1 hour ago, originaljbw said:

Sounds like some backroom handshakes have already been made, but they have to pretend and go through the process and make it look good. 

This is VERY plausible, but you still never know what will turn up. Sometimes when RFPs are done basically just for show, you will get a dark horse proposal that looks way better than the one the city was planning on.

On 12/15/2021 at 10:13 AM, cfdwarrior said:

Maybe this was stated already, but, shouldn't they find available property and draw up the conceptual building accordingly rather than draw up the building concept and then hope they find land that will fit the building? 

 

The approach being taken seems logical to me.  I'm sure there are some codes and standards that must be observed in terms of square footage needs per inmate, projected inmate population, common areas, staff offices, circulation and space for supporting infrastructure.  These variables would seem to drive an overall square footage need.  Functional characteristics of the building type would likely determine the efficiency drivers of multiple levels.  Taken together, these determine the optimal building footprint which in turn determines the amount of land required.

Friend who works for county in has in various departments suggested the jail may go in EC. Frustrating but maybe they are going to say Windermere is the transit connection?

Some info on new jail:

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2022/01/cuyahoga-county-takes-another-step-toward-building-new-jail.html

^ The county has not yet said how it will fund the construction, but outgoing Executive Armond Budish previously proposed extending a quarter-percent sales tax that is set to expire in 2027 to pay for it.

 

The next steps would be to select a location for the new jail by March and finish the schematic design by May 1, Appelbaum said.

$10 says the jail will be built where the shipping container yard on Broadway/ Transport Road is located. Then the container yard gets moved the Cuyahoga Valley Industrial Center next to I-77. Any other guesses?

My money's on Public Square. It's centrally located and all. Plus we won't have to tear down any buildings unless you count Rebol.

6 minutes ago, KJP said:

$10 says the jail will be built where the shipping container yard on Broadway/ Transport Road is located. Then the container yard gets moved the Cuyahoga Valley Industrial Center next to I-77. Any other guesses?

There are a lot of environmental issues with that land along Transport Road.  It was once the site of John D. Rockefeller's Standard Oil Refinery.  But I'm not willing to bet against you!

1 minute ago, scb0525 said:

There are a lot of environmental issues with that land along Transport Road.  It was once the site of John D. Rockefeller's Standard Oil Refinery.  But I'm not willing to bet against you!

Good incentive for criminals to stay out of jail.

8 hours ago, KJP said:

$10 says the jail will be built where the shipping container yard on Broadway/ Transport Road is located. Then the container yard gets moved the Cuyahoga Valley Industrial Center next to I-77. Any other guesses?

 

That's been my pick for a while.  I can't think of a better spot in the city for a prison.

19 hours ago, scb0525 said:

There are a lot of environmental issues with that land along Transport Road.  It was once the site of John D. Rockefeller's Standard Oil Refinery.  But I'm not willing to bet against you!

 

Put some layers of fill dirt atop it to cover the old refinery soil and step the land up to the elevated Broadway to put the main entrance and visitors center/administration building there. On the other side of Broadway, add a couple of restaurants and a nice hardware store where they sell metal saws and files, and now you've actually got ridership generators for the new East 34/Campus Rapid station!

Sounds like a smaller version is the option to refurbishing...  https://www.cleveland.com/news/2022/02/committee-considering-billion-dollar-plans-to-rebuild-renovate-antiquated-justice-center.html

 

Edited February 10, 20223 yr by cfdwarrior

55 minutes ago, cfdwarrior said:

Sounds like a smaller version is the option to refurbishing...  https://www.cleveland.com/news/2022/02/committee-considering-billion-dollar-plans-to-rebuild-renovate-antiquated-justice-center.html

 

Very strange. I do not believe there is any palatable location of 15-20 acres available.

At face value, the construction for that project is estimated to cost about $430 million, Cupples said. However, after factoring in delays, accommodations for renovations while the building remains occupied, and years of “escalation” costs as the jail is being built, he says the project actually tops out at $1.2 billion.

 

Nice fuzzy math there.

SHW is building its new 650 foot, 1 million+ Sq ft. HQ tower for $300 million or so, but a smaller new justice center would cost over $1 billion? Wtf

Edited February 10, 20223 yr by marty15

That's a very good point there. Why is it that business seems able to build cheaper while government can't? Maybe it's because their using their own money while government is using ours. 

5 minutes ago, cadmen said:

That's a very good point there. Why is it that business seems able to build cheaper while government can't? Maybe it's because their using their own money while government is using ours. 

