March 8, 20214 yr Quote Ugly buildings have a habit of becoming cherished when they are old enough. "Of course I'm respectable, I'm old. Politicians, ugly buildings and whores all get respectable if they last long enough." -Noah Cross (John Huston) to J.J. Gittes (Jack Nicholson) in Chinatown.
March 8, 20214 yr 7 hours ago, Mendo said: Where did you get the floor plate size for the Justice Center? Google Maps is accurate enough for a decent estimate. The courthouse tower looks around 30,000 SQFT. The CPD building about 36k SQFT. Still large, but not impossible to convert to apartments. The tower would have some killer views. I also did measuring pn Google Earth. Perhaps my math was off. But the elevator bank is on one side of the building which complicates things, at best. So far, every developer who I've spoken with would rather demolish the courthouse tower and start over than try to convert it. Obviously I haven't talked to every developer so I'm sure there's someone who might want to try to convert it. I just haven't heard from one yet. I'd love to hear their ideas. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 8, 20214 yr Interesting. The elevators being near an exterior wall complicates the layout a lot. What developer wouldn't prefer a blank slate? It's cheaper to get the county pay for demolition and deliver a shovel ready site. It takes away all their risk. And when they run into financing issues they can put up a parking lot to print money in the meantime. It was posted earlier and I agree. Empty blocks in Cleveland have a habit of sticking around a long time.
March 8, 20214 yr There are actually multiple elevator shafts in the court tower. Three are used by the public, one by elected judges, jury members and court personnel, one service elevator, and one elevator used to transport people from the jail directly to the court rooms. It might be simpler to just start from scratch if there was a developer who was serious about the site. I would question how serious, however.
March 8, 20214 yr 6 minutes ago, Oldmanladyluck said: There are actually multiple elevator shafts in the court tower. Three are used by the public, one by elected judges, jury members and court personnel, one service elevator, and one elevator used to transport people from the jail directly to the court rooms. It might be simpler to just start from scratch if there was a developer who was serious about the site. I would question how serious, however. How many elevators are not part of the elevator bank at the west edge of the building? If there's three near the center of the floorplates, that would probably suffice. The Lumen has only three elevators for a 34-story, 318-unit building. That's probably too few, but if one of them is a service elevator for moving furniture, large deliveries, etc., that can alleviate a lot of problems. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 8, 20214 yr So I'm no engineer, I'm just some guy who posts on the internet, but the placement of a new courthouse tower doesn't seem that complicated to me. If you look at the Justice Center block, such a small portion of it is occupied by the tower. Moving the jails and CPD HQ off the site leaves over 3/4 of the block to build a replacement tower on, while the existing tower stays in use. Then you can do any number of things with the site of the old tower. And sure, this is an oversimplification, and the buildings are all connected so you've got to plan carefully, but in the big picture this seems pretty straightforward. And at this stage we're still working on the big picture, so I don't know why its taking so long.
March 8, 20214 yr There is absolutely room, but the expense from time-related cost escalations is the killer. To move the jails, it will take a year or so to acquire property and to design, another year or so to build and months to remediate, demolish and clear/clean the site. Then, it will take another two years to build a courthouse tower on the site of one of the jails. So we're potentially looking at five to six years before a new courthouse is open -- assuming everything moves along as it should. Construction costs are escalating at 4-6 percent per year, so they also compound. Construction costs rising at 4 percent annually would therefore increase by 23 percent over five years. At 6 percent per year, it increases by 42 percent over six years (double-check my math, please). I heard an interesting rumor about a site they're considering. Even though it's just a rumor, I'll write about it because sometimes it's fun to get the planning juices going in the community. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 8, 20214 yr 9 minutes ago, KJP said: There is absolutely room, but the expense from time-related cost escalations is the killer. To move the jails, it will take a year or so to acquire property and to design, another year or so to build and months to remediate, demolish and clear/clean the site. Then, it will take another two years to build a courthouse tower on the site of one of the jails. So we're potentially looking at five to six years before a new courthouse is open -- assuming everything moves along as it should. Construction costs are escalating at 4-6 percent per year, so they also compound. Construction costs rising at 4 percent annually would therefore increase by 23 percent over five years. At 6 percent per year, it increases by 42 percent over six years (double-check my math, please). I heard an interesting rumor about a site they're considering. Even though it's just a rumor, I'll write about it because sometimes it's fun to get the planning juices going in the community. Yeah, the cost escalation certainly is a valid concern, but that's all the more reason why this should be a quicker process. There are also costs to leaving a big hole in downtown. I hope a decision about the next 50+ years is not penny wise, pound foolish. I look forward to the next KJP rumor update.
