Misdemeanor jail terms are served at county jail -- I believe those are up to 1 year. More than 2,000 people are in Cuyahoga County Jail at a given time.

 

So how many people dining or shopping actually know that's a jail along West 3rd? You can design a jail to look like a sleek glass office tower on the outside. Visitors and most NE Ohio residents would marvel at the shiny skyscraper.

We can't move the jail out of downtown.....it will kill the population number :)

As time goes by, I can't get rid of this feeling that somehow Geis is going to be involved in the project, especially considering their success with the County's headquarters, and the rumblings of them having a future project in the Warehouse district.

 

I haven't heard about Geis showing interest in the Warehouse District. But Geis is expanding their footprint east of East 9th along Prospect and Fred Geis was interviewed at the opening of Hofbräuhaus that he considered the nearby area as an undeveloped doughnut hole of downtown. That's the area that an unnamed developer wants to buy the Greyhound station and surrounding area and move forward quickly on a new project. So now he's on the Warehouse District?

 

If Geis will be involved in a new Justice Center (pending the outcome of an RFP!), all of the downtown sites that UO forumers have mentioned as good places to put it would touch a corner of downtown that Geis has shown an interest in.

 

So sorry! I just found the information I was thinking of. It wasn't Geis in the WHD, it was Stark I was thinking of and the recent deal with the Hilliard building. So I guess that answers my questions. I don't think Stark would be interested in building a Justice Center.

Misdemeanor jail terms are served at county jail -- I believe those are up to 1 year. More than 2,000 people are in Cuyahoga County Jail at a given time.

 

Non-violent offenders, which would probably make up a good portion of the minor (not misdemeanor) jail terms, are now held at Euclid's jail subject to space constraints.

 

Like I said above, I would assume that a majority of the inmates at County jail are those defendants who can not afford or are denied bail.

Yea, because everyone wants to shop for clothes and dine out next to a jail.

 

Strange comment. Do you really think that a jail automatically kills all potential retail developments around it? What really matters is the design of the jail. It simply has to look okay from the outside, which shouldn't be too hard to do. A jail on the corner of Frankfort and W. 3 really wouldn't have any effects on new retail/restaurants facing W. 6 and St. Clair. Most people shopping there wouldn't even notice that they are so close to a jail.

I asked some 'old-timers' about the pre-Justice Center history.  The police HQ and jails were located at 21st & Payne.  There was also an arraignment room and four criminal courtrooms in that complex.  The judges would rotate every 3 months between that and the civil courts in the old county courthouse.  Several other cities do maintain separate jails and use holding cells in the courthouse to hold the inmates during court proceedings while not in court.

^Yep, the old Criminal Courts building I mentioned a page or two upthread. It was only demolished about 15 years ago to give Tower Press parking when that project happened. It was an awesome looking high Art Deco complex. Very big city/Gotham. There's even an UO thread about it: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,9853.msg115520.html#msg115520

 

 

The old police HQ is still there, on Payne (it's now "Public Safety Central").

 

^ D*mn that was a cool building.

Some buildings are demolished shortly before a new era that could have given them a new purpose. This building was one such building. What an awesome housing conversion this old building would have been. I remember seeing it many times and thought it was a shame to lose but I couldn't imagine an immediate need for it especially at the price it would take to convert it. Today, after The 9, nothing seems like an impossible conversion. Now we can even envision converting the "new" Justice Center. Yet two decades ago few could have imagined converting the older and smaller "Justice Center."

Justice Center: A study is underway to see what it would cost to build a new Justice Center, including a jail, Budish said. The study, which would include funding options, should be completed by the end of the year.

 

"The Justice Center is sitting on the most, in my view, important piece of property in the city of Cleveland," he said. "That property could be much better utilitized."  It would cost hundreds of millions to repair the current building, he said.  He wasn't sure whether locations would be identified in the study, but he said many areas in the county would be available.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/cuyahoga-county/index.ssf/2015/10/cuyahoga_county_executive_armond_budish_proposes_budget_cuts_to_metrohealth_and_mental_health_board.html#incart_river_home

Budish's comment sounds like he doesn't prefer a site in the heart of the central business district. So on that score, maybe he's thinking a site on periphery of downtown, such as the recently mentioned site along East 14th south of Prospect?

Is there a lack of buildable land downtown that suddenly the current Justice Center is blocking a major development? I don't understand the comment about the complex sitting on prime real estate.

I suspect he is referring to the proximity (and potential for connectivity) to the CC/MM

That's prime land no matter how you slice it, capable of generating significant tax revenues and spinoff development.

 

Budish's "many areas in the county" language suggests it might not go downtown at all.  That doesn't seem right to me.

I suspect he is referring to the proximity (and potential for connectivity) to the CC/MM

 

So do I. It's what has generated all of the talk about a privately built parking garage or two along West 3rd.

 

That's prime land no matter how you slice it, capable of generating significant tax revenues and spinoff development.

 

Budish's "many areas in the county" language suggests it might not go downtown at all.  That doesn't seem right to me.

 

I'm not worried about that yet. He has to say that -- just as the prior exec left it open for the administrative HQ to be located anywhere in the county. You can't come into a publicly funded project by stating preconceived outcomes.

Moving it out of downtown would not be a good idea and moving it out of Cleveland in general would be a disaster and I wouldn't support that

The county and city jails should be put somewhere near Orange Ave or so (though the core downtown population numbers would take a big hit!). 

 

The County Courts should remain somewhere near public square to be near the other court houses (Lakeside, US, etc.). A small detention center should be built within for people on trial who are not free to leave (but not yet convicted, thus not in 'jail').  The new court tower could include Cleveland PD HQ (as is this the case now), or the CLE PD could very well be a separate place.... NYC's is at "1 Police Plaza". CPD is prominent enough of an institution that I'd prefer it to have its own tower and building somewhere Downtown, and not get roped into a county facility.

CPD's offices and support facilities aren't significant enough to justify a "tower". I used to go down there every Monday morning when I was at Sun to get the weekly activity summaries for First and Second District. I would estimate the CPD's space needs would require a building roughly the size of the FBI building, perhaps even smaller. There was a lot of empty space at CPD HQ when I was on the CPD crime beat -- from 2004-09. And the empty space was increasing during my later years there, through early retirements as Mayor Jackson was cutting the city's budget through attrition.

Budish's comment sounds like he doesn't prefer a site in the heart of the central business district. So on that score, maybe he's thinking a site on periphery of downtown, such as the recently mentioned site along East 14th south of Prospect?

If he holds that much value on the current site, from a developable standpoint, then I don't see him moving it 1 or 2 blocks south along Superior.  I would have to say the site your referencing KJP, or somewhere near the Food Terminal/Womens prison would be top on the list. 

Budish's comment sounds like he doesn't prefer a site in the heart of the central business district. So on that score, maybe he's thinking a site on periphery of downtown, such as the recently mentioned site along East 14th south of Prospect?

If he holds that much value on the current site, from a developable standpoint, then I don't see him moving it 1 or 2 blocks south along Superior.  I would have to say the site your referencing KJP, or somewhere near the Food Terminal/Womens prison would be top on the list. 

 

Where do people in Cleveland come up with these "values?"  This is similar to the Lakefront discussion about "valuable" property at Burke Lakefront.  If a developer wanted it that bad, they would be sniffing it out.  As I see it now, the county is just drumming up interest in replacing a worn out (though young) public building. 

 

In terms of the location, you have WAY to many legal offices spread out from E9th to W9th north of Superior to consider a move to a freeway interchange south of downtown.  There are entire buildings filled with attorneys within blocks of the current site. 

 

Plus, as discussed thoroughly upthread, many of the courts users, visitors and lawyers use public transit to get there.   

 

We can all speculate, but in the end the I'd put my money on the new site ending up within blocks of the current.

I initially suggested that it should move to the fringe of downtown, such as the current Division of Printing site. But now I firmly believe that it should stay in the heart of downtown (with my favorite option being the big lot at Superior and W. 6).

Moving it to the SW corner of the WHD lots or roundabouts does make some sense in terms of placing it near both the Federal Courthouse and the state agencies building, both of which are also visited often by members of the legal field.

 

One thing I haven't seen mentioned here is the potential impact a move would have on the two Lakeside buildings across W3, particularly the courthouse annex, but also 323(?). Once they lose that proximity, both would be ripe for residential / mixed use conversion and both are real beauties IMO.

Here's a couple of ideas....

 

Courthouse Tower-Public Square1s by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

CPD & jail site1s by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

Oops, forgot the parking deck for the CPD HQ and jail, so I put it partially over the RTA tracks and used its elevators to also reach the new station's platforms....

 

CPD & jail site2s by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

Great idea Ken. The lawyers can easily walk to Tower City and catch the rapid. As well as the public getting there by rapid or bus. Frees up space in the core of downtown for a future tower. Puts a decent sized tower on the outer ring.

 

Plus it puts the CPD and county deputies, fugitive task force, etc. close to freeways to get to/from calls quickly. It also provides a parking deck and a Rapid station in a location that can spur other development with the police station screening that development from the jail. The parking deck not only provides protection from the weather for RTA passengers waiting at the station and it would provide elevators from track level to the top level of the parking deck.

But wouldn't it be ideal to keep all those workers in the CBD? I'm sure a lot of businesses downtown benefit from the Justice Center workers being there.

Most of the Justice Center's workers and visitors appear to be involved with the courts. That would remain in the heart of the CBD. And since most of the private law offices are already along and north of Superior Avenue from West 9th to East 9th, it made to sense to keep the courthouse near where it is. And since we all want to see the Jacobs lot developed (not knowing if they have anything cooking on the front burner), I put it there.

 

As for the jail, some folks here said they didn't want a jail in the heart of the central business district anymore. And that's probably the part that could be moved out of the CBD while causing the least negative impact.

 

There are some questions I have but can't answer. For example... Do guards get to leave the jail building for lunch or breaks? Do the deputies spend most of their time and around the jail? Or are they on the road throughout the county or babysitting indicted persons attending hearings at the courthouse? At CPD headquarters, do administrators and detectives spend most of their day in the offices? Probably varies from day to day, although I do know that police HQ assistants, data entry/processing personnel and secretaries do spend their days almost entirely in the office except for lunch and breaks. They may be the biggest loss from the jail/CPD HQ not being in the heart of the CBD anymore, as might visitors to inmates, or persons visiting the CPD HQ to get archived documents, claim lost or stolen items, etc.

 

But I put this facility on the Rapid line so that the CBD doesn't entirely lose all business from this facility being outside the Inner Belt's "moat". Workers wanting to get lunch or an after-work drink can do so by hopping the Rapid and ride one stop up the line to Tower City or a couple more stops to Flats East Bank.

What if this were to be built on the muni lots off of Marginal Road as a series of horizontal buildings.  This can connect to the RTA Waterfront Line an still connect to downtown restaurant and law offices.  It would definitely activate the transit system.  I know the lakefront plan adopted by the city proposed buildings to be buillt in those parking lots the City already owns

Isn't the entire idea of relocating the JC to open up prime real estate for other uses?

Isn't the entire idea of relocating the JC to open up prime real estate for other uses?

I don't think it's so much about relocating it as it is about rebuilding it.  Simply because of its deteriorating condition.

This is thinking an extra step ahead...but assuming this thing moves in the next decade, what do you see as the best use of land on the giant parcel that is currently occupied by the justice center? New office tower? Mixed-use development?

 

Knowing how history has played out, is there any chance we end up with a "new" giant parking lot one block up from where the "old one" was, assuming the Weston Project sees its full build-out? Do you think re-development would be swift or is there a chance we'd be staring at another blank "hole" again for some time? I know this is trying to foresee the future because many factors could be at play here, but I'm just wondering if there is any insight by those of you that seem to have more expertise that would indicate one way or the other.

What if this were to be built on the muni lots off of Marginal Road as a series of horizontal buildings.  This can connect to the RTA Waterfront Line an still connect to downtown restaurant and law offices.  It would definitely activate the transit system.  I know the lakefront plan adopted by the city proposed buildings to be buillt in those parking lots the City already owns

 

The city does want to develop the muny lots, but the ideas I've heard is that they want to sell them. That includes a new idea of adding a four-way intersection to the Shoreway at the east roadway into Burke's terminal and extending that roadway across the Shoreway to South Marginal Road.

 

 

I don't think it's so much about relocating it as it is about rebuilding it.  Simply because of its deteriorating condition.

 

Agreed. I think what's driving the desire for a new Justice Center is the new administration building on East 9th. If you go from that building and head over to the Justice Center, you go from the sleek, bright lines and latest building tech of the 21st century to a brutalist, dark dungeon of the 1970s. The contrast between these county buildings leaves some strong impressions. So now some of the most powerful politicians in Northeast Ohio -- Cuyahoga County judges -- want what the county leaders over on East 9th Street have. I've spent time in both buildings, especially many years in the Justice Center, and I can understand their feelings. I'm still trying to figure out the elevators in the new building! :)

 

 

This is thinking an extra step ahead...but assuming this thing moves in the next decade, what do you see as the best use of land on the giant parcel that is currently occupied by the justice center? New office tower? Mixed-use development?

 

Knowing how history has played out, is there any chance we end up with a "new" giant parking lot one block up from where the "old one" was, assuming the Weston Project sees its full build-out? Do you think re-development would be swift or is there a chance we'd be staring at another blank "hole" again for some time? I know this is trying to foresee the future because many factors could be at play here, but I'm just wondering if there is any insight by those of you that seem to have more expertise that would indicate one way or the other.

 

I could be wrong but I don't see the tower getting demolished. But we came very close to the Ameritrust tower being demolished. So, who knows? I'll bet its steel skeleton is still sound, but the interior buildouts and exterior skin might be replaced/modernized. I do see the jail buildings getting demolished, however, and possibly the CPD headquarters. But stranger things have happened. That long, bunker-like building along Rockwell in the east teens found new life as a technology center, with lots of a internet and telecommunications equipment in there. So perhaps the jails might find new life as a business incubator for start-up companies, or laboratories for a biotech company or a research facility for an advanced manufacturing firm. Anything is possible.

What is the budget for transporting prisoners?  Back and forth?  Back and forth?  Sometimes multiple times a day.  I don't see the jail ever separating from the courts. 

 

How many are out on bail during their trials? How many hearings are/can be handled by the accused's attorney present only or the accused present via video? How many cities have the courthouse/jail under the same roof?

While we are pondering a replacement and its location, I think one should consider adjacent parking availability.  In a post 9-11 world, I can't imagine either a courthouse or a police headquarters with a public parking facility beneath the building.

While we are pondering a replacement and its location, I think one should consider adjacent parking availability.  In a post 9-11 world, I can't imagine either a courthouse or a police headquarters with a public parking facility beneath the building.

 

I was thinking about that too. But I think the siting and parking of public buildings is driven more by Oklahoma City and the first WTC bombings. However if you have a courthouse downtown and you put the parking deck next to it, that's a pretty big footprint. It limits the downtown locations where it can be put. That increases the likelihood of that the building would be put next to a public street which makes the building more vulnerable to a Ryder truck loaded with explosives. I think that's a bigger threat to a building than a car bomb placed inside a parking deck. Car bombs are inherently smaller, and the WTC parking deck absorbed the blast from a much larger rental van. Since then, all delivery vans and trucks that enter a public building's parking/loading area are usually subject to inspection anyway. So that's why I placed the police headquarters toward the back of the parking deck so that any vehicle large enough to contain enough explosives to damage the structural integrity of a building would instead wreck the front of the parking deck -- which I designed with convex-like angles to send more of the blast energy around the front of the structure than a flat front that would make its interior vulnerable to absorbing the blast force.

 

A similar design feature can be done to the front of the courthouse facing Public Square (or whatever street it is on). First it could be set back a little bit and then have the building's facade step up and away from the street as you go higher up in the structure. As for it's parking deck, most of it would not have the building above it. And the part that does is could have the elevators up to a jury lobby. So between that and the pedestrian/driveway area in front of the elevator lobby would leave no place for a parked car to damage the overhead structure. Besides, a parked car or minivan probably isn't large enough to contain enough explosives to cause failure to the load-bearing members of the structure. The part of the building that's above the parking deck is also angled in a convex way so if a car/van bomb does explode, it's energy is directed around the building and not into it.

 

Yes, I actually thought of this stuff as I came up with the massings. And again, those are just massings. The devil will ultimately be in the details. Of course, none of this means I know what I'm talking about when it comes to designing buildings and parking decks that can survive attacks that we can envision today. But I wanted you and others to know that I did take those morbid thoughts into account.

Just a little update, mainly things we already know:

 

Cuyahoga County hires firms to determine future of Justice Center

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio - Cuyahoga County will spend $62,500 to determine whether to keep or replace the 40-year-old Justice Center in downtown Cleveland.

 

The county's Board of Control, which includes County Executive Armond Budish and council members, agreed Monday to pay $50,000 to K2M Design to study options and $12,500 to the Thompson Hine law firm.

 

K2M, along with Osborne Engineering in 2014 completed an extensive assessment of the condition of the 2.29 million-square-foot Justice Center complex.

 

...

 

But the firms did not study the possibility of demolishing the entire complex and the cost to rebuild at another location.

 

Budish has said he wanted to examine all options.

 

Read More

Was thinking more about this... If the county does decide on building a new Justice Center, it will be massive. I didn't appreciate how big that complex is until I wrote my blog on the potential new skyscrapers for downtown: http://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2016/01/cleveland-ready-to-scrape-skies-more.html

 

The Justice Center is 2.3 million square feet spread over a very large city block. When it was built, an alley through the middle of the block was vacated to make the block larger. And yet it still has no public parking within that block!

 

How big is 2.3 million square feet? No other single building downtown is as large. 925 Euclid is 1.4 million square feet. Key Tower is 1.5 million sf. Key Tower also has a 900-car underground parking garage. A parking space is about 320 square feet (including lanes, ramps, etc), so the parking garage adds nearly another 300,000 sf.

 

A new Justice Center's space needs could exceed 2.6 million square feet. Here's some assumptions:

 

+ The county is satisfied with the size of the existing 25-story courthouse tower's floorplates, which are about 30,000 sf each.

+ The county's most recent jail addition has optimally sized floorplates (it is actually very similar to each of the two existing jail blocks which look like a single building from the street) of 25,000 sf each.

+ There are 27 floors among three jail blocks and support facilities for the county jail.

+ That the Cleveland Police Department will not need more or less space than what is available in its 9-story, 324,000 sf headquarters.

+ That two garages, a public parking garage for 500 cars and an employee/storage garage for 500 cars, are desirable.

 

SINGLE TOWER: If all of these uses are stacked in a single building with parking that starts with floor plates of 35,000 sf (floors 1-18), shrinks to floorplates of 30,000 sf (floors 19-44), then shrinks further to floorplates of 25,000 sf (floors 45-71), that gives us an idea of how big the Justice Center is. BTW, such a building would fit on the Jacobs Group lot on Public Square.

 

However....

 

TWO TOWERS: I don't see the wisdom in putting all of these uses in the same building. I think they should be split up in two buildings -- a courts tower (with public parking) and a police/jail tower (with employee/storage parking) and be placed side-by-side.

 

Courts tower: lobby and parking (levels 1-6, average floorplates of 35,000 sf); courts, clerks, offices (6-30, average floorplates of 30,000 sf).

Police/sheriff/jail tower: lobby and parking (levels 1-6, average floorplates of 35,000 sf); CPD HQ (floors 7-19); sheriff/jail/support (floors 20-46, average floorplates of 25,000 sf).

 

The total number of floors is more in the two-building scenario because the parking area per level is less in both, and the overall police/jail tower is more slender. However this two-tower scenario would be more expensive to build. And by preferring two towers makes it less likely this could fit into the existing downtown central business district without demolitions or displacing existing major development plans, and would probably have to be built at the CBD's periphery instead.

Nice write up KJP.  Not to nit pick but a parking space is typically 9'x18' so your square footage for the parking would be at least 2 to 2.5 times the estimate when including ramps and lanes.

Thanks. Does that 9x18 figure include ramps and lanes?

KJP ... nice write up (and awesome artilce on the potential new skyscrapers)!

 

How big of a footprint do you think is reasonably needed to build a Justice Center?  3 acres?

Depends if you want the parking deck(s) next to the building or within its vertical column(s). If everything is in a single tower, it could be as little as 3/4 of an acre. More likely, with two towers, we're looking at a minimum of 1.5 acres. But security related setbacks and parking in a separate structure or two, then yes we're potentially looking at 3 acres.

Thanks. Does that 9x18 figure include ramps and lanes?

 

It does not.  Each space including drives and ramps is 320sf per space to determine a rough overall square footage.

It does not.  Each space including drives and ramps is 320sf per space to determine a rough overall square footage.

 

Thanks. Data adjusted accordingly. In the two tower configuration, I made the parking deck pedestals wider and identical in size (and, as assumed, in design too) in the name of cost efficiency. The exterior facades of the parking decks could be different to easily identify the structures from street level.

I still don't understand the logic of moving the JC from its current "prime real estate" location to open up that land to the Jacobs lot or anywhere in that vicinity.  I also think the talk of a tower or towers for anything other than the courtrooms is not going to happen.

I believe 9x18 is for outdoor spots...in a parking garage I think the minimum is 10x20

I still don't understand the logic of moving the JC from its current "prime real estate" location to open up that land to the Jacobs lot or anywhere in that vicinity.  I also think the talk of a tower or towers for anything other than the courtrooms is not going to happen.

 

It may not move. But I think the Cuyahoga County judges are jealous of their executive/council colleagues who have a nice shiny new building. Those judges may be the third largest base of political power in the county after county executive/council and Cleveland mayor/council.

 

If the court tower moves, the jails will move with it. Logistically, it just makes sense. And from a real estate perspective, if the courthouse tower is vacated, what investor/developