^ it never was even anywhere near google glass stage -- its just a complete fantasy.

 

 

^California HSR has resorted to the motto "it's happening".  It appears that most of the state is still completely unaware that 100+ miles of "packet 1" are very much under construction and "packet 2" is in pre-construction (land acquisition, test borings, etc.). 

 

I am baffled as to why the hyperloop idea has so entranced people. 

 

The average person will walk past something that's under construction and not stop and ask any questions about what's being built. When the first phase of California's HSR opens, a bunch of people are going to be like, "oh, that's what that is?"

 

I did drive past a bunch of the HSR construction in Fresno a few weeks ago. South of the city, the piers that will support elevated track are being built. A bunch of road/highway bridges are also being rebuilt as part of the project.

 

 

maybe not even then because a third of this will not be high speed rail at all, and you will still be able to drive it quicker. i think i reqad that if they took something called the grapevine route instead it would have been quicker and have more hsr, but that would have cost way too much money. its something though, as good as we can get for hsr in the usa at the moment, and it will help.

 

maybe not even then because a third of this will not be high speed rail at all, and you will still be able to drive it quicker. i think i reqad that if they took something called the grapevine route instead it would have been quicker and have more hsr, but that would have cost way too much money. its something though, as good as we can get for hsr in the usa at the moment, and it will help.

 

Depends on when you're driving the 5.  Overnight, sure it may be quicker to drive.  During the day, probably not.  And you can't check email, have a lunch meeting, etc while driving your car. 

The shorter, straighter route was avoided because it bypassed all of the Central Valley cities.  The route that is being built takes advantage of the way all of those places are oriented in basically a straight line.  It is requiring a lot of grade separation in them that drove up costs. 

 

The only "slow" section will be the Caltrans mixed track between San Jose and SF and then the immediate 5~ miles north of LA's Union Station.  In France the TGV approaches Paris very slowly for about 5-8 miles also. 

 

If you live in the east bay, you will be able to take BART to the San Jose HSR station (BART is under construction to the edge of San Jose and will soon break ground on a subway under the downtown).  Operation of HSR will be 200mph until just a 2-3 miles outside of San Jose.  So from Oakland on down, taking BART to San Jose will probably be faster than taking BART to the transit center in DT SF, then taking the "slow" HSR route. 

i see somebody just answered this on ssp:

 

 

Let's take a fresh look at CHSR project. It only goes very fast in the Valley. In Southern California and San Francisco Bay Area, where it will share the corridor and the tracks with local regional slower trains, it only goes the slower speeds so it would not run over or through (crash) into the slower trains.

 

It's 473 rail miles between downtown S.F. and downtown L.A. You can drive it in 382 miles, 91 miles less, but the fast train is taking the long way and not the shortcut. It'll go slow the 62 or so miles between L.A. and Palmdale, and the 83 or so miles S.F. to Gilroy. That's 145 miles of the 473 miles it will not be going fast, therefore it can only go very fast over 328 miles. But then it will have to slow down to a stop, and accelerate from a stop at intermediate stations.

 

How many HSR stations will there be between L.A. and S.F?

(1) Transbay (2) Millbrae (3) Diridon (4) Gilroy (5) Merced (6) Madera (7) Fresno (8) Hanford (9) Bakersfield (10) Palmdale (11) Burbank, and (12) Union Station. Every stop at a station along the way will cause the average speed of the train to be slower. So the train will not be going very fast over that entire remaining 328 miles.

 

And please do not suggest the HSR trains will not be stopping at these intermediate stations, I know better because CHSR is building the longer route to get to them. What's the purpose getting to them if you're not going to stop at them?

 

So what do we have, we have a train that will probably take 3 hours or more to run between downtown L.A. and downtown S.F. with a technology that could do it in less than 2 hours - and that will be celebrated as a success.

So what do we have, we have a train that will probably take 3 hours or more to run between downtown L.A. and downtown S.F. with a technology that could do it in less than 2 hours - and that will be celebrated as a success.

 

Considering that driving from Downtown LA to Downtown SF would take about 6 hours, during which time you could only stare at the road and listen to music or podcasts ... I consider a 3 hour train trip—where you can relax, walk around, do work, watch movies, or read a book—to be a huge success.