 

Government is also required to follow many more mandates that the private sector is not.

Plus a jail and court compound is probably much more complex to design. There need to be secure areas that require more robust construction than a simple office building. More sophisticated surveillance systems, higher capacity plumbing, facilities for laundry, cooking, etc.

 

I don't work in jail construction, so I don't know what a reasonable amount for that should be. But I could see it easily costing at least twice as much as SHW's headquarters despite being a shorter building.

9 minutes ago, OliverHazardPerry said:

Plus a jail and court compound is probably much more complex to design. There need to be secure areas that require more robust construction than a simple office building. More sophisticated surveillance systems, higher capacity plumbing, facilities for laundry, cooking, etc.

 

I don't work in jail construction, so I don't know what a reasonable amount for that should be. But I could see it easily costing at least twice as much as SHW's headquarters despite being a shorter building.

The jail is a separate $500 million. SHW will have a VERY secure HQ. Which also includes a 900 space garage and the PS building.  SHW HQ will hold over 3000 people. Plumbing will be covered.  They’ll also have the highest level of surveillance systems that exist. There’s no extra amenities that justify a 3x price tag. 

Edited February 10, 20223 yr by marty15

Oh wow, I completely missed that part of the article where the jail will be separate. Ok yeah, $1 billion sounds really high just for the Justice Center portion.

 

Still doubt that a corporate headquarters is going to be more secure than a criminal justice complex. Unless SHW wants to come off as being a jail for its workers lol

Edited February 10, 20223 yr by OliverHazardPerry

Asking judges to double up in order to save tax payers $82 million doesn’t sound like an unreasonable request.

3 minutes ago, Sapper Daddy said:

Asking judges to double up in order to save tax payers $82 million doesn’t sound like an unreasonable request.

Have you ever met a judge? 😉

1 hour ago, marty15 said:

SHW is building its new 650 foot, 1 million+ Sq ft. HQ tower for $300 million or so, but a smaller new justice center would cost over $1 billion? Wtf

You are comparing apples and oranges as far as building types are concerned. 

10 minutes ago, Klingaling87 said:

You are comparing apples and oranges as far as building types are concerned. 

A building is a building. They’re constructed the same way. Yes, what goes inside is different, but 3x the cost? SHW HQ will have high end finishes and wired with all the latest technology. This isn’t a call center. 

Edited February 10, 20223 yr by marty15

I've been on some tours of the insides of the courts tower lately. It's definitely not like other standard office buildings. There is alot of physical security in the guts of the building for transporting and detaining prisoners. It's also in deplorable condition, as we all know. Add in all the costs for that, and I can see where the extra costs come in. We should be comparing the cost with other recent courts towers than standard office buildings.

1 hour ago, marty15 said:

A building is a building. They’re constructed the same way. Yes, what goes inside is different, but 3x the cost? SHW HQ will have high end finishes and wired with all the latest technology. This isn’t a call center. 

A building is most definitely not just a building. Please explain to me how they are constructed the same way?I I would assume a courthouse has longer structural spans to accommodate large courtrooms. Longer structural spans mean bigger impact to web depth and/or trusses, further impacting column size and foundations. Large courtrooms mean higher floor-to-floor height, which means means more exterior wall. I could go on and on… i would expect something like SHW to be in the $300/SF-$350/SF range, whereas an urban courthouse I would expect to be in the mid $500/SF upwards of $700/SF (construction costs, not total project). Not triple the cost but being double is not out of the realm of possibility. 

I’ll remind forumers that one of the best things we enjoy on this forum is the engagement and participation of quite a few people who are actively involved in construction, development, real estate, etc. I’m talking well beyond entry level or interns.

 

Not that we don’t appreciate those of us in the armchairs and we welcome healthy and respectful discourse. But when those who “know the things” tell us what they know … ?

1 hour ago, Klingaling87 said:

A building is most definitely not just a building. Please explain to me how they are constructed the same way?I I would assume a courthouse has longer structural spans to accommodate large courtrooms. Longer structural spans mean bigger impact to web depth and/or trusses, further impacting column size and foundations. Large courtrooms mean higher floor-to-floor height, which means means more exterior wall. I could go on and on… i would expect something like SHW to be in the $300/SF-$350/SF range, whereas an urban courthouse I would expect to be in the mid $500/SF upwards of $700/SF (construction costs, not total project). Not triple the cost but being double is not out of the realm of possibility. 

