April 23, 20223 yr 36 minutes ago, marty15 said: Speaking of electric, put the courthouse behind Tower City and retro fit a few old Red Line cars into jail cars. Direct link on the Red Line. I mentioned this somewhere way up thread and it was greeted with mostly negative responses. I still think this is a great way to pump money into the rail system--put the jail out on the opportunity corridor with an indoor jail siding off the red line. Use dedicated cars for prisoners and a few more RTA operators get to keep their jobs.
April 24, 20223 yr On 4/23/2022 at 2:02 PM, Cleburger said: I mentioned this somewhere way up thread and it was greeted with mostly negative responses. I still think this is a great way to pump money into the rail system--put the jail out on the opportunity corridor with an indoor jail siding off the red line. Use dedicated cars for prisoners and a few more RTA operators get to keep their jobs. The reason why it was greeted with a negative response is that it is likely that news that "The Red Line is being used to transport prisoners" is likely to get around, without the caveat that it's special cars. Great way to drive away riders, imo.
April 25, 20223 yr 8 hours ago, X said: The reason why it was greeted with a negative response is that it is likely that news that "The Red Line is being used to transport prisoners" is likely to get around, without the caveat that it's special cars. Great way to drive away riders, imo. I don't see this being spread around by anyone other than people in the burbs that already aren't riders and think that the Red Line is only used by criminals currently....
April 27, 20223 yr I'm not sure why widespread prisoner transport is such a big component when elsewhere you have solutions like this one: Modern justice: Summit County invests in efficient ways to connect inmates with courts March 18, 2022 | Akron Beacon Journal - by Stephanie Warsmith https://www.beaconjournal.com/story/news/2022/03/18/summit-county-upgrades-technology-courts-and-jail/9376998002/ Quote Before the pandemic, Summit County inmates who needed to appear before a judge were shackled together early in the morning and taken to the courthouse. Quote Under a new method that will soon begin, this process will be cut down to about 15 minutes, with the inmate never leaving the jail. That's thanks to an $11 million technology upgrade to Summit County's criminal justice system – mostly funded through federal COVID grants — that will allow for high-quality videoconferencing between the jail and courts. Edited April 27, 20223 yr by infrafreak corrected link
April 28, 20223 yr 11 hours ago, infrafreak said: I'm not sure why widespread prisoner transport is such a big component when elsewhere you have solutions like this one: Modern justice: Summit County invests in efficient ways to connect inmates with courts March 18, 2022 | Akron Beacon Journal - by Stephanie Warsmith https://www.beaconjournal.com/story/news/2022/03/18/summit-county-upgrades-technology-courts-and-jail/9376998002/ This is already a thing. Every court case I've appeared in for the last two years at the Justice Center where a defendant was still in jail was done via zoom from the jail. Prisoner transport is no longer an issue. Transport would really only be needed to transport to Metro for medical issues. Edited April 28, 20223 yr by KFM44107
May 28, 20223 yr https://www.cleveland.com/news/2022/05/officials-discuss-moving-shipping-container-facility-to-slavic-village-to-free-up-transport-road-site-for-new-cuyahoga-county-jail.html
May 30, 20223 yr Good. Clustering is the key to a strong city. We're lucky compared to a lot of cities actually. Most of our municipal assets are all in or close to Downtown. Courts, city/county facilities, stadiums/arenas, museums, main educational establishments, theaters, media outlets, transport hubs, major corporations and business entities, the center of our nightlife. Its why I hate moving the Police HQ out to the arse end of nowhere. We even have two hospitals virtually on the edge despite University Circle dominating the health scene. Let's keep it that way.