March 8, 20214 yr 13 hours ago, KJP said: I also did measuring pn Google Earth. Perhaps my math was off. But the elevator bank is on one side of the building which complicates things, at best. So far, every developer who I've spoken with would rather demolish the courthouse tower and start over than try to convert it. Obviously I haven't talked to every developer so I'm sure there's someone who might want to try to convert it. I just haven't heard from one yet. I'd love to hear their ideas. My math was off -- the floorplates of the existing Justice Center courthouse tower are about 28,000 SF. When I measure using Google Earth's polygon, I get a bad result. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 8, 20214 yr 2 hours ago, KJP said: My math was off -- the floorplates of the existing Justice Center courthouse tower are about 28,000 SF. When I measure using Google Earth's polygon, I get a bad result. In this case, it may not be size that matters, but shape. There's a reason that most apartment buildings are skinny rectangles, or Y-shaped or L-shaped. People like windows.
March 8, 20214 yr Not to throw cold water on the idea of saving the current tower in some form, but I think it's worth some people's time to read the assessment report from a few years ago. That whole complex is in rough shape, partially from poor upkeep, but there were a lot of very poor (ie cost cutting) design decisions made. Plumbing is in horrible shape, elevators break all the time, mechanical systems are constantly on the verge of a breakdown, atrium has leaked basically since day 1, etc, etc. Not saying it couldn't be saved and made into something great, we've certainly seen it before with The 9, but any conversions likely mean a total gut and rebuild inside.
March 8, 20214 yr Before the great points about how long it was take, and how much more expensive that extra time would make the project, I was loving the idea of building a new towner where CPD and the jails are. I still think that would be best, but that's a big cost increase. Once the economy and particularly the convention business comes back, that site would be great for another convention center hotel. I think the county would be wise to partner with a developer for that.
March 9, 20214 yr 17 hours ago, CLEeng said: Not to throw cold water on the idea of saving the current tower in some form, but I think it's worth some people's time to read the assessment report from a few years ago. That whole complex is in rough shape, partially from poor upkeep, but there were a lot of very poor (ie cost cutting) design decisions made. Plumbing is in horrible shape, elevators break all the time, mechanical systems are constantly on the verge of a breakdown, atrium has leaked basically since day 1, etc, etc. Not saying it couldn't be saved and made into something great, we've certainly seen it before with The 9, but any conversions likely mean a total gut and rebuild inside. Yea, I think if you were going to convert to something else, it would be a full gut whatever you do. Beyond the fact a new layout would likely not fit the shift and chase locations for mechanical systems, reusing whats there would not make any sense. I've mentioned before that tower and atrium could be a great Convention Hotel setup (Thinkimg Marriott Marquis or Omni Hotels in Atlanta). But with the underground tunnels and garages it could be connected to the existing Convention Center and hotel. Add in some street level retail presence and the west side of the mall/Convention center would be connected to the Warehouse District at least with ground floor retail uses and possibly also underground connections as well, which would be great late December through February.
March 9, 20214 yr To bad we cannot fit the new Browns stadium on the current Justice Center Complex block, it would be perfect to have it right next to the convention center.
