Does anyone know whether the JC was built on a slab or if they drilled down to bedrock?  If the latter, would that make the site more economically feasible for a new tower?  They would have to drill the holes again, right?

 

I think it was built on caissons because when the Portal public art piece was set outside of it, critics said it looked like someone found a use for a leftover caisson from the building's construction. But since we're talking about a courts building, that's pretty circumstantial evidence. ;)

 

I personally think it would be a terrible idea to rebuild a new complex on the same site. Having two jails on the fringe of your up and coming entertainment districts makes sense from an intimidation standpoint but outside of that it just looks bad especially to tourists. When I tell my out of town and state friends here at Kent that Cleveland has two 10 story jails downtown they are taken back. I believe having it on the fringes of downtown or in a less obvious or prominent area would be better.

 

Does that stop them from coming downtown? Putting the jail on the fringe of downtown adds a lot of transportation costs and security issues for moving inmates back-n-forth to the courts. And taking the courts out of the heart of downtown means a lot of law offices, restaurants, etc. will likely leave the heart of downtown too. And they come downtown for work everyday and eat in restaurants downtown more often than you or your friends do, I suspect.

I understand your argument about the law offices but I still feel as though the complex should move, I actually like the idea of putting it next to the courthouse that was mentioned earlier. Your comment about eating downtown is true for a few months out of the year but I frequently visit, shop and eat downtown. All I'm saying is that is an area that has a lot of potential. The new convention center and hotel behind it, the flats around the corner, the Warehouse district in across from it as well as the lots that aren't built on. The justice center creates a huge dead zone in that area and blocks progress. All I'm saying is shift the complex to an area of downtown designated for complex's such as the Justice Center such as the aforementioned Federal Courthouse by Tower City.

I personally think it would be a terrible idea to rebuild a new complex on the same site. Having two jails on the fringe of your up and coming entertainment districts makes sense from an intimidation standpoint but outside of that it just looks bad especially to tourists. When I tell my out of town and state friends here at Kent that Cleveland has two 10 story jails downtown they are taken back. I believe having it on the fringes of downtown or in a less obvious or prominent area would be better.

 

Cleveland is not unique in having an ugly jail tower in the downtown area. Just do an image search for 'downtown jails'. Problem is they all look the same, a fortress like structure with small windows and very little street presence.  I would keep the jail downtown if it  didn't have to look like a jail. Why can't it look like the Hilton for example, lots of glass, atrium with public spaces.

I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet on here that moving the JC out of this location might devalue the surface lots in the WHD..... at least as it pertains to their value as surface lots.  After the garage was torn down on Ontario to make room for the MM and a portion of the Huntington garage was dedicated for the Hilton, the value of those lots as lots probably went up.  Weren't those lots created in the first place to serve the JC?

 

I personally think it would be a terrible idea to rebuild a new complex on the same site. Having two jails on the fringe of your up and coming entertainment districts makes sense from an intimidation standpoint but outside of that it just looks bad especially to tourists. When I tell my out of town and state friends here at Kent that Cleveland has two 10 story jails downtown they are taken back. I believe having it on the fringes of downtown or in a less obvious or prominent area would be better.

 

Cleveland is not unique in having an ugly jail tower in the downtown area. Just do an image search for 'downtown jails'. Problem is they all look the same, a fortress like structure with small windows and very little street presence.  I would keep the jail downtown if it  didn't have to look like a jail. Why can't it look like the Hilton for example, lots of glass, atrium with public spaces.

Never said that we were the only city that had one nor did I say move it from downtown. As mentioned in my previous post to KJP I said that it blocks progress in the area that it is by creating such a dead zone in areas with entertainment districts surrounding it. I believe that placing it in an area that has similarities to it such as the federal courthouse would be better. Of course the building can look beautiful, will it? That is something we can only hope for.

I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet on here that moving the JC out of this location might devalue the surface lots in the WHD..... at least as it pertains to their value as surface lots.  After the garage was torn down on Ontario to make room for the MM and a portion of the Huntington garage was dedicated for the Hilton, the value of those lots as lots probably went up.  Weren't those lots created in the first place to serve the JC?

 

Yep. That's also part of the reason why I proposed a multi-level parking deck as part of my concept a few posts earlier. The fact that the existing Justice Center was built without a parking structure for the public is a big reason why many of those Warehouse District buildings were razed for parking lots. All one has to do is look at how many buildings were demolished for parking before 1974 vs after.

