^  Watching this process is like watching a really bad episode of "House Hunters" or "Love It or List It".  Which will they choose?

Edited July 27, 2024Jul 27 by urb-a-saurus

The Centennial would be a big shot in the arm for the heart of downtown at the corner of Main & Main!

Of the four options, the only one I have a negative opinion of is the landmark building. I was, and am, looking forward to that being converted to residential. I remember one of the Sherwin execs saying something along the lines of, some of the features that made it non ideal as an office space, will work well for residential. Is the same likely to be true of courthouse use? 

14 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Courthouse site decision still months away
By Ken Prendergast / July 27, 2024

 

Should it stay or should it go? That’s the question about the location of Cuyahoga County’s Consolidated Courthouse facilities which could lead to one of the largest and most expensive real estate projects in Greater Cleveland. But county officials don’t appear to be in a hurry to answer that question, according to a source who spoke to NEOtrans on the condition of anonymity.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2024/07/27/courthouse-site-decision-still-months-away/

 

Just a little bump since my post was the last one on the previous page 🙂

Not that my opinion matters but after careful consideration, lol, l am hoping that the Centennial building is chosen for the new courthouse. I say that because l'm afraid we will lose the building due to the difficulty in re-purposing it for residential and retail. As beautiful and amazing as the L shaped lobby is its very grandure makes it extremely  difficult to find a way for it to pay for itself. But that same lobby makes for a perfect use as the entrance for a new courthouse. Absolutely ideal. Sure, in a perfect world the building gets turned into a great residential space along with successful retail but l'm afraid that won't happen and we d**k around until it faces the wrecking ball. 

 

So let's just call it a day with all the hopes and prayers and turn it into a courthouse. At the very least doing so would greatly enliven 9th & Euclid again and save one of Cleveland's grand dames in the process.

The city and the county have a lot on their plates now with lakefront, riverfront, and stadium projects.  If it were me in charge, I'd buff up the worst problems at the current Justice Center and wait ten years to rebuild. Maybe the jail has to happen, but the rest can wait, your honor.

Is the .25% county sales tax which county council extended funding the new jail AND justice center or just the jail?

37 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Is the .25% county sales tax which county council extended funding the new jail AND justice center or just the jail?

 

Both, as well as the Board of Elections' new building. I forgot to note in yesterday's article that a private developer could build/renovate the courthouse and the county could sign a lease-to-purchase like it did with the county administration building.

This story is getting cobwebs. Any news KJP?

I hope the Browns and shore- to-core-to-shore focus is not impacting the decisions on it.  Would be good to have that block on the table for development if they can move those functions elsewhere.

maybe Geis can value-engineer a new justice center in order to get it done on a budget.

925 euclid still gets my vote. the increasingly dilapidated huntington building is really dragging down an almost vibrant corner 

Yes, that building is turning out to be Cleveland's White Whale.

8 hours ago, Whipjacka said:

925 euclid still gets my vote. the increasingly dilapidated huntington building is really dragging down an almost vibrant corner 

It also puts the courts close to County HQ if that counts for anything.  

If it comes down to saving the building or not then using it for the new courts building may actually be a great idea. One of the biggest problems for the building is how to give that great lobby a functional use. Well using it as a courthouse lobby would seem to me a great option. And all that foot traffic wouldn't hurt the corner either.

 

What l'm not sure about is would the courts need all the space? If not, can the unused part still be converted to housing? And if so, how would you separate access for both? Interesting possibilities though. Anything to save that great building.

1 hour ago, cadmen said:

If it comes down to saving the building or not then using it for the new courts building may actually be a great idea. One of the biggest problems for the building is how to give that great lobby a functional use. Well using it as a courthouse lobby would seem to me a great option. And all that foot traffic wouldn't hurt the corner either.

 

What l'm not sure about is would the courts need all the space? If not, can the unused part still be converted to housing? And if so, how would you separate access for both? Interesting possibilities though. Anything to save that great building.

