The distance in miles from Crittenden, KY to Franklin, OH would be very similar on both I-75 and this proposed bypass (~67 miles).

 

But, as somebody pointed out a long time ago, the congestion on the Brent Spence Bridge (and 471) is not caused by people "passing through" Cincinnati... it's caused by commuters and travel within the city area. A bypass won't help any of that.

"Bbbbbbut constant loads of car parts going from Detroit to Florida!"

So ridiculous. This area does not need another giant bypass loop highway. It needs better transit.

This idea is terrible.  Just use the tolls to fix the existing bridge and make the out of towners pay for it.  If you're a local and you can't figure out how to drive across one of the 4 other bridges you deserve to pay the toll. 

"Bbbbbbut constant loads of car parts going from Detroit to Florida!"

 

The inclusion of lake erie here is annoying, but this is a cool map- https://www.maps4office.com/us-ohio-map-county-population-density/

^Except that it lists Hamilton County as 80,000 when it's closer to 800,000

Also, Williams County is listed as a population of 375. It should be 37,500. This website sucks. Cool idea, but it's pretty terrible.

Some thoughts on the routing:

 

Whatever is left of Red Lion will be destroyed for this bypass.

 

Huge sprawl development potential from Franklin/Middletown to Morrow.

 

This will really mess up Lebanon and the I-71 & Rt 48 exit there.

 

The Sierra Club should be upset that it crosses the Little Miami River.

 

Is there really going to be housing subdivision demand in Goshen? Williamsburg? New Richmond!? California KY!!!?

 

The terrain on the KY side is going to be a challenge.

 

It links up too far south of I-71 to be of use for anyone wanting to go to and from Louisville.

 

But anyway yeah lets make it rain for the suburban track housing developers!

 

^Except that it lists Hamilton County as 80,000 when it's closer to 800,000

Density map.  Some numbers do seem off though.

That would make me hate the Ohio DOT even more if they ever went through with this project, it is simply for sprawl development as others have said.  As if I couldn't hate them even more with the Opportunity Corridor in Cleveland, the enemic help from the state in transit funding, and the Portsmouth bypass.  I highly, highly doubt this gets serious consideration after they do an analysis of the costs.  Plain and simple, the Cincinnati metro needs to figure out the BS Bridge and it's corridor.

It's not really progressed with ODOT; it's a RFP for KYTC, which is only pursuing this pipe dream at the insistence of the new Republican Governor Bevin. The project has been discussed off-and-on for over a decade and other similar proposals, such as a southern tolled bypass of northern Kentucky was dismissed as too costly.

 

Considering that KYTC is cutting back projects because of a drop in the state gas tax - which is pegged to inflation, this project has zero chance of being built unless it is fully tolled in Kentucky. That won't happen under a Bevin administration. The only reason that the Ohio River Bridges project in Louisville/southern Indiana is progressing, with its $4 billion price tag, is because of tolls, a decision decided under the previous administration (Democratic Governor Beshear).

Not to mention that no matter how much Kentucky pushes it, less than 1/3 of the mileage is actually in Kentucky, so without buy-in from Ohio it's kind of pointless. 

It's pointless from the perspective of the public good -- but I can see the whole arc as an excuse just to build the section in KY so that developers can start carving up that area of Campbell County.  The Licking River Valley and Ohio River views in that area are spectacular. 

I will only support the Eastern Bypass plan if they agree to designate it as I-71, and allow the existing I-71 within the I-275 loop to be downgraded and turned into a parkway.

I will only support the Eastern Bypass plan if they agree to designate it as I-71, and allow the existing I-71 within the I-275 loop to be downgraded and turned into a parkway.

 

That would be a disaster. You can't be serious.

 

** the Eastern Bypass is also so incredibly stupid, I can't believe it's gaining any traction. Does 275 not already serve as a bypass around the city and BSB? Who would ever use this road? Most people I know already think of Eastgate, Milford, Loveland and all those other 275 east side burbs as being really far out there and not convenient to anything, so is there really that big  of a market for people moving that much further east?