June 11, 20223 yr Anyone have a subscription to dodge reports, might learn something. https://www.construction.com/projects/dr-202100553528-cuyahoga-county-jail-corrections-center
June 11, 20223 yr That $550 million cost figure has been cited repeatedly in multiple articles. My understanding is that whales are determined by square footage (1+ million) not by cost. I used to subscribe to Dodge. Every so often there would be an interesting kernel of information. But it wasn't enough to justify spending $1,000+ per year on a subscription. When the jail construction gets launched, I wouldn't be surprised to see the county issue an RFP for a private developer to build a new courthouse building that the county would lease for 15-20 years and eventually acquire for little or no cash. Similar approaches were taken with the county administration building and, to a lesser extent, the Hilton hotel. This approach requires less up-front money, has shown to guard against cost overruns (produced surpluses, actually) and spreads the cost over many years like a bond issue but without the interest and bond counsel expenses of a bond issue. The question is common would there be developers interested in responding to an RFP to construct and briefly own such a facility. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
July 12, 20222 yr And the debate continues. 😧 https://www.cleveland.com/news/2022/07/cuyahoga-county-council-reconsidering-new-jail-study-as-debate-continues-over-renovating-vs-building-new.html
July 12, 20222 yr On 6/11/2022 at 9:32 AM, KJP said: That $550 million cost figure has been cited repeatedly in multiple articles. My understanding is that whales are determined by square footage (1+ million) not by cost. I used to subscribe to Dodge. Every so often there would be an interesting kernel of information. But it wasn't enough to justify spending $1,000+ per year on a subscription. When the jail construction gets launched, I wouldn't be surprised to see the county issue an RFP for a private developer to build a new courthouse building that the county would lease for 15-20 years and eventually acquire for little or no cash. Similar approaches were taken with the county administration building and, to a lesser extent, the Hilton hotel. This approach requires less up-front money, has shown to guard against cost overruns (produced surpluses, actually) and spreads the cost over many years like a bond issue but without the interest and bond counsel expenses of a bond issue. The question is common would there be developers interested in responding to an RFP to construct and briefly own such a facility. If they can't decide on the renovation or building of a new jail - pause the project and move onto the courthouse tower
July 12, 20222 yr 14 minutes ago, Chazz Michael Michaels said: If they can't decide on the renovation or building of a new jail - pause the project and move onto the courthouse tower Then they can spend years and years studying renovation or building a new courthouse.
July 12, 20222 yr This decision should’ve been finalized already - I propose a new study: How much has studying and debating the issue over the last several years cost the city of Cleveland in additional construction costs either way??
July 12, 20222 yr 15 minutes ago, CleveFan said: This decision should’ve been finalized already - I propose a new study: How much has studying and debating the issue over the last several years cost the city of Cleveland in additional construction costs either way?? Cuyahoga County
July 12, 20222 yr You can't affordably fix the existing Justice Center (jail or courthouse). This has already been shown to be the case by people who rebuild/build lots of these types of structures all over the country. I understand there are those who don't want a jail at all but that's simply not realistic. The longer we wait, the longer inmates and guards are kept in an inhumane place. Build a new jail and nuke the old place. Move on. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
July 25, 20222 yr https://www.cleveland.com/news/2022/07/cuyahoga-county-shoring-up-distressed-concrete-beneath-jail-as-controversial-renovation-study-ready-to-begin.html
July 25, 20222 yr This is the slowest moving study of all time. Inflation costs the longer they take will more than eat up any “cost savings” the study comes up with.
July 30, 20222 yr Budish to introduce legislation for land purchase and sales tax extension for new jail. https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cuyahoga-county/cuyahoga-county-executive-armond-budish-introduce-legislation-land-purchase-sales-tax-extension-new-jail/95-c939b9c2-58a9-4eda-855f-a9db7276fb6c
August 3, 20222 yr On 7/29/2022 at 9:58 PM, LibertyBlvd said: Budish to introduce legislation for land purchase and sales tax extension for new jail. https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cuyahoga-county/cuyahoga-county-executive-armond-budish-introduce-legislation-land-purchase-sales-tax-extension-new-jail/95-c939b9c2-58a9-4eda-855f-a9db7276fb6c I wonder if I missed something. I thought they were going to do yet another study on whether the jail could be renovated. Or is this just Budish moving forward with plans, with the confidence that the study will say "you need a new jail."
August 3, 20222 yr I'm assuming all of this hinges on the fact that there is a strong potential suitor for the existing facility. Obviously if there is not, renovation at any cost would be the better option.
