June 10, 20214 yr 14 minutes ago, skiwest said: When has the county ever thought about saving money? 🙂 The private/public deal for the HQ building seemed to work out well.
June 10, 20214 yr 2 minutes ago, Cleburger said: The private/public deal for the HQ building seemed to work out well. And I'd be willing to bet that's the first example they bring up in talking to private property owners/developers. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 10, 20214 yr 21 hours ago, KJP said: I consider buildings of more than 500,000 sf to be whales. Cliffs HQ may be close but not quite. Only SHW's HQ, Justice Center and another building will qualify. BTW, this is just a hunch, but I wouldn't be surprised to see the new Justice Center Courthouse be a part of the lakefront plan. It's publicly owned land. Lots of parking for the Justice Center on weekdays and football games on fall/winter weekends/weeknights. It would have light-rail access. There's four skyscrapers proposed. Perhaps the Justice Center could be two of them? It would create a significant amount of foot traffic for retailers and new restaurants too. Am I the only one that picked up on this? Maybe a new thread is required but I'm dying over here!!!
June 10, 20214 yr Its a wind tunnel walking northerly on Ontario in the winter. I doubt attorneys and their staff would walk in the winter towards the lake. That would be a rough trek!
June 10, 20214 yr 3 minutes ago, Chazz Michael Michaels said: Am I the only one that picked up on this? Maybe a new thread is required but I'm dying over here!!! Original nuCLEus?
June 10, 20214 yr 16 minutes ago, Chazz Michael Michaels said: Am I the only one that picked up on this? Maybe a new thread is required but I'm dying over here!!! I'll discuss it in the random Cleveland development thread. 14 minutes ago, dski44 said: Its a wind tunnel walking northerly on Ontario in the winter. I doubt attorneys and their staff would walk in the winter towards the lake. That would be a rough trek! I would hope there would be some subterranean walkway/concourse as part of the land bridge. But maybe I'm being too hopeful. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 10, 20214 yr HOK chosen as ‘criteria architect’ for Cuyahoga County Jail project. https://www.cleveland.com/news/2021/06/hok-chosen-as-criteria-architect-for-cuyahoga-county-jail-project.html
June 10, 20214 yr ^ I was surprised to see that HOK would be interested in a job that’s going to require nothing much more than a functional, bland box-fortress. Then I remembered their Kellogg HQ in Battle Creek MI. My hovercraft is full of eels
June 10, 20214 yr 1 hour ago, roman totale XVII said: ^ I was surprised to see that HOK would be interested in a job that’s going to require nothing much more than a functional, bland box-fortress. Then I remembered their Kellogg HQ in Battle Creek MI. Not necessarily. Look at the comps that the county is looking at. This is from the March presentation... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 10, 20214 yr 4 hours ago, KJP said: Not necessarily. Look at the comps that the county is looking at. This is from the March presentation... "Some Examples of What an Urban Jail Can Look Like" -- all but the last look very sub-urban with a sea of parking in front.
June 11, 20214 yr 2 hours ago, Foraker said: "Some Examples of What an Urban Jail Can Look Like" -- all but the last look very sub-urban with a sea of parking in front. It’s a jail. I don’t think it’s supposed to engage with the sidewalk lol 🤷♂️
June 11, 20214 yr 11 hours ago, inlovewithCLE said: It’s a jail. I don’t think it’s supposed to engage with the sidewalk lol 🤷♂️ No doubt. 😁 No one wants to live next to a fortress, yet there are advantages to having a jail in our urban community -- it's easier for relatives to visit, legal services are more readily available, ready availability for job training and health services, possibility of transit reducing the need for parking, and proximity to the courts. So we both want a jail in the city and we don't want it to be a huge negative presence in the neighborhood. We should encourage creative solutions to making our urban areas great places to live. I don't really want to go hang out in front of a jail, but when I get off the rapid and walk up to the jail to visit Uncle Joe I don't want to walk through a parking lot to get there. And more importantly, I don't want anyone to think that suburban must-have-a-car-to-get-there, unfriendly-to-pedestrian development is exemplary "urban" development -- "nuisance" building or not.
June 11, 20214 yr Motion to ban comic sans from any presentation, ever. Who thinks that's a good stylistic choice. These all look like corporate business parks- I know there's fiscal limitations and specific uses but meh, I hope we end up with something a tad more inspiring (not JJC type stuff, but something).