North bound, eliminate the 4th street on ramp to allow 4 lanes to continue north on the BSB and to eliminate the bottleneck north of 12th street and excessive lane switching on the bridge. Covington natives (myself included) can use local bridges to access Cincinnati and the Clay Wade to 3rd to Central Ave to access I-75 North.

 

South bound, allow 3 lanes of I-75 to continue south to the bridge, eliminating one of the lanes of I-71 connecting over. Re-designate I-471 as I-71, and have three lanes go to the Big Mac Bridge, while only one lane exits to connect to Fort Washington Way. Two lanes can stay in the Lytle Tunnel I guess, but only one should be designated as an exit-ony to limit back ups from I-71 to I-75 south. Widen the ramp from the new I-275/I-71 in Erlanger so that 2 lanes can continue onto I-71/I-75 southbound.

 

As an option 2, to appease the housing developers in southern Campbell and Kenton Counties, extend this new I-71/I-471 down into Campbell county, cross over the Licking near Alexandria/Visalia, and connect to the existing I-71 I-75 interchange so that they never have to share a road and simply intersect in Boone County.

 

I think with not very much investment and some ramp re-work and new designations including the elimination of I-471 we could really help the BSB traffic bottlenecks and save tons of money. If you threw a bone to the extension of I-471 it would still be much less work than the proposed Eastern Bypass, wouldn't require a new Ohio river bridge, and could potentially gain support from Kentucky's powers that be.

This metro really doesn't need any more rural land opened up, even if it's just in Kentucky.  We have the lowest housing prices in the first world because we have way more houses than this population needs.  That's why tons of them are vacant or have been bulldozed inside the 275 loop.  Even biking around the Visalia area, well outside 275, there are many abandoned houses out in the countryside.  This was accelerated by the 2009 collapse. 

 

We don't need more houses.  We don't need more houses.  We don't need more houses. 

For the record, I completely agree on not needing more homes or any more sprawl. I was just trying to come up with a less-awful solution, and one that didn't affect Ohio or any new bridges. I believe that with re-worked ramps, designations and the existing bridge infrastructure we could greatly improve the situation. The billions needed for BSB rebuild or Eastern Bypass should be put towards mass transit and light rail and used to increase density and accessiblity of the existing 275 loop, but for the sake of this discussion thread I just wanted to put an option 2 out there.

The good news is that nowadays tract housung dosen't get built until it is sold. Since all that extra, unneeded sprawl from the 2000s destroyed the economy, banks won't lend to tract homebuilders to build unsold houses.

^ They're doing tear-downs in Montgomery and Madeira instead.

We have the lowest housing prices in the first world because we have way more houses than this population needs. 

 

Wow, that actually might be true

You can't blame these developers and home builders for doing what they do since the federal government encourages it by assuming the risk.  Not just new suburbs but beachfront property as well.  That later serves no necessary purpose whatsoever and should be considered a national disgrace.  Over and over again people bought up thousands of acres of useless, uninsurable land along the Atlantic and Gulf coasts back in the immediate postwar years and then cashed-out big time.  Places that were developed in the 70s and 80s like Hilton Head, SC will eventually get totally destroyed by a hurricane and the federal government will pay 50%+ of the insurance claims. 

 

https://www.propublica.org/article/four-ways-the-government-subsidizes-risky-coastal-rebuilding

 

All of the development of the southern coasts came at the expense of the former resorts on the Great Lakes and even inland resort towns like French Lick, Indiana.  If people are on vacation in one place, they're not vacationing in another at the same time.  And few people own more than one vacation home -- lakefront cottages sitting on a few acres on the Michigan coast often sell for under $100k. 

 

Meanwhile, the feds' guarantee of the 30-year mortgage is the primary mechanism that enables continued development of large suburban homes in metros like Cincinnati that have so many existing homes that several hundred are torn down every year and thousands more sit vacant.  If Freddie/Fannie started only guaranteeing 15 years on homes above 2,000 sq feet, we'd see a lot of the superfluous home construction cease because people would be paying $500-1,000 more per month for the same house. 

