Incoming!

 

2 hours ago, KJP said:

Incoming!

 

That’s the good bomb right?!

 

Surprising sites emerge for Courthouse Tower
By Ken Prendergast / September 15, 2023

 

A few notable developers are reportedly offering several prominent, if not surprising downtown properties as options to host what will be a nearly 900,000-square-foot Cuyahoga County Courthouse Consolidation project. The square footage, not including parking which will be extra, represents specialty office space that property owners are desperately trying to fill in this post-pandemic real estate market. The sheer size of the courthouse consolidation project may create a competition that bears watching.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/09/15/surprising-sites-emerge-for-courthouse-tower/

925 would be a good option if they choose to renovate. wonder if there are other county office that could be consolidated there

It’s hard to imagine a 93 year old building being adapted to current standards for a new courthouse tower. From a location standpoint, it would make sense. But I guess it’s all going to come down to money in the final analysis. 
 

My wish - a new courthouse tower near the Stokes Courthouse tower as part of the new riverfront development. And no destruction of the current Justice Center tower - but a residential or mixed use makeover.  There’s got to be a way to preserve that 420’ tower in an improved/updated version - or is that unrealistic?  

Edited September 15, 20231 yr by CleveFan

3 minutes ago, Whipjacka said:

925 would be a good option if they choose to renovate. 

Totally agree, but I do want my shiny, new tower!!

 

5 minutes ago, Whipjacka said:

925 would be a good option if they choose to renovate. wonder if there are other county office that could be consolidated there

The fact that millennial is even offering it as a consideration is frustrating. The last we heard they finally had their ducks in order and we’re going to start construction before the end of the year. Obviously this is a bunch of BS. It’s about time they just give it up and drop the huge TMUD credit so it can be recycled by the state.

5 minutes ago, CleveFan said:

My wish - a new courthouse tower near the Stokes Courthouse tower as part of the new riverfront development. And no destruction of the current Justice Center tower - but a residential or mixed use makeover.  There’s got to be a way to preserve that 420’ tower in an improved/updated version - or is that unrealistic?  

No, it is not unrealistic.  I'm sure the tower can be preserved as residential or mixed use.  And I think it would look much better if the police HQ and jail buildings surrounding it are removed.

15 minutes ago, CleveFan said:

It’s hard to imagine a 93 year old building being adapted to current standards for a new courthouse tower. From a location standpoint, it would make sense. But I guess it’s all going to come down to money in the final analysis. 
 

My wish - a new courthouse tower near the Stokes Courthouse tower as part of the new riverfront development. And no destruction of the current Justice Center tower - but a residential or mixed use makeover.  There’s got to be a way to preserve that 420’ tower in an improved/updated version - or is that unrealistic?  

On the one hand, using public dollars for for Riverfront revitalization is nice. But on the other hand, a bunch of courthouses doesn’t really lend itself to a lively riverfront with much to do…having multiple large buildings with no public access doesn’t seem like the best idea to me.

11 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

I'm sure the tower can be preserved as residential or mixed use.

It can definitely be reused.  Residential would be fine, but my first thought was the tower could be a potential HQ for Cle Cliffs.  I think it's about the right size. An office conversion would probably be easier than residential and the floorplates would be more efficient for office.  Plus the site would still have space for a garage wrapped with residential.

^ The tower could also work for Rocket Mortgage too, but it might be too big for them and I would be shocked if they aren't already planning to build on the riverfront

37 minutes ago, Enginerd said:

On the one hand, using public dollars for for Riverfront revitalization is nice. But on the other hand, a bunch of courthouses doesn’t really lend itself to a lively riverfront with much to do…having multiple large buildings with no public access doesn’t seem like the best idea to me.

Hypothetically. a new Justice Center tower would be at the northern end of the riverfront development creating a Justice plaza with the existing courthouse.  It wouldn’t be multiple large buildings and it should leave the vast majority of the riverfront still open for development. 

