Photo from @SharonCoolidge on Twitter. I'm guessing "Aquatics & Play Area" implies a splash ground and not a full pool. But I don't know.

 

Looks like they are proposing a garage under the entire Cutter Playground space.

Really not feeling this plan. Super disjointed and removes the possibility of infill around the park creating a continuous building wall which is beneficial to public spaces. The location of the basketball courts and the aquatics area are flat out bad and don't follow good urbanism practices. I'm disappointed a more cohesive space with boundaries that make sense in relation to surrounding buildings wasn't implemented in this plan.

 

The two large rectangular spaces though are nice. I just wish those were the only areas designated as park space and that the lawn on 13th was removed in favor of the basketball courts and aquatics space. The lawn at Cutter is more than adequate for a park of this size and consolidating those programs into a smaller area with better boundaries would benefit the community more.

I'm going to disagree with you regarding the basketball courts. I like that they are separate from the rest of the park. Basketball is loud and distracting from other park uses. I like that it isn't adjacent to the park and it's across the street.

 

I like the underground garage. I like continuing the walkway better through Woodward St, and I think this will be a huge improvement to the area.

 

I hope they move the pool house toward the aquatic area and keep it for restrooms. It's a great building. But I doubt they will keep it.

I can give you that. I still would rather that site be infill but it's at the very least a small area.

 

The whole Peaslee block though. It's just a terrible urban space. And filling in random bits with parts of a park isn't going to help.

Yeah, tearing down Peaslee and rebuilding a nice 4ish story building on the site that interacts with the park and 14th would be ideal. Maybe they wanted to but couldn't get agreement from Peaslee?

That's definitely possible. But building park infrastructure there is going to more or less make that possibility impossible in the future. That site could be a MASSIVE infill project that would activate the park like the Peaslee Center never could. It's a missed opportunity for one of the largest redevelopment sites in OTR.

By building the garage under the Cutter Playground, it leaves the possibility open for a future redevelopment of the Peaslee Center and the parking lot facing 14th.

While everyone is talking about possible peaslee redevelopment,etc does anyone know there intent?  I'd have to assume they plan on staying and being as uncooperative as possible but I'd be happy if someone has heard differently.

Since they're blowing everything up and money's flying around wildly they really could do an esplanade in the center of Sycamore like Piatt Park or Oakley Square. 

I'm confused about the garage beneath Cutter, since just today, Council approved financing for the SCPA renovation project, which will include a parking garage that would only serve the Alumni Lofts: http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2015/06/09/scpa-redevelopment-deal-gets-tweaks-to-benefit.html

 

The proposed parks levy only includes $5 million for the Ziegler Park renovation, which is not a lot if they intend to rebuild both Ziegler and Cutter, and certainly not enough to build an underground garage.... so presumably the garage beneath Cutter would have to be funded by 3CDC, or somebody else.

 

Anyways... I hope Council, 3CDC, and the Parks are all talking and have aligned on a vision for that area.

 

 

 

While everyone is talking about possible peaslee redevelopment,etc does anyone know there intent?  I'd have to assume they plan on staying and being as uncooperative as possible but I'd be happy if someone has heard differently.

 

Apparently, in some of 3CDC's very first plans, they wiped the Peaslee Center and their parking lot off the map. Peaslee was like, "uhhh, you know we own that land, right?" Which is not to say that they're being uncooperative... I'm sure 3CDC could give them an offer they could not refuse to get them to move out of their current building, if the plan was to build a new development facing 14th and backing up to the renovated park.

Apparently, in some of 3CDC's very first plans, they wiped the Peaslee Center and their parking lot off the map. Peaslee was like, "uhhh, you know we own that land, right?" Which is not to say that they're being uncooperative... I'm sure 3CDC could give them an offer they could not refuse to get them to move out of their current building, if the plan was to build a new development facing 14th and backing up to the renovated park.

 

That's fair, I've heard lots of talk about them but never anything from them one way or the other.  Here's hoping a garage at cutter would lessen the demand on the lots south of SCPA and we could see some movement on those sites.

This would feel so much better :(

 

We don't need three individual lawns. We need a playground, pool, basketball court, and some green space.

I like how you've re-established the secondary street grid with Yukon and Woodward (as long as they are built at a pedestrian scale)... but I don't think all that greenspace on the west side of Sycamore is the best use of the space.

 

 

CAGIS says the city owns almost everything north of 13th and west of Sycamore. I just assumed it was already park land. If it's not there's no reason to keep it.

CAGIS says the city owns almost everything north of 13th and west of Sycamore. I just assumed it was already park land. If it's not there's no reason to keep it.