 

BTW, I think by putting a transit center on the ground floor and a public parking deck above it means the Justice Center would not be a dead zone outside of courthouse hours. It would be a 24-hour facility, especially with some transit-supportive businesses (24-hour diner, convenience store, etc) as part of the transit center.

I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet on here that moving the JC out of this location might devalue the surface lots in the WHD..... at least as it pertains to their value as surface lots.  After the garage was torn down on Ontario to make room for the MM and a portion of the Huntington garage was dedicated for the Hilton, the value of those lots as lots probably went up.  Weren't those lots created in the first place to serve the JC?

 

Yep. That's also part of the reason why I proposed a multi-level parking deck as part of my concept a few posts earlier. The fact that the existing Justice Center was built without a parking structure for the public is a big reason why many of those Warehouse District buildings were razed for parking lots. All one has to do is look at how many buildings were demolished for parking before 1974 vs after.

 

BTW, I think by putting a transit center on the ground floor and a public parking deck above it means the Justice Center would not be a dead zone outside of courthouse hours. It would be a 24-hour facility, especially with some transit-supportive businesses (24-hour diner, convenience store, etc) as part of the transit center.

 

Having transit access is crucial--which is another argument for NOT moving it out of downtown, where all points RTA connect.  Many employees, plaintiffs and defendants all rely on transit to get to the courts, have meetings with lawyers, visit loved ones, post bonds, etc.    Moving it away from central downtown will severely lower the transit access.

^I don't know if that means these facilities have to be within a few blocks of Public Square necessarily, but transit access should be a big consideration.

Location: build on Superior between West 3rd and West 6th.

First level (20-foot clearance, except taller glassy "winter garden" atrium at corner of Superior and West 3rd): covered transit center with climate controlled waiting area, 24-hour diner and convenience store. Pedestrian walkway under Superior into Tower City Center rail station.

Levels 2-10 multi-story parking garage (all vehicular entrances off Frankfort, except buses which enter/exit from both West 3rd and West 6th mid-block)

Levels 11-13 Cleveland Police Division offices

Levels 14-15 jury processing, offices, waiting area, cafeteria

West Tower levels 15-25: County Civil/domestic/appeals court rooms, judge/magistrate offices + municipal court rooms, judge/magistrate offices, support facilities, etc.

East Tower levels 15-39: County criminal court rooms/jury rooms/offices, Cuyahoga County Sherrif's offices, Cuyahoga county jail

 

Or something like that.

 

EDIT: I took the West Side Transit Center massing and made this rough concept out of it, based on the above...

 

Justice Center-Transit Center1s by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

Here's a graphic from the West Side Transit Center study:

Westside-transit-center-elevation1 by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

Providing a seamless, more direct pedestrian connection between the rail station at Tower City and a new transit center (gets more buses off Public Square!) plus the overhead uses:

West Side Transit Ctr-TCaccess1 by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

More detail on the pedestrian linkage showing an old floor plan of the Terminal Group:

West Side Transit Ctr-TCaccess2s by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

Totally endorse this. This would probably be the best possible outcome. And as long as there's s couple of diners or something there, it keeps the foot traffic. Please pitch this to the county!

^ Building off of vague, off-the-record comments, Freddy Collier was speaking to my class the other day, and he said to look out for a "very exciting" announcement regarding downtown within the next few days. No idea what that could mean, though.

 

So I guess the Justice Center replacement was the big announcement for this week, since this week is now over.

 

 

Totally endorse this. This would probably be the best possible outcome. And as long as there's s couple of diners or something there, it keeps the foot traffic. Please pitch this to the county!

 

Upon further review, I think I'd like to switch the towers -- put the taller jail tower at West 6th and Superior and the shorter court tower at West 3rd and Superior. There's three reasons why. First, the court tower would produce more foot traffic and I'd want that closer to Public Square.

 

Second, when a tower is built on the Jacobs lot, if symmetry and marketing matters then I think it should be at least as tall as the closest Justice Center tower. Putting jail tower of 30+ stories next to the Jacobs lot puts more pressure on the developer of the Jacobs lot to build a tower at least as tall as the jail tower. I can hear it now -- so my corporate headquarters on Public Square can't muster enough floors to out-shine the neighboring jail?

 

And third, I don't like having two 30+ story towers right next to each other if I can avoid it. If there's going to be two 30+ story towers, I'd like the other one to be a little farther away to spread the skyline out a bit. There's also a marketing issue to this. If I'm trying to sell space in a Jacobs lot tower, I'd want a view. Putting a smaller court tower next it means the upper floors of a taller Jacobs tower will have a view. It's not like the inmates of the jail tower need a view, although being so high up in the tower also means security and protection from escape attempts.