First off, thanks for the article Ken. It had some new stuff that puts a spin on what we thought we knew. 

 

So the Landmark building and 925 Euclid added to the possibilities. How to take that...

 

If 925 gets the courthouse that means they are struggling with their original plan. Not good but also not surprising considering just how difficult it will be to make the numbers/idea work. If they do get it 9th and Euclid may just recapture some of its old energy.

 

And if the Landmark building gets it that takes a great building out of the residential space. But IF it does get the courthouse it instantly adds more life to Tower City. 

 

Then again, if either are the site we don't get a new tower. Booooo.

 

If Bedrock wins we get a new build that a should kick-start the riverfront project.

 

So many options and they all come with positives and negatives. I don't know which one l prefer but it sure will be interesting to watch.

A somewhat similar project to a potential redevelopment of the Justice Center block/tower is the Seneca One tower redevelopment in Buffalo. Obviously the scale and former uses of the structures varied significantly, but they are both somewhat similar looking early 1970s brutalist towers with large (mostly) featureless plazas - (also both a few blocks from a lakefront redevelopment project). Again not a 1-1 comparison, but its an interesting example of what could be done with the Justice Center Tower.

 

 

 

If the finances work out, ideally you redevelop the tower into a mixed use project like they did in Buffalo and demo the remaining structures on the block, an area close to 5 acres of additional land (about the size of The Q).

 

The site east of Stokes between Huron and Breen would easily be my preferred site for the Courts downtown. Getting this large of a tenant on board with Bedrocks riverfront redevelopment could really help speed up that projects timeline. Another interesting comparison with our other Lake Erie neighbor that would point to Bedrock as a likely developer of the new courts is their work with Wayne County in Detroit. In 2018 Gilbert agreed to build a new Wayne County Criminal Justice Center in return for the current jails (along with other county owned) land downtown. I can't speak to the deals finer details (or how well Bedrock has executed on them) but their involvement with that project could defiantly point to there level of interest (and familiarity) in getting something similar done with building new county courts in Cleveland. Bedrocks county jail project, which should be opening in a few months, has had some cost overruns and various delays.  Wayne County approves deal for new jail complex - Dan Gilbert’s getting into the jail-building business

 

Bedrock misses 2nd handover deadline for Wayne County criminal justice complex

1 hour ago, NorthShore647 said:

 

Bedrock misses 2nd handover deadline for Wayne County criminal justice complex

I understand its an admin building for a jail complex so its not meant to project beauty, but that's one fugly looking uninspiring green glass blob. 

 

Edited September 16, 20231 yr by DO_Summers

On 9/15/2023 at 8:01 PM, DO_Summers said:

I understand its an admin building for a jail complex so its not meant to project beauty, but that's one fugly looking uninspiring green glass blob. 

 

What's the saying? Don't throw stones if you live...ah nevermind

 

 

 

Back on topic though, I like the idea of reuse of some spaces - seems like it'd be a weird security nightmare if you had this type of mixed development in 925 - are there any places that have a courthouse, law offices, commercial, and residential in the same building? I'm sure it's a yes, but I'd like to see how that works. That said 925 is massive enough to really cordon off spaces for specific uses. 

34 minutes ago, GISguy said:

Back on topic though, I like the idea of reuse of some spaces - seems like it'd be a weird security nightmare if you had this type of mixed development in 925 - are there any places that have a courthouse, law offices, commercial, and residential in the same building? I'm sure it's a yes, but I'd like to see how that works. That said 925 is massive enough to really cordon off spaces for specific uses. 

I thought that's why the old PD building was rejected for new police HQ since there is another tenant in the building.

 

Edited September 18, 20231 yr by LibertyBlvd

1 hour ago, GISguy said:

 

Back on topic though, I like the idea of reuse of some spaces - seems like it'd be a weird security nightmare if you had this type of mixed development in 925 - are there any places that have a courthouse, law offices, commercial, and residential in the same building? I'm sure it's a yes, but I'd like to see how that works. That said 925 is massive enough to really cordon off spaces for specific uses. 

 

Does the jail and the court rooms have to be in the same building/complex?  I thought they came together as a package. If so, we wouldn't want jail cells at 925 Euclid!

2 minutes ago, DinaB said:

 

Does the jail and the court rooms have to be in the same building/complex?  I thought they came together as a package. If so, we wouldn't want jail cells at 925 Euclid!

No. The county is separating the jail from the courthouse in the new construction.

Cuyahoga County Council approves jail site purchase, but construction funding unclear

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2023/09/cuyahoga-county-council-approves-jail-site-purchase-but-construction-funding-unclear.html

1 minute ago, brownsfan1226 said:

Cuyahoga County Council approves jail site purchase, but construction funding unclear

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2023/09/cuyahoga-county-council-approves-jail-site-purchase-but-construction-funding-unclear.html

So, from a once proposed IKEA site to a jail site, drawing all the best from the surrounding area - what a great tradeoff.

7 minutes ago, eyehrtfood said:

So, from a once proposed IKEA site to a jail site, drawing all the best from the surrounding area - what a great tradeoff.

If it’s that attractive of a site, why did IKEA pass it up, not to mention myriad other possible uses?  A jail is a necessary function.  At least this is about as centrally located in the county as can be.  And with the conditions at the current jail reportedly abhorrent if not inhumane, more years of dithering on it are in no one’s interest.

The Garfield site is prime land that could have been used for something much better than a jail. The view from there is spectacular - I hope the inmates enjoy it. 

 

 I don't recall IKEA considering Garfield. I only remember them considering the Brooklyn wetlands site.

 

Edited September 27, 20231 yr by LibertyBlvd

Journalism has gotten so terrible.  You would think the article would include an address or description of the location.  I eventually found the location but geez, it shouldn't be that hard.  

12 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said:

The Garfield site is prime land that could have been used for something much better than a jail. The view from there is spectacular - I hope the inmates enjoy it. 

 

 I don't recall IKEA considering Garfield. I only remember them considering the Brooklyn wetlands site.

 

If it so prime why has it been sitting vacant for more than 20 years with a rusting shell of a half built strip mall building.  Garfield officials both past and present clearly know the value of the land and who has, or more likely have not, been pursuing development and were before the county council begging for the jail.

12 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

If it so prime why has it been sitting vacant for more than 20 years with a rusting shell of a half built strip mall building. 

Good question.  The strip mall is on the south side of i-480.  The jail site is on the north side.

Just now, LibertyBlvd said:

Good question.  The strip mall is on the south side of i-480.  The jail site is on the north side.

There is a remanent of a strip mall building on the north side constructed years ago.  The development project began, stopped and never commenced.  The shell has sat there for years just rusting.  The north site consisted of a number of buildings, some single family homes,  which were demoed for this second shopping center which never happened.  This is the jail site.  And for what is worth, the retail on the south side has had a tortious history as well and is now hardly what was originally visioned.

There's some very big reasons why Cityview failed.

 

 

A billion dollar mistake!

Redirect from the visualizations thread......

 

14 minutes ago, Whipjacka said:

I forget if this was discussed, but is e9 and prospect an option for the courthouse? would be a cross from the county hq - they could build a new garage to share the resource

 

There have been no interested parties associated with that area who have been involved with the county's RFP. And since the deadline for responding to the RFP was extended, I get the sense that either the county isn't happy with the responses they're getting or the interested parties aren't happy with the county when it comes to guidance. How much is the county going to commit to the courthouse project? We probably don't know that until the county council extends the sales tax and the jail project bids come in.

^No big surprise.  This whole idea is screwy.  Again lack of leadership at all levels at the county.  More and more delays...costs just keep going up.

There's still a lot of surface parking in the Warehouse District....near all the law offices too.  W. 9th and St. Clair would be a good spot for a new courthouse.

