Redirecting from the Centennial thread.........

 

On 12/8/2023 at 7:45 PM, freefourur said:

I think the county wants a new building rather than a renovated building.

 

 

Yep.

 

Which means TurnDev's proposal.

 

I suggested the winner in the last four paragraphs of this column by noting that they're offering what the county wants...

 

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/11/03/courthouse-proposals-are-on-trial/

 

 

Enjoy!

1 hour ago, KJP said:

Redirecting from the Centennial thread 

 

 

 

Yep. Which means TurnDev's proposal. I suggested the winner in the last four paragraphs of this column by noting that they're offering what the county wants...

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/11/03/courthouse-proposals-are-on-trial/

 

 

Get that Waterfront Line running regularly again, and that site will have great transit access, as well.

The thing I like about the TurnDev proposal (the little we do know at this point) is if "done right" it has the potential to connect the future Lakefront development with the Flats East Bank, something which is not the case at this time.  Specifically the pedestrian experience.  of course the build out, while massive, will probably not be particularly tall which will disappoint a number of people.

Edited December 9, 20231 yr by Htsguy

Cuyahoga County rams through 40-year tax raise to fund jail in split vote

In a 6-5 vote, council approved extending a .25% sales tax for an additional 40 years – a move that will keep Cuyahoga County’s sales tax rate at 8%, the highest in the state, without voter approval. The tax extension is expected to generate about $52 million in annual collections to pay for a new jail and possibly a new or renovated courts complex – projects that have been estimated to cost the public $750 million and $1 billion, respectively.

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2023/12/cuyahoga-county-rams-through-40-year-tax-raise-to-fund-jail-in-split-vote.html

On 11/25/2023 at 10:19 AM, LibertyBlvd said:

I'd like to see a rendering of a hi rise residential building on the Garfield site. The views from there would be quite nice.

 

 

^ "I think the county wants a new building rather than a renovated building."

 

 

Wow, if my math is correct, a .25% increase will generate just over 2 trillion in tax revenue over the next 40 years....is that correct?

Edited December 14, 20231 yr by dski44

3 hours ago, dski44 said:

Wow, if my math is correct, a .25% increase will generate just over 2 trillion in tax revenue over the next 40 years....is that correct?

I think it's billion. $52mm x 40 years.

1 hour ago, Mov2Ohio said:

I think it's billion. $52mm x 40 years.

Thank you...I should check my math before looking like an idiot.  Lol

On 12/8/2023 at 8:02 PM, KJP said:

Redirecting from the Centennial thread 

 

 

 

Yep. Which means TurnDev's proposal. I suggested the winner in the last four paragraphs of this column by noting that they're offering what the county wants...

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/11/03/courthouse-proposals-are-on-trial/

 

 

The Pit is (currently) such a depressing pocket of downtown that my mind rebelled about putting a brand new JC there.  But I re-read thouse last couple paragraphs of your article, Ken, and I'm warming up to it.  The dropoff from the 50' lake bluff to the Pit would actually be a *perfect* spot for a 4-5 level parking garage and would enable the Courthouse tower to make an impact on the skyline (while extending said skyline a bit north).  And the potential for connecting W. 6th and 9th to the lakefront would be an opportunity as well, especially if the traffic engineers can slow the Shoerway down.  In fact, it would be a nice parellel to the land bridge they want to build from East 9th down to the Rock Hall and Science Center.

Thanks again to @Geowizical for the renders!

 

 

Three big county projects about to advance

By Ken Prendergast / December 18, 2023

 

Fifteen years ago, when the Great Recession could let someone go bowling down East 9th Street without hitting anyone, three major construction projects were about to get started and provide the city of Cleveland with much-needed economic stimulus. Back then, construction of the new Huntington Convention Center, the Flats East Bank redevelopment, and the new Inner Belt highway bridges represented a total public works investment of nearly $1.5 billion.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/12/18/three-big-county-projects-about-to-advance/

59 minutes ago, KJP said:

Thanks again to @Geowizical for the renders!