 

<a href="http://peasleecenter.org/">The Peaslee Center</a> is at the corner of 14th and Sycamore. If you look at the layout in the original post of the Park's proposal, you'll see that (as of now) they aren't touching the Peaslee Center. My hope is that the City and 3CDC are in talks with the Peaslee Center to come up with a workable solution that would involve a new building at that site.

 

We don't need three individual lawns. We need a playground, pool, basketball court, and some green space.

 

True, but it we could re-establish the missing streets and then fill in the new spaces with these elements, that would be my preferred solution.

The Park's proposal already has Woodward St extending through as a "pedestrian walkway", which appears to run from Yukon to Broadway.

 

Really not feeling this plan. Super disjointed and removes the possibility of infill around the park creating a continuous building wall which is beneficial to public spaces. The location of the basketball courts and the aquatics area are flat out bad and don't follow good urbanism practices. I'm disappointed a more cohesive space with boundaries that make sense in relation to surrounding buildings wasn't implemented in this plan.

 

The two large rectangular spaces though are nice. I just wish those were the only areas designated as park space and that the lawn on 13th was removed in favor of the basketball courts and aquatics space. The lawn at Cutter is more than adequate for a park of this size and consolidating those programs into a smaller area with better boundaries would benefit the community more.

 

In fairness, the location of the basketball courts isn't anything new.  This overview is simply calling out the location of the 2 courts that already exist on that plot.

Hopefully before the pool is destroyed forever, we can have one last music festival in it.

Yeah I know, which is mostly why I know I won't enjoy it. I always feel they are poorly located when I'm over there.

Hopefully, during this process, the city can also consider converting 13th Street from one-way westbound to one-way eastbound. Right now, the intersection of 13th & Main is a disaster because westbound traffic on 13th crossing Main conflicts with eastbound traffic turning left onto Main. This could be solved by adding another phase to that light, but making 13th eastbound (east of Main) would solve it as well.

^I can't see them turning 13th east bound east of Main because of the jog--if you were traveling east on 13th, you would still have to go north to Liberty and then south on Sycamore to get to the other part of east 13th street, because the part east of Main is south of the other part.  (Essentially, you'd have a two-lane one-way street and both lanes would end up having to turn left on to Main anyway.) 

 

Because that section is south of the other section, wouldn't it make more sense to make 13th one-way Westbound, if we are doing anything one-way? 

^I can't see them turning 13th east bound east of Main because of the jog--if you were traveling east on 13th, you would still have to go north to Liberty and then south on Sycamore to get to the other part of east 13th street, because the part east of Main is south of the other part.  (Essentially, you'd have a two-lane one-way street and both lanes would end up having to turn left on to Main anyway.) 

 

Because that section is south of the other section, wouldn't it make more sense to make 13th one-way Westbound, if we are doing anything one-way?

 

No, you would be able to continue east on 13th across Main, despite the jog. Making 13th one-way Westbound would be returning it to what it was before.

 

I agree that the current setup is a disaster.

 

We don't need three individual lawns. We need a playground, pool, basketball court, and some green space.

 

True, but it we could re-establish the missing streets and then fill in the new spaces with these elements, that would be my preferred solution.

 

This idea is so much more elegant and simple. If the desired (and needed) recreation aspects could be integrated this would be a much more cohesive design than anything yet proposed. I also kinda like how Zeigler would then orient East-West, while Washington run North-South.

Release from 3CDC titled Third Community Input Session for Ziegler Park Scheduled: Design Team Seeking Feedback from Community for Proposed Renovation

 

As planning continues to progress for the renovation of Ziegler Park, the Cincinnati Park Board, Cincinnati Recreation Commission, City of Cincinnati, and 3CDC are hosting a third community input session to gain additional feedback from members of the community on the approach, layout and features for the proposed renovated park. The event is being held on Thursday, July 23 at 5 p.m. at the Woodward Theater, located at 1404 Main Street in Over-the-Rhine.

 

This will be the third community input session focusing on the renovation of the 1.41-acre park, located between 13th and 14th Streets, just west of the old School for Creative & Performing Arts and just south of the Peaslee Neighborhood Center. Initial design ideas for renovating the park were compiled and reviewed during two community input sessions in 2014, held in February and April. After hearing the community’s responses, the design team – including glaserworks (architect/urban planning), Human Nature (landscape architect) and Brandstetter Carroll (aquatics/civil engineering) – realized the need to reevaluate the scope of the project, specifically in regard to the community’s desire to both maintain and expand park amenities while meeting the parking demands of the neighborhood. Since that meeting, 3CDC and the design team, which added Perfido, Weiskopf, Wagstaff and Goettel, have been working to find feasible, effective ways of meeting the community’s requests.

