Everything inside the 275 loop is denser than 800 per mile, but outside of Covington, Newport and Bellevue none of the cities are Democratic. What's more likely is that this will increase ex-urban development creating more conservative population akin to Boone County and southern Kenton County. 

They'll probably be moving in from melted-down parts of the state with no jobs that are super Republican.

The sprawl building machine continues to grind on.

...and it's back again.

 

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/politics/2019/04/02/ohio-lawmakers-vote-gas-tax-hike/3312585002/

 

"Other changes to the state's two-year transportation budget include:...Requiring the Ohio Department of Transportation to study the Eastern Bypass by Dec. 31..."

Ah, yes. We can't afford the roads we have, but let's build another one. 

On 12/13/2018 at 10:08 AM, ucgrady said:

Everything inside the 275 loop is denser than 800 per mile, but outside of Covington, Newport and Bellevue none of the cities are Democratic. What's more likely is that this will increase ex-urban development creating more conservative population akin to Boone County and southern Kenton County. 

 

Sorry. I didn't see your response to this back in December. The 800 per square mile rule is at the county level of analysis. So Boone County is at 349 per square mile. Kenton actually exceeds the threshold but it is one of only a handful of counties in the US that are outliers. Republicans have a well oiled machine in these counties but it is only a matter of time before national trends make their way to NKY. Trump got a lower percentage of the vote in Ludlow, Dayton, and Ft. Thomas than a typical GOP candidate. I predict those places swing left in 2020 and beyond as more young families move in to be close to downtown Cincinnati.

^ Eh, I wouldn't be so sure about that. Look at the fine youth of Cov Cath as an example of who we're dealing with in NKY...

4 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

 

Sorry. I didn't see your response to this back in December. The 800 per square mile rule is at the county level of analysis. So Boone County is at 349 per square mile. Kenton actually exceeds the threshold but it is one of only a handful of counties in the US that are outliers. Republicans have a well oiled machine in these counties but it is only a matter of time before national trends make their way to NKY. Drumpf got a lower percentage of the vote in Ludlow, Dayton, and Ft. Thomas than a typical GOP candidate. I predict those places swing left in 2020 and beyond as more young families move in to be close to downtown Cincinnati.

Agreed, especially on Ft. Thomas as more reformed-Catholic young families move there for their good public schools to avoid sending their children to private Catholic schools. 

1 minute ago, edale said:

^ Eh, I wouldn't be so sure about that. Look at the fine youth of Cov Cath as an example of who we're dealing with in NKY...

Highlands has historically hated and been rivals with Cov Cath, which while un-important in the grand scheme of things could make liberal minded people think about moving to Ft. Thomas or Ft. Mitchell  instead of sending their kids to Cov Cath. Covington and Newport are hurt by their bad schools because the same liberal minded urbanites who want to live there, don't want to send their kids to bad schools, but also don't want to send their kids to Catholic schools where they get heavy doses of pro-life/anti-abortion at best, and racist remarks at worst (speaking from first hand experience). In my limited sample size many of my NKY friends who graduated from Catholic highschools are moving to the two Forts for their schools. 

 

Regardless of political maneuvering in the suburbs, the Eastern Bypass makes no sense as a Bypass, and therefore is a waste of time and money.

18 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

Regardless of political maneuvering in the suburbs, the Eastern Bypass makes no sense as a Bypass, and therefore is a waste of time and money.

 

Right. It's literal only purpose would be to open up land for new development. 

2 hours ago, osu97gp said:

...and it's back again.

 

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/politics/2019/04/02/ohio-lawmakers-vote-gas-tax-hike/3312585002/

 

"Other changes to the state's two-year transportation budget include:...Requiring the Ohio Department of Transportation to study the Eastern Bypass by Dec. 31..."

 

Zombie road project rises from the grave. 

2 hours ago, osu97gp said:

...and it's back again.