 

 

Three big county projects about to advance

By Ken Prendergast / December 18, 2023

 

Fifteen years ago, when the Great Recession could let someone go bowling down East 9th Street without hitting anyone, three major construction projects were about to get started and provide the city of Cleveland with much-needed economic stimulus. Back then, construction of the new Huntington Convention Center, the Flats East Bank redevelopment, and the new Inner Belt highway bridges represented a total public works investment of nearly $1.5 billion.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/12/18/three-big-county-projects-about-to-advance/

Has Crain’s offered you a job yet? Great, comprehensive article!

17 hours ago, marty15 said:

Has Crain’s offered you a job yet? Great, comprehensive article!

 

With Michelle Jarboe leaving Cleveland Mag and Crains might have to duke it out over @KJP

Nice of you guys to say, but no one wants to hire a 56-year-old so he can retire on their nickel in just a few years.

 

Anyhoo, the point of the article is there is going to be massive public works projects coming from this $4 billion influx in the coming years. How can we use it to make downtown a better place for decades to come?

 

The first answer -- by getting the jail out of downtown. Addition by subtraction.

 

Then move the courthouse and its thousands of workers and daily visitors to energize a new location.

 

Then, what do we do with the Justice Center campus which is going to be partially or wholly vacated? How do we reboot this site to help pivot downtown away from its dependency on the office market?

19 hours ago, KJP said:

Thanks again to @Geowizical for the renders!

 

 

Three big county projects about to advance

By Ken Prendergast / December 18, 2023

 

Fifteen years ago, when the Great Recession could let someone go bowling down East 9th Street without hitting anyone, three major construction projects were about to get started and provide the city of Cleveland with much-needed economic stimulus. Back then, construction of the new Huntington Convention Center, the Flats East Bank redevelopment, and the new Inner Belt highway bridges represented a total public works investment of nearly $1.5 billion.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/12/18/three-big-county-projects-about-to-advance/

Great article - as per usual.  I am one of those high-rise lovers that will shed a tear if a tall building isn't built for the courthouse tower.

Having said that, new development in the city is a win and I'm excited to see what they come up with.

22 minutes ago, KJP said:

Nice of you guys to say, but no one wants to hire a 56-year-old so he can retire on their nickel in just a few years.

But they could give you a five-ten year contract with a stipulation that you train a newby as a replacement....

6 minutes ago, Foraker said:

But they could give you a five-ten year contract with a stipulation that you train a newby as a replacement....

7 minutes ago, Chazz Michael Michaels said:

Great article - as per usual.  I am one of those high-rise lovers that will shed a tear if a tall building isn't built for the courthouse tower.

Having said that, new development in the city is a win and I'm excited to see what they come up with.

I'm surprised Bedrock's only courthouse proposal was the Landmark building.  The rendering for the riverview development shows several towers.  Maybe Rocket Mortgage will fill one of them.   Who will be filling all the others?  

19 hours ago, KJP said:

Thanks again to @Geowizical for the renders!

 

 

Three big county projects about to advance

By Ken Prendergast / December 18, 2023

 

Fifteen years ago, when the Great Recession could let someone go bowling down East 9th Street without hitting anyone, three major construction projects were about to get started and provide the city of Cleveland with much-needed economic stimulus. Back then, construction of the new Huntington Convention Center, the Flats East Bank redevelopment, and the new Inner Belt highway bridges represented a total public works investment of nearly $1.5 billion.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/12/18/three-big-county-projects-about-to-advance/

Great article! I realize this is just a massing, but there is just too much horizontal mass and not enough vertical mass imo. It is shaped like a Great Lakes freighter. 

11 minutes ago, TMart said:

Great article! I realize this is just a massing, but there is just too much horizontal mass and not enough vertical mass imo. It is shaped like a Great Lakes freighter. 

The thing about the massing/site is the 55’ drop of the Pit. What we’ve shown here is a 300’ and 250’ building, but because of the elevation change, the site looks short and stubby, as the atriums of the buildings are essentially 50’ above ground. I agree, more verticality would be needed on this site to make a visible impact.

