^thats why it’s ridiculous for anyone to do a hyperloop feasibility study focusing on things like fares. That’s like someone picking out the paint colors for a mansion they want to buy before they have $100 saved to their name. 
 

that, and there’s an ongoing insistence that hyperloop will by privately funded or cheaper than rail when all indications are that the hyperloop infrastructure will be much more complicated and thus more expensive than rail (maintaining the vacuum tubes, less flexibility in acquiring right of way because it has to be straight as an arrow due to the high speeds involved)

Edited November 27, 20195 yr by thebillshark

8 minutes ago, thebillshark said:

^thats why it’s ridiculous for anyone to do a hyperloop feasibility study focusing on things like fares. That’s like someone picking out the paint colors for a mansion they want to buy before they have $100 saved to their name. 

 

I do think that a funicular-type point-to-point system would be a lot more feasible, since there might be a way to swap (loop? get it?!!!) the pressurized vs. depressurized air between two parallel tubes, which would enable the vehicles to be boarded and deplaned at either terminal station without an airlock.  

 

In theory, passengers could enter a tube that is at regular atmospheric pressure and the air would be gradually swapped into the parallel tube, which begins the process in a vacuum.  So the train could accelerate faster than HSR after a few minutes, achieve subsonic speeds in a near-vacuum, and then brake gradually as the air is restored to full atmospheric pressure as the train approaches the opposite station.  

 

But the fatigue on the two structures - being pressurized and depressurized several times per hour -- would be immense.  There would be an odd timing of the two parallel operations because one would have to be traveling at subsonic speed while the opposite is boarding/deplaning, which isn't how a funicular works.  

 

I’ve previously thought about how it might be designed if there were no turnouts or switches/bifurcations involved. You would have point to point destinations only- so a pair of tubes, to/from between each city pair. The capsule would travel at normal speeds (due to the tubes having many curves) until they got out of a city’s sprawl zone. Perhaps the majority of time on each trip would be spent navigating this area. Once out in a rural area it could meet up with banks of other tubes with a super straight alignment allowing high speeds. Having banks of tubes could make the tubes (only slightly) easier to maintain by being concentrated along one route. To avoid having hundreds of tubes providing point to point connections, each city would only have a tube pair to the next city over in each direction as well as a separate tube pair to the city after that. Or, you could have a tier system where tier A cities have a tube pair to the next tier A city and separate tube pairs for any tier B cities in between. 

Edited November 28, 20195 yr by thebillshark

1 hour ago, thebillshark said:

I’ve previously thought about how it might be designed if there were no turnouts or switches/bifurcations involved. You would have point to point destinations only- so a pair of tubes, to/from between each city pair. The capsule would travel at normal speeds (due to the tubes having many curves) until they got out of a city’s sprawl zone. Perhaps the majority of time on each trip would be spent navigating this area. Once out in a rural area it could meet up with banks of other tubes with a super straight alignment allowing high speeds. Having banks of tubes could make the tubes (only slightly) easier to maintain by being concentrated along one route. To avoid having hundreds of tubes providing point to point connections, each city would only have a tube pair to the next city over in each direction as well as a separate tube pair to the city after that. Or, you could have a tier system where tier A cities have a tube pair to the next tier A city and separate tube pairs for any tier B cities in between. 

 

^Still, people are vastly underestimating the sheer volume of material necessary to build this thing.  As I  have already described in earlier posts, a 12-foot diameter tube requires just under 40 feet of rolled steel.  So a pair of 100-mile hyperloop tubes would require a 75~ foot wide sheet of steel, 100 miles long.  How thick is that steel?  I don't know, but it's basically like building an 8-lane wide bridge deck for 100 miles.  It's preposterously expensive, and would have much less capacity than traditional rail.   

 

China has built several preposterously long viaducts for its high speed rail network in the last 10 years.  Several are well over 50 miles long, where the railways travel over farmland that floods once or more every year.  But those bridge decks are only 25~ feet wide and mostly built of reinforced concrete, plus construction costs are much lower there. 