 

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/politics/2019/04/02/ohio-lawmakers-vote-gas-tax-hike/3312585002/

 

"Other changes to the state's two-year transportation budget include:...Requiring the Ohio Department of Transportation to study the Eastern Bypass by Dec. 31..."

 

Didn’t state government have a come-to-Jesus moment about new roads and the need to focus on maintenance for existing roads in the lead-up to this gas tax hike? Did I dream that or is that out the window already? 

Edited April 3, 20196 yr by thebillshark

When new money becomes available, “fix it first” goes out the window.

Thanks to COAST member Tom Brinkman, Ohio will spend millions of dollars to study the proposed Eastern Bypass again. It's funny how their "fiscally conservative" views only apply when it comes to spending millions on urban transportation projects. When it comes to spending billions on a new interstate through Clermont County farmland... ::crickets::

 

Quote

We're going to study Cincinnati’s Eastern Bypass. Again.

 

The transportation to-do list is long around here. There’s the “functionally obsolete” Brent Spence Bridge, the crumbling Western Hills Viaduct and the struggling bus system, which is running out of money and badly in need of a boost.

 

Add to the list for 2019: The Eastern Bypass – a proposed outer loop around the current outer loop that could potentially help ease congestion and spur new development farther away from the city's core. [...]

 

Rep. Tom Brinkman, R-Mount Lookout, pushed to get the study included in this year’s transportation budget. He said it’s all about getting Ohio and Kentucky to work together. The bypass would be a multi-state project, so it doesn’t make sense to plan in isolation.

 

“We have to force the transportation departments to talk together,” Brinkman said. “That’s what my bill is trying to do. Let’s discuss it.”

 

Brinkman is still in favor of building a new Brent Spence Bridge, but he thinks the bypass should come first and that the new Brent Spence should be smaller.

 

That article is also a great example of how the Enquirer does an awful job of writing about topics like this. The wishy-washy, both-sidesy phrases like, "Depending on whom you ask, this is either a great idea or just one more example of wasting money on a pet project."

 

Why not talk about the results of the study that Kentucky already did on this project, which found that it would divert basically no traffic away from the BSB?

 

Then again, the Enquirer's ad revenue comes mostly from car dealerships and sprawl developers. Can't bite the hand that feeds you, I guess.

I'd be WAY less enthusiastic to pay for any upcoming tax levies for infrastructure if the eastern Bypass is still alive, even is study form. Also the way he says it above Brinkman treats it as an inevitable thing and that the only question for his bill is to make those planning it work together, "He said it’s all about getting Ohio and Kentucky to work together. The bypass would be a multi-state project, so it doesn’t make sense to plan in isolation" WHy do we keep building out if we know the bad results and can't pay for what we have already.....oh yea, got to keep the developer and car lobbyist friends rolling in dough.

 

Edited April 10, 20196 yr by SleepyLeroy
me punctuate bad

Not only does this bypass not even touch Brinkman's district, but if it is completed it will actively HURT people in his district by moving development and infrastructure dollars out of their area and leave them neglected. Why would he advocate for this? My only thought is that he knows that Hamco is moving left and he's not long for this world as an elected official here. He can just move out to Clermont County and tout his commitment to bringing investment there and run for office there in the future. 

The bypass is certainly a bad idea and an unfortunate distraction, but I wouldn't get too upset about it at this point.

 

ODOT and the state study things all the time that never go anywhere (for better and for worse). It's a common legislative request to study this or that. ODOT, federal highway, etc. are in no position to fund a major project like this, and are largely focused on preserving existing assets.  The state transportation budget and gas user fee increase only provides enough money to help the state keep up with inflation costs, debt service, maintenance, and very little for major new projects. Unless they've retracted it, OKI had passed a resolution prioritizing the BSB over the Eastern bypass. For this to happen, you'd need large-scale regional support, some type of new revenue source (e.g. tolls), and total cooperation from Kentucky. 

 

The points on their website ( http://www.cincyeasternbypass.com/ ) are laughably dumb... below is one of their main selling points:

 

I-75 is not a straight line. It has many twists and bends, steep hills, an intense amount of interchanges, and often congestion.

