That's the reason not every seat has to be accessible, but rather just every seating area in general.