 

 

 

So last year I would've said that this goofy Eastern Bypass idea had no chance of happening. But given that the new administration might prioritize public-private partnerships as part of their infrastructure plan, I think it's quite possible that a private company may build this as a toll road. The question is, would anyone actually take this bypass if it were built as a toll road? Since it doesn't provide any new connectivity, I can see most people avoiding it and taking alternate routes (which already exist, BTW).

I doubt it would work as a toll road. In fact I think the only way it would ever see much traffic at all would be if it the Brent Spence bridge was tolled - that might actually incentivize some through traffic to take such a circuitous route.

Well the Portsmouth Bypass is a public-private partnership but not a toll road.  The private company will maintain the road.  It's a total scam and a joke. 

^I expect nothing less from Appalachian highway projects.

Except that practically most of the ADHS corridors (the bypass is part of Corridor B-1) have been completed, per the federal Appalachian Development Act of 1965. The remaining segments, like this one, are incredibly expensive to construct and will either be constructed piecemeal (e.g. Corridor H/US 48 in West Virginia), or with public-private partnerships (e.g. Corridor B-1/US 23 in Ohio). I'm not sold on public-private partnerships as they lead to unnecessary funding issues, like what's happened to Interstate 69 north of Bloomington, where there has been significant issues in getting projects completed because of the partnership structure.

Ohio has a new transportation bill and guess what's in there!

 

The bill directs the Ohio Department of Transportation to study the proposed Eastern Bypass of Cincinnati with the Kentucky Transportation Cabinet. It does not say how much Ohio will spend on the study, but the amount would come out of a $26 million pot of money the state sets aside for research in fiscal year 2018.

The Cincy Chamber did a study on the region's attitudes toward transportation issues and found that 60% of the region is OK with tolls as a way to fund the new Brent Spence Bridge, and 72% prioritize fixing existing highways and bridges over expanding/building new ones. This should be the nail in the coffin for this ridiculous Eastern Bypass proposal.

Kentucky Gov. Matt Bevin backs the Eastern Bypass:

 

http://www.wcpo.com/news/region-northern-kentucky/cincy-eastern-bypass-picks-up-support-from-kentucky-gov-matt-bevin

Kentucky Gov. Matt Bevin backs the Eastern Bypass:

 

http://www.wcpo.com/news/region-northern-kentucky/cincy-eastern-bypass-picks-up-support-from-kentucky-gov-matt-bevin

 

That is such a ridiculous project.  The only sort of bypass I would be for is if I-471 became I-71 and was extended to the I-75/71 split.  Even then, I would have trouble supporting it unless it meant no new bridge.

^I'll repeat that while I think the developers would love the whole bypass, they'd be happy just to get the section in Kentucky connecting I-75 and US 27.  That would open the spectacular Licking River Valley near KY 536 (which I'd wager most Cincinnatians have never seen) to large-scale development. 

Jake, where abouts on I-75 to US-27 would that section cross over?  Probably around a 4-5 mile stretch?

I would assume (or hope) that it would be tied into the KY 536 project which will cross at the Visalia Bridge. I have also expressed many times that re-working I-471 to become I-71 through downtown and NKY, with only ramp work and no new bridge, would be the easiest option.

^I'll repeat that while I think the developers would love the whole bypass, they'd be happy just to get the section in Kentucky connecting I-75 and US 27.  That would open the spectacular Licking River Valley near KY 536 (which I'd wager most Cincinnatians have never seen) to large-scale development. 

 

There won't be much pressure for that as long as the banks continue to refuse lending for speculative sprawl development.

Jake, where abouts on I-75 to US-27 would that section cross over?  Probably around a 4-5 mile stretch?

 

Yeah I think near 536.  The hills are massive in that area, probably more dramatic than what I-275 travels through. 

Denver has had a privately-funded 46-mile toll bypass for 25+ years.  We aren't seeing a toll proposal for Cincinnati because the construction costs will be much, much higher.  A major bridge over the Ohio River and possibly a pretty significant one over the Licking.  Tons of blasting and grading in Kentucky. 