 

Apparently these people love facts & data to support their conclusions rather than blind intuition and feelings.

 

If you guys notice this proposal's northern trajectory between 71 and 75 in Warren county, I don't understand why they don't show using OH-48, which is built just below highway grade as part of their plan. I doubt the tea partiers of Springboro, the same crowd they are trying to court with this proposal, would be happy with a highway in their backyard.

 

Power to whoever is backing this for being that stupid.

 

Crackpot time: What if instead of an Eastern Bypass we had a Western Bypass? Cincinnati has two bridge issues it can't afford, the Western Hills Viaduct (WHV) and the Brent Spence Bridge (BSB), so why not fix both problems at once, and avoid doing the ex-urban Eastern Bypass. Where I-75 and the current WHV meet, I-75 turns and crosses the current location of the WHV with a new interchange in Fairmount, it then turns South parallel to the Millcreek until US 50, an interchange with 50/6th Street Viaduct, then 75 uses US 50's right of way until a new bridge crossing to KY-20 by the airport. At this point 75 loops around the west side of the airport and Burlington, and runs south to the current 71/75 split. FWIW the existing section of I-75 from WHV to BSB would be renamed 475 and only connect to BSB as an on-ramp. Existing BSB would become I-71's bridge. 

 

This would solve:

1. Congestion on BSB which would become only an I-71 bridge.

2. Interstate access to the Westside by replacing the WHV and running along current US 50.

3. Replacing the Anderson Ferry with a bridge.

4. Providing direct North/South interstate access to the airport and opening up more developable land near Amazon.

5. Separating I-71 and I-75 so that they cross in southern Boone County and never have to share a right of way. 

 

We would be in a completely different situation right now if the western portion of I-275 was built closer to the city instead of taking an extravagant detour into Indiana. This would enable I-275 to actually function as a bypass and take a significant amount of traffic off of the BSB. It would be extremely difficult and expensive to build a connector here today without buying dozens of suburban homes.

The reason why the Eastern by pass gets so much attention is because the growth has been on the East side in both KY and OH.

 

All highways will create some sprawl, but I do like the West side plan.  If anything I would connect it over 71 into 75 further South.

It would really open up the West side of Cincinnati and help improve access to Delhi, Price Hill, Westwood for redevelopment and investment. It would encourage more fill in development on the West Side of Hamilton County. It would also as you point out, make Boone County much more developable and help with airport growth and encourage more businesses around the airport because of the West Side growth.

 

The one concern I would have about your model and idea is that it may not take into account Boone's topography which could cause issues and also certain national parks like Big Bone Lick, etc, may be located in your right of way.

 

This is what I'd do... it wouldn't tear up any neighborhoods and really improve interstate access for the west side.

 

I'd leave it as a "super street" grade road with a 55mph speed limit rather than a full highway.

It's poorly drawn, but I'd include an interstate grade interchange to US 50 (which is built to almost highway grade itself).

I'd also include:

 - A bridge over the OH river and KY-8

 - Improvements to KY-20 to withstand increased traffic down to KY-8

 - A traffic circle at the intersection of Terminal Drive and Delhi Pike

 - A Michigan Left or similar interchange at Terminal Drive / Petersburg Rd. to keep traffic from clogging down to I-275.

 

What would be really awesome is if some type of rail infrastructure could be included along this road and across its bridge too for future mass transit to CVG.

Edited April 11, 20196 yr by SWOH

A Westside bridge really is a no brainer in this area.   I believe it was Jake who pointed it out before, but Glenway Crossing in Western Hills is closer to 275 in NKY than it is in Ohio.   ODOT & KDOT spending on this would have much better ROI results of alleviating Brent Spence traffic than any of this Eastern Bypass crap.   Where and why are our leaders on either side of the river silent on this?????

Edited April 12, 20196 yr by oakiehigh

I thought there was debate about that concept 20 + years ago but there was not the political will to do it and the Brent Spence Replacement took priority at the time. We see how far that has gone.

