15 hours ago, ryanfrazier said:

I like the idea of moving the Justice Center to the park; one thing that will need to be addressed is vehicular access for transporting prisoners.  With an off-site jail there will be a lot more activity of vans or busses coming and going.  That entrance would have to be highly secured so I would expect it would be removed from the north or east sides of the park, where the general public accesses the garage.  It would be unsightly on Lakeside, so that leaves the W. 3rd side.  There should be room, but its something that needs to be taken into account.

I can't remember which forum I mentioned it in, but because of the prisoner transport, I like the idea of the Justice Center on the river view site, with direct rail connections to the court tower from a jail site on the east side.  This would provide very secure and reliable prisoner transport while injecting money into RTA's rail budget (helping save it for the rest of us).  

^Are you proposing transporting prisoners on the Red Line? Do other cities transport prisoners on their rail transit to-and-from court? I don’t know the answer, so I’m asking seriously. I also don’t know if there could be more of a potential turn-off for people than having to sit next to prisoners in orange jumpsuits, on the Red Line. RTA would have some serious work ahead of them to repair any potential damage to their image, which sucks among some in the general public anyways. “Come board the Red Line, where prisoners are taken to court for sentencing”. 

1 hour ago, Cleburger said:

I can't remember which forum I mentioned it in, but because of the prisoner transport, I like the idea of the Justice Center on the river view site, with direct rail connections to the court tower from a jail site on the east side.  This would provide very secure and reliable prisoner transport while injecting money into RTA's rail budget (helping save it for the rest of us).  

 

5 minutes ago, Oldmanladyluck said:

^Are you proposing transporting prisoners on the Red Line? Do other cities transport prisoners on their rail transit to-and-from court? I don’t know the answer, so I’m asking seriously. I also don’t know if there could be more of a potential turn-off for people than having to sit next to prisoners in orange jumpsuits, on the Red Line. RTA would have some serious work ahead of them to repair any potential damage to their image, which sucks among some in the general public anyways. “Come board the Red Line, where prisoners are taken to court for sentencing”. 

I’m sure the idea would be to use separate, dedicated trains. Maybe this could work if the put the jail in that dead area just south of the “Tri-C” /East 34th station, north of 490, on either side of Broadway. (Which might be a good spot for the prison anyway.)  I tend to agree that it would be bad for perception of RTA, but it is at least worth considering. 

In Phoenix, then-Sheriff Joe Arpaio planned to use prisoner light-rail trains. It was met with heavy opposition and dropped...

https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/joe-arpaio-caves-backs-off-dumbass-plan-to-transport-inmates-via-light-rail-6503496

2 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

 

I’m sure the idea would be to use separate, dedicated trains. Maybe this could work if the put the jail in that dead area just south of the “Tri-C” /East 34th station, north of 490, on either side of Broadway. (Which might be a good spot for the prison anyway.)  I tend to agree that it would be bad for perception of RTA, but it is at least worth considering. 

It wouldn’t be “bad” for RTA perception. It would be “lethal”. RTA in general already has a terrible perception. For the most part, people who have options rarely choose the RTA. And it’s largely cause of its image. So yeah let’s start putting prisoners on there. That’ll help lol. Do this if you want RTA’s perception to get even worse 

34 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said:

It wouldn’t be “bad” for RTA perception. It would be “lethal”. RTA in general already has a terrible perception. For the most part, people who have options rarely choose the RTA. And it’s largely cause of its image. So yeah let’s start putting prisoners on there. That’ll help lol. Do this if you want RTA’s perception to get even worse 

 

Is it really a problem if they used a dedicated train for prisoners only and ran with locked doors between Jail and Justice Center? That wasn't the plan in Phoenix. There, the prisoners were to be mixed with regular passengers. THAT was a dumb idea. Typical Arpaio.

I get the idea is far-fetched and a hostage/rape/murder situation just waiting to happen, but it's been done before. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Amtrak transport prisoners in the 1970s? I'm sure the cars were isolated and secured, but they would be part of the train as a whole.