Edited December 19, 20231 yr by Geowizical

Not a good look.  How about something similar to this building in Sacramento:

 

https://loc.getarchive.net/media/the-10-story-ziggurat-a-pyramidal-state-office-building-along-the-sacramento-4

 

30 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Not a good look.  How about something similar to this building in Sacramento:

 

https://loc.getarchive.net/media/the-10-story-ziggurat-a-pyramidal-state-office-building-along-the-sacramento-4

 

Seems like that design works better in a drier climate. LOL

I, personally, am quite doubtful that a giant public parking deck will be permitted directly beneath a courthouse.  I've been to a lot of courts, and I have never seen public parking under a courthouse.  Oklahoma City.   

Edited December 19, 20231 yr by gruver

1 minute ago, gruver said:

I, personally, am quite doubtful that a giant public parking deck will be permitted directly beneath a courthouse.  I've been to a lot of courts, and I have never seen public parking under a courthouse.  Oklahoma City.   

True. Big security issue. Can you imagine them having to close the garage for any heightened security event?

1 hour ago, Geowizical said:

The thing about the massing/site is the 55’ drop of the Pit. What we’ve shown here is a 300’ and 250’ building, but because of the elevation change, the site looks short and stubby, as the atriums of the buildings are essentially 50’ above ground. I agree, more verticality would be needed on this site to make a visible impact.

I think if you cut the horizontal size in half and double the height, keeping the stepped design, the proportions would look a lot better. 

3 hours ago, KJP said:

Nice of you guys to say, but no one wants to hire a 56-year-old so he can retire on their nickel in just a few years.

 

Anyhoo, the point of the article is there is going to be massive public works projects coming from this $4 billion influx in the coming years. How can we use it to make downtown a better place for decades to come?

 

The first answer -- by getting the jail out of downtown. Addition by subtraction.

 

Then move the courthouse and its thousands of workers and daily visitors to energize a new location.

 

Then, what do we do with the Justice Center campus which is going to be partially or wholly vacated? How do we reboot this site to help pivot downtown away from its dependency on the office market?

I got the feel from where your article headed, that the 3rd big one will be the expansion of the convention center. A building stretching from West 3rd, over Ontario, and connecting directly to the Med Mart building. With the existing JC being another directly attached convention hotel. 
 

That seems to be where the conversation is headed. I think it’d be fantastic.

4 hours ago, KJP said:

Nice of you guys to say, but no one wants to hire a 56-year-old so he can retire on their nickel 

Hey @KJP Did you somehow forget...?

On 12/19/2023 at 1:41 PM, LibertyBlvd said:

I'm surprised Bedrock's only courthouse proposal was the Landmark building.  The rendering for the riverview development shows several towers.  Maybe Rocket Mortgage will fill one of them.   Who will be filling all the others?  

 

Unknown.

 

I've heard that there are leasing conversations going on regarding the western half of the riverfront site.

 

BTW, the Uhaul truck was parked on the street next to Oklahoma City federal building, not below it.

 

A bigger threat is the massive quantities of hazardous materials rolling by on the adjacent railroad tracks.

 

Any railroad buff could tell you how easy it is to identify what is being shipped, where it is in real time and how to destroy it. 

6 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Unknown. I've heard that there are leasing conversations going on regarding the western half of the riverfront site.

 

BTW, the Uhaul truck was parked on the street next to Oklahoma City federal building, not below it. A bigger threat is the massive quantities of hazardous materials rolling by on the adjacent railroad tracks. Any railroad buff could tell you how easy it is to identify what is being shipped, where it is in real time and how to destroy it. 

 

All the more reason to reroute freight trains away from downtown. 

Edited December 19, 20231 yr by Mendo

5 hours ago, Mendo said:

 

All the more reason to reroute freight trains away from downtown. 

Yeah and then you can get a genius company like Abbott to build its whole distribution center there while it puts its offices in a much less dense location. Make that make sense. These cities have lost the plot on where large industrial operations belong.