 

The relevant quote:

 

"Roger Goodall, professor of control systems engineering at Loughborough University, is a hyperloop skeptic. “There are major technical limitations and uncertainties,” he says, including low system capacity, safety and reliability issues, track switching and high levels of acceleration. The lack of progress in the Middle East, he thinks, is probably a combination of these technology issues, as well as the high costs. The fundamental problem with the system, he adds, is the low capacity, which could be less than 25 percent of the number of passengers, per hour, compared to high-speed rail. “The cost can only be justified if lots of people can be moved. Of course if the system could really be built at much lower cost than high-speed rail then that might work, but the evidence is to the contrary.”"

 

https://wired.me/science/transportation/when-is-hyperloop-launching-dubai-abu-dhabi/?fbclid=IwAR0a4asCWtKYr3xwvP8wQuzQpRr-Ydv1zMH7qgipwfhdLRW3cfsDe2CdNbA

 

More Money to be Wasted on Ridiculous Studies

oops

 

Cleveland hyperloop benefits would justify $29.8 billion price tag: study

By Steven Litt, The Plain Dealer

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio — A high-speed hyperloop line that could zoom passengers through a vacuum tube from Cleveland to Chicago and Pittsburgh could cost from $24.7 billion to $29.8 billion to build, depending on variations in the route and stops along the way. But the profits and economic benefits would justify the expense and attract the substantial private investment needed to make it happen.

 

Those statements are among the key assertions of an 18-month, $1.3 million feasibility analysis scheduled for release Monday by the Northeast Ohio Areawide Coordinating Agency and Los Angeles-based Hyperloop Transportation Technologies.

 

The report, led by TEMS, a consulting firm based in Frederick, Maryland, constitutes what the authors believe is the most extensive hyperloop feasibility analysis released publicly to date, anywhere, said NOACA Executive Director Grace Gallucci, who discussed some of the report’s core findings ahead of Monday.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2019/12/benefits-would-justify-298-billion-cost-of-cleveland-hyperloop-line-according-to-study-to-be-unveiled-monday.html

Edited December 15, 20195 yr by surfohio

One interesting thing to come from this would be an article about these kinds of foolish 6 or 7 figure studies, a history of them, how many ended up being somewhat predictive, and who ends up with the check each time. 

^ funding a study to study these

studies should be pretty easy to secure. 

I bet a lot of it is the Saudis, the Koch Buddies, GM and the oil companies.

Edited December 15, 20195 yr by GCrites80s

"Benefits would justify $30 billion cost of network of magic fireplaces, study says."

 

Btw, the study was conducted over 18 months and cost $1.3 million - what an insane thing to spend money on lmao

 

@TBideon - not all of these feasibility studies of other rail/transport - just Hyperloop...how much have cities (and other entities) spent researching a product/service that doesn't exist?

Hyperloop news. https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cleveland/noaca-announces-cleveland-hyperloop-study-results/95-389786e9-ade3-47e7-b59a-47979a17ab6a

1 hour ago, simplythis said:

Hyperloop news. https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cleveland/noaca-announces-cleveland-hyperloop-study-results/95-389786e9-ade3-47e7-b59a-47979a17ab6a

 

Hyperloop doesn't exist.  This isn't "news" other than it's more wasteful spending on a fanciful service that isn't likely to exist, and certainly not at the speeds they're claiming.

 

Give it up for Musk, though.  He's a great snake oil salesman.

Good stuff from @KJP / All Aboard Ohio http://allaboardohio.org/2019/12/16/aao-urges-policymakers-to-look-critically-at-hyperloop-consider-options/

 

So is the hyperloop going to have a credit card points program?  If not, how can it possibly break even, giving the enormous profitability of airline points programs?

 

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/airlines-make-more-money-selling-miles-than-seats?utm_source=pocket-newtab

8 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

So is the hyperloop going to have a credit card points program?  If not, how can it possibly break even, giving the enormous profitability of airline points programs?

 

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/airlines-make-more-money-selling-miles-than-seats?utm_source=pocket-newtab

 

Amateurs.  Those people need to learn how to chase those sign up bonuses and cancel cards with annual fees they aren't utilizing lol.

Imagine my surprise to open up Jalopnik just now to find our own @KJP with starring role in that site's current lead story about NOACA's Pittsburgh-Cleveland-Chicago hyperloop study! Well done, Ken.