What I meant is the methods are the same. And I can’t think of anything contained in a courthouse tower that would 3x the cost. It’s most certain that SHW HQ will contain conference and meeting rooms to the scale and size of most court rooms.

 

Broward County Florida recently built a 20 story, 715000/sf courthouse tower for $200 million. About $275/sq. Maybe we should talk to those people so they can build us 5 towers for the cost of Cuyahoga County’s consultant estimates.

 

This building was $200 million. What more do we want to add for the extra $800 million?

 

Broward County is almost 2x Cuyahoga in population also.

Edited February 11, 20223 yr by marty15

It's not like comparing apples and oranges. They are different. Public and private construction do have some overlying requirements. And government buildings usually have to meet requirements that private ones do not. That can add up quickly. But triple the cost? I don't think so.  So like most discussions each side has their own relevant (and correct) points.

 

Any one who has read articles about massive cost overruns with government contracts knows that waste is a major component. We don't like it but it comes with the territory. I think it's fair to say human nature play's a roll. You're likely to pay more attention to how you spend your money than how you spend someone else's 

There is a such thing as bullet-proof drywall, I've heard some carpenters complain about how heavy it is. They also get pretty expensive. I can see a new-build government building utilizing such a thing, and that could drive up costs maybe?

Edit: Also fireproof, as opposed to a 5/8" drywall panel that's just fire rated for 20-30 minutes I think.

https://covenantsecurityequipment.com/collections/wall-panels?gclid=Cj0KCQiAjJOQBhCkARIsAEKMtO2kG3k1sLTvW1tbw3Auni9L5fkOzpdd6Q8N7zzzbXIH8unk04yneTQaAsIuEALw_wcB

 

Edited February 11, 20223 yr by ArtDecoSquirrel

1 hour ago, marty15 said:

What I meant is the methods are the same. And I can’t think of anything contained in a courthouse tower that would 3x the cost. It’s most certain that SHW HQ will contain conference and meeting rooms to the scale and size of most court rooms.

 

Broward County Florida recently built a 20 story, 715000/sf courthouse tower for $200 million. About $275/sq. Maybe we should talk to those people so they can build us 5 towers for the cost of Cuyahoga County’s consultant estimates.

 

This building was $200 million. What more do we want to add for the extra $800 million?

 

Broward County is almost 2x Cuyahoga in population also.

 

What was included in their courthouse? Do they have a housing court with a massive backlog of foreclosures that will take years if not decades to sort out? How is Florida's court system structured? Do they have the same number of state-mandated court services and programs including for the protection of woman and children? How is their city and county courts arranged? Do they have appellate courts in their county system? Do they have diversion programs? Do they have prosecutors and public defenders offices included in the same building? Do they design their probate and domestic relations courts the same way? Cities, counties and states all do things differently with regards to their court systems and practices.

 

To accommodate all of the courthouse-type programs and services Cuyahoga County and the City of Cleveland have and want to put under the same roof will require a building of nearly 1 million square feet.

 

A better comparison is the Franklin County Courthouse which is a fairly recent project and it's in the same state. But it's not a one-to-one comparison because the city and county are in separate buildings and, even so, Franklin County in 2011 put only their Court of Common Pleas into a new $105 million, 325,000 square feet building, or $323/SF a decade ago. Apply that to a 1 million square foot building is $323 million. A $323 million project in 2011 would cost $412million today (per the BLS inflation calculator). And this project isn't being built today. It's being built in the future. If it's built five years from now, we're looking at a nearly $460 million project. If it's built eight years from now, it's a $500 million project. At this conceptual stage, it's common to add a contingency. In the railroad biz, they add a 30 percent contingency at this stage of design. I would assume something similar for a major public sector project. That brings it up to $650 million.

 

If they told me a new justice center would cost $650 million, I would not be surprised. I am very surprised at $1 billion, however.

5 hours ago, Sapper Daddy said:

Asking judges to double up in order to save tax payers $82 million doesn’t sound like an unreasonable request.

Actually this is a really bad idea. It's not just about judges. It's about criminal defendants and civil litigants who have to have trials scheduled. Scheduling is problematic enough already without having to coordinate TWO judges' schedules.

 

FWIW, the federal courthouse has two judges to a courtroom, but the federal and state court case loads are drastically different.