But then it will have to slow down to a stop, and accelerate from a stop at intermediate stations.

 

All of the stations are being built with 4 tracks, meaning that you could easily have local and express trains. If there is enough ridership between the Bay Area and LA, you could run a few express trains per day that do not stop at any intermediate stations. There are a lot of possibilities for how they could run the system that would not require every train stopping at every station.

The shorter, straighter route was avoided because it bypassed all of the Central Valley cities.  The route that is being built takes advantage of the way all of those places are oriented in basically a straight line.  It is requiring a lot of grade separation in them that drove up costs. 

 

The only "slow" section will be the Caltrans mixed track between San Jose and SF and then the immediate 5~ miles north of LA's Union Station.  In France the TGV approaches Paris very slowly for about 5-8 miles also. 

 

If you live in the east bay, you will be able to take BART to the San Jose HSR station (BART is under construction to the edge of San Jose and will soon break ground on a subway under the downtown).  Operation of HSR will be 200mph until just a 2-3 miles outside of San Jose.  So from Oakland on down, taking BART to San Jose will probably be faster than taking BART to the transit center in DT SF, then taking the "slow" HSR route. 

 

Then again, if you're heading from downstate to the CBD of San Francisco, the HSR will be very fast. The Transbay Center is already under construction and will be the northern terminal of the HSR and CalTrain on the peninsula.

 

^ yeah that part was a bit confusing because it seems like the poster was implying they would not run express although they have the track to do it.

 

however, the track sharing at each each end will certainly slow things down, if not the station stops. it still looks like a third of the route is not hsr to me.

Not everyone is familiar with high-speed rail systems around the world and too often equate them to really fast subways. They may not know that there are different classes of service with different trains and the higher-class trains make fewer or no enroute stops. I believe the Tokyo-Osaka Shinkansen has five or six different classes of service with trains departing every 5-10 minutes. The line carries some 300,000 people per day.

 

So to get back to Hyperloop, I struggle to see how it can offer these differentiated services with multiple enroute station stops with lower-class/more frequently stopping trains and similarly have any near the passenger handling capacity of conventional high speed rail systems.

The stretch between DT LA and Burbank will share existing (but rebuilt) commuter tracks.  From Burbank to Palmdale it will be HSR exclusive, but might not run at the full 200mph speed through the new tunnels.  It will definitely go over 100mph in the tunnels though, probably more like 150mph. 

 

 

All of the stations are being built with 4 tracks, meaning that you could easily have local and express trains.

 

This article says that speeds in the mountain tunnels (about 20 miles of tunnel between Burbank and Palmdale and then a 7-8 mile tunnel near Merced) will be 200mph.  They narrowed the bore to save money, so the operating speed will be 200mph instead of 220mph:

http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-bullet-capacity-cutback-20161020-snap-story.html

 

More ominously, in 2016 they decided to run single train sets instead of the doubles you see in some parts of Japan and Europe.  As is described in the article, this saves a ton of money at each station because the station structures are much, much smaller.  I imagine that the stations at SF, San Jose, and LA will be larger in order to accommodate the larger trains in the future.  The big capacity issue with HSR is caused by the stopping distance between trains in the event of an emergency.  The 2x length trains require no more space to stop than a single-length train. 

 

The issue with the hyperloop is that in order to operate safely, there would have to be a huge amount of space between consecutive 600mph pods.  The whole reason why maglev or faster traditional HSR has never been seriously pursued is because the longer stopping distance doesn't win the system any capacity.  This is just one more pesky detail the Muskman conveniently ignores. 

 

 

I assume that they're sharing tracks with other trains in dense urban areas because it would be extremely expensive to build dedicated tracks ... not because it's impossible. If the HSR ends up being extremely popular, they could always add dedicated tracks in LA and SF later.

 

The Japanese high speed rail system is called the "Shinkansen" which means "new trunk line", literally meaning that the high speed trains do not share tracks with any other slower trains.

The HSR stations and approaches in the Central Valley will all be their own tracks, completely grade separated from everything else.  The only sections of the line that will be shared with other services are one LA commuter line and the Caltrains commuter line between SF, San Jose, and Gilroy.  Initially, conventional existing Amtrak will operate on the central valley section until the rest of the system is finished and they switch over to electric HSR trains.  The central valley section won't have any tunnels so that's why the diesel trains will be able to operate on the HSR tracks for several years.