August 3, 20222 yr 1 hour ago, Jenny said: I'm assuming all of this hinges on the fact that there is a strong potential suitor for the existing facility. Obviously if there is not, renovation at any cost would be the better option. Suitor for the existing jail or suitor for the existing courthouse tower? I can't see the former happening. And the latter is a "maybe." The county is under some pressure by those who seek reforms of the county's justice system to reduce the length and/or number of jail sentences served (replaced with treatment, therapy, etc) and thus, reduce the need for such a large new jail. Or possibly a new jail at all. I'm no expert on the matter but it would seem that the county is limited by state law on how much reforming it can do and thus how much of a reduction in jail space could be achieved. I look for input from our various legal minds like @YABO713, @freefourur, @Htsguy and others. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
August 3, 20222 yr 1 hour ago, KJP said: Suitor for the existing jail or suitor for the existing courthouse tower? I can't see the former happening. And the latter is a "maybe." The county is under some pressure by those who seek reforms of the county's justice system to reduce the length and/or number of jail sentences served (replaced with treatment, therapy, etc) and thus, reduce the need for such a large new jail. Or possibly a new jail at all. I'm no expert on the matter but it would seem that the county is limited by state law on how much reforming it can do and thus how much of a reduction in jail space could be achieved. I look for input from our various legal minds like @YABO713, @freefourur, @Htsguy and others. Tbh @KJPI'm skeptical. Clevelanders love to talk about moving the Justice Center so much that I don't think they'd ever rob themselves of their favorite pastime. On a serious note, it's BADLY needed.
August 3, 20222 yr @KJPI'm certainly not an expert on these things. I think a new jail is likely needed but I think it could be scaled back with some bond reform. People should not sit in jail just because they don't have money. I'm talking about people with low bond amounts not those accused of serious violent offenses. The Serial podcast on the Cuyahoga County justice system is a real eye opener.
August 3, 20222 yr Bottom line is the City uses the County's prison, and the County isn't very happy that the City is trying to spend more County money to build another County prison, when the City could use a prison for lower crimes and offenses. Bottm line, if I were Cuyahoga County I'd make the City build their own, and then re-classify those inmates based on their offenses and the authority that captured them. Edited August 3, 20222 yr by tastybunns
August 4, 20222 yr I believe Ohio law requires the County to bear the costs of jailing prisoners, even if the prisoners are municipal court detainees or convicts.
August 4, 20222 yr 17 hours ago, tastybunns said: Bottom line is the City uses the County's prison, and the County isn't very happy that the City is trying to spend more County money to build another County prison, when the City could use a prison for lower crimes and offenses. Bottm line, if I were Cuyahoga County I'd make the City build their own, and then re-classify those inmates based on their offenses and the authority that captured them. Just being a bit pedantic but the county has a jail and not a prison. Jails, generally hold people awaiting trial who have not yet been convicted of a crime. Those in the county jail are awaiting trial in common pleas court and usually facing a felony charge. People in city jails are awaiting misdemeanor trials. A prison is operated by the state or federal government to house those already convicted of a crime.
August 4, 20222 yr OK, I'm going to throw up. Let's get back to development... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
August 18, 20222 yr Environmental study confirms toxins at potential jail site, but lays out plan for remediation https://www.cleveland.com/news/2022/08/environmental-study-confirms-toxins-at-potential-jail-site-but-lays-out-plan-for-remediation.html Based on everything I know about this site, I continue to think this site could be one of the worst decisions the County makes...The costs are going to be crazy not only for the immediate remediation, but throughout construction, and in perpetuity with long-term O&M for all these special engineering controls that will need to be maintained. God forbid an inmate develop/die of cancer and then the County gets sued for the potential exposure... I'm sure our tax dollars are going to clean this up for somebody someday, but I'm not sure it's a site best served for a jail with "residents"
August 18, 20222 yr 1 hour ago, scb0525 said: Based on everything I know about this site, I continue to think this site could be one of the worst decisions the County makes...The costs are going to be crazy not only for the immediate remediation, but throughout construction, and in perpetuity with long-term O&M for all these special engineering controls that will need to be maintained. God forbid an inmate develop/die of cancer and then the County gets sued for the potential exposure... I'm sure our tax dollars are going to clean this up for somebody someday, but I'm not sure it's a site best served for a jail with "residents" I completely agree; a residential project (like a jail) is far from ideal here -- but no private developer is ever going to take on the cleanup, it will have to be a government project of some kind on this site. Hopefully some of the new federal superfund dollars could come here.
August 18, 20222 yr 3 hours ago, scb0525 said: I'm sure our tax dollars are going to clean this up for somebody someday, but I'm not sure it's a site best served for a jail with "residents" It's a great site for a shipping container storage facility.
August 18, 20222 yr The process for deciding what to do with the Justice Center started in 2015. This report should've been started then. Instead we've moved forward seven years without knowing how suitable one of the leading sites is. My personal opinion before this report was that this was the best site based purely on land-use considerations. I have no expertise in interpreting the severity of this information, but it seems to put a major damper on subjecting inmates and workers to these potential hazards.