1 hour ago, KJP said:

 

What was included in their courthouse? Do they have a housing court with a massive backlog of foreclosures that will take years if not decades to sort out? How is Florida's court system structured? Do they have the same number of state-mandated court services and programs including for the protection of woman and children? How is their city and county courts arranged? Do they have appellate courts in their county system? Do they have diversion programs? Do they have prosecutors and public defenders offices included in the same building? Do they design their probate and domestic relations courts the same way? Cities, counties and states all do things differently with regards to their court systems and practices.

 

To accommodate all of the courthouse-type programs and services Cuyahoga County and the City of Cleveland have and want to put under the same roof will require a building of nearly 1 million square feet.

 

A better comparison is the Franklin County Courthouse which is a fairly recent project and it's in the same state. But it's not a one-to-one comparison because the city and county are in separate buildings and, even so, Franklin County in 2011 put only their Court of Common Pleas into a new $105 million, 325,000 square feet building, or $323/SF a decade ago. Apply that to a 1 million square foot building is $323 million. A $323 million project in 2011 would cost $412million today (per the BLS inflation calculator). And this project isn't being built today. It's being built in the future. If it's built five years from now, we're looking at a nearly $460 million project. If it's built eight years from now, it's a $500 million project. At this conceptual stage, it's common to add a contingency. In the railroad biz, they add a 30 percent contingency at this stage of design. I would assume something similar for a major public sector project. That brings it up to $650 million.

 

If they told me a new justice center would cost $650 million, I would not be surprised. I am very surprised at $1 billion, however.

Not to minimize the situation of county court operations, but I’m sure every county court system in the country has its own set of issues and we’re not the worst case scenario like you make it sound, or maybe we are!

Edited February 11, 20223 yr by marty15

I didn't mean make us sound like a worse-case scenario. Just different. And every project is different, especially between states.

Not a developer but, from a cost perspective, it seems like the two options being considered are the two more expensive options (refurbish an old building to modern standards over a lengthy amount of time or build a mid-rise complex on 15-20 acres).

Is it not less expense to build up rather than out?  Aside from given the development team more options - because they don't have to find the required acreage - wouldn't building a tall building also be less expensive?

Once a new jail is built, could they build a new courthouse on the old jail site?  There would be demolition costs, but at least they already own the property.

3 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Once a new jail is built, could they build a new courthouse on the old jail site?  There would be demolition costs, but at least they already own the property.

And if they need extra square footage they could also use the old police headquarters and that useless wind swept plaza.  Then tear down the old courthouse tower and offer it for development.

46 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Once a new jail is built, could they build a new courthouse on the old jail site?  There would be demolition costs, but at least they already own the property.

 

Certainly. Except every year they wait, it adds millions, if not tens of millions of dollars to the project's cost. It would make more sense to build ASAP. To me, the smart move is to have a private-sector builder construct the new Justice Center and then do a lease-to-purchase deal like what Geis did for the county administration building. Since the county wants to reduce its property acquisition costs, this might be the more cost-effective way to go.

15-20 acres pretty much singles out The Pit, or maybe the parking lot which boarders the Main Ave. bridge fits that size as well.  Either site would be close to the existing law firms in the area.  

 

As for it potentially being a midrise, I think we could've expected that.  I don't know if the current Justice Center could be refurbished as anything other than office and even then, it would take substantial investment to bring it up to par.  If it's demolished, even with its location, it may be years before we see anything substantial on the site.  

 

I've lived here long enough to not expect an announcement and then see shovels in the ground overnight or within 3 to 40 years for any site downtown, no matter what the location.  I would personally much rather see the jail and old police station torn down with the new Justice Center built in it's place.  If the entire block is demolished, it could be the beginning of the New Parking Lot District.

 

If they’re gonna build new, behind Tower City seems the most ideal. Especially directly connected to all the public transit and existing parking. 

I’ve never been a fan of the look of the Justice Center (probably like many) but whatever happens with the replacement, I’d hate to see it demolished.  It is certainly a great example of brutalism and of a particular era that won’t return. 
 

Every larger city has infill buildings that, although,  not singularly beautiful , contribute greatly to the  city’s density and the skyline.  The JC certainly would leave a gaping hole if it was just demolished, as one of the 10 tallest in Cleveland. 
 

I’d also like to think that we don’t have to just tear down buildings of that size 50 years after construction because they’re impossible to repurpose.  I suspect the JC will, in fact, be difficult and pricey to repurpose - but not impossible.  There may be an innovative investor/developer out there that could create a stunning transformation of the building and for less than a new build.  At least I hope so.  
 

As for the the replacement, for the kind of money they’re talking about, I hope we wind up with a new tower and not a mid rise. 
 