^Yea, a bridge was proposed at Bender Rd and Rt 50 on the Ohio side.   Amazing to think where we would be today had that been built.

18 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

The reason why the Eastern by pass gets so much attention is because the growth has been on the East side in both KY and OH.

 

All highways will create some sprawl, but I do like the West side plan.  If anything I would connect it over 71 into 75 further South.

It would really open up the West side of Cincinnati and help improve access to Delhi, Price Hill, Westwood for redevelopment and investment. It would encourage more fill in development on the West Side of Hamilton County. It would also as you point out, make Boone County much more developable and help with airport growth and encourage more businesses around the airport because of the West Side growth.

 

The one concern I would have about your model and idea is that it may not take into account Boone's topography which could cause issues and also certain national parks like Big Bone Lick, etc, may be located in your right of way.

 

In Ohio the growth has been primarily to the North and East, but in KY the growth has been in Boone and southern Kenton. I agree that I didn't take any topography into account and driving to Rabbit Hash or Big Bone will let you know that this part of the county is very hilly. Big Bone is much closer to the river than the highways, so it would remain West of any proposed alignment with the existing 71/75 split. 

15 hours ago, SWOH said:

This is what I'd do... it wouldn't tear up any neighborhoods and really improve interstate access for the west side.

 

I'd leave it as a "super street" grade road with a 55mph speed limit rather than a full highway.

It's poorly drawn, but I'd include an interstate grade interchange to US 50 (which is built to almost highway grade itself).

I'd also include:

 - A bridge over the OH river and KY-8

 - Improvements to KY-20 to withstand increased traffic down to KY-8

 - A traffic circle at the intersection of Terminal Drive and Delhi Pike

 - A Michigan Left or similar interchange at Terminal Drive / Petersburg Rd. to keep traffic from clogging down to I-275.

 

What would be really awesome is if some type of rail infrastructure could be included along this road and across its bridge too for future mass transit to CVG.

 

There is about a 330 ft elevation difference between US50 and the top of the hill on the Ohio side. I’d do a high bridge from 212 in KY directly to Neeb Road at College of Mt St Joseph. Then I’d build a new mile long connector heading east down towards US50 that would intersect near Fenimore Street. That would still be pretty steep grade, 330/5280=6.25%. Bender Rd would serve as the US50 connector from the west. 

Edited April 12, 20196 yr by thebillshark

This was a thing as recently as 2013.

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2013/10/29/in-final-state-of-the-city-mallory.html

I was looking through the Enquirer archives for old Columbia Parkway articles and came across this amazing map from Feb 27th 1970.  It is a little hard to read since some of the nuance between shades of gray is pretty hard to tell from the scan.  The "Outer Belt" is insane.  The eastern half of the belt almost matches up exactly with the eastern bypass route.

Columbus had an Outer-Outerbelt proposed as well in those days. They were totally off the wall. Back then more people lived in rural ares but far fewer lived in exurbs or ribbon development which made them a tougher sell at the time. This is pre-$600 toilet seats so cost didn't disqualify the proposals right off the bat.

23 minutes ago, osu97gp said:

I was looking through the Enquirer archives for old Columbia Parkway articles and came across this amazing map from Feb 27th 1970.  It is a little hard to read since some of the nuance between shades of gray is pretty hard to tell from the scan.  The "Outer Belt" is insane.  The eastern half of the belt almost matches up exactly with the eastern bypass route.

 

 

There was a simultaneous plan for a gigantic Washington-DC type rapid transit system.  50+ miles with about 25 miles of subway and elevated construction.  Federal infrastructure spending in the 1960s was massive and continued through the first half of the 1970s until inflation reduced what could be built with allocated funds.  Then Reagan showed up in 1980 and the party was over.  Yet the debt mysteriously tripled despite the non-renewal of UMTA (the federal allocation that built MARTA, Miami Metrorail, Baltimore Subway, NYC Second Ave. subway, etc.), the bill that was expected to be periodically renewed like the transportation bills.   