I dunno. I have heard from a few people of things in the works. Nothing confirmed, but 'a commercial tower' of sorts and someone working for an architect saying he was working on 'a few' large downtown projects. Neither is a reliable source, so don't take my word for it.

Justice Center Debate Returns: Renovate or Build Anew? via @ericsandy

http://t.co/IjCHSybW28 http://t.co/HOSsz5qsU6

Hope they move it to the E. 18th and Superior area.

Hope they move it to the E. 18th and Superior area.

Why that area specifically? Is it because that is where downtown immediately drops off and could use some height?

18th & Superior:  Yes, downtown immediately drops off near E. 12th and could use some height.  The other downtown sites mentioned will eventually get developed anyway.  While the area near Superior and east of E. 12th could use a serious shot in the arm.  Plus we don't need these facilities in the middle of a growing residential area.

18th & Superior:  Yes, downtown immediately drops off near E. 12th and could use some height.  The other downtown sites mentioned will eventually get developed anyway.  While the area near Superior and east of E. 12th could use a serious shot in the arm.  Plus we don't need these facilities in the middle of a growing residential area.

 

We do need them near to the center of our transit system and current legal offices, which is much closer to the existing site.

18th & Superior:  Yes, downtown immediately drops off near E. 12th and could use some height.  The other downtown sites mentioned will eventually get developed anyway.  While the area near Superior and east of E. 12th could use a serious shot in the arm.  Plus we don't need these facilities in the middle of a growing residential area.

 

E 12th & Superior is right at the Zaremba development...  or whatever is left of it

18th & Superior:  Yes, downtown immediately drops off near E. 12th and could use some height.  The other downtown sites mentioned will eventually get developed anyway.  While the area near Superior and east of E. 12th could use a serious shot in the arm.  Plus we don't need these facilities in the middle of a growing residential area.

 

We do need them near to the center of our transit system and current legal offices, which is much closer to the existing site.

 

That was my first impression too, but 12th isn't far from there on foot and 18th is reasonable.  This could even generate some spinoff development nearby.

KJP[/member] 's suggestion of the WSTC site is a good idea but I think there would be a lot of resistance from people about that being to close to Public Square.

 

 

We do have an abundance of parking lots in the WD, so I think anywhere there would be the best general location. And since the jail on the corner of St. Clair and W 3rd is relatively new, that MIGHT still be salvageable (but I'm just guessing). Presuming it is still useful, then it would make sense to build near there say directly across the street on the NW corner and even the megalot on the SW corner.

 

 

(Pardon my very rough rendering)

I guess that is kind of close to PS too, huh?

 

Oh well, just a thought

18th & Superior:  Yes, downtown immediately drops off near E. 12th and could use some height.  The other downtown sites mentioned will eventually get developed anyway.  While the area near Superior and east of E. 12th could use a serious shot in the arm.  Plus we don't need these facilities in the middle of a growing residential area.

 

The area of 18th and Superior is also a growing residential area.  Lots of artists live in the Superior Avenue Loft district.  Plus as someone noted Zaremba's Avenue District planned townhomes (I think I saw on this forum the designs just went to planning commission) are here as well. 

18th & Superior:  Yes, downtown immediately drops off near E. 12th and could use some height.  The other downtown sites mentioned will eventually get developed anyway.  While the area near Superior and east of E. 12th could use a serious shot in the arm.  Plus we don't need these facilities in the middle of a growing residential area.

 

The area of 18th and Superior is also a growing residential area.  Lots of artists live in the Superior Avenue Loft district.  Plus as someone noted Zaremba's Avenue District planned townhomes (I think I saw on this forum the designs just went to planning commission) are here as well. 

 

True. No need to put this thing in Siberia just because it's a hideous, street killer in its current incarnation. The facility generates a lot of traffic; lots of people who would be supporting surrounding businesses. 

The courthouse should (and my strong guess is definitely will) be in the downtown core.  Downtown is the heart of the county.  It's where public transportation converges.  It's where the lawyers are, who make a large portion of the tenants in our remaining non-converted office buildings.  Lawyers want to walk to court.  Judges want to walk to lunch.  And of course, lawyers and judges are politically connected. 