They shouldn't do it.  Even on totally isolated trains.  We all know that the "isolated trains" part would be left out of the rumors and it would just become everyone saying that the Red Line is full of dangerous prisoners.  RTA just plain shouldn't touch this idea with a 10 ft pole.

Thanks @skiwestyour pic gives me a chance for a slight change of direction. Does anyone happen to know the square footage that might be in play for the new jail facility? 

My understanding is that the current downtown location contains 1 million square feet in two towers. 

2 hours ago, CleveFan said:

Thanks @skiwestyour pic gives me a chance for a slight change of direction. Does anyone happen to know the square footage that might be in play for the new jail facility? 

My understanding is that the current downtown location contains 1 million square feet in two towers. 

 

The existing 25-story courthouse tower has 600,000 square feet. 

 

From one of my articles....

Planners said that the (new) courthouse tower needs to measure 877,000 square feet to address overcrowding. A new courthouse could grow by roughly 200,000 square feet if the Eighth District Court of Appeals and the Cuyahoga County Probate Court are also relocated into a new courthouse tower

 

It's possible that the appellate and probate courts will stay where they are. The other offices are scattered in a few buildings near the Justice Center and crammed into hallways and closets at the existing Justice Center.

9 hours ago, X said:

They shouldn't do it.  Even on totally isolated trains.  We all know that the "isolated trains" part would be left out of the rumors and it would just become everyone saying that the Red Line is full of dangerous prisoners.  RTA just plain shouldn't touch this idea with a 10 ft pole.

But people will be ok with vans and buses loaded with prisoners trekking down their beloved highways?   The dedicated train idea seems way more sanitized, and could come with considerable money for the RTA rail system maintenance.   Win-win.  

As of a few years ago, the old courthouse also had part of the Domestic Division in the basement. I would have to walk over there to obtain copies of old files. 

2 hours ago, Cleburger said:

But people will be ok with vans and buses loaded with prisoners trekking down their beloved highways?   The dedicated train idea seems way more sanitized, and could come with considerable money for the RTA rail system maintenance.   Win-win.  

 

People can be ok with it or not- I said RTA shouldn't do it.  They shouldn't associate prison transportation with public transit- be it trains or buses.  Let someone else do it.

7 hours ago, X said:

 

People can be ok with it or not- I said RTA shouldn't do it.  They shouldn't associate prison transportation with public transit- be it trains or buses.  Let someone else do it.

 

I see your point and agree.  I wasn't thinking that RTA run the trains, rather just share their tracks.   It could be a private contractor.  

OK, that makes more sense, then.

3 hours ago, Cleburger said:

 

I see your point and agree.  I wasn't thinking that RTA run the trains, rather just share their tracks.   It could be a private contractor.  

 

We're getting "off-track" here, but GCRTA labor unions would probably get in the way of a contractor. A mainline train operator isn't even allowed to take a train into the Central Rail yards and shops. They have to hand the train off to a yard/shop crew member.

 

Anyhoo -- I realize that a jail outside of downtown is probably going to get picked. But I would think a jail complex on the really old Union Station site between West 3rd and West 9th makes a lot of sense. It measures about 7+ acres, is very close to the existing Justice Center site, it's next to a busy railroad line and it has sat underutilized since the 1950s. No one has come up with a use for it other than a parking lot.

^The Pit?  It's isolated enough from everything else and could actually make sense.  

42 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

We're getting "off-track" here, but GCRTA labor unions would probably get in the way of a contractor. A mainline train operator isn't even allowed to take a train into the Central Rail yards and shops. They have to hand the train off to a yard/shop crew member.

 

Anyhoo -- I realize that a jail outside of downtown is probably going to get picked. But I would think a jail complex on the really old Union Station site between West 3rd and West 9th makes a lot of sense. It measures about 7+ acres, is very close to the existing Justice Center site, it's next to a busy railroad line and it has sat underutilized since the 1950s. No one has come up with a use for it other than a parking lot.