 

Hyperloop Is The Midwest's Answer To A Question No One Asked

 

Quote

Hyperloop Is The Midwest's Answer To A Question No One Asked

Aaron Gordon

 

If you want to take the train from Cleveland to Chicago on any given weekday, a distance of approximately 350 miles, you have two options. You can catch the Capitol Limited departing at 2:59 a.m. or the Lake Shore Limited at 3:45 a.m. 

 

Supposing you do not want to catch a train in the middle of the night that will take approximately seven hours to cover 350 miles—assuming you don’t get stuck behind freight trains which happens on a not infrequent basis, lengthening the trip by at least an hour—you’re either driving or flying. 

 

Ken Prendergast has been fighting to change this since the 1980s. As Executive Director of All Aboard Ohio, a group that advocates for better transit in the Buckeye State, he’s been trying to get more and better Amtrak service between the two cities for years. In the grand scheme of things, this would not cost that much money. With basic track upgrades, running some more trains, and prioritizing passenger over freight rail, taking the train to and from Chicago could be a much more reasonable proposition. 

 

“You could run the train at 90 miles an hour and cover the distance between Cleveland and Chicago in five hours or less, which would beat the car, certainly on a snowy day like today,” Prendergast told me over the phone. 

 

 

 

16 hours ago, Terdolph said:

Not sure about that.  Wasn't the concept of the airfoil and lift pretty new at the time of the Wright bros.?  Wasn't everyone else trying to fly with just angle of attack? (needs a lot of power).  Also, wasn't it basically the Wright bros. who discovered that an airfoil in a turn lost lift on the inside wing and gained lift on the outside wing causing the aircraft to roll over-which led to the solution (wing warping).  Without that, even powered flight was impossible (couldn't make a turn). 

 

I believe that is what the Wright Bros. got their patent on-wing warping.

 

Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

The first patent did cover wing-warping, yes.

https://www.libraries.wright.edu/special/wrightbrothers/patents

Basically this applies to anything Elon thinks up, but especially the Hyperloop

 

 

isnt musk in the middle of building something in vegas? not a hyperloop, but kind of a practice transit tunnel or something?

@mrnyc Elon's Boring Company is digging tunnels under the city for Teslas. The idea is that your car would be carried and rocketed forward through the tunnel on a platform providing "fast, easy, and foolproof" transit from point A to point B. Essentially a people mover for your car.

 

https://www.lvloop.com/vegasloop

Edited February 6, 20205 yr by tastybunns

^ To be clear, the only part of this map that has been approved and is under construction is the small section underneath the convention center. It's a "transit system" that transports people from one end of the convention center to the other. The rest of the system is a pie-in-the-sky fantasy right now.

Here is a Youtube B1M video that mentions the Chicago / Cleveland / Pittsburgh Hyperloop. 

In 2029, a Hyperloop Could Turn Columbus, Ohio, Into a Suburb of Chicago

By Justin Davidson

 

The other day in Chicago, a friend who lives in Columbus, Ohio, 360 miles away, texted me a last-minute dinner invitation. I walked to the Michigan Avenue Hyperloop station and, because I had just missed a downtown-Columbus-bound pod, waited a full 29 seconds for the next one. It was a little unnerving to spend 30 minutes in a seemingly stationary compartment while hurtling across three midwestern states — no passing landscape, no shudder or bounce, no engine hum or rumble of wheels, just total stillness at 600 miles per hour. Changing time zones gave me an unaccounted hour and I briefly considered filling it with a quick detour to Pittsburgh, another 360 miles round trip.

 

By the standards of current technology, that fictional vignette is absurd: Chicago to Pittsburgh is a seven-hour drive (not counting traffic or roadwork delays) and even flying takes half a day by the time you’ve gotten to O’Hare. Which raises a multibillion-dollar question: How reasonable does it look as prediction?

 

I’m not much of a futurist. I tend to think that realizing the fantasy of jet-speed surface transportation will depend more on bureaucracy and political will than on engineering wizardry. The technology already exists, in embryonic form: a 500-meter test track designed by rocket scientists in the desert outside Las Vegas. The company that built it, Virgin Hyperloop One, has put out the word in all 50 states that it’s looking for somewhere to build a longer track and research center. Spinning magnets cause a vehicle the size of a small bus to levitate, then send it zipping through a vacuum tube. The pods line up in a high-speed conga line, with one after another breaking away to a separate destination along the way, while the others keep shooting along. Every trip is direct. “You get there fast, you don’t have to wait, and you don’t stop along the way,” promises Josh Giegel, one of the company’s co-founders.