The builidng could easily be carved up with separate entrances for each dedicated use, but I fear if used solely for the courts that corner will still look as desolate after 5 PM as it does empty.  I wish it was a block east so maybe then Millenia could sell to Playhouse Square (and transfer all grants and awards) to develop with their new leaders from the commercial real estate industry.  Maybe there is an entertainment angle they can pursue and extend the district west a few blocks and add a 2nd chandelier at 9th and Euclid.  This corner is too important and needs a lot of creativity as it appears Millenia has fizzled out while focusing on their business/legal woes.

Jail Site Plan discussion starts about here: 

 

 

Four stories seems to be the goal/max height for the entire complex.

Responding to a question posed at the CPD HQ thread....

 

42 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Has there been any discussion about what will happen to the current police HQ after they move?  

 

There is one only submitted proposal for the county courthouse that involves the existing Justice Center site. I haven't seen it. While I would like to see this nasty building demolished (having been inside it many times to pick up police reports for Sun), it's not necessary. Why? The existing CPD HQ is 293,197 square feet. The existing courthouse tower is 675,887 square feet. That's 969,081 square feet total. The county courthouse RFP is for 893,120 square feet. So the combined total of the existing office buildings onsite exceed the county's requirements by 75,961 square feet.

 

The question is, can the floor layouts of the CPD HQ be changed structurally and affordably to meet the county's needs? If so, it could play a role in the preferred courthouse vision -- if the respondent is proposing it, and if county chooses this option.

I cannot believe they’ve dragged out the new courthouse this long…

Edited October 29, 2024Oct 29 by Enginerd

2 hours ago, KJP said:

Responding to a question posed at the CPD HQ thread....

 

 

There is one only submitted proposal for the county courthouse that involves the existing Justice Center site. I haven't seen it. While I would like to see this nasty building demolished (having been inside it many times to pick up police reports for Sun), it's not necessary. Why? The existing CPD HQ is 293,197 square feet. The existing courthouse tower is 675,887 square feet. That's 969,081 square feet total. The county courthouse RFP is for 893,120 square feet. So the combined total of the existing office buildings onsite exceed the county's requirements by 75,961 square feet.

 

The question is, can the floor layouts of the CPD HQ be changed structurally and affordably to meet the county's needs? If so, it could play a role in the preferred courthouse vision -- if the respondent is proposing it, and if county chooses this option.

You probably would have to first Chernobyl the entire block to evict legendary roaches, mice, rats etc., that have burrowed into the walls and basements over the decades. 

Isn't the existing courthouse also quite nasty and too costly to renovate? Maybe the most logical thing would be to demolish the existing police HQ (once the new one is completed) and build a new courthouse on that site.  That way, it remains on property the county already owns. Then demolish the existing courthouse and jail (once the new one is completed) and sell the property for redevelopment.

 

Edited October 30, 2024Oct 30 by LibertyBlvd

18 hours ago, Willo said:

You probably would have to first Chernobyl the entire block to evict legendary roaches, mice, rats etc., that have burrowed into the walls and basements over the decades. 

…further - if we can clean this infested superblock maybe we can drop out of Orkin’s top 10 list of U.S. Rattiest cities. Unfortunately in this poll we beat C-bus (17) and Cinci (34). https://www.orkin.com/press-room/top-rodent-infested-cities-2024
 

 

Why can't the County make up their mind already about the location of the Justice Center?

Do we even need one? Full WFH for employees, remote court proceedings, and ankle bracelets/house arrest for criminals could be an option.

 

Expand the Juvenile Justice Center or have a separate, smaller facility for high risk offenders. 

2 minutes ago, TBideon said:

Do we even need one? Full WFH for employees, remote court proceedings, and ankle bracelets/house arrest for criminals could be an option.

 

Expand the Juvenile Justice Center or have a separate, smaller facility for high risk offenders. 

I find it hard to believe that there would be no beneficial psychological impact of being in a courtroom vs. being in court "via Zoom."

24 minutes ago, TBideon said:

Do we even need one? Full WFH for employees, remote court proceedings, and ankle bracelets/house arrest for criminals could be an option.