 

A courthouse tower on/in the pit would be a better use that the current parking lot, but I always wanted to see high-rise development there.  The lake views would be phenomenal.  I just assumed that it was undeveloped because of soil/foundation issues.  If so, the same would add costs to a courthouse tower.  That lot is artificial fill below the original shoreline right?  Does anyone know if the soil conditions would make a courthouse tower prohibitively expensive?  I guess the lot is big enough that you could spread out instead of up.

I was thinking jail for the pit, courthouse at Fort Huntington Park.

A jail in The Pit...my old tailgating grounds.  A jail there with the cliff in the background...it would be reminiscent of Château d'If

16 hours ago, Cleburger said:

But people will be ok with vans and buses loaded with prisoners trekking down their beloved highways?   The dedicated train idea seems way more sanitized, and could come with considerable money for the RTA rail system maintenance.   Win-win.  

If you want to make sure that more people stop riding RTA, then go ahead and push them to do this. When I was growing up folks got made fun of if they rode the RTA (or “Auntie Rita” as it was known) because in inner city Cleveland where I’m from, it was synonymous with being poor so the RTA has had a really bad reputation for years (undeservedly in many cases). If you want to increase their bad reputation, have them transport prisoners. They’ve been trying for decades to shed that bad reputation. Transporting prisoners will make that effort even harder. Hard pass

Depends on how they do it. It would be strange if it's just a private car attached to other public cars. That'd mean the passengers have to stop at the "jail" station and watch the LEO's load up prisoners into the private car. If it's a completely separate train loaded at a private siding in the Pit, that would be fine and make sense.

 

Either way I doubt they'd use trains. It will probably be a bus from door-to-door.

 

Edited March 12, 20214 yr by Mendo

If the jail were built in the “Pit” you could conceivably have several levels of secure parking and loading/unloading areas out of public view along with an underground connection to a Courthouse Tower at Ft Huntington park....possible?

The jail would be served by RTA for visitors and whatnot, but no vehicles would be required to shuttle prisoners back and forth; that has to be a substantial savings.

On 3/12/2021 at 2:47 PM, CleCaneFan said:

If the jail were built in the “Pit” you could conceivably have several levels of secure parking and loading/unloading areas out of public view along with an underground connection to a Courthouse Tower at Ft Huntington park....possible?

The jail would be served by RTA for visitors and whatnot, but no vehicles would be required to shuttle prisoners back and forth; that has to be a substantial savings.

That was my thought.  Just wondering though if the "Pit" is too good of a location for a jail.  It doesn't seem like the city would be accomplishing much by moving the jail a couple blocks north.  It would still be downtown. And it would be nice to know what the long term plan is for the shoreway. If it eventually goes away or is relocated, that area could be ripe for development and we might regret having a jail there.

 

Edited March 15, 20214 yr by skiwest

^I think The Pit would be as good of a location as we could get for a jail to be close to a rebuild of the courthouse tower on the park next door. It would be pretty much out of view of everything as well... unless the Port ever moves. That and it would be pretty visible the eight times a year or so that we have home games. But so what... the land has been vacant my entire life. If there was something that could be put there over the years, it would have been built by now.

I don’t have the motive to go back and search for just what the sq footage requirements are for this new jail but would the Pit site allow it to spread out enough to “cap” it with a green roof ala the convention center?

Have a multi-story jail structure face W 3rd with an entrance for the public and sprawl the rest of it across the pit with a green roof at grade or close to it with the elevation at Lakeside. New Ft Huntington park on the roof?

Edited March 12, 20214 yr by CleCaneFan

The downtown jails measure more than 1 million square feet. That could be spread across several four-story buildings in The Pit.

 

Unfortunately, the Steering Committee voted 12-0 to put the new jail in a low-rise (1-3 story) complex in a campus setting outside of downtown.

10 minutes ago, KJP said:

The downtown jails measure more than 1 million square feet. That could be spread across several four-story buildings in The Pit.

 

Unfortunately, the Steering Committee voted 12-0 to put the new jail in a low-rise (1-3 story) complex in a campus setting outside of downtown.