Hyperloop One raises $85 million, looks to Trump for boost

 

 

As the only company to build a full-scale hyperloop system, Hyperloop One has closed $85 million to move on to the next stage.

 

The startup, headquartered in Los Angeles, has raised $245 million since its founding in 2014.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/news/2017/09/22/hyperloop-one-raises-85-million-looks-to-trump-for.html

A vacuum tube scam coming to Denver:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2017/11/14/colorado-drivers-may-first-escape-traffic/860696001/

 

There are already 200mph trains and there are already autotrains.  That's how your car crosses from England to France through the Chunnel and how Amtrak hauls vacationer's personal vehicles from Washington, DC to Florida. 

 

So they're trying to adapt the autotrain idea for commuters.  So the cars need to get on and off of these trays super-fast or else it negates the whole purpose.  Five minutes of screwing around at either end of the tube completely negates the time advantage.   

 

We're just going to see whoever owns this company abscond with public money. 

A vacuum tube scam coming to Denver:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2017/11/14/colorado-drivers-may-first-escape-traffic/860696001/

 

There are already 200mph trains and there are already autotrains.  That's how your car crosses from England to France through the Chunnel and how Amtrak hauls vacationer's personal vehicles from Washington, DC to Florida. 

 

So they're trying to adapt the autotrain idea for commuters.  So the cars need to get on and off of these trays super-fast or else it negates the whole purpose.  Five minutes of screwing around at either end of the tube completely negates the time advantage.   

 

We're just going to see whoever owns this company abscond with public money. 

 

Neither the Chunnel trains, nor Amtrak are 200 mph trains however.

186 mph (top cruising speed of Eurostar trains) is pretty close. And auto trains also run through the Chunnel at up to 100 mph.

The top speed of 100mph or 200mph for a 20-mile run doesn't matter when the loading and unloading of the cars is such a clumsy maneuver. 

 

Now, a project that would actually be pretty interesting is if they suggested building a 100-mile tunnel under the Rocky Mountains that would enable cars and trucks to completely avoid the treacherous interstate 70 route immediately west of Denver.  So they'd need to dig a pair of 100-mile, 22~-foot diameter bores from Denver west to about Vail.  That would be a pair of tunnels 3x longer than the longest tunnels in the world in Switzerland. 

 

 

186 mph (top cruising speed of Eurostar trains) is pretty close. And auto trains also run through the Chunnel at up to 100 mph.

 

I've taken both quite a few times.  The Eurostar is limited in the tunnel to the 100 mph.  And if your statement about the auto train is true, the "at up to 100 mph" must be stressed, because I never felt like we were doing much more than 35....  Either way, it's an impressive system built by an group of nations not afraid to invest in infrastructure.  We're still waiting on Trump's bill....

Elon Musk’s “Innovations” are Not the Future — They’re Delaying ItTech CEOs Are Out for Themselves, Not the Public Good

https://medium.com/@parismarx/elon-musks-innovations-are-not-the-future-they-re-delaying-it-79a49f75507a

Columbus delegation impressed by visit to Hyperloop One testing grounds

 

After a visit to the desert testing grounds of Virgin Hyperloop One, Smart Columbus and Central Ohio planning officials say they're more optimistic about the chances of building an ultra-high-speed tube transportation system connecting Columbus to Chicago and Pittsburgh.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/news/2018/02/12/columbus-delegation-impressed-by-visit-to.html

CLEVELAND/CHICAGO HYPERLOOPTT

 

Hyperloop Transportation Technologies signs first cross-state deal in the U.S.

 

https://techcrunch.com/2018/02/15/hyperloop-transportation-technologies-signs-first-cross-state-deal-in-the-u-s/

 

Hyperloop Transportation Technologies Takes One Step Closer to First US Track

 

https://futurism.com/hyperloop-transportation-first-us-track/

 

I doubt highway or rail right-of-way is straight enough for even half the claimed top speeds of the Hyperloop. So where would the route go?

 

Hey NOACA, how about a feasibility study on improving the Amtrak line that already exists. Maybe having a route that comes in at a decent time of day or isn't as slow as the Oregan Trail.

I think the hyperloop is dumb but I also think it’s dumb this proposal bypasses Toledo.

 

Which brings me to a thought- given that you wouldn’t want to be slowing down and speeding up all the time in the hyperloop you probably wouldn’t want to daisy chain cities together but instead build parallel tubes (maybe stack them up in the same right of way) to connect pairs of cities together. For example in a Cincinnati to Detroit right of way, have a pair of tubes for Cincinnati to Dayton, a pair of tubes for Cincinnati to Toledo, and a pair of tubes for Cincinnati to Detroit. A Cleveland to Chicago right of way could have a pair of tubes for Cleveland to Toledo, Cleveland to Detroit, Cleveland to Ft Wayne, and Cleveland to Chicago all stacked together. The tubes for the smaller cities would branch off from the main right of way when they got close to those cities.

 

It also makes sense because probably acquiring a right of way that doesn’t curve would be the highest cost. If this thing goes as fast as they plan, then the main right of ways could be established in unpopulated areas without significant losses to travel time.

 

Hope Elon reads UrbanOhio cause that sounds like a good idea I just had of I do say so myself

In London they just started international passenger train service to a third city on the European mainland -- Amsterdam.  Can't do that with the hyperloop without digging a third set of tunnels beneath the English Channel. 

 

In London they just started international passenger train service to a third city on the European mainland -- Amsterdam.  Can't do that with the hyperloop without digging a third set of tunnels beneath the English Channel. 

 

 

The first proposed tunnel under the channel was in 1802, put forth by a French mining engineer. 

 

186 years later, construction on the current Chunnel started when technology had advanced far enough to make it not only feasible, but economical.

 

Dream big Elon!

In London they just started international passenger train service to a third city on the European mainland -- Amsterdam.  Can't do that with the hyperloop without digging a third set of tunnels beneath the English Channel. 

 

 

Great even more roving packs of hammered English and Scottish men killing your MJ cafe buzz as they holler all over Amsterdam

In London they just started international passenger train service to a third city on the European mainland -- Amsterdam.  Can't do that with the hyperloop without digging a third set of tunnels beneath the English Channel. 

 

 

Great even more roving packs of hammered English and Scottish men killing your MJ cafe buzz as they holler all over Amsterdam

 

This guy Amsterdams.

186 years later, construction on the current Chunnel started when technology had advanced far enough to make it not only feasible, but economical.

 

Economical? Lol, the investors got wiped out.

186 years later, construction on the current Chunnel started when technology had advanced far enough to make it not only feasible, but economical.

 

Economical? Lol, the investors got wiped out.

 

Well relative to 1802 it is, and it's finally turning a profit 20 years after opening.  Maybe they should have waited another decade or two, but my point was it never hurts to speculate about what might be possible....

Meanwhile, the region's public transportation systems wither with real-life consequences for tens of thousands of people.

 

Meanwhile, communities between Cleveland and Chicago have lost rail, bus and airline services, making them more isolated. Hyperloop will not serve them.

 

Meanwhile, the existing rail corridor between Cleveland and Chicago is beset with freight and passenger rail traffic congestion at volumes that Hyperloop lacks the capacity to ease.

 

This is why techno fantasies like this (monorail, maglev, tubular rail, etc) make me nervous. They cause public sector leaders to become distracted and ignore real needs of people, businesses and communities. And after we find these fantasies aren't feasible, we're right back where we started -- until the next fantasy distracts us and we fall farther behind the rest of the world.

What KJP just said, translated to meme:

 

This meme could be used for every situation.  Meme's will eventually replace the written word.  ;D

Also, while we're making fun of Elon Musk, somehow all of the tech geeks are completely unaware that the Space Shuttle booster rockets were all re-used too.  Instead of landing themselves they were simply towed out of the ocean back to the Cape:

 

So once again Elon Musk tricks people into thinking he thought of something first. 

 

-Tunnel boring machines -- have existed for 50+ years.  Hundreds of them in use around the world.  He still hasn't built one.

-Recoverable rockets -- have existed for 50+ years.  The space shuttle boosters were re-used dozens of times from 1980-2011. 

-Battery backups for solar -- have existed for 50+ years.  The early satellites and anything that orbited the moon in the 60s had a battery backup for its solar panels.

-Hyperloop -- pneumatic subway built under New York City 100+ years ago. 

-electric cars -- have existed for 100 years.  Hasn't he watched Joe Lenno's garage?  I remember Mr. Wizard's world doing a feature on electric cars in the 1980s. 

 

 

 

 

Who invented the car?  Somebody less famous than Henry Ford. 

Battery technology and solar panel technology have gotten way better over the past decade, and Elon didn't have anything to do with that. If General Motors would've been forced by the State of California to build the EV1 in 2018 instead of 1998, it probably would've succeeded using modern battery technology. Elon just happened to be there at just the right time.

You guys are bashing Elon way too hard here. In recent years, what other billionaire decided to better the world with his/her money in massive risk, massive projects, and in such a large scale? He's trying to do us a favor reduce emissions while increasing the convenience of the people.

 

Tesla: The first car to drive highway speeds over 700 miles on a single charge. Manufacturing their own batteries, power banks, and solar shingles...

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/innovation/tesla-opens-gigafactory-expand-battery-production-sales-n617676

 

TheBoringCompany: (Just because he hasn't built one yet doesn't mean that he won't, He's already bored underneath LA for proof of concept)

https://www.boringcompany.com/faq/

The boring machine they're developing will be fully autonomous, run on electric motors and will bore nearly 24/7 on little to no emissions. Which is great because there's been no upgrade to tunneling in decades... If the connection underneath the English Channel from England to France was bored with this machine, boring time would be cut almost in half, and costs would have never exceeded the initial budget of 5.5 billion pound sterling. The ground up stone would be reused as foundations for the tunnels. However I doubt that would even begin his Hyperloop projects without his boring machine.

 

SpaceX:

What can I say? They just strapped a roadster to the most powerful rocket available and shot it into space, and the rocket friggin landed itself... If that isn't space exploration, then I don't know what is...

 

He's doing things that are inconceivably high risk for us. Cut him some slack guys. I remain optimistic because Elon gets his s**t done, even if he's copied an idea and made his version, its still an original patent...

TheBoringCompany: (Just because he hasn't built one yet doesn't mean that he won't, He's already bored underneath LA for proof of concept)

https://www.boringcompany.com/faq/

The boring machine they're developing will be fully autonomous, run on electric motors and will bore nearly 24/7 on little to no emissions. Which is great because there's been no upgrade to tunneling in decades...

 

 

Electric-powered computer-controlled boring machines already exist.  They're digging water pipes all over the place as we speak.  About a month ago I talked to a guy who worked on the water main the Cincinnati Waterworks dug under the Ohio River to serve NKY ten years ago.  That project used a robotic tunnel boring machine. 

 

The Boring Company bought a used boring machine from the LA metrolink.  The tunnel they built was with existing technology, with an existing machine built by another company.  Transit agencies sell their used boring machines with some regularity.  But often they simply leave the boring machine in the ground because it costs a lot to get them out of the finished tunnel and because new technology is already so much better. 

 

For example, the Long Island Railroad is going to leave the boring machines that just dug the east side access tunnels in the ground. 

 

Really surprised at all the hate here for this idea and for Elon in general. I think if it ever happened it would be a game changer. I love the idea

I'm all for transportation innovation.  But I'm already seeing politicians say we shouldn't invest in transit because of self driving cars or we shouldn't invest in high speed rail because of hyperloop. Until these technologies actually prove themselves, there is no reason at all to throw away investing in proven technologies for the unproven. But that's exactly what's been happening. And we've ended up with little or nothing as a result while more practical nations are progressing.

Fanboys going wild with news that Musk received "digging permit" in Washington, DC.  Yeah, it's called a test boring, dumbasses.  It's NOT a big deal. 

I'm all for transportation innovation.  But I'm already seeing politicians say we shouldn't invest in transit because of self driving cars or we shouldn't invest in high speed rail because of hyperloop.

 

Can you name a single politician who has actually advanced these arguments?

 

When politicians oppose further investments in transit or high speed rail, it is almost always to do with concerns about cost, ridership, inflexible routes, noise, and probably a dozen other factors well before anyone would dare to argue that it's pointless because the Hyperloop or autopilot cars are just around the corner.