 

Expand the Juvenile Justice Center or have a separate, smaller facility for high risk offenders. 

Why would you expand the Juvenile Justice Center? 

More and more employers are abandoning WFH as are many workers, especially those who are sociable and enjoy being around other people, like to get promoted and be paid more. Criminals need to be punished. Staying at home, getting drunk/high, being around family/friends/lovers, playing video games or otherwise goofing off all day at the government's expense doesn't exactly sound like a deterrence to crime. Judges and campaign-contributing lawyers want nice courtrooms and offices to work in. And county judges are some of the most politically powerful people in any metro area. They are going to get most of what they want.

^ Not to mention the constitutional requirements.  Even during the pandemic, in-person court proceedings continued, and the limited exceptions to that were quickly lifted after the pandemic because open courts are required.  I would add that the multi-billion dollar enterprise that is our local legal system deserves a headquarters too.   The legal industry in Cleveland (like health care) punches well above its weight nationally, but (apart from the federal courthouse), is basically centered around a dirty toilet bowl. 

Edited October 30, 2024Oct 30 by gruver

Latest Jail design discussion from yesterday: 

 

 

Is the jail site in Garfield Heights a done deal?  With all the vacant land in Cleveland and apparently more land about to become available, maybe there is a chance it could remain in Cleveland.

2 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Is the jail site in Garfield Heights a done deal?

 

Yes. Also worth noting that County Council is pretty fed up with the delays they've had to deal with due to scrapping the Transport Rd. site. 

 

Also, re: putting it in Cleveland - there was a lot of resident outcry when they proposed putting in Slavic Village, I'm sure any other vacant site in Cleveland would be an issue with folks.

Edited November 12, 2024Nov 12 by GISguy
edited st name

22 minutes ago, GISguy said:

 

Yes. Also worth noting that County Council is pretty fed up with the delays they've had to deal with due to scrapping the Transportation Rd. site. 

 

Also, re: putting it in Cleveland - there was a lot of resident outcry when they proposed putting in Slavic Village, I'm sure any other vacant site in Cleveland would be an issue with folks.

There has been so much drama regarding this project that I forget what happened when and why, but wasn’t the scrapping of the transportation Road site due to the opposition of county council? Aren’t they basically responsible for the delays?

34 minutes ago, GISguy said:

Yes. Also worth noting that County Council is pretty fed up with the delays they've had to deal with due to scrapping the Transportation Rd. site. 

I assume you mean Transport Rd. in Cleveland.

 

36 minutes ago, GISguy said:

Also, re: putting it in Cleveland - there was a lot of resident outcry when they proposed putting in Slavic Village, I'm sure any other vacant site in Cleveland would be an issue with folks.

I doubt the folks in Garfield Heights are very happy about a jail in their neighborhood.

 

1 hour ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Is the jail site in Garfield Heights a done deal?  With all the vacant land in Cleveland and apparently more land about to become available, maybe there is a chance it could remain in Cleveland.

 

Yes, even though it would result in a greater economic impact loss to the cuty of Cleveland than the Browns going to Brook Park. We're talking more than 1,000 well-paid workers.

6 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Yes, even though it would result in a greater economic impact loss to the cuty of Cleveland than the Browns going to Brook Park. We're talking more than 1,000 well-paid workers.

The St Vincent site should be on the table. You’re fighting for 1000 good paying jobs. We switched up the PD HQ late in the game, why not try?

13 hours ago, marty15 said:

The St Vincent site should be on the table. You’re fighting for 1000 good paying jobs. We switched up the PD HQ late in the game, why not try?

That's not a bad idea. 

 

I was kind of hoping for somewhere along the Opportunity Corridor, ideally close to the Juvenile Detention Center. Although the city may never live down 2 prisons on the OC...

 

I think having it on or near a rapid line is very important. Like it or not, most of the people visiting prisoners are also living in poverty and statistically are not likely to have access to a car. Moving it away from easy transit access will hurt these families even more. 

13 hours ago, marty15 said:

The St Vincent site should be on the table. You’re fighting for 1000 good paying jobs. We switched up the PD HQ late in the game, why not try?

 

They're already in the hole on the Garfield site. They've purchased the land and are in the middle of designing the campus out there. Council publicly laments how much delays have added to the project. Also, they want the new jail to be as close to 1-2 stories as possible (height is creeping up a bit at Garfield) and more of a campus setting that wouldn't be able to be achieved at this site.

 

19 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said:

I assume you mean Transport Rd. in Cleveland.

 

I doubt the folks in Garfield Heights are very happy about a jail in their neighborhood.

 

 

Yep, Transport, my mistake.

 

Also there's no neighborhood in Garfield- it was eminent domained 15 years ago, looking back on the history of the site and the city's financial troubles the mayor and residents are welcoming it with open arms.

 

There was talks of the SV site being either the jail or a landswap for the container yard (the latter use was later deemed acceptable by the councilwoman). The neighborhood is still downwind of 77 and the steel plant, but I can't blame them for pushing back, also the ingress/egress points would most likely have to go through the neighborhood in one way or another.

 

 

 

For comparison, here's the Garfield site at the same scale.

20 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said:

I assume you mean Transport Rd. in Cleveland.

 

I doubt the folks in Garfield Heights are very happy about a jail in their neighborhood.

 

I am sure some are obviously against it but Garfield Hts officials fought tooth and nail to get it.

I'm not quite sure what @GISguy means by "no neighborhood" in Garfield Heights. I am a former GH resident so I am familiar with the area. Homes, businesses and a grocery store are very close to that property. Those GH officials must be happy about 1,000 good paying jobs coming to their city. By the way, the view from the GH site it quite spectacular, but I doubt the inmates will be able to enjoy it, or see it.

 

Edited November 13, 2024Nov 13 by LibertyBlvd

2 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said:

I'm not quite sure what @GISguy means by "no neighborhood" in Garfield Heights. I am a former GH resident so I am familiar with the area. Homes, businesses and a grocery store are very close to that property. Those GH officials must be happy about 1,000 good paying jobs coming to their city. By the way, the view from the GH site it quite spectacular, but I doubt the inmates will be able to enjoy it, or see it.

 

 

I was typing quick, so my apologies but my point was that this specific site hasn't had a neighborhood on it since ~2006 prior to the city using eminent domain to demolish the few roads that were back in there. In my opinion it's serving as a county bailout for that failed plan. The way that they're designing the jail, I think most people using the businesses on Transportation will have very little clue of what's in that building and as far as residential goes, it's .25 miles as the crow flies from any houses, and they're separated by two 5 lane roads in each direction. 

 

Neighborhood in 2006, prior to demolition (there's some good reading on archived UO threads..):

 

All that said, I'm with you on the views, it's a shame that nothing else could go in there. Here's some photos from last year. 

 

 

 

 

(They're planning on repurposing this Aldi into a sheriff training center)

 

 

Edited November 13, 2024Nov 13 by GISguy

6 hours ago, GISguy said:

 

I was typing quick, so my apologies but my point was that this specific site hasn't had a neighborhood on it since ~2006 prior to the city using eminent domain to demolish the few roads that were back in there. In my opinion it's serving as a county bailout for that failed plan. The way that they're designing the jail, I think most people using the businesses on Transportation will have very little clue of what's in that building and as far as residential goes, it's .25 miles as the crow flies from any houses, and they're separated by two 5 lane roads in each direction. 

 

Neighborhood in 2006, prior to demolition (there's some good reading on archived UO threads..):

 

All that said, I'm with you on the views, it's a shame that nothing else could go in there. Here's some photos from last year. 

 

 

 

 

(They're planning on repurposing this Aldi into a sheriff training center)

 

 

Seems peaceful and more conducive to rehab than the concrete torture tower downtown - if you have not seen the inside please take a tour and you will conclude you would not wish it on your enemies let alone the brave corrections and treatment staff. They deserve a mondern safe environment as much as the prisoners - please stop the delays and just get this done for society's sake.  

Redirected....

18 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

What is amazing is after all this time and alleged analysis, still no word where it is going to end up.  Indeed there has been radio silence for a long time in connection with even where they are in the process of site selection.  In the meantime.  Tick Tick Tick.  Costs just keep going up.

 

I asked Ronayne about it and he said the courthouse candidate sites will be narrowed down to probably two in Q2.

20 minutes ago, KJP said:

Redirected....

 

I asked Ronayne about it and he said the courthouse candidate sites will be narrowed down to probably two in Q2.

So then there will still be more time to wait while they decide which of those two locations to use.

 

I hope the delay is being caused by some plan that is better than any of us expected and the delay and radio silence is because they are putting this deal together. 

 

Who knows... and that's the problem!

I thought they already narrowed down sites several months ago.

2 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said:

I thought they already narrowed down sites several months ago.

 

They did. Three were tossed, leaving four. Two more are likely to be rejected. So two finalists will compete.

3 hours ago, KJP said:

the courthouse candidate sites will be narrowed down to probably two in Q2

Q2 is next week!  Hopefully they meant the beginning of Q2.

And then they will spend an eternity deliberating over the two sites. 

What if they’re now waiting on the fate of the Celebreze building? It’s clearly been kept in top shape. 

1 hour ago, marty15 said:

What if they’re now waiting on the fate of the Celebreze building? It’s clearly been kept in top shape. 

Would hate for this to derail the already lengthy search for a new Justice Center but it may be worth a quick look-see if the Feds are serious about vacating it for smaller footprints elsewhere. The 1.4 million sq feet or so of large plated floors (mezzanine level plus garage) may easily absorb the many courtrooms and support chambers/offices the demanding judges allegedly want. If GSA would transfer title to the County just to unload it - and given the County’s growing list of expensive needs - the County should jump at the chance if it could realistically be repurposed for significantly less than a new build elsewhere or rehab of the existing block. Plus it sounds like it has had significant mechanicals upgraded as part of the recent $100 million+ rehab including the innovative second skin. While we have preferred a Geis-like economical and functional new build, in order to be certain of the best decision why not kick the tires on this possible new wildcard option Mr. Ronayne?

On 11/13/2024 at 12:50 PM, GISguy said:

 

I was typing quick, so my apologies but my point was that this specific site hasn't had a neighborhood on it since ~2006 prior to the city using eminent domain to demolish the few roads that were back in there. In my opinion it's serving as a county bailout for that failed plan. 

 

This is one of the most accurate opinions ever posted here.   I still lived in Maple Heights when they were doing all this.  The city trashed this project and doomed the one where Walmart was through atrocious planning.   The methane was the main thing there, but refusing to connect the access road to Rockside at the behest of Turney Road businesses had close to the same impact.  

 

As poorly taking sides goes, it ranks up there with Cleveland siding with the parking lot lobby about Progressive's desire to put integral parking in their proposed downtown tower.

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/10/31/county-courthouse-project-gets-seven-proposals/

 

Weas there ever any more information or renderings released about the DBL proposal to recreate various historic Cleveland buildings? I would love to know more about that even though they were eliminated. Maybe someone else around town can pick up part of that idea. 

On 11/13/2024 at 12:50 PM, GISguy said:

 

I was typing quick, so my apologies but my point was that this specific site hasn't had a neighborhood on it since ~2006 prior to the city using eminent domain to demolish the few roads that were back in there. In my opinion it's serving as a county bailout for that failed plan. The way that they're designing the jail, I think most people using the businesses on Transportation will have very little clue of what's in that building and as far as residential goes, it's .25 miles as the crow flies from any houses, and they're separated by two 5 lane roads in each direction. 

 

Neighborhood in 2006, prior to demolition (there's some good reading on archived UO threads..):

 

All that said, I'm with you on the views, it's a shame that nothing else could go in there. Here's some photos from last year. 

 

 

 

 

(They're planning on repurposing this Aldi into a sheriff training center)

 

 

Wait, is there actually an abandoned Aldi in a grass field?