 

This third public input session, which is expected to last approximately two hours, will be led by glaserworks, in conjunction with the rest of the design team. The intent of the meeting is to review the responses gathered during the two previous public workshops, explain how those ideas were incorporated into design concepts, and gather feedback on proposed plans.

 

Based on feedback from the third community input session, a preliminary master plan will be prepared and presented at a fourth such session, and then a final master plan will be developed and prepared for implementation.

Here are notes on the Pendleton neighborhood meeting with 3CDC this week. Sounds promising  :clap: Unfortunately I wasn't at the meeting, so can't give any further details!

 

Ziegler Park Renovation Update - Adam Gelter of 3CDC

Put parking garage under the green space at SCPA

Put green space back

Park board would own it

400 parking spaces

200 for residents

200 for community (120 more than what's currently there)

Expanding the park

Stopped garage short of the existing trees to keep area in tact

Public meeting on July 23 at 5p at Woodward Theater to gather public opinion

Garage entrance is north of the cross walk on Sycamore

north of steps where grade would change

Don't forget, a community input session is being held tomorrow at Woodward Theater!

I went to this meeting and I am about done with public meetings. The plan is good and has something for everyone- keeping basketball courts, new deep water pool, new splash playground, large green space keeping the tree grove, a huge underground parking garage, public restrooms, traffic calming around the park, even additional green space on the west side of the SCPA building. It then proceeded to get blasted by a bunch of speakers really angry over small concerns and non-issues. No acknowledgement of, "Hey this is going to be really awesome after you come in and spend 30 million bucks, so thank you" except for a few speakers.

So with today's proposed concept that was presented, how different is it from the one in the original concept art posted above^?

I went to this meeting and I am about done with public meetings. The plan is good and has something for everyone- keeping basketball courts, new deep water pool, new splash playground, large green space keeping the tree grove, a huge underground parking garage, public restrooms, traffic calming around the park, even additional green space on the west side of the SCPA building. It then proceeded to get blasted by a bunch of speakers really angry over small concerns and non-issues. No acknowledgement of, "Hey this is going to be really awesome after you come in and spend 30 million bucks, so thank you" except for a few speakers.

 

LOL.  It wasn't "small concerns and non-issues."  Pendleton has some very real concerns.  The Ziegler Park team did not handle the situation well at all.  The Cutter Playfield is a space that Pendleton has fought for as theirs for years.  They've been in negotiations with CORE about their plans for almost two year now.  The Ziegler Park team was right to pursue this plan, and it provides some GREAT opportunities for growth around both areas, but Pendleton was never consulted before last night.  You heard the president of the Pendleton Neighborhood Council...she was completely blindsided.  Pendleton has also had an "Over-the-Rhine can do whatever they want as long as they leave us alone" attitude for years.  To announce this plan without buttering up Pendleton first was really REALLY stupid.  Calling Cutter Playfield the "East Green" arbitrarily is a great way to piss people off.  Why not keep calling it Cutter? 

 

I think this is a fantastic plan and it provides a great opportunity for Pendleton to get a nice new park as well, but 3CDC, Human Nature, and glaserworks need to immediately stop thinking about these spaces as one park.  Provide the pedestrian connection, but design them with different users in mind.  Ziegler is obviously going to be VERY active while Cutter should remain pastoral and relaxing. 

So with today's proposed concept that was presented, how different is it from the one in the original concept art posted above^?

 

It's pretty much exactly what jwulsin and ryanlammi posted a month ago...which means they've had this plan for at least a month and STILL didn't go to the Pendleton Neighborhood Council.  SMH...

 

I really hope they're able to come to an understanding with Pendleton, because it's a great plan that will help out both neighborhoods. 

Sounds like they did meet with Pendleton...

 

Here are notes on the Pendleton neighborhood meeting with 3CDC this week. Sounds promising  :clap: Unfortunately I wasn't at the meeting, so can't give any further details!

 

Ziegler Park Renovation Update - Adam Gelter of 3CDC

Put parking garage under the green space at SCPA

Put green space back

Park board would own it

400 parking spaces

200 for residents

200 for community (120 more than what's currently there)

Expanding the park

Stopped garage short of the existing trees to keep area in tact

Public meeting on July 23 at 5p at Woodward Theater to gather public opinion

Garage entrance is north of the cross walk on Sycamore

north of steps where grade would change

 

Frankly, "Over-the-Rhine can do whatever they want as long as they leave us alone" is a terrible attitude to have. Pendleton is not some remote neighborhood; it is an urban neighborhood adjacent to the Central Business District. There is going to be evolution and change in Pendleton. This parking garage under Cutter Playground is even less intrusive than the parking deck that had previously been proposed, and is probably the best possible solution for adding parking to the neighborhood in a non-intrusive way.

I can understand being miffed that they didn't consult the Pendleton Community Council first, but is there anything objectionable in the plan for Pendleton? From an Enquirer article: "Pendleton Community Council President Tabatha Anderson said she couldn’t understand why this plan would incorporate a parking lot that her community has been fighting 14 years."

 

It's not like they are replacing the park with a parking lot. They are providing both. You won't even see the parking since it will be under the park. And this should go a long way to reducing the need for parking elsewhere and free up existing surface lots to the south for redevelopment.

 

Also, Julie Fay said that the parking garage was too far from Main Street... It's 1 block! I don't understand constant negativity around improvements to civic spaces. Especially when there is almost no real issue with the design.

 

Pros of this deal:

A new parking structure for Main Street businesses

A renovated park

Keeping the pool

Keeping basketball courts

Eliminating ugly surface parking lots

Keeping Cutter Playground

 

Negatives:

They didn't get input from Pendleton's community council (despite almost nothing objectionable)

The underground parking could be 1/2 block closer to Main Street if they wanted to pay extra money

 

I just don't see the issue with this plan. Almost everything in it is perfect.

The reaction from the Pendleton community council kind of explains why they didn't get input from the Pendleton community council.

Sounds like they did meet with Pendleton...

 

Here are notes on the Pendleton neighborhood meeting with 3CDC this week. Sounds promising  :clap: Unfortunately I wasn't at the meeting, so can't give any further details!

 

Ziegler Park Renovation Update - Adam Gelter of 3CDC

Put parking garage under the green space at SCPA

Put green space back

Park board would own it

400 parking spaces

200 for residents

200 for community (120 more than what's currently there)

Expanding the park

Stopped garage short of the existing trees to keep area in tact

Public meeting on July 23 at 5p at Woodward Theater to gather public opinion

Garage entrance is north of the cross walk on Sycamore

north of steps where grade would change

 

Frankly, "Over-the-Rhine can do whatever they want as long as they leave us alone" is a terrible attitude to have. Pendleton is not some remote neighborhood; it is an urban neighborhood adjacent to the Central Business District. There is going to be evolution and change in Pendleton. This parking garage under Cutter Playground is even less intrusive than the parking deck that had previously been proposed, and is probably the best possible solution for adding parking to the neighborhood in a non-intrusive way.

 

The email sent out to the neighborhood stated that the presentation (1.5 weeks before this input session) was stopped and asked to be resumed at the August meeting. The reasoning was the they wanted to wait until full plan was available and Core redevelopment as well as city planning officials could join. I agree it was very short notice, but they should have had at least some conversation at this meeting instead of completely shelving the agenda item.

 

Any changes to the neighborhood have always been HIGHLY scrutinized by long time Pendleton residents. Some times it is a good thing, but other times it is highly obstructive. This was also seen with the SCPA redevelopment - young residents want to move things forward and eventually end up in shouting matches either in meetings or email to try to get things to finally move forward and benefit the neighborhood. It got so frustrating that I rarely wanted to attend meetings. Then I moved out of state (but rented my property) and it became too tough to give input on items anyhow.

 

In summary every positive development in Pendleton seems to be one step forward two steps back until newer residents band together to speak up and overcome the long time nitpickers of the neighborhood.

Not going to lie, I'm not seeing a single compelling reason presented yesterday as to why this is a bad idea. Underground parking that's less obtrusive than the approved parking deck for the SCPA yet provides significantly more parking. Expanded park options. The current features either stay or are expanded so I'm not sure where the notion that it doesn't help the existing users comes from. And when in the hell is one block too far to walk? Think of all the people who use the Washington Park garage before going out and about on Vine and stuff. How is that useful but the one block between Sycamore and Main too much?

 

I love Pendleton but I've noticed that long time residents of the neighborhood are petty and will complain about any little improvement and find the most trivial things to complain about. This plan is not bad and is not going against the community council's plans for the neighborhood.

So is the SCPA Garage happening regardless of what happens with the Ziegler plan? Or if this garage gets built then the SCPA Garage for the apartments goes away?

 

Does the apartment conversion have to wait for this all to get sorted out? I know they had been doing preliminary demo inside already.

Are Pendelton residents that are issues complaints about the plan worried about their property values rising?

 

It sounds like a fabulous plan, especially with parking underground.  It will really activate that area, with all the surface parking around, and hopefully be a catalyst for redevelopment of some nice sized mixed use buildings and connect it to the urban, historic building stock in Pendelton, which a lot of it is in tough shape.

So is the SCPA Garage happening regardless of what happens with the Ziegler plan? Or if this garage gets built then the SCPA Garage for the apartments goes away?

 

Does the apartment conversion have to wait for this all to get sorted out? I know they had been doing preliminary demo inside already.

 

From what I saw and heard, the planned garage wrapping the SCPA goes away if this plan is implemented, maintaining and creating even more green space than previously planned.  The SCPA developer will pay part of the cost towards the underground garage.  Even the parking lot space on the west side of the SCPA building facing Sycamore may become a landscaped area. 

Pendleton residents should be happy that all the parking will be underground rather than that two-story parking deck (which was OK) and surface parking wrapping the building (which was gross).

It then proceeded to get blasted by a bunch of speakers really angry over small concerns and non-issues.

 

That's 99.9% of all school board, city council, and HOA meetings. 

Is there still going to be a small parking lot by the Peaslee center? I really hope not...I can tell by the concept art that the pool and water works will eat most of the parking space by the peaslee center, but it always irritates me where there is a surface in an urban enviroment. Especially when there will be a massive parking garage a block away for those who need to park there cars.

 

Really hoping that whats left of that surface lot will somehow be incorporated as part of the park..even if it's just green space with a few benches and trees.

Also...walked down from Washington Park to Nation Kitchen and Bar in Pendelton yesterday. I swear, they need to do something about those massive elephant graveyard lots. It really kills the vibe when you walking through vine, and walnut, and main, and all of a sudden BOOM, it feels like your back in Mason with these giant surface lots growing weeds throughout..and do a little more walking and your in pendelton and it's like a mini otr down there with some really nice building stock.

 

But my point is, I realllllllllllllllly hope those surface lots have bigger and better plans for the future, because right now it's such a huge eye sore and such a big dis-connector between OTR and Pendelton. Truly the epitome of the word, "no mans land"

I had to bite my tongue at last night's meeting lest I make too many enemies with my neighbors. But the Josh Spring and Bonnie Neumeier contingent came armed with placards opposing the "Tourist Park " (those words, in a circle with a red line through it, and "New Isn't Always Better," which is absurd if they are going the whole "if it aint broke don't fix it" route.  Ziegler Park is broken. And guess what else is? That highly coveted "historic' (non-historic), under-utilized, oversized dog run/green space known as Cutter Field. That is not an historic "green space," as it was a residential block for most of its modern life. If we want to talk "recent history," the "green space" has been used mostly for drinking, smoking, shitting, peeing, littering and sleeping--both by humans as well as by animals. And all of those residents whose homes in the park don't seem to mind that too much, as their elevated front windows paint a pretty picture of green fields and treetops, barely pausing to reflect on the human excrement and litter accumulating at ground level. I live across the street from Cutter, am in it a minimum of two times every day, and consider it a joke how certain Pendletonians are so quick to rally to its cause yet blithely ignorant about it's problems. It's a field in the middle of the city, and an unnecessary space at that, save for those lucky few whose homes overlook an unadulterated green space (note that the usual suspects are also ADAMANT that there be no programming in the space ("NO TOURIST PARK!!")

It really seems to me that most of the Pendleton residents that are talking about Cutter Playground being an important, historic asset are really just saying that because they don't want any new development in their neighborhood. Extreme NIMBYism.

 

From some of his comments that I've read, it seems Josh Spring took was making his typical extreme comments and in some cases flat-out race baiting.

It really seems to me that most of the Pendleton residents that are talking about Cutter Playground being an important, historic asset are really just saying that because they don't want any new development in their neighborhood. Extreme NIMBYism.

 

From some of his comments that I've read, it seems Josh Spring took was making his typical extreme comments and in some cases flat-out race baiting.

 

Yeah Josh Spring immediately tried to delegitimize the meeting by attacking the meeting organizers because the crowd of people in the room didn't look like the people who use the park (meaning the meeting was too white.) He suggested the meeting be held in the park (never mind how that would have worked on a day with the temp in the 80's with a microphone and slide show for an hour long meeting.) The organizers responded that they posted fliers in the park and reached out to people there. To which Josh continued his accusatory questioning "Well why do you think none of them showed up?" It was upsetting to watch because the meeting organizers are clearly making a good faith effort to get community input on this project per an established process. Woodward Theater where the meeting was held is just around the corner from the park.

Yeah I refuse to take the Cincinnati Coalition for the Homeless seriously because of Josh Spring. It's unfortunate because the cause is very important, but he is so polarizing that he turns me away from them.