Welp, I’m guessing it’s safe to say no one was pounding the table for the jail to stay downtown but could a theoretical JC at Ft Huntington build a garage/service facility in the Pit and cap it with a green roof and connect it underground to a new tower?

A new JC no matter where it goes is going to require some manner of structured parking; why not replace a parking lot (the pit) with structured parking that would serve the new JC M-F as well as the stadium on game days and it’s close enough to serve the FEB as well. Put a green cap on it and it’s win-win-win-win😁.

On 3/12/2021 at 5:01 PM, CleCaneFan said:

A new JC no matter where it goes is going to require some manner of structured parking; why not replace a parking lot (the pit) with structured parking that would serve the new JC M-F as well as the stadium on game days and it’s close enough to serve the FEB as well. Put a green cap on it and it’s win-win-win-win😁.

Good idea!  With all the projects being planned right now I wish there was more collaboration or discussion on how different projects or developers could help each other.  Does this happen at a high level the general public is unaware of?  Or does it just not happen at all?

The committee is focused on the corrections center right now. According to its meeting agenda, the committee will not be discussing the courthouse at its monthly meeting this Thursday. But offer your opinions on where to put the new jail...

 

 

Good news, from the article on Cleveland.com, a meeting is scheduled for June 29th at which point there should be more details on Jail/Justice Center replacement.  Bad news, the consultant on the project was been given another year to complete their study.  This is the other white whale out there in my mind.  SHW, CLF and the Justice Center replacement.  Hopefully all result in gleaming new towers in Cleveland.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/cuyahoga-county/2021/06/cuyahoga-county-council-split-on-127m-contract-extension-for-justice-center-consultant.html

I consider buildings of more than 500,000 sf to be whales. Cliffs HQ may be close but not quite. Only SHW's HQ, Justice Center and another building will qualify.

 

BTW, this is just a hunch, but I wouldn't be surprised to see the new Justice Center Courthouse be a part of the lakefront plan. It's publicly owned land. Lots of parking for the Justice Center on weekdays and football games on fall/winter weekends/weeknights. It would have light-rail access. There's four skyscrapers proposed. Perhaps the Justice Center could be two of them? It would create a significant amount of foot traffic for retailers and new restaurants too.

16 minutes ago, KJP said:

I consider buildings of more than 500,000 sf to be whales. Cliffs HQ may be close but not quite. Only SHW's HQ, Justice Center and another building will qualify.

 

 

Whats this mean? 

24 minutes ago, KJP said:

I consider buildings of more than 500,000 sf to be whales. Cliffs HQ may be close but not quite. Only SHW's HQ, Justice Center and another building will qualify.

 

BTW, this is just a hunch, but I wouldn't be surprised to see the new Justice Center Courthouse be a part of the lakefront plan. It's publicly owned land. Lots of parking for the Justice Center on weekdays and football games on fall/winter weekends/weeknights. It would have light-rail access. There's four skyscrapers proposed. Perhaps the Justice Center could be two of them? It would create a significant amount of foot traffic for retailers and new restaurants too.

I'll buy the 500,000 definition.  I had CLF in there as I thought in your article there was a mention about them potentially anchoring a larger investment such that other companies (e.g., vendors that support them) could co-locate.  This other building has been mentioned publicly before???????

The Justice Center Courthouse as part of the lakefront plan would make a lot of sense - and would just generally be awesome!!!!

27 minutes ago, KJP said:.

 

BTW, this is just a hunch, but I wouldn't be surprised to see the new Justice Center Courthouse be a part of the lakefront plan. It's publicly owned land. Lots of parking for the Justice Center on weekdays and football games on fall/winter weekends/weeknights. It would have light-rail access. There's four skyscrapers proposed. Perhaps the Justice Center could be two of them? It would create a significant amount of foot traffic for retailers and new restaurants too.

Perhaps I have the wrong impression, but wouldn’t the Justice Center be a dead zone on evenings and weekends?  Especially If so, I think it would be a mistake to have it as part of the lakefront plan.  But I would’ve never put the stadium on the lakefront either. 

35 minutes ago, KJP said:

I consider buildings of more than 500,000 sf to be whales. Cliffs HQ may be close but not quite. Only SHW's HQ, Justice Center and another building will qualify.

 

BTW, this is just a hunch, but I wouldn't be surprised to see the new Justice Center Courthouse be a part of the lakefront plan. It's publicly owned land. Lots of parking for the Justice Center on weekdays and football games on fall/winter weekends/weeknights. It would have light-rail access. There's four skyscrapers proposed. Perhaps the Justice Center could be two of them? It would create a significant amount of foot traffic for retailers and new restaurants too.

I can guarantee you from personal experience that lawyers (small time and big firm litigators) with offices in the central business district are not going to want to march down to the lakefront in Jan and Feb no matter how easy it will be get down there.  Maybe things are a bit different since many CMCs, pretrials and settlement conference can be conducted by phone and the like but bottom line they still have to go to court sometime (especially criminal attorneys) and they want the court close to their offices.

37 minutes ago, KJP said:

I consider buildings of more than 500,000 sf to be whales. Cliffs HQ may be close but not quite. Only SHW's HQ, Justice Center and another building will qualify.

 

BTW, this is just a hunch, but I wouldn't be surprised to see the new Justice Center Courthouse be a part of the lakefront plan. It's publicly owned land. Lots of parking for the Justice Center on weekdays and football games on fall/winter weekends/weeknights. It would have light-rail access. There's four skyscrapers proposed. Perhaps the Justice Center could be two of them? It would create a significant amount of foot traffic for retailers and new restaurants too.

 

 

14 minutes ago, CleveFan said:

Perhaps I have the wrong impression, but wouldn’t the Justice Center be a dead zone on evenings and weekends?  Especially If so, I think it would be a mistake to have it as part of the lakefront plan.  But I would’ve never put the stadium on the lakefront either. 

I agree.  I would vote for the Bedrock site.  The Federal courthouse is already there.  It is close to RTA.  The new jail could  be built nearby.  

5 hours ago, Htsguy said:

I can guarantee you from personal experience that lawyers (small time and big firm litigators) with offices in the central business district are not going to want to march down to the lakefront in Jan and Feb no matter how easy it will be get down there.  Maybe things are a bit different since many CMCs, pretrials and settlement conference can be conducted by phone and the like but bottom line they still have to go to court sometime (especially criminal attorneys) and they want the court close to their offices.

 

I agree if they were going to be placed around back of the stadium, but the towers depicted in the plan were on either side of the mall, above the the tracks. That's a three minute walk from the current JC according to Google Maps. Certainly doable from current office locations.

18 hours ago, Htsguy said:

I can guarantee you from personal experience that lawyers (small time and big firm litigators) with offices in the central business district are not going to want to march down to the lakefront in Jan and Feb no matter how easy it will be get down there.  Maybe things are a bit different since many CMCs, pretrials and settlement conference can be conducted by phone and the like but bottom line they still have to go to court sometime (especially criminal attorneys) and they want the court close to their offices.

Just asking, but dies it really matter if the attorneys would want to walk down there or not? If the courthouse is there they have no choice.

 

I don't think the lakefront is the place for a courthouse though. Behind tower city seems more proper. Keep the lake open to hotel/leisure, or residential options with publicly accessible areas.

18 hours ago, Htsguy said:

I can guarantee you from personal experience that lawyers (small time and big firm litigators) with offices in the central business district are not going to want to march down to the lakefront in Jan and Feb no matter how easy it will be get down there.  Maybe things are a bit different since many CMCs, pretrials and settlement conference can be conducted by phone and the like but bottom line they still have to go to court sometime (especially criminal attorneys) and they want the court close to their offices.

The biggest law firm in the city is located on the wind tunnel usually known as East 9th close to the lake. A bunch of other firms are right next door in the North Point Tower. Some other pretty major firms are in the E&Y Tower, and it's plenty breezy there. Does it really make that much difference in wind to move the Justice Center 100 yards closer to the lake, particularly when lots of firms are already in major wind zones? I think this is essentially a non-issue. The legal professionals making the decision are all judges that will drive to the tower and park under it anyway.