^It went to Star Wars

That 1970 map looks like a lot of the initial intercity highway and beltway plans that were drawn up in the 1940s and were actually fairly close to what was in fact built.  Those plans were pretty much just made up based on very little actual analysis, but once those lines were drawn they were relentlessly persistent. 

1 hour ago, jjakucyk said:

That 1970 map looks like a lot of the initial intercity highway and beltway plans that were drawn up in the 1940s and were actually fairly close to what was in fact built.  Those plans were pretty much just made up based on very little actual analysis, but once those lines were drawn they were relentlessly persistent. 

 

There is the ultra-mega postwar plan in the rare book section at the main library, on the top floor of the skywalk.  That one includes the bright idea to dam up the Great Miami River to create a port.  At that time they were thinking that container transfers to barges would be figured out and that containers would be brought up from New Orleans and down from the Great Lakes on barges.  So they thought of that around 1948 but not railroad double-stacking.  Or the disappearance of passenger rail that freed up all of that capacity for freight, even before the double-stacking. 

23 hours ago, JYP said:

This was a thing as recently as 2013.

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2013/10/29/in-final-state-of-the-city-mallory.html

 

Interesting, never realized there was a proposal for a bridge from the airport across the river to the west side already... amazing to think where we would be if Qualls was mayor instead of Cranley.

 

Seems like a bridge in this area would be at least 80% cheaper than building a giant unnecessary Eastern Bypass highway.

Also it'd tear down a lot fewer houses and disrupt a lot fewer people's lives.

On 4/11/2019 at 6:37 PM, SWOH said:

On 4/12/2019 at 9:47 AM, thebillshark said:

 

There is about a 330 ft elevation difference between US50 and the top of the hill on the Ohio side. I’d do a high bridge from 212 in KY directly to Neeb Road at College of Mt St Joseph. Then I’d build a new mile long connector heading east down towards US50 that would intersect near Fenimore Street. That would still be pretty steep grade, 330/5280=6.25%. Bender Rd would serve as the US50 connector from the west. 

 

That is true, and a really good point.

Access down to US 50 (which would be critical to making any kind of proposal like this work) would be really tricky with the massive elevation drop.

 

Your proposal sounds good and workable for sure, but it seems like if this were to ever happen there'd be a lot of pushback from Mount St. Joseph.

 

The more I look at the map, the more I wonder if it'd make more sense to tie in at Minneola instead?

 

The bridge would essentially replace the Anderson Ferry because it'd be located right over top of its current path.

 

 

1 hour ago, SWOH said:

 

That is true, and a really good point.

Access down to US 50 (which would be critical to making any kind of proposal like this work) would be really tricky with the massive elevation drop.

 

Your proposal sounds good and workable for sure, but it seems like if this were to ever happen there'd be a lot of pushback from Mount St. Joseph.

 

The more I look at the map, the more I wonder if it'd make more sense to tie in at Minneola instead?

 

The bridge would essentially replace the Anderson Ferry because it'd be located right over top of its current path.

 

 

 

Yeah, the dilemma is low bridge vs. high bridge. If it’s a high bridge, needs to be a connector down to US 50 on the Ohio side. If it’s a low bridge, needs to be a connector  up the hill on the KY side where there would also be a 300 ft elevation difference.

 

Not sure what the pros and cons of each are, especially cost. A high bridge might serve the West Side better because it wouldn’t rely on the winding downhill portion of Anderson Ferry Rd. to connect to the rest of the road network. But then it might be slightly more cumbersome for someone trying to get downtown from the airport or someone using the bridge as an alternate to the Brent Spence. 

 

Mt St Joseph might object to the idea, but it could also be tremendously valuable to them almost magically relocating their isolated campus to an exit off of I-275. 

The Jeremiah Morrow Bridge is 2,200 feet long with the longest span being 400 feet.  It is two 55-foot wide bridges and was built for $88 million. 