 

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/11/by-2029-a-hyperloop-could-make-columbus-a-chicago-suburb.html

^Funny.  Fifteen years ago I recall hearing Cincinnati's then-vice mayor Roxanne Qualls remark that Cincinnati might become a suburb of Chicago with high speed rail. 

 

Even if a 600-700mph sewer pipe pellet was made to physically exist, the total door-to-door trip time as compared to a 200mph express train would hardly be faster. 

 

Don’t know why a big city would aspire to be a suburb of an even larger city. Not that it’s going to happen anyway.

well i see they hired jay walder as ceo and he was head of mta, so they do have someone with experience in running mass transit in charge. 

 

lets see if they can move a box around at a profit first, then we'll talk people.

I'd bet that we have nuclear fusion about the same time all the technical challenges of the hyperloop are worked out.

https://interestingengineering.com/biggest-challenges-stand-in-the-way-of-hyperloop

 

But maybe Musk will surprise.  Someone will get a fast ride later this year, right?

https://www.esquireme.com/content/32091-worlds-first-hyperloop-system-to-open-in-abu-dhabi-in-2020

Doesn't anybody ever question some of the other numbers that get tossed around for this project--like when they become reality?  The "Big Dig" project in Boston was projected to cost $2.5 billion.  When it was completed, it cost $24.3 billion.  If what happened in Boston comes true in the Cleveland to Chicago hyperloop (projected to cost $24.7 to $29.8 billion), would the "final" price tag come in the range of $250 to $300 billion?  These projects always have a way of costing much more than projected.

 

Then there are the projected ridership counts.  Per a March, 2018 Cleveland.com article: https://www.cleveland.com/architecture/2018/03/is_hyperloop_hyped_in_ohio_pro.html it stated that 54,720 people would use the service between Cleveland and Chicago a day.  Assuming that is the number is for both directions, 27,360 would take a one-direction trip.  If the 40-passenger capsules are used, it would amount to 684 trips in one direction a day.  This translates to one departure every 126 seconds during a 24-hour period.  If 28-passenger capsules are used, it becomes 1 departure every 88 seconds for the entire day.  How long will it take to load and unload a capsule?  Hopefully a station would have multiple platforms for this purpose.

 

So, roughly every 90 seconds to 2 minutes, a 28 to 40 passenger projectile will be launched in closed tube and they will travel at speeds of 760 miles per hour.  If one of those capsules suddenly becomes disabled and stops, who would want to be in that stopped capsule?  Or who would want to be in one of the multiple ones that follow? 

Edited May 9, 20205 yr by LifeLongClevelander

On 7/11/2019 at 10:24 PM, jmecklenborg said:

The hyperloop is never, ever going to exist.  This is all a money laundering/Theranos type scam.  A wolf in Tech's clothing. 

 

 

Yawn:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/09/tech/virgin-hyperloop-west-virginia-trnd/index.html

“We simplified this a lot. It’s basically just Teslas in tunnels at this point.”

 

Elon Musk’s Las Vegas Loop might only carry a fraction of the passengers it promised

 

https://techcrunch.com/2020/10/16/elon-musks-las-vegas-loop-might-only-carry-a-fraction-of-the-passengers-it-promised/amp/?__twitter_impression=true&fbclid=IwAR1X3_W6TDg7T8tsN_5gxFOAq2gJ8csZ4lj_jwy1jEmJ5h62bcq4cdhR-kY

But he PROMISED 

30 minutes ago, BigDipper 80 said:

“We simplified this a lot. It’s basically just Teslas in tunnels at this point.”

 

Anyone who knows anything about transit already knew that "Teslas in tunnels" is all it was ever going to be.

Speaking of traveling in "loops", where have we heard this before?

 

Quote

Although TBC’s Loop website says that the system will use autonomous vehicles, a TBC executive told a planning committee last year that the cars would have human drivers “for additional safety.”