26 minutes ago, Mov2Ohio said:

Just asking, but dies it really matter if the attorneys would want to walk down there or not? If the courthouse is there they have no choice.

 

I don't think the lakefront is the place for a courthouse though. Behind tower city seems more proper. Keep the lake open to hotel/leisure, or residential options with publicly accessible areas.

I would go further than that, and say there really isn't any reason to put a courthouse or jail on any kind of waterfront, lake or river. Both the lake and the river should be for fun, relaxing, or interesting, things that  are publicly accessible, in my opinion. 

 

There are still so many parking lots downtown far away from the water, including in the warehouse district and on both sides of 13th. I'd rather fill up one of those lots with something important, but boring, like the justice center. Maybe they just can't put together a large enough footprint in any of those lots, I don't know, and it's not up to me anyway. 

1 minute ago, LlamaLawyer said:

The biggest law firm in the city is located on the wind tunnel usually known as East 9th close to the lake. A bunch of other firms are right next door in the North Point Tower. Some other pretty major firms are in the E&Y Tower, and it's plenty breezy there. Does it really make that much difference in wind to move the Justice Center 100 yards closer to the lake, particularly when lots of firms are already in major wind zones? I think this is essentially a non-issue. The legal professionals making the decision are all judges that will drive to the tower and park under it anyway.

 

Baker Hostetler, Squire Patton Boggs, Thompson Hine, Benesch, Hahn Loeser, Frantz Ward, Ulmer & Berne, and Reminger all have their offices within .25 miles to the Justice Center. I'd have to believe each of these firms would do their best to influence the location based upon that fact alone - and most of Cleveland's power broker attorneys practice at one of the above shops. 

2 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

Baker Hostetler, Squire Patton Boggs, Thompson Hine, Benesch, Hahn Loeser, Frantz Ward, Ulmer & Berne, and Reminger all have their offices within .25 miles to the Justice Center. I'd have to believe each of these firms would do their best to influence the location based upon that fact alone - and most of Cleveland's power broker attorneys practice at one of the above shops. 

I can assure you that the lawyers at these firms are attending to matters at the Justice Center a lot more than the previously mentioned "largest firm" in the city.

24 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

Baker Hostetler, Squire Patton Boggs, Thompson Hine, Benesch, Hahn Loeser, Frantz Ward, Ulmer & Berne, and Reminger all have their offices within .25 miles to the Justice Center. I'd have to believe each of these firms would do their best to influence the location based upon that fact alone - and most of Cleveland's power broker attorneys practice at one of the above shops. 

This is a fair point, but the issue is primarily about distance, not wind. As the crow flies (and I have to measure this way because the land bridge doesn't exist yet), the justice center is a little over 300 m from Key tower while FE is a little over 600 m from Key tower. You're turning a 5 minute walk into a 10 minute walk. I've never had a downtown office, so maybe I lack perspective, but do you really think the firms with offices on Public Square would derail a Justice Center near First Energy because it means an extra 5 minutes of walking once a week (or less than once a week)?

The justice center should NOT be on the lakefront. There are better uses for that property

23 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said:

The justice center should NOT be on the lakefront. There are better uses for that property

 

I'm just saying that economics may drive the county to the cheapest yet most accessible properties. The lakefront land is accessible by car (the mode most will use to get there) and is publicly owned. The county could get the land for free and, if the parking is already going to be built for lakefront users, that will also save the county money -- 10s of millions of smackeroos.

 

Accessible sites other than ol' Huntington Park are going to come at a premium and require parking garages dedicated to Justice Center users. Although, if the Justice Center goes to Bedrock's Tower City Riverview site, there are opportunities for shared parking there which could also benefit the conversion of the old SHW HQ into residential.

When has the county ever thought about saving money? 🙂    Building on the lakefront would need to be done in conjunction with the landbridge and shoreway reconstruction, which is going to cost a lot of smackeroos.

 

Edited June 10, 20214 yr by skiwest