 

Meanwhile, the advent of autopilot and electric vehicles does promise to make existing autocentric suburbs vastly more sustainable than they are now.  For those of us who recognize that that land use pattern is not going to somehow vanish overnight, that is a positive development.

Well said....

 

David Cole, AIA

‏@DavidColeAIA

 

Hyperloop: the perfect shiny object for Rust Belt politicians desperate to appear “innovative” without having to do any heavy lifting in building actual useful transportation infrastructure.

 

High-speed Chicago to Cleveland Hyperloop proposal takes first baby steps towards becoming a reality

https://chicago.curbed.com/2018/2/20/17031866/chicago-cleveland-hyperloop-elon-musk

Fanboys going wild with news that Musk received "digging permit" in Washington, DC.  Yeah, it's called a test boring, dumbasses.  It's NOT a big deal. 

 

I bet it was a verbal digging permit

Meanwhile, the advent of autopilot and electric vehicles does promise to make existing autocentric suburbs vastly more sustainable than they are now.  For those of us who recognize that that land use pattern is not going to somehow vanish overnight, that is a positive development.

 

I disagree, and believe that current development patterns are overly auto-centric and unsustainable.  The condition of our current roads and bridges is evidence that we have built more lane-miles of roadway than we can afford to maintain.  Making the vehicles on those roads electric or autonomous does not generate more revenue or reduce maintenance costs, and thus will not create a financially-sustainable transportation system.

this idea is the epitome of a pipe dream lol

Boo!

The headline is hyperloop. But the study will evaluate a near-term, modern, 110-mph #Columbus-#Chicago passenger #rail on upgraded, underutilized rail infrastructure serving Marysville, Kenton, Lima and Ft. Wayne. That's why the enroute communities helped to fund this. Hyperloop, if built, won't serve them. Passenger rail will.

 

Columbus taking steps to secure future Hyperloop route

http://www.dispatch.com/news/20180221/columbus-taking-steps-to-secure-future-hyperloop-route

Meanwhile, the advent of autopilot and electric vehicles does promise to make existing autocentric suburbs vastly more sustainable than they are now.  For those of us who recognize that that land use pattern is not going to somehow vanish overnight, that is a positive development.

 

I disagree, and believe that current development patterns are overly auto-centric and unsustainable.  The condition of our current roads and bridges is evidence that we have built more lane-miles of roadway than we can afford to maintain.  Making the vehicles on those roads electric or autonomous does not generate more revenue or reduce maintenance costs, and thus will not create a financially-sustainable transportation system.

 

We definitely have built more lane-miles of roads than we can afford to maintain.  I'm not even arguing that.  However, notwithstanding its unsustainability, the phenomenon of letting roads simply return to gravel is going to remain a rural phenomenon at most.  There will not be a complete cessation of suburban-style development even within core Ohio counties like Cuyahoga, Franklin, and Hamilton, let alone a retrenchment of actually turning suburban-style housing developments back into farmland, even in outlying counties like Medina or Geauga.  At most, you can expect a high water mark of development that limits the growth of future new suburban-style development in those outlying counties (a hard or soft urban growth boundary).  The existing built environment is going to be with us for a good long while, so advancements that make that more sustainable ought to be welcomed.

Hyperloop, if built, won't serve them. Passenger rail will.

 

 

The hyperloop is never going to physically exist.  Not only is it technically unbuildable for a variety of reasons, it can't make money in part because it only has two theoretical advantages over established HSR -- faster speed and lower energy use.  HSR is much more flexible because it can run express and locals on the same track.  So the same fixed asset has two different revenue streams. 

 

For reasons that have already been explained here, in all practicality, a 500+ MPH pod will not be significantly faster point-to-point than would existing HSR technology.  American cities all sprawl so much that getting out of city A and into city B at high speed is impossible.  The hyperloop faces the same dilemma -- the need to tunnel or build elevated for 15 miles out of city A and into city B to achieve even moderate speeds. 

 

So for Cincinnati to Chicago, there would be a need for as much or more than 50 miles of elevated or tunnels, even though the topography is flat, in order to build an optimal route.  But optimal routes never get built for this reason, so chip-chip-chipping away at the hyperloop's speed advantage in the open countryside and pretty soon you're only talking a 30-minute time advantage on a 250-mile run.