 

A new high bridge near the Anderson Ferry would need to be about 5,000 feet long and have one long span of at least 800 feet for the river navigation channel (box girders of this length have been built recently in China).  It would be a single bridge with a bridge deck at most 50 feet in width. 

 

So comparable, but still very different animals.   There also could be a toll placed on an Anderson Ferry Bridge. 

 

I would be that it will be the employers in Hebron who eventually push for this bridge because they are presently cut-off from a large nearby workforce. 

 

You could also do something like this and connect to Anderson Ferry Road rather than connecting to Neeb Road. Then beef up Anderson Ferry Road to provide a direct connection between the new bridge and US-50, and handle the extra traffic using the new bridge.

On 4/15/2019 at 11:13 AM, taestell said:

You could also do something like this and connect to Anderson Ferry Road rather than connecting to Neeb Road. Then beef up Anderson Ferry Road to provide a direct connection between the new bridge and US-50, and handle the extra traffic using the new bridge.

 

I missed this earlier... this is a really good idea.

Minimal impact to buildings, a decent amount of the grading is already done, plenty of room past the bridge to slope the entrance and exit from this road down to US 50 if needed.

It'd work well.

 

All we need is the political will to make this happen, or some influential group strong enough to oppose the Fischer Homes people and back it instead of the Eastern Corridor.

I don't know, seems like Big Ferry is in the pocket of ODOT, so they may shut this down before it gets too far.

When the Anderson Ferry and Fly, Ohio Ferry pool their resources they become formidable.

Glad to see Warren County doesn't want the eastern bypass to happen either...

 

https://www.daytondailynews.com/news/local/warren-county-officials-fear-potential-cincinnati-bypass/ynvvfqy43iihu1hbyhGnBI/?icmp=cb_widget

Yeah, I was honestly shocked to see that Republicans actually stood up to wasteful government spending.  I figured Warren County would be all over this.  It seems like the best way to kill this again would be to get Beshear in office in KY to stop the KYTC study from happening.

Bevin gesticulates in favor:

https://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/warren-county/lebanon/6-billion-for-a-highway-bypass-not-everyone-in-the-tri-state-thinks-its-a-good-idea

Every Cincinnati media outlet has a story about the Eastern Bypass this week despite the fact that there doesn't appear to be any new news about it. I guess they all just realized this proposal existed. They should read UrbanOhio more often.

Bevin's gone.  This could spell the end of the Eastern Bypass. 

WCPO.com: Eastern bypass research halted by ODOT

 

https://youtu.be/WR3NJsaslzA

This isn't specifically about the Eastern Bypass, but there was a discussion last week about Cincinnati's sprawl being fairly close to tapped out, and our city having a naturally-provided "greenbelt" given the hills in and around the city.

 

I made a quick map of the highways in the area, and places that are still viable for single-family development.  The teal areas are places that are already filling in, or seem like the next most obvious place for subdivisions to pop up.

 

-As Hamilton grows in popularity, we are likely to see a some more growth in the farm fields that used to surround it.  Specifically, Ross will fill out quickly, them some between US27 and US127 roads as well.

-West Chester and Mason are going to do what they're going to do.  The space between 75 and 71 will continue to fill out, I suspect all the way up to Caesar's Creek before it starts becoming way too far out there.

-The farm fields in Newtown will eventually be replaced, although flooding is probably an issue.

-There's some limited space left along 75/71 in NKY, but mostly filled out to the split at this point.

-We should count our lucky stars we don't have more highways in the area

 

There's tons of housing and empty teeth within 275, but outside of CitiRama, you barely ever see home-builders go here, simply because the returns are better on a flat piece of farm land in the burbs.  You can see why they wanted the Eastern Bypass created, the highway would have created tons of marketable lots out in the flat land to the east of the city where a highway currently doesn't exist.  I think that we will start seeing increasing subdivision home-builder activity within 275 in the 2030s.

Edited July 1, 20204 yr by 10albersa