Walked around the Garfield/Bridgeview site yesterday. Posted in the newly revived GH/BC thread, but it's amazing how huge the site actually is. I walked 2 miles and that was mostly the perimeter. I said it in that thread, but the county is doing the city a real solid in purchasing this site, it'd be interesting to speak with the folks that got eminent domained to see their opinion on the site laying fallow for 15+ years.

 

 

On 9/18/2023 at 12:45 PM, GISguy said:

 

What's the saying? Don't throw stones if you live...ah nevermind

 

 

 

Back on topic though, I like the idea of reuse of some spaces - seems like it'd be a weird security nightmare if you had this type of mixed development in 925 - are there any places that have a courthouse, law offices, commercial, and residential in the same building? I'm sure it's a yes, but I'd like to see how that works. That said 925 is massive enough to really cordon off spaces for specific uses. 

How about the Virgil E Brown Building, the City's "north point", and add the huge 1506 Superior parking lot + the vacant building at 1500 Superior (same owner).  That would be a big development site.

There's something being planned for this site, but not the justice center

Northpoint housing - that was the old Lake Erie Motel.

20 hours ago, zbaris87 said:

There's something being planned for this site, but not the justice center

Any other insight on this? Is the Virgil Brown Center eyesore being done away with?

 

There's a mass of parcels here if redeveloped with mixed uses would lowkey be pretty transformational IMO. Probably more so than some other higher-profile concepts around Cleveland being discussed. I've only heard about the Greyhound site from KJP's article.

 

 

Edited October 24, 20231 yr by Rustbelter

Crain's jumped in on the Greyhound story this week. Suffice it to say, there's a lot in play in this area. I can't say anymore right now, as I was probably a little early in sharing that Greyhound site story. But that's what we do at NEOtrans -- "we're usually first and always free!"

4 hours ago, KJP said:

Crain's jumped in on the Greyhound story this week. Suffice it to say, there's a lot in play in this area. I can't say anymore right now, as I was probably a little early in sharing that Greyhound site story. But that's what we do at NEOtrans -- "we're usually first and always free!"

The new Browns stadium is going slightly north of here?  ha 

Seven groups respond to Cuyahoga County's Justice Center RFP

 

Crains' coverage of the RFP process:

 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/cuyahoga-county-justice-center-rfp-garners-seven-proposals

1 hour ago, brownsfan1226 said:

Seven groups respond to Cuyahoga County's Justice Center RFP

 

Crains' coverage of the RFP process:

 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/cuyahoga-county-justice-center-rfp-garners-seven-proposals

It will be interesting to see which developer absolutely takes the county to the cleaners for hundreds of millions of dollars and which county officials will be accused of graft/apologize for the justice center disaster in 15 years. (Cynicism/off)

1 hour ago, brownsfan1226 said:

Seven groups respond to Cuyahoga County's Justice Center RFP

 

Crains' coverage of the RFP process:

 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/cuyahoga-county-justice-center-rfp-garners-seven-proposals

I, for one, hope the solution is a nice, shiny tower (I can't open the Crain's article to see if details were provided).  Cleveland is so well positioned for a rebound in the coming decades (climate change, manufacturing returns, immigration, etc).

I hope the city recognizes this and uses this opportunity to build another SHW-esque tower as a shining beacon to the world that the city is back on rise.  (Optimism/off).

40 minutes ago, Chazz Michael Michaels said:

I, for one, hope the solution is a nice, shiny tower (I can't open the Crain's article to see if details were provided).  Cleveland is so well positioned for a rebound in the coming decades (climate change, manufacturing returns, immigration, etc).

I hope the city recognizes this and uses this opportunity to build another SHW-esque tower as a shining beacon to the world that the city is back on rise.  (Optimism/off).

Does seem to be unusual to say that the current building is functionally obsolete while also suggesting that an even older office building could be renovated for less...

I like this proposal. No skyscraper, but it looks like decent density, and I like the classically styled buildings. This is the only proposal in the article with a picture.