June 11, 20214 yr 21 hours ago, roman totale XVII said: ^ I was surprised to see that HOK would be interested in a job that’s going to require nothing much more than a functional, bland box-fortress. Then I remembered their Kellogg HQ in Battle Creek MI. To borrow a response: money. It's solid, long term cash flow. The "criteria architect" in a design-build project under the County's code, which copies the Revised Code and Administrative Code, merely prepares conceptual plans and specifications and establishes design/performance requirements that are incorporated into the RFP used to select the design-build firm and it's architect of record and, if optioned, serves as the owner's rep. during the detailed design and construction phases. Regardless of the project's end use, the criteria architect is not afforded much aesthetic responsibility or creative design discretion when developing raw project concepts and contract specifications. By chasing/getting this role, HOK took themselves out of the running to partner with the builder to complete the design/construction.
June 11, 20214 yr Arlington, Virginia's Courthouse and Jail are a good example of how secure buildings can meet the street and fit into a diverse, walkable neighborhood. https://goo.gl/maps/NuFTx7uRVJiuX1kr7
June 17, 20213 yr The Cleveland Metropolitan Bar Association keeps a page mostly up to date about news on the Justice Center project. This may have been mentioned many pages back, so maybe reminding people. Also, 90.3FM story from 6/10/21: New Cuyahoga County Jail Moves Ahead, Slowly, With Hiring Of Design Firm In case anyone missed it.
June 30, 20213 yr ** Cleveland.com Subscriber Exclusive ** Cuyahoga County Council gets first look at jail plans, committee OKs hiring architect Courtney Astolfi - Cleveland.com - June 20, 2021 "During Cuyahoga County Council’s first comprehensive hearing about plans for a new jail on Tuesday, a Council committee approved an $8 million contract for an architect to begin preliminary designs. If approved by the full Council, the hiring of engineering firm HOK would mark the county’s first major step toward replacing the two aging jail towers housed in the 1976-built Justice Center complex in downtown Cleveland. ... Within the first year of HOK’s work, the firm would get familiarized with existing plans, draw up various designs, and help the county determine a maximum price as part of the process of hiring a builder. ... No site has been picked, but the steering committee has been exploring options for a location. ... Appelbaum said HOK could likely complete its first six months of work without a chosen site."
June 30, 20213 yr Does the article mention the locations under consideration by the steering committee? Also, does the article make any mention about a new courts tower?
June 30, 20213 yr FWIW HOK was the architect behind two near by large county jails. Both are on former industrial sites around ~3 miles outside of their downtowns. The Wayne County Jail Complex in Detroit: And the Indianapolis-Marion County Couuminty Justice Center (which also included court facilities on the same campus as the jail unlike Wayne and Cuyahoga):
June 30, 20213 yr 24 minutes ago, Sapper Daddy said: Does the article mention the locations under consideration by the steering committee? No mention of any specific jail locations. 24 minutes ago, Sapper Daddy said: Also, does the article make any mention about a new courts tower? Nothing outside of "Those questions are still unanswered because the steering committee is considering whether to renovate the courts at their current location or find a new site nearby."
June 30, 20213 yr 1 hour ago, NorthShore647 said: No mention of any specific jail locations. They are looking to build a one or two story jail facility. So is seems that the number of possible locations would be limited.
July 7, 20213 yr Cuyahoga County Council approves $8 million contract for jail architect, finally talks jail financing Courtney Astolfi - Cleveland.com - July 6, 2021 "Cuyahoga County Council, in a nine-to-one vote on Tuesday, approved an $8 million deal with an engineering firm to begin drawing up plans for a new jail. ... Until Tuesday, Council members had largely avoided the topic of jail financing during public meetings. Councilman Michael Gallagher on Tuesday acknowledged the county is putting “the cart before the horse a bit” in moving forward on jail plans before determining how the county will pay for a new facility. But he said “time” and “morality” are not on the county’s side."
July 7, 20213 yr The council people who voted against the design contract have a good point. How will this be paid for? I understand conditions are deplorable in the jail now, but framing the expediency of designing a new jail as a life or death situation is a little disingenuous. For more immediate results and less immediate money they could conduct new training and modify existing facilities to make them safer for the most at risk inmates of that were really the main concern. A new facility is definitely needed, and how to pay for it should be a top priority, not hush-hush like they've been carrying on. Edited July 7, 20213 yr by Mov2Ohio
July 7, 20213 yr 4 hours ago, Mov2Ohio said: The council people who voted against the design contract have a good point. How will this be paid for? I understand conditions are deplorable in the jail now, but framing the expediency of designing a new jail as a life or death situation is a little disingenuous. For more immediate results and less immediate money they could conduct new training and modify existing facilities to make them safer for the most at risk inmates of that were really the main concern. A new facility is definitely needed, and how to pay for it should be a top priority, not hush-hush like they've been carrying on. There is no modifying that jail. The conditions were so bad that even the feds said it was bad. They NEED a new jail. But they do need to specify how it will be paid for.
July 7, 20213 yr 23 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said: There is no modifying that jail. The conditions were so bad that even the feds said it was bad. They NEED a new jail. But they do need to specify how it will be paid for. Definitely need a new jail, like I said. But they're framing this as if they can't make temporary measures to accommodate the at risk/drug addicted jail population in the mean time. They literally just turned part of the jail into office space last Summer using Federal Covid money. They can do that, they can make temp provisions to handle the immediate crisis, if they really wanted to.
July 7, 20213 yr Talk about the jail is important but is there any insight on the tower? If memory serves me correctly, estimates for the courthouse tower were anywhere from 800k-1.0M sq. ft. That puts the possible tower in the neighborhood of the Eagleton Federal Courthouse in St. Louis. SHW, possibly a Nucleus tower and a large courthouse tower would create an amazing new skyline. Here is hoping the development committee doesn't go with a mid-rise courthouse tower.
July 7, 20213 yr What is the county (and possibly the city) doing with its CARES Act stimulus dollars? "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
July 7, 20213 yr 6 minutes ago, KJP said: What is the county (and possibly the city) doing with its CARES Act stimulus dollars? I don’t think any decisions have been made, but a new eco-friendly courthouse probably qualifies for the money.
September 22, 20213 yr Cuyahoga County Executive Armond Budish is proposing an "indefinite" expansion of the 0.25% sales tax passed in 2007 to pay for the convention center, which expires in 2027, to pay for a new $500+ million jail and probably whatever is done with the rest of the Justice Center. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 22, 20213 yr 2 hours ago, KJP said: Cuyahoga County Executive Armond Budish is proposing an "indefinite" expansion of the 0.25% sales tax passed in 2007 to pay for the convention center, which expires in 2027, to pay for a new $500+ million jail and probably whatever is done with the rest of the Justice Center. I’m ok with extending the sales tax to pay for a new JC but can’t figure how, if any due diligence is done, there isn’t a “definite” timeframe for the expansion of the tax.
September 22, 20213 yr There is no such thing as a temporary tax. They will always find a reason to extend it.
December 10, 20213 yr A large property near you may be ripe for a jail By Ken Prendergast / December 10, 2021 It’s definitely an unusual move. Typically, when a government agency needs a property for a new facility, it does an alternatives analysis of all the properties that meet its criteria. It then ranks them according to that criteria and then pursues acquisition of their preferred property or properties. If that doesn’t work out, the agency pursues its second favorite site. And so on. MORE: https://neo-trans.blog/2021/12/10/a-large-property-near-you-may-be-ripe-for-a-jail/ "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
December 10, 20213 yr 34 minutes ago, KJP said: A large property near you may be ripe for a jail By Ken Prendergast / December 10, 2021 It’s definitely an unusual move. Typically, when a government agency needs a property for a new facility, it does an alternatives analysis of all the properties that meet its criteria. It then ranks them according to that criteria and then pursues acquisition of their preferred property or properties. If that doesn’t work out, the agency pursues its second favorite site. And so on. MORE: https://neo-trans.blog/2021/12/10/a-large-property-near-you-may-be-ripe-for-a-jail/ Where does Bobby George live? My hovercraft is full of eels
December 10, 20213 yr 43 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said: No underground level? Nothing like that has been discussed that I'm aware of. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
December 10, 20213 yr I was curious to get some perspective on how much space 30-40 acres is, so I looked around the auditors website. Tri-C's campus on E. 30th is close to 28 acres. So that's a pretty big site they are looking for.