 

And nobody has ever explained the intention of the term "loop", leading the skeptic to speculate that Musk coined it in order to intentionally confuse all conversations surrounding the subway.  

 

A loop is a line that curves until it rejoins itself.  A line that doesn't do that is just a line.  At no point have we seen any of Musk's "loops" actually propose a line that curves back on itself and functions like a circle.  Instead, we actually had a proposal to build a "loop" to Chicago's Loop.  No, not a new loop that encircles a loop - Musk succeeded in changing the English language without anyone calling him out on his b.s.  A line now means loop, even if it doesn't circle back on itself.  

 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

Speaking of traveling in "loops", where have we heard this before?

 

 

And nobody has ever explained the intention of the term "loop", leading the skeptic to speculate that Musk coined it in order to intentionally confuse all conversations surrounding the subway.  

 

A loop is a line that curves until it rejoins itself.  A line that doesn't do that is just a line.  At no point have we seen any of Musk's "loops" actually propose a line that curves back on itself and functions like a circle.  Instead, we actually had a proposal to build a "loop" to Chicago's Loop.  No, not a new loop that encircles a loop - Musk succeeded in changing the English language without anyone calling him out on his b.s.  A line now means loop, even if it doesn't circle back on itself.  

 

This is actually a very astute point, and I can't believe nobody else has mentioned it lol.

 

Hyper.....line?

19 hours ago, taestell said:

 

Anyone who knows anything about transit already knew that "Teslas in tunnels" is all it was ever going to be.

I don't believe this was ever sold as anything else.  This was always a vehicle mover.  Not sure why this article is in the Hyperloop thread because it was never meant to be Hyperloop.

Who on earth signed-off on a mass people moving system literally comprised of people driving passengers between stations in cars over the dozens of more efficient options used everyday in cities and airports around the country and the world?

The gambling industry.

On 10/17/2020 at 9:52 AM, TH3BUDDHA said:

I don't believe this was ever sold as anything else.  This was always a vehicle mover.  Not sure why this article is in the Hyperloop thread because it was never meant to be Hyperloop.

 

Yeah, this isn't really Hyperloop at all - just Musk selling snake oil.  If Las Vegas was interested in mass transit, they wouldn't have awarded Musk this contract.

The Las Vegas loop is super dumb. All of this tunnel boring to drive...cars...through it. A claimed top speed of 155 miles per hour is pretty laughable to considering it goes between a convention center and a parking lot. 

 

I think I have seen horizontal wheels like these that keep a vehicle inside a track before...maybe on one of the log rides at Kings Island? LOL, autonomous vehicles...

 

Edited October 19, 20204 yr by greenville2

^Guide wheels have been around for decades, literally. Look at this guided bus in Australia:

 

 

Literally nothing about this tunnel is revolutionary, or even evolutionary. There's already a 40 year old solution that carries more passengers than this dumb tunnel. 

Edited October 19, 20204 yr by BigDipper 80

20 minutes ago, BigDipper 80 said:

nothing about this tunnel is revolutionary, or even evolutionary.

I'm still confused by this thread right now and why this is in the Hyperloop thread.  Did anybody read up on this when is was actually proposed?  This was never meant to be revolutionary and was never meant to be hyperloop technology.  This was always just a contract with the tunnel boring company to build a tunnel for cars.  I get that everybody here seems to have a hard on for hating Musk, but this project is exactly what it was always going to be.

The Hyperloop isn't a real thing, so it doesn't really matter whether it's posted in this thread or in the Elon Musk thread. 

something new on it:

 

 

OPINION - OUR NEW FUTURE

Op-ed: The hyperloop will revolutionize transportation in the post-coronavirus world

PUBLISHED WED, SEP 2 20209:28 AM EDTUPDATED WED, SEP 2 20209:53 AM EDT

Lucas Asher, CEO of TowerEquity.com

 

 

Even though hyperloop capsules can reach speeds of 760 miles per hour, on a practical level, this transportation sector appears to be stalled.

 

Nearly all high-density transportation, from airlines to bullet trains, has come to a near halt amid the worst pandemic in a hundred years. Amtrak cars are deserted, as the railroad passenger service weighs cutting more jobs and access to rural areas. Consulting firm Deloitte notes transportation organizations must contend with “skeletal” workforces and an “unexpected shortfall in their finances” for the foreseeable future.

 

The challenges facing the transportation sector are significant and multi-faceted.

 

But past the pitfalls of this antiquated system of steel railroads and cumbersome commercial flights lies a faster future. When we arrive, we’ll enjoy new travel experiences defined by safety, speed, environmentalism and improved comfort.

 

To get there, you’ll need a fifth mode of transportation: Something low density, yet high volume. Something that is twice the speed of a plane, yet safer than any current public transportation; you’ll need something that is sustainable, reliable, and immune to weather variations. In other words, you’ll need a hyperloop.

 

Coined by Elon Musk in 2013, hyperloop is a bold engineering initiative to send elevated passenger pods through tubes using magnetic fields, allowing people to travel even faster than modern airplanes from city-to-city. Although the concept sounds futuristic, we are actually very close to realizing it. From Musk to Richard Branson, the world’s greatest minds are building out testing sites across the United States to conduct high velocity experiments. And both state and federal governments are recognizing the value this technology has to their communities.

 

 

more:

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/02/hyperloop-will-revolutionize-transportation-in-post-coronavirus-world.html

 

 

hyperloop demo -- now with 30% more lensflare 

 

Edited October 19, 20204 yr by mrnyc

1 hour ago, greenville2 said:

I think I have seen horizontal wheels like these that keep a vehicle inside a track before...maybe on one of the log rides at Kings Island?

 

Yeah on the log flume, Amazon Falls, etc.  

1 hour ago, TH3BUDDHA said:

but this project is exactly what it was always going to be.

 

That's the thing, though: it's not what Musk promised.

 

Remember that Musk previously said that subways are an outdated idea, what cities really need is a Tesla Tunnel that will allow people to take their private automobile from one end of the city to the other. When people informed Musk that his tunnel would have a very low capacity and would get congested very easily, he called them "Subway Stalinists" and continued to push his free market solution. He claimed that Tesla is working on higher capacity vehicles that could travel through these tunnels -- but to my knowledge, we haven't seen any evidence that Tesla is actually working on building these. According to the article that @BigDipper 80 linked above, Musk promised that the Vegas tunnel would be able to transport 4,400 people/hour, but the solution he's delivered is only capable of transporting a maximum of 1,200 people/hour once it is fully built out. He's a snake oil salesman, plain and simple, and civic leaders keep believing him because he's supposedly a genius rich guy.

 

Now, I agree that the Tesla Tunnel is completely different technology than the Hyperloop, and this discussion probably belongs in the Musk thread or a new thread dedicated to the Tesla Tunnel concept.

37 minutes ago, taestell said:

what cities really need is a Tesla Tunnel that will allow people to take their private automobile from one end of the city to the other.

That's exactly what this is, though.  So I'm not sure how he failed on his promise here.  No revolutionary technology was ever promised to actually move those vehicles from A to B.  It was just a contract to build a tunnel, put Teslas in it, and use basic technology to move those Teslas.  This project DOES deliver on the "Tesla Tunnel" promise.

 

37 minutes ago, taestell said:

Musk promised that the Vegas tunnel would be able to transport 4,400 people/hour, but the solution he's delivered is only capable of transporting a maximum of 1,200

This is the promise that may be broken.  This is exactly what the first article posted is about.  But, the limit isn't because of some failure to deliver some revolutionary technology, as everyone commenting here seems to believe. The failure on capacity is due to a fire code:

 

"Fire regulations peg the occupant capacity in the load and unload zones of one of the Loop’s three stations at just 800 passengers an hour. If the other stations have similar limitations, the system might only be able to transport 1,200 people an hour — around a quarter of its promised capacity."

 

 

Edited October 19, 20204 yr by TH3BUDDHA

TMZ covers manned 100mph hyperloop test:

https://www.tmz.com/2020/11/09/hyperloop-first-test-human-passengers-100-miles-per-hour/

 

Was the tube depressurized?  No way to know - nobody reported it.  If so, how long did it take to depressurize and then return to normal pressure so the passengers could get out?  Where is a working station - let alone a high capacity station model?  

more:

 

https://nypost.com/2020/11/09/virgin-hyperloop-completes-first-test-with-actual-passengers/