August 18, 20222 yr Not sure what all the hand-wringing is over. Appelbaum says the report shows that the property can be remediated and used for a jail - providing "better air quality than most residential homes in Cuyahoga County that have properly functioning HVAC equipment." Cleveland is an old, dirty industrial city. I'd be surprised if there is ANY open land of this size in the City that does not need remediated. If remediated land is good enough for the residents of Battery Park and Electric Gardens, its good enough for short terming inmates, who will enjoy better air quality than most. Edited August 18, 20222 yr by gruver
August 26, 20222 yr https://www.cleveland.com/news/2022/08/gov-mike-dewine-announces-new-funding-round-for-local-jails.html
September 13, 20222 yr Does anyone know how far along they are in the study/process of determining whether to renovate or replace the Justice Center? I have no idea why ( except that some people are getting paid while the proverbial can gets kicked down the road) but it seems to be a very long timeline.
September 19, 20222 yr On 8/26/2022 at 2:38 PM, LibertyBlvd said: https://www.cleveland.com/news/2022/08/gov-mike-dewine-announces-new-funding-round-for-local-jails.html of course. lets fix up and add more jails. god forbid every dime for that was matched by money for alternatives to incarceration. even as the most cynical of taxpayers, guess which tact is a better bang for your buck? so i’ll be watching for that seperate bill for alternatives to locking up troubled people that i am sure dewine is also working hard on, huh? 🙄
September 19, 20222 yr 2 hours ago, mrnyc said: of course. lets fix up and add more jails. god forbid every dime for that was matched by money for alternatives to incarceration. even as the most cynical of taxpayers, guess which tact is a better bang for your buck? so i’ll be watching for that seperate bill for alternatives to locking up troubled people that i am sure dewine is also working hard on, huh? 🙄 If people view this as an incentive to incarcerate more people, then I agree with you. But if it helps more prisons become more modernized and more humane, like the Cuyahoga prison needs, then I am okay with it.
September 19, 20222 yr Is it the combination of Courts Tower and Justice Center that has our estimate at the original $500M (now $700M)? Looking over Franklin County's facility theirs cost $360M to build - 430,000 sq. ft., 864 beds expanding to another 426 in the next phase. I'm sure timing also played a part, but is our huge price tag just for a jail?
September 19, 20222 yr The question I have is will the new prison only be a new prison, or will there be other important services updated or added to it new, that cannot be added to the current one? Such as drug and alcohol remediation, transitioning, support for families, etc. If we look it as only a place to house inmates, then judicial reform is the question, but if it is being looked at as a revamp of everything that has been done before in Cuyahoga County, like a systemic change in philosophy to incarceration, then a new, 21st century building makes sense.
September 19, 20222 yr 6 minutes ago, scg80 said: The question I have is will the new prison only be a new prison, or will there be other important services updated or added to it new, that cannot be added to the current one? Such as drug and alcohol remediation, transitioning, support for families, etc. If we look it as only a place to house inmates, then judicial reform is the question, but if it is being looked at as a revamp of everything that has been done before in Cuyahoga County, like a systemic change in philosophy to incarceration, then a new, 21st century building makes sense. It really is not a prison but a jail, usually for those awaiting trial. Once convicted they are sent to other facilities. Of course, as we have seen, if you cannot make bail you might be in the Justice Center facility for a long time and it might seem like a prison. I am not sure but they might even use the facility for short sentences.
September 19, 20222 yr not a lawyer, but I thought people serving a year or less (misdemeanors) serve their sentence in county - Prisons are for felons being processed through the state.
September 19, 20222 yr This may not be able to happen because of rising costs, interest rates, potential recession, etc but a new courthouse tower (even if not a supertall structure) is a tremendous opportunity to transform downtown and the surrounding areas. For example, from San Diego. When/if this happens, I hope it they get it right
September 19, 20222 yr I know different time, different cities but when you compare that courthouse tower to ours...wow, just wow. Can we get something sparkling like that?
September 20, 20222 yr 16 hours ago, cadmen said: I know different time, different cities but when you compare that courthouse tower to ours...wow, just wow. Can we get something sparkling like that? it's cool and good to take a look at shiny projects like that, but when you get down into the brass tacks of that one maybe it's not so great? i did a little research on it and first of all, the good news -- aside from its outwardly handsome good looks, the $555M 22 story/705k sq ft sd courthouse tower was opened in 2017 and was funded entirely by fees and not by taxpayers. note that $555,000,000 in 2016 conservatively equals $654,201,923.69 in 2022. the funding it via fees option initially requires a quick look at the cities themselves -- san diego city has a million and half residents and you would have to go back to 1950's san diego to compare its population to cleveland today. also the greater sd area, yes including tijuana, is i think over 5M vs cle with 3M. whatever, the point being they have a lot of people to draw from who presumably got parking tickets and the like to pay for it. ok, so rather than whine over that typical a star is born cleveland vs the world city comparison trajectory like we all always do, lets get right to the debbie downer for this facility. they didnt build a tunnel to connect from the jail to the courthouse, so it made it a big issue to transport jailbirds -- also they went from a five story building to this 22 story design, which requires many more staff to be safe. these issues resulted in apparantly underplanned for and major extra fees per year: https://www.10news.com/news/team-10/security-issues-at-new-central-courthouse-will-cost-taxpayers-3-million also, per some later news i saw the hvac seems to be an issue and the ac goes out. annoying if typical of new public buildings. bottom line is clevelanders and visitors would have to do a lot of speeding and double parking to get fees to fund something like this lol!
September 20, 20222 yr Ok, I have to admit I was on the fence about whether to keep the JC or tear it down. And while it does seem that there is momentum to replace the courts and the jail with something new the question was what to do with the existing complex? Re-purpose it for...housing maybe?? At what cost and to what (visual) end? And by not tearing it down downtown DOES continue to keep a much needed high-rise. But after being reminded by the photo of the San Diego court building the contrast is just too much and serves to remind me of how ugly the JC is and how I think that no mater how hard we try to give it a new look it will be the same as putting lipstick on a pig. That tower is so ponderous, somehow managing to be tall and squat at the same time. It is so soul suckingly beige it overwhelms the beauty of the buildings around it. Finally, it is a reminder of a time ('70's) when things really started to go wrong in our city. We don't need a building that personifies those bleak times. I'd rather lose the high-rise and replace it with a bunch of mid-rise apartments or dare I say, actual for sale units. Doing so would enhance the warehouse district and we'd be better off in the long run. Let's cut our loses and move on.
September 20, 20222 yr mrnyc I get your point about the cost of a new complex and that, of course is the root of another problem. Where does the money come from? But from what I've read the cost of re-purposing the JC complex into a new JC complex is about the same as building a new courthouse and a new jail so we're damned if we do and damned if we don't. I don't pretend to know how we can pay for it but if the question is new vs. re-purpose/continue to keep it as a JC complex and the numbers are comparable I vote for new. And if it is new and the question then becomes what to do with the old JC I vote tear it down and start over.
September 20, 20222 yr 24 minutes ago, mrnyc said: it's cool and good to take a look at shiny projects like that, but when you get down into the brass tacks of that one maybe it's not so great? i did a little research on it and first of all, the good news -- aside from its outwardly handsome good looks, the $555M 22 story/705k sq ft sd courthouse tower was opened in 2017 and was funded entirely by fees and not by taxpayers. note that $555,000,000 in 2016 conservatively equals $654,201,923.69 in 2022. the funding it via fees option initially requires a quick look at the cities themselves -- san diego city has a million and half residents and you would have to go back to 1950's san diego to compare its population to cleveland today. also the greater sd area, yes including tijuana, is i think over 5M vs cle with 3M. whatever, the point being they have a lot of people to draw from who presumably got parking tickets and the like to pay for it. ok, so rather than whine over that typical a star is born cleveland vs the world city comparison trajectory like we all always do, lets get right to the debbie downer for this facility. they didnt build a tunnel to connect from the jail to the courthouse, so it made it a big issue to transport jailbirds -- also they went from a five story building to this 22 story design, which requires many more staff to be safe. these issues resulted in apparantly underplanned for and major extra fees per year: https://www.10news.com/news/team-10/security-issues-at-new-central-courthouse-will-cost-taxpayers-3-million also, per some later news i saw the hvac seems to be an issue and the ac goes out. annoying if typical of new public buildings. bottom line is clevelanders and visitors would have to do a lot of speeding and double parking to get fees to fund something like this lol! Good points - all of them (although I wonder if there would be any difference in the cost of construction in CA vs OH). Having said that, my point is more that I believe a new courthouse tower is a tremendous opportunity for the city to create a showpiece for itself, to eliminate a dilapidated building and create jobs. This all assumes the project is studied (pretty sure that's been done) and then funded and executed properly
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