Did a little more digging, under the U.S. Courts Design Guide, adopted by the Judicial Conference of the United States, public parking must be "adjacent to or outside the courthouse," while "Judges’ parking should be located in a totally enclosed area under the building."  

On 12/20/2023 at 1:47 PM, gruver said:

Did a little more digging, under the U.S. Courts Design Guide, adopted by the Judicial Conference of the United States, public parking must be "adjacent to or outside the courthouse," while "Judges’ parking should be located in a totally enclosed area under the building."  

 

The county courts would probably want to follow the US government’s lead.....

 

That said, employee parking under the building(s) might require taller buildings like this.... 

 

 

 

Cuyahoga County nears a courthouse decision
By Ken Prendergast / January 10, 2024

 

Cuyahoga County and its real estate consultant are getting closer to making a recommendation for a Consolidated Courthouse proposal in downtown Cleveland. NEOtrans has learned that one or more proposals were eliminated from further consideration in part because the timeline for delivering a new or renovated/expanded courthouse facility is apparently an overriding factor for county officials. In this era of high construction costs, the aphorism “time is money” couldn’t be more true.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2024/01/10/cuyahoga-county-nears-a-courthouse-decision/

Thanks @KJPCan we just stand this building up vertically? 

Edited January 11, 20241 yr by CleveFan

@CleveFan You'll have to ask @Geowizical. He knocked it over. 😉

How about a Sunday morning boomer?

 

Wait, that may not be something enjoyable! 

 

Let's do it. Hopefully it is not as bad as the Browns looking to build in Brook Park boomer.

 

County courthouse to have new address?

By Ken Prendergast / April 5, 2024

 

A Cuyahoga County committee has reportedly rejected all but one of the proposals that could have kept a Consolidated Courthouse at the current site of Downtown Cleveland's existing Justice Center. NEOtrans has learned that, of the four surviving proposals, one involves a complicated, time-consuming double-move of courthouse functions from the current site and back again. If rejected, it would end a five-decade run of the Justice Center site as a law enforcement, adjudication and penal facility and set the stage for its redevelopment.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2024/04/07/county-courthouse-to-have-new-address/

Thanks for the article Ken. At this point, l'm hoping Millennia gets the nod. As much as l want to see a shiny new courthouse tower l think saving the old Union Commerce building at 9th and Euclid is the way to go. That building and location are so important to the urbanity of downtown and because of it's unique lobby l think it will be very difficult to re-purpose. 

 

Like all of us here, just waiting for a decision.

On 4/7/2024 at 1:11 PM, cadmen said:

Like all of us here, just waiting for a decision.

 

Thanks.

 

Despite what Kelly says, they've made three decisions so far.

Article updated with more information.

 

The DBL proposal would renovate the tower as a courthouse but would have to find temporary courthouse space elsewhere during renovation.

 

It would move all of the courthouse functions twice and build a roughly 200,000-square-foot courthouse addition. 

I’ve never been in SHW’s current headquarters, though I’m sure the current office arrangements are far better than at the Justice Center. Large parts would likely be “move in” ready and wired with the latest tech, after they vacate to the tower. I could see that being appealing for a temporary relocation, cost wise. At least in part. 

18 hours ago, marty15 said:

I’ve never been in SHW’s current headquarters, though I’m sure the current office arrangements are far better than at the Justice Center. Large parts would likely be “move in” ready and wired with the latest tech, after they vacate to the tower. I could see that being appealing for a temporary relocation, cost wise. At least in part. 

You'd be surprised how many office areas are not actually "wired with the latest tech". 

whatever they do with the courthouse, i hope they take some of the sculptures and install them on Mall B

 

 

Edited April 30, 20241 yr by Whipjacka

Quote

9 hours ago, CleveFan said:
I think I can sneak this comment into this thread about what might be next - Is there any chance that the new Courthouse/Justice Center is an upright tower?  Or are they definitely committed to a low-rise structure?

 

 

Redirect from the Which Project Will Be Next thread....

 

Only one proposal was submitted for an all-new courthouse structure -- the TurnDev site at The Pit. If it is built here, the size of the site suggests it will not be a high-rise.

 

The DBL Development plan will have to add a roughly 218,000-square-foot building to provide enough space to meet the county's needs, in addition to renovating the existing courthouse tower.

 

But unless they build it as a 22-story skinny tall with 10,000-square-foot floorplates, or as a 10-story-tall building (with 22,000-square-foot floor plates) atop a massive parking garage, there won't be a new tower built.

 

https://neo-trans.blog/2024/04/07/county-courthouse-to-have-new-address/

58 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Redirect from the Which Project Will Be Next thread....

 

Only one proposal was submitted for an all-new courthouse structure -- the TurnDev site at The Pit. If it is built here, the size of the site suggests it will not be a high-rise.

 

The DBL Development plan will have to add a roughly 218,000-square-foot building to provide enough space to meet the county's needs, in addition to renovating the existing courthouse tower. But unless they build it as a 22-story skinny tall with 10,000-square-foot floorplates, or as a 10-story-tall building (with 22,000-square-foot floor plates) atop a massive parking garage, there won't be a new tower built.

 

https://neo-trans.blog/2024/04/07/county-courthouse-to-have-new-address/

Still hard to get my head around a 900K Sq Ft complex that doesn't involve going tall.

I sure hope that the folks deciding on the courthouse tower read some of the stories about SHW and decide not do make the same mistake and to build taller from the start.

On 5/21/2024 at 8:48 AM, KJP said:

 

Redirect from the Which Project Will Be Next thread....

 

Only one proposal was submitted for an all-new courthouse structure -- the TurnDev site at The Pit. If it is built here, the size of the site suggests it will not be a high-rise.

 

The DBL Development plan will have to add a roughly 218,000-square-foot building to provide enough space to meet the county's needs, in addition to renovating the existing courthouse tower. But unless they build it as a 22-story skinny tall with 10,000-square-foot floorplates, or as a 10-story-tall building (with 22,000-square-foot floor plates) atop a massive parking garage, there won't be a new tower built.

 

https://neo-trans.blog/2024/04/07/county-courthouse-to-have-new-address/

Gee, I hope that isn't the plan the run with. The site is interesting, but that unofficial massing is horrid. Downtown has too many short, bulky buildings. 

The new-build site is potentially 7 acres -- and could be more depending on what is done with the Shoreway. 7 acres is 304,920 square feet. The RFP seeks 893,120 square feet (plus parking). While I don't think a three-story building is in the offing (and not just because of the parking), there's no reason to spend so much of taxpayers' money to go tall when so much land is available. Cities build high-rises more so for economic and geographic reasons and less so for pride.

IMO a vertical arrangement is inefficient for a massive urban courts and justice building, so it  should only be constructed as a skyscraper if absolutely necessary.

 

Users of this building will have no interest in a shimmering tower when they have to use it(!)  Maybe our Solomon-like judges who would love a tower, thanks to the separate elevators they'd use to their offices in the sky with commanding views over the city and lake.

 

Juries, judges, police & security, attorneys, housekeeping, clerks, wedding couples... will be loathe to wait, then ride in elevators crowded with their peers plus the families of the prosecution and defense.  A series of separate elevators for prisoners is another additional expense & use of space and time to avoid if possible.

 

Long elevator waits  prior to assembly, lunch, and departure made me hate the extant Justice Center.

Remember, many people will enter and exit this building at the same time, making elevators a significant annoyance.

 

😍 A broad and low, elegantly sculpted building along the lakefront on the bluffs could also be seen as successful as any skyscraper.

 

• Take a look at these successful low and broad structures to get a sense of success with a different form.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 24, 20241 yr by ExPatClevGuy

 

Courthouse site decision still months away
By Ken Prendergast / July 27, 2024

 

Should it stay or should it go? That’s the question about the location of Cuyahoga County’s Consolidated Courthouse facilities which could lead to one of the largest and most expensive real estate projects in Greater Cleveland. But county officials don’t appear to be in a hurry to answer that question, according to a source who spoke to NEOtrans on the condition of anonymity.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2024/07/27/courthouse-site-decision-still-months-away/