 

Just because the Justice Center is ugly, doesn't mean its next incarnation will be.  Courthouses are a traditional fixture of downtowns, in both large cities and small towns.  In fact, I would welcome a well-designed courthouse on Public Square over the long-empty Jacobs lot.  Not only would that be a return to the courthouse's original location, I suspect it would dispel many a person's fears about the safety of Public Square. 

The courthouse should (and my strong guess is definitely will) be in the downtown core.  Downtown is the heart of the county.  It's where public transportation converges.  It's where the lawyers are, who make a large portion of the tenants in our remaining non-converted office buildings.  Lawyers want to walk to court.  Judges want to walk to lunch.  And of course, lawyers and judges are politically connected. 

 

Just because the Justice Center is ugly, doesn't mean its next incarnation will be.  Courthouses are a traditional fixture of downtowns, in both large cities and small towns.  In fact, I would welcome a well-designed courthouse on Public Square over the long-empty Jacobs lot.  Not only would that be a return to the courthouse's original location, I suspect it would dispel many a person's fears about the safety of Public Square.

 

Great post

There would be some amount of poetic justice if the new court was built on the parking lots nearby.  Most of those surface lots were warehouses until the new Justice Center drove up the demand for surface parking.

There would be some amount of poetic justice if the new court was built on the parking lots nearby.  Most of those surface lots were warehouses until the new Justice Center drove up the demand for surface parking.

 

For some reason the Justice Center had no parking deck built within it or otherwise part of its construction. If they build a new one, a parking deck must be part of it -- and hopefully the Justice Center is built on top of it to give it more height! ;) Of course, I want a transit center built below that parking deck.

There would be some amount of poetic justice if the new court was built on the parking lots nearby.  Most of those surface lots were warehouses until the new Justice Center drove up the demand for surface parking.

 

For some reason the Justice Center had no parking deck built within it or otherwise part of its construction. If they build a new one, a parking deck must be part of it -- and hopefully the Justice Center is built on top of it to give it more height! ;) Of course, I want a transit center built below that parking deck.

 

Now that would truly be the heart of Cleveland's finest, in a transit center below the Justice Center.

Here's my suggestion for a relocated courthouse/jail complex: On East 14th between Prospect and Carnegie.  While this site would be good for apartments or other uses due to its proximity to Playhouse Square and other attractions, it is next to the expanding Salvation Army center, which may scare away residential investors.  An institutional/governmental development there wouldn't have the same concerns.  The parking lots there are a sub-optimal use for that land and it is unlikely someone else will build on it.  Furthermore the site is still somewhat transit friendly, being a block from the Healthline and not far from the Tubbs Jones Transit Center.

Good suggestion

The Justice center is huge...even with a 400 foot tower.  Keeping in mind that they build prisons differently than office towers,  a whole new building that houses everything that's in the current complex would have to take up more than just one of the warehouse district lots.

^ Do they for sure need all that space though? Office space is much more efficient nowadays, and it's very common for companies to downsize significantly when they move, while still keeping the same amount of employees. Secretaries aren't really a thing anymore, and they used to take up a lot of office space back in the day.

I don't know, but I've always heard that the jail was overcrowded.

 

The Pit might be a good spot

I think the best place for this would be the block bounded by Hamilton and St. Clair, East 13th and East 17th.  The western end of the site is close enough to the law offices clustered along East 9th to be walkable for lawyers and judges.  The eastern end of the site is as out of the way of anything that me might worry about being negatively effected by a jail as it is possible to be while staying Downtown.

 

Here's my suggestion for a relocated courthouse/jail complex: On East 14th between Prospect and Carnegie.  While this site would be good for apartments or other uses due to its proximity to Playhouse Square and other attractions, it is next to the expanding Salvation Army center, which may scare away residential investors.  An institutional/governmental development there wouldn't have the same concerns.  The parking lots there are a sub-optimal use for that land and it is unlikely someone else will build on it.  Furthermore the site is still somewhat transit friendly, being a block from the Healthline and not far from the Tubbs Jones Transit Center.

 

There's new housing completed just across the street from there (the Hanna Annex), with more coming directly to the NE of that site (the 500 bed student housing), and supposedly even more a half block away in the not too distant future, on the PSF lot.  Seems like dropping a big deuce right into the middle of a pretty promising area to me.

Unfortunately I think the East 14th and Prospect/Carnegie site would work best.  Prospect in that stretch is becoming the ass end parking structure dump with the new 500 unit student housing and CSU's terrible new building at E21st.  Also, the Salvation Army complex over there is making it even more depressing.  I say leave everything east of E12 and north of Chester open and ready for new development.  It's one of the only areas that can directly continue the urban fabric of Downtown for future development, which I believe is key.