March 9, 20214 yr Thanks again @Geowizical! TUESDAY, MARCH 9, 2021 The Justice Center plan that could transform downtown At the end of this month, on March 25, the Justice Center Steering Committee may make a decision on whether to build a huge new Cuyahoga County-City of Cleveland courthouse facility or rehabilitate and expand the existing one at 1200 Ontario St. According to sources, the early odds have the committee preferring a new courthouse, primarily due to its lower cost over the next 30 years. The committee has already decided to relocate the jails out of downtown to a low-rise campus facility. The only question is where. MORE: https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2021/03/the-justice-center-plan-that-could.html "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 9, 20214 yr Between the Justice Center redevelopment, SW Headquarters, plans for the Shoreway and lakefront connections, redevelopment of 55 Public Square and the Magellan project, it would make a lot of sense for the City to rethink the form and function of W. 3rd St- as it is looking like it will be an important spine of 21st Century Cleveland.
March 9, 20214 yr Does anyone else think that Ken may just write this one into existence?? Seriously. What a great plan and attractive option that accounts for the needs of the Steering Committee, the aesthetics of being located next to the Court of Appeals, and the cultural/historical nature of Fort Huntington Park.
March 9, 20214 yr This is similar to a suggestion I made a few pages back (to little fanfare 😢) If they are thinking midrise then my idea of putting it behind the park would not work due to space constraints. I agree though, all of this looks like it could come together for a massive revamp of the west 3rd corridor... our second (of 2) entries to the lake which are currently both crap. E9th being the other one. That was the purpose of the rectangle I illustrated along w3 bridge. I envisioned a 3-5 story building over the tracks, housing ancillary court uses and retail that would additionally connect transit to the main tower and also serve the overall city benefit of pushing a continuous connection/street wall to the the lake.
March 9, 20214 yr Great job KJP, great article! I'm very hesitant to surrender any green space downtown, but I agree this would be a good trade, and the current park is underutilized. I'm a little worried the city will flop on the follow through if they decide to go this route, and the second and third phases won't look this good. But we can't make plans unless we assume they will get executed. Honestly my pet idea for this park has been to make the top surface lot portion of both huntington parking garage, and willard parking garage into green space, creating a long unbroken park between Willard park and Fort Huntington Park connecting to the malls. This would also be really go well with an eventual land bridge over the rail tracks and highway. Though I'm probably just dreaming... Edited March 9, 20214 yr by Ethan Typo
March 9, 20214 yr I didn’t see this coming but ^this^ version of a new JC>>SW’s hq🤷♂️. Me likey a lot.
March 9, 20214 yr Interesting ideas on the musical chairs to make this happen. I am however uninterested in additional large scale green spaces downtown. The ones we have are already under utilized.
March 9, 20214 yr Anyone else feel like if they go with the idea to build a new tower across lakeside and tear down the existing block to redevelop with a park and or new buildings per kjp idea, we will end up with a sherwin Williams super block of parking for next 10+ years while the county/city holds up development ideas? Or worse yet a giant hole? Lol surely not but let’s not overthink this. It took how long to find use for Ameritrust lots?
March 9, 20214 yr The difference maker would be the parking underneath the relocated park. That removes a huge expense for developers of high rise housing downtown. So far the only residential highrises built recently are the ones that could take advantage of existing structured parking. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 9, 20214 yr And wouldn’t it greatly increase the likelihood of a new high rise tower replacing the Justice Center if a developer knew that the existing caissons were ready for them?
March 9, 20214 yr 3 minutes ago, Taller_is_better said: Anyone else feel like if they go with the idea to build a new tower across lakeside and tear down the existing block to redevelop with a park and or new buildings per kjp idea, we will end up with a sherwin Williams super block of parking for next 10+ years while the county/city holds up development ideas? Or worse yet a giant hole? Lol surely not but let’s not overthink this. It took how long to find use for Ameritrust lots? I think the County owning the land as opposed to a private owner makes a big difference. I see the County being more likely to work with developers on a realistic, if not, advantageous, sale price. I imagine the land swap will be needed to pay for the new project too, so they will be even more motivated to make something work. The reason we ended up with all those surface lots downtown is that there was little incentive for private owners to sell. Still, Lakewood tried to do the same thing with the Lakewood Hospital site, and the developer fell through and left a pit in the middle of downtown. But like the Lakewood Hospital site, I don't think the Courthouse site would sit indefinitely because government typically has more to gain through making a development happen.
March 9, 20214 yr 41 minutes ago, w28th said: Interesting ideas on the musical chairs to make this happen. I am however uninterested in additional large scale green spaces downtown. The ones we have are already under utilized. I agree with w28th. I love the overall idea, but lose the green space. Downtown has more green space than it needs already. We sorely need new development to populate the open spaces we already have.
March 9, 20214 yr 5 minutes ago, Dino said: I agree with w28th. I love the overall idea, but lose the green space. Downtown has more green space than it needs already. We sorely need new development to populate the open spaces we already have. I strongly disagree with both of you, and think Downtown has far too little green space. This isn't the thread to discuss who is right, but realistically speaking, I'm pretty confident most of the people who live downtown agree with me. Which means the city will be in a PR nightmare if they propose closing down a park (even an underutilized one) without proposing a replacement park. So I think replacement green space is a necessary part of the proposal if the new Justice Center is to be built on Fort Huntington Park.
March 9, 20214 yr I think that's probably right, practically speaking. But I never felt when I lived Downtown like there wasn't enough greenspace. I did often feel that what we had was underutilitized- sometimes leaving it feeling empty, and sometimes even leaving it feeling unsafe. I like better the idea of swapping Fort Huntington Park for the land that the real Fort Huntington was on and rebuilding that as a park with the fort as a feature. But that may not satisfy the public demands that are likely as a result of building over a park.
March 9, 20214 yr 15 minutes ago, Ethan said: I strongly disagree with both of you, and think Downtown has far too little green space. This isn't the thread to discuss who is right, but realistically speaking, I'm pretty confident most of the people who live downtown agree with me. Which means the city will be in a PR nightmare if they propose closing down a park (even an underutilized one) without proposing a replacement park. So I think replacement green space is a necessary part of the proposal if the new Justice Center is to be built on Fort Huntington Park. I respect your opinion and agree that eliminating the park would be a thorny issue to many.
March 10, 20214 yr 2 hours ago, Dino said: I agree with w28th. I love the overall idea, but lose the green space. Downtown has more green space than it needs already. We sorely need new development to populate the open spaces we already have. I agree. I live down the street and nobody ever uses that park.
March 10, 20214 yr 3 hours ago, X said: I think that's probably right, practically speaking. But I never felt when I lived Downtown like there wasn't enough greenspace. I did often feel that what we had was underutilitized- sometimes leaving it feeling empty, and sometimes even leaving it feeling unsafe. I like better the idea of swapping Fort Huntington Park for the land that the real Fort Huntington was on and rebuilding that as a park with the fort as a feature. But that may not satisfy the public demands that are likely as a result of building over a park. X, we’ve been agreeing on a lot of things lately. What a world...
March 10, 20214 yr I respect your opinion and agree that eliminating the park would be a thorny issue to many.I wonder if lining it with residential would increase the use? I love this plan. Can’t waIt till the JC is gone Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
March 10, 20214 yr This looks great with one glaring thing in my mind. There's zero need for a park right there. Downtown Cleveland has a major design issue in that its roads are often too wide and it already has wide open greenspaces that go heavily underutilized right around the corner from this. I'd so much rather see more density, maybe with pocket public spaces that offer something completely different, and the focus to go towards things like making the Malls more usable since they're right there already. Otherwise, seeing this type of transformation alongside Sherwin Williams would be incredible. I love coming home to Cleveland and always seeing the changes in person that are happening.
March 10, 20214 yr I think a playground in this location would be great. We have a lot of formal greenspace in the immediate area but it might be great to have a place for kids.
March 10, 20214 yr Is there a thread to discuss green space in Cleveland? While I'd like more green space downtown, I also agree with what most people here are saying about downtowns current green spaces being underutilized, and I've had thoughts about what could be done about that.
March 10, 20214 yr There will be more green space coming at Canal Basin Park, although that will not be in the center of downtown.