 

 

From the article, "They’re proposing to demolish the entire Justice Center complex and replace it with eight lower-slung buildings, each of them evoking or replicating a historic structure that once stood in downtown Cleveland. The buildings could include ground-floor retail and restaurants."

 

Further described as "Campus-like" and compromising 1.2 million Sq ft. Of new construction. I like it. I'd prefer all of these beautiful buildings over one shiny glass skyscraper. 

2 minutes ago, Ethan said:

I like this proposal. No skyscraper, but it looks like decent density, and I like the classically styled buildings. This is the only proposal in the article with a picture.

 

 

From the article, "They’re proposing to demolish the entire Justice Center complex and replace it with eight lower-slung buildings, each of them evoking or replicating a historic structure that once stood in downtown Cleveland. The buildings could include ground-floor retail and restaurants."

 

Further described as "Campus-like" and compromising 1.2 million Sq ft. Of new construction. I like it. I'd prefer all of these beautiful buildings over one shiny glass skyscraper. 

I have no problem with the design of those buildings. But it would be a real disappointment if buildings this short eat up that big of a footprint in Cleveland's CBD. This looks more like something I would see in a place like Berea.

I'm usually more interested in a high rise but l kinda like this campus look. Done right, these kind of buildings working together can be quite an asset. The key is creating a high quality design, not some off the shelf plan. 

It would be beautiful  in Berea or even midtown - not next to SW!!   super disappointed if they’re really thinking of tearing down the Justice Center-  which for all the hate it gets - is an impressive big city brutalist tower - for this small town vibe in the center of the downtown core. So tired of odes to the past architecturally - Smh. 

Edited October 31, 20231 yr by CleveFan

46 minutes ago, TMart said:

This looks more like something I would see in a place like Berea.

Alternatively, Paris... Most European cities are filled with 4-8 story buildings and are still very dense. 

 

6 minutes ago, CleveFan said:

It would be beautiful  in Berea or even midtown - not next to SW!!   super disappointed if they’re really thinking of tearing down the Justice Center-  which for all the hate it gets - is an impressive big city brutalist tower - for this small town vibe in the center of the downtown core.  Wow 

It's also right next to the warehouse district which is full of 4-6 story buildings. It looks like the shortest proposed buildings here are about 5 stories, and the tallest is about 13-14. (It's hard to tell from the picture, and I think it's more of a vision than a proposal). I can understand preferring a skyscraper, but let's not get too melodramatic. 

It’s in the center of the core of the city - I guess we all have different mindsets about what that should look like. Sorry if I was too melodramatic for you @Ethan - I really dislike when people critique others’ word choices  here  - I’m expressing a concept which is my right on this forum. 

Edited October 31, 20231 yr by CleveFan

1 hour ago, Ethan said:

I like this proposal. No skyscraper, but it looks like decent density, and I like the classically styled buildings. This is the only proposal in the article with a picture.

 

 

From the article, "They’re proposing to demolish the entire Justice Center complex and replace it with eight lower-slung buildings, each of them evoking or replicating a historic structure that once stood in downtown Cleveland. The buildings could include ground-floor retail and restaurants."

 

Further described as "Campus-like" and compromising 1.2 million Sq ft. Of new construction. I like it. I'd prefer all of these beautiful buildings over one shiny glass skyscraper. 

I see:

 

Engineers building 

Hollenden Hotel

Hickox Building 

City Hall 1880’s era

 

What else we got here?

Also, doubtful ceiling heights of most of those buildings would be acceptable today for office uses.

 

I can appreciate the density the shorter buildings would create. I for one am a huge fan of the physical build of D.C. It may not have tall buildings- but the density, public transit (TODs galore around the subway stops), constant foot traffic, and public spaces let you know you’re in a great city when you’re there. 
 

However…  having said that and I’ve said this before… I’d rather not lose the courthouse tower and not have something at least as tall replace it.