 

http://www.denverpost.com/2016/05/31/e-470-hits-25-year-mark-with-more-travelers-and-revenue/

The "study" requested by Governor Matt Bevin found that the Eastern Bypass would only reduce traffic on the Brent Spence Bridge by about 10%, so we still do need to build a new bridge. But of course, Bevin sez, "It is also imperative that we stay focused on the economic development potential of a bypass. To that end, I am requesting that a planning study for the Kentucky portion of an eastern bypass be included in the next highway plan."

 

The Kentucky Transportation Cabinet also estimated that the cost of the Eastern Bypass would be around $5.3 billion — that's 4.8× what advocates of the bypass claimed it would cost. Their website claims over and over that the bypass would only cost $1.1 billion. How did they arrive at this number?

 

Costs have been reviewed and validated by respected civil engineers including Richard Crist and others. Richard is a registered professional engineer and former contractor having built more than 300 miles of expressway, past president of the Kentucky Highway Contractor’s Association, and member of the Kentucky Transportation Hall of Fame.

 

Wow, the Kentucky Transportation Hall of Fame!

Well to be fair to Mr. Crist, I'm sure the Eastern Bypass would have cost $1.1 billion in the 1990's when he was working on the cut-in-the-hill...

Ouch. There was a study done on the feasibility of routing I-74 along the AA Highway, and another to construct a southern bypass in Kentucky. The former was not justified due to its very high costs and low projected traffic volumes, especially east of Maysville; the latter was not justified due to its very high costs, low traffic counts and the need for tolls.

Bet they could spend way less and have a way bigger economic impact if they built light rail connecting through to cincinnati instead of bypassing it with yet another highway.

 

I think Ky would want this because most of it would be in Ohio. Ohio would pay for most of the costs for it. It would give Ky a chance to loot more Ohio companies as well.

So is this ridiculous proposal dead now?

KTC is considering several options for a new east-west highway across Northern Kentucky:

 

Compare this to what was proposed in the Eastern Bypass map:

 

 

 

What would you dooooooooooo... for 10,000 VPD

 

Seems like a complete waste of money. It's literally a highway from nowhere to nowhere serving almost no one. If KYDOT has money to burn, how about throwing some at the BSB project.

There was a story a few days ago about how Gov. Bevin now says KY needs to increase their gas tax. Watch them increase the gas tax but spend it on awful sprawltastic projects like this one instead of fixing existing highways and bridges.

Kentucky loves building some highways. The state already has several basically pointless parkways that they're now re branding into I-69 and I-169 and I-66. They are all mostly former toll roads and some still have the old toll road ramps like this. Also since re-branding parts of the Purchase, Western Kentucky and Pennyrile Parkway to I-69 they've created some interesting intersections: Example.

Edited December 13, 20186 yr by cincydave8

Per the tweet above by Pat LaFleur, I don't know how anything other than Option 1 makes sense. The only narrative that seems convincing to me is separating 71 and 75 from ever sharing right-of-way, so 75 has all the lanes to cross Brent Spence and 71 has it's own new bridge. I still think this is a giant waste of money, but at least that argument seems logical on paper. Otherwise the argument appears to be, as stated above, to connect the middle of nowhere to the middle of nowhere for no apparent reason. 

14 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

Per the tweet above by Pat LaFleur, I don't know how anything other than Option 1 makes sense. The only narrative that seems convincing to me is separating 71 and 75 from ever sharing right-of-way, so 75 has all the lanes to cross Brent Spence and 71 has it's own new bridge. I still think this is a giant waste of money, but at least that argument seems logical on paper. Otherwise the argument appears to be, as stated above, to connect the middle of nowhere to the middle of nowhere for no apparent reason. 

 

The answer is that Henry Fischer is a Bevin donor. That's the only reason this is even being considered. 

 

One thing I think is funny about all this is that political scientists have studied the connection between population density and political preferences and have found that there is a very strong correlation between density and political preferences. Places with more than 800 people per square mile are much more likely to elect Democrats. So by opening up new land to development these Republican politicians are inviting Democrats to move to their communities. Down the road NKY will be a Democratic stronghold and these GOP elected officials can thank themselves for making it happen.