March 10, 20214 yr 17 hours ago, w28th said: Interesting ideas on the musical chairs to make this happen. I am however uninterested in additional large scale green spaces downtown. The ones we have are already under utilized. A few playgrounds, adult swings, rock-climbing walls, spraygrounds, outdoor fitness products and other interactive features can do wonders for a park. Too many of our parks are merely places to put statues and benches. 16 minutes ago, Ethan said: Is there a thread to discuss green space in Cleveland? While I'd like more green space downtown, I also agree with what most people here are saying about downtowns current green spaces being underutilized, and I've had thoughts about what could be done about that. There is now!! "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 10, 20214 yr I still think it was a shame that the Hanna Fountains were removed from the Mall. Before they were removed, there was so much more activity on the Malls.
March 10, 20214 yr In regard to the image I posted above, my biggest hope is to clear that site of anything involving the In-Justice Center. My biggest fear is that it would qualify for historic tax credits and it would never change, for the next 50 years it will be the same. But quickly about the park, I think I see Urban Green Space different than most. The ultimate for me would be as if you dropped 20 acres of the Metroparks and placed it in the center of the City, surrounded by residential. I am always looking for a place in the CBD to do that.
March 10, 20214 yr 2 hours ago, freethink said: In regard to the image I posted above, my biggest hope is to clear that site of anything involving the In-Justice Center. My biggest fear is that it would qualify for historic tax credits and it would never change, for the next 50 years it will be the same. But quickly about the park, I think I see Urban Green Space different than most. The ultimate for me would be as if you dropped 20 acres of the Metroparks and placed it in the center of the City, surrounded by residential. I am always looking for a place in the CBD to do that. The Cleveland Orchestra could also use an outdoor home in the CBD. Something akin to Boston's Hatch Shell on the Esplanade or Chicago's Millennium Park venue.
March 10, 20214 yr Unpopular opinion here but downtown, at least this part of downtown, does NOT need more greenspace, especially with Public Square and the Mall are literally each a block away. The Mall is super underutilized as it is. Let's focus on making better use of the large amount of greenspace we already have. I doubt anyone actually uses Fort Huntington Park, it's super isolated. I love the idea of putting the courthouse tower where the park is located, but I don't think the park has to be replaced. I don't like that they would be breaking up the street grid either (or at least it appears that way from the diagrams).
March 10, 20214 yr 52 minutes ago, mas1092 said: Unpopular opinion here but downtown, at least this part of downtown, does NOT need more greenspace, especially with Public Square and the Mall are literally each a block away. The Mall is super underutilized as it is. Let's focus on making better use of the large amount of greenspace we already have. I doubt anyone actually uses Fort Huntington Park, it's super isolated. Agreed. Plenty of greenspace that is already underutilized.
March 10, 20214 yr 1 hour ago, mas1092 said: Unpopular opinion here but downtown, at least this part of downtown, does NOT need more greenspace, especially with Public Square and the Mall are literally each a block away. The Mall is super underutilized as it is. Let's focus on making better use of the large amount of greenspace we already have. I doubt anyone actually uses Fort Huntington Park, it's super isolated. I love the idea of putting the courthouse tower where the park is located, but I don't think the park has to be replaced. I don't like that they would be breaking up the street grid either (or at least it appears that way from the diagrams). The Justice Center broke up a pedestrian friendly street grid of short blocks and created a superblock that is anti-pedestrian. Without the Justice Center there anymore, a park over a garage would restore walking paths between Ontario and West 3rd including offering restaurants/outdoor dining spots along the park-sides of new buildings. I'd also put mature trees in the park including some evergreens. Put a playground and a fountain and I think you've got a winner. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 10, 20214 yr I like the idea of moving the Justice Center to the park; one thing that will need to be addressed is vehicular access for transporting prisoners. With an off-site jail there will be a lot more activity of vans or busses coming and going. That entrance would have to be highly secured so I would expect it would be removed from the north or east sides of the park, where the general public accesses the garage. It would be unsightly on Lakeside, so that leaves the W. 3rd side. There should be room, but its something that needs to be taken into account.
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