Unfortunately I think the East 14th and Prospect/Carnegie site would work best.  Prospect in that stretch is becoming the ass end parking structure dump with the new 500 unit student housing and CSU's terrible new building at E21st.  Also, the Salvation Army complex over there is making it even more depressing.  I say leave everything east of E12 and north of Chester open and ready for new development.  It's one of the only areas that can directly continue the urban fabric of Downtown for future development, which I believe is key.

 

Doing some Google overhead and streetviews of the area to see how this might work, I think this site holds some promise. I'd put the jail tower at the corner of 14th and Carnegie which would give it a commanding presence on the south side of downtown. That means demolishing two small-scale, aging commercial buildings which are part of the face of Cleveland as you go through or enter downtown on I-90/I-77. While a jail tower isn't exactly a Welcome Wagon, it can be designed to be attractive on the outside. And the inmates can enjoy the annoying sounds of traffic going by on the highway. A courts tower could be at the north end of the block at East 14th and Prospect, at the opposite end of a parking structure topped with CPD's HQ. This would put the courts tower within an easy walk of Class C (Keith Building, Hanna Building, Allen Building, part of Halle's etc) and even a Class A office building (US Bank Building), plus numerous restaurants and the Cuyahoga County headquarters. This might even justify building a small office building, perphaps on top of a small parking deck, in the area to accommodate additional legal offices, bail bondsmen, public defender's office, etc.

 

This would like mean the emptying out of Class C offices near West 3rd, so if the Justice Center is moved to the other side of downtown, I would hope that planners offer help to fill those buildings with new tenants (incubate small businesses!) or convert them to housing.

All of this is rampant speculation, but I guess possible given that the Juvenile court and jail picked up and moved to location that's seemingly so out of the way.

All of this is rampant speculation, but I guess possible given that the Juvenile court and jail picked up and moved to location that's seemingly so out of the way.

 

Of course it is. That's the only thing on this subject to discuss at this point -- and county officials put the idea out there for the public to speculate about and offer suggestions. And since we're all future Cleveland Planning Directors here, why not?? ;)

I'd find a temporary home for either the Sheriff or the Police, and rebuild on site in phases. Keep the jail. Maybe just renovate the tower.

I concur with those who have said that this should stay in the heart of downtown. As others have mentioned, part of downtown's ecosystem is built around the Justice center with the many many law firms that are downtown and in that area specifically because of it. Either on the current Justice Center site or at the WHD lots (or pie-in-the-sky the Public Square lot) are probably the best options. I would love to see this combined with a transit center. There's really no reason not to. But it should stay in the heart of downtown. It would cause too much of a ripple effect to move it

I concur with those who have said that this should stay in the heart of downtown. As others have mentioned, part of downtown's ecosystem is built around the Justice center with the many many law firms that are downtown and in that area specifically because of it. Either on the current Justice Center site or at the WHD lots (or pie-in-the-sky the Public Square lot) are probably the best options. I would love to see this combined with a transit center. There's really no reason not to. But it should stay in the heart of downtown. It would cause too much of a ripple effect to move it

 

Same here.    I'd prefer KJPs proposal for Superior--much closer to law offices, and most importantly transit.

As time goes by, I can't get rid of this feeling that somehow Geis is going to be involved in the project, especially considering their success with the County's headquarters, and the rumblings of them having a future project in the Warehouse district.

As time goes by, I can't get rid of this feeling that somehow Geis is going to be involved in the project, especially considering their success with the County's headquarters, and the rumblings of them having a future project in the Warehouse district.

 

I haven't heard about Geis showing interest in the Warehouse District. But Geis is expanding their footprint east of East 9th along Prospect and Fred Geis was interviewed at the opening of Hofbräuhaus that he considered the nearby area as an undeveloped doughnut hole of downtown. That's the area that an unnamed developer wants to buy the Greyhound station and surrounding area and move forward quickly on a new project. So now he's on the Warehouse District?

 

If Geis will be involved in a new Justice Center (pending the outcome of an RFP!), all of the downtown sites that UO forumers have mentioned as good places to put it would touch a corner of downtown that Geis has shown an interest in.

I think the solution is to separate the jail from the other facilities.  Court houses and their associated offices are usually at the center of cities for all of the reasons listed above, and I understand the need for police headquarters to be near other government administration functions.  So these functions should remain near the current facility.  They generate a lot of foot traffic in the area, need access to transit and to law offices, and as a bonus court houses are historically designed with beautiful architecture (see old county and federal courthouses, maybe even the new federal courts tower...I've never been in it). 