I get that it’s all about the budget, but the kinds of corner-cuts and sacrifices we’ve been hearing about make me concerned that we’ll just have a new subpar facility in the short term future.  Just do it right - build a facility the city can be proud of where the difficult process of justice can be  administered in a healthy and best-practice environment.  Cleveland is moving ahead on so many fronts - like it has to in a new century - I hope our leadership doesn’t allow this to become a step back. 

3 hours ago, CleveFan said:

contribute greatly to the  city’s density and the skyline.  

 

 

This may be true if you're looking at downtown from afar, but standing next to that big dumb grass moat it's pretty hard to say with a straight face that the architecture is contributing the city's density in an especially useful way, IMHO.

 

All to say, I'd be fine if they kept the tower, as long as the base is expanded and the site plan is transformed. 

Edited February 11, 20223 yr by StapHanger

3 hours ago, CleveFan said:

but whatever happens with the replacement, I’d hate to see it demolished.  It is certainly a great example of brutalism and of a particular era that won’t return. 

I would hate to see the building demolished too.  Not only would it be very wasteful, there's no guarantee it would be replaced with something as dense or tall, and if it is, who knows how long that would take?  And, because it is a great example of brutalism, it's eligible for historic tax credits.  (Technically it needs to be 50 years old to be eligible, but that's only in a few years)  That's basically a 45% coupon off the costs to renovate it.  The value of that would be immense to a developer looking to flip the building.  So, even though I don't love this building, there is significant value in keeping it.  Demolishing it would be a huge waste.

I propose a trade.  They trade the Justice Center for Bedrock's Tower City land on the riverfront.  Or better yet, have them develop it for them just like the County HQ was done.  The new justice center would be centrally located, right on public transit, next to a federal courthouse, still near all the law offices, etc.  Canal Road would be a discreet way of transporting people to and from the new jail.  Having something of some scale on that site would be a win as far as the density and skyline goes.  Then Bedrock can flip the existing Justice Center.  They have the money and know how to redevelop the existing justice center into office and/or residential.  They know how to use the historic tax credits too.  I'm not sure if it would necessarily be an even swap, but there's a deal in there somewhere that makes a lot of sense.

Was this design and location ever seriously considered?  I absolutely love this design

What would the existing property be worth on the open market...with and without the current structures?

Demoing the JC would basically guarantee a parking crater for a decade or two. The saddest part of that is half of the Warehouse District was demolished for parking for the JC. 

We’d be playing whack a mole parking craters now that SHW is devouring those lots.

Existing buildings have a much better chance than vacant land downtown. As we’ve seen repeatedly. Vacant lots will never get historic tax credits, or need to build parking minimums. 

It's hard to wrap my brain around what to do. It's like every question and possible answer is on steroids.

 

Where to start? The present JC is brutal to look at and brutalist in style so tear it down. But we don't want to lose a downtown high rise so keep it and refurbish then. But at what cost and what would it look like? Wouldn't it be like putting lipstick on a pig? So tear it down and build somewhere else but does it have to be a low rise complex? Don't want that. And besides where would it go and at what cost? 1.2 billion...are you kidding me! And if we do build new on a different lot and tear down the old JC we know we will create another HUGE hole (parking lot) close to more empty space in the form of the Mall and Public Square. Regardless of your feelings about those spaces that is too much open area downtown. So round and round we go. And all of these conflicting ideas will take place over a decade or so. 

 

By the time it's over l think everyone will have a giant headache. 

^ Tearing it down because it’s Brutalist is a bit, er, brutal. I’m a fan of the style in general and think the JC is quite handsome close up, but does lose that very quickly as you move away from it. All that said, I think it’s a fine addition to the overall city-scape and I’d want to keep it there, over demoing it. 

If it is eventually tore down it will not, or at least should not, be because of its architectural style, love it or not.  The tipping point will be the cost to renovate, whether by the county, keeping it a courthouse, or a private development re-imagining it.  We have been told there is asbestos, all the mechanicals are shot, windows probably need to be replaced, floor lay outs re-imagined and I am sure the expansive exterior stone needs lots of work after all these years.  It will run into the hundreds of millions.  Throw in the millions it will cost to continue to operate the building during renovations if it stays a courthouse.  My guess is if it is renovated it will be by public entities,  I don't think a private developer in Cleveland would touch it with a ten foot pole given the costs as well as the fact that it is probably a difficult building to re-purpose, especially into apartments.