December 10, 20213 yr 1 hour ago, Dino said: I was curious to get some perspective on how much space 30-40 acres is, so I looked around the auditors website. Tri-C's campus on E. 30th is close to 28 acres. So that's a pretty big site they are looking for. Perhaps they should consider an additional level to reduce the acreage needed. Edited December 10, 20213 yr by LibertyBlvd
December 11, 20213 yr 2 hours ago, Dino said: I was curious to get some perspective on how much space 30-40 acres is, so I looked around the auditors website. Tri-C's campus on E. 30th is close to 28 acres. So that's a pretty big site they are looking for. I made some graphics for the article showing some sites that were big enough to accommodate the jail but decided against using them. I'll post a few here when I get home shortly. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
December 11, 20213 yr What to do regarding the Justice Center has me a little conflicted. I usually have definite opinions on design/development (you all can determine whether l'm spot on or just another babbling idiot). To that end, on one hand it seems to make sense logistically to have the Courts, Police Hq. and jail in one central location as we have now. But the jail is an obsolete structure and fails to meet 84 state standards. Plus, is it a good look to have the primary jail in the heart of downtown? Where do other large cities have their main jail? It needs space and needs replaced. So convienence be damned, the jail has to move away from the Courts. While l'm happy to see the Opportunity Corridor get a high profile institution which may help kickstart much needed development l don't want to see the Police Hq leave downtown. That's a lot of activity leaving and we need all the life we can get so that's a disappointment l think. Hopefully we still get a Courts tower of some magnitude. That's assuming we abandon the Justice Center tower. Another question is if we tear down the jail, move the Police Hq and build a new Courts tower is the Justice Center tower reusable? Probably not but if we tear everything down we lose a highrise and end up with another massive parking lot for god knows how many years. Alot of questions. I hope we find the right answers.
December 11, 20213 yr 1 hour ago, cadmen said: What to do regarding the Justice Center has me a little conflicted. I usually have definite opinions on design/development (you all can determine whether l'm spot on or just another babbling idiot). To that end, on one hand it seems to make sense logistically to have the Courts, Police Hq. and jail in one central location as we have now. But the jail is an obsolete structure and fails to meet 84 state standards. Plus, is it a good look to have the primary jail in the heart of downtown? Where do other large cities have their main jail? It needs space and needs replaced. So convienence be damned, the jail has to move away from the Courts. While l'm happy to see the Opportunity Corridor get a high profile institution which may help kickstart much needed development l don't want to see the Police Hq leave downtown. That's a lot of activity leaving and we need all the life we can get so that's a disappointment l think. Hopefully we still get a Courts tower of some magnitude. That's assuming we abandon the Justice Center tower. Another question is if we tear down the jail, move the Police Hq and build a new Courts tower is the Justice Center tower reusable? Probably not but if we tear everything down we lose a highrise and end up with another massive parking lot for god knows how many years. Alot of questions. I hope we find the right answers. I would think a perfect location would be where the jail now stands. Gut the original tower; it needs to happen anyhow for asbestos abatement, and repurpose it as office space. I think it’d be quite attractive for a lot of smaller firms being directly next to the new courthouse tower. JMO Edited December 11, 20213 yr by marty15
December 13, 20213 yr After admiring the pics uploaded by @MayDay in the Random Visualizations thread, I was wondering if that site next to the Stokes Courthouse Tower could be a location for the new Justice Center. What’s the status/availability of that parcel and could it be a viable location?
December 13, 20213 yr 9 minutes ago, CleveFan said: After admiring the pics uploaded by @MayDay in the Random Visualizations thread, I was wondering if that site next to the Stokes Courthouse Tower could be a location for the new Justice Center. What’s the status/availability of that parcel and could it be a viable location? For a new courts tower? That would be amazing!!!
December 14, 20213 yr On 12/11/2021 at 2:34 PM, marty15 said: I would think a perfect location would be where the jail now stands. Gut the original tower; it needs to happen anyhow for asbestos abatement, and repurpose it as office space. I think it’d be quite attractive for a lot of smaller firms being directly next to the new courthouse tower. JMO Makes sense since they already own the property. However, there would be demolition costs. But they wouldn't be able to get started until a new jail is completed, and that is several years away.
December 14, 20213 yr 5 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said: Makes sense since they already own the property. However, there would be demolition costs. But they wouldn't be able to get started until a new jail is completed, and that is several years away. Except the savings could be wiped out from inflation in waiting a couple of years before construction could begin. Escalation costs in just a couple of years can add millions to the cost of a $300 million to $400 million project. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
December 15, 20213 yr Here is an article on the search for a new jail location. https://www.cleveland.com/news/2021/12/in-search-for-new-jail-location-cuyahoga-county-allowing-property-owners-to-apply-for-consideration.html
December 15, 20213 yr Maybe this was stated already, but, shouldn't they find available property and draw up the conceptual building accordingly rather than draw up the building concept and then hope they find land that will fit the building?
December 15, 20213 yr 42 minutes ago, cfdwarrior said: Maybe this was stated already, but, shouldn't they find available property and draw up the conceptual building accordingly rather than draw up the building concept and then hope they find land that will fit the building? That's what I said in my article last week. Very curious as to how they're doing this. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
December 16, 20213 yr Sounds like some backroom handshakes have already been made, but they have to pretend and go through the process and make it look good.
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