 

However I think the actual county jail can be moved to the outskirts of downtown with little impact.  The only inconvenience would be for bailiffs that would have to drive convicted persons to the jail rather than walk them there after their hearings.  I would keep it near public transit lines, so that families can visit, post bail, and whatever other functions need to be accessed, but this does not need to be at the center of town, especially since jails do not add much foot traffic and are by design fortresses, walled off buildings that are the opposite of what you'd like to see in the city center. 

How about at the far end of the muni lots... East 24th and lakeside or so.... And extend the waterfront line to there as well?

How about at the far end of the muni lots... East 24th and lakeside or so.... And extend the waterfront line to there as well?

 

It needs to stay in the heart of downtown

Transporting prisoners is not an 'inconvenience', it is a serious security concern.  That's why the jail should be connected to the courts.

However I think the actual county jail can be moved to the outskirts of downtown with little impact.  The only inconvenience would be for bailiffs that would have to drive convicted persons to the jail rather than walk them there after their hearings.  I would keep it near public transit lines, so that families can visit, post bail, and whatever other functions need to be accessed, but this does not need to be at the center of town, especially since jails do not add much foot traffic and are by design fortresses, walled off buildings that are the opposite of what you'd like to see in the city center. 

 

I'd guess that most people in the jails are actually being held awaiting trial.  Most people who are convicted in county court and sentenced to jail time go to a state prison.  So it is not simply a matter of bailiffs (actually, it is the Sheriff Deputies) driving convicted persons to jail.  They have to escort the defendants to and from arraignments, plea hearings, pretrials, suppression hearings, trials, sentencings, etc.  In the current JC, they do all that through a closed circuit system, straight from the jail into the courtroom.

 

I would also disagree with the idea that jails don't add foot traffic.  A lot of people generating foot traffic outside of the JC are those people going to visit family members and friends who are currently in jail or lawyers going to visit their clients for case prep.

I initially suggested that it should move to the Division of Printing site, but I now retract that suggestion in favor of keeping the Justice Center in the heart of downtown. If it's possible to keep just the jail separate, then I'd recommend moving it to the Division of Printing site, or The Pit. If for some reason they have to remain attached (I don't have much of an understanding of how the Justice Center is organized, tbh), then I'm sure good design could make a jail blend in downtown.

 

If it does prove to be too much for just the one Warehouse District lot, I'm imagining they could split it up. The Justice Center complex (courts and police HQ) could be on the lot between Superior and Frankfort, while the jail could be built on part of the lot north of that, with an enclosed bridge connecting them (Cleveland's very own Bridge of Sighs!). The rest of the lot around the jail building could still be used for future mixed-use developments.

 

Here's a visualization...

Light blue = Courts and police HQ complex

Dark blue = jail building

Red = future mixed use retail developments

 

However I think the actual county jail can be moved to the outskirts of downtown with little impact.  The only inconvenience would be for bailiffs that would have to drive convicted persons to the jail rather than walk them there after their hearings.  I would keep it near public transit lines, so that families can visit, post bail, and whatever other functions need to be accessed, but this does not need to be at the center of town, especially since jails do not add much foot traffic and are by design fortresses, walled off buildings that are the opposite of what you'd like to see in the city center. 

 

I'd guess that most people in the jails are actually being held awaiting trial.  Most people who are convicted in county court and sentenced to jail time go to a state prison.  So it is not simply a matter of bailiffs (actually, it is the Sheriff Deputies) driving convicted persons to jail.  They have to escort the defendants to and from arraignments, plea hearings, pretrials, suppression hearings, trials, sentencings, etc.  In the current JC, they do all that through a closed circuit system, straight from the jail into the courtroom.

 

I would also disagree with the idea that jails don't add foot traffic.  A lot of people generating foot traffic outside of the JC are those people going to visit family members and friends who are currently in jail or lawyers going to visit their clients for case prep.

 

This is all true but correct me if I'm wrong but don't most cities separate the courts from the jail?  How did we get along prior to the justice center?  There was clearly no jail attached to the old county court house across the street.  Is Cleveland unique in having one mega facility or are most other cities finding ways to separate these functions.  I think we'd do better to move the jail and keep the courts downtown.

Yea, because everyone wants to shop for clothes and dine out next to a jail.

I think Its hard to do this without knowing the specific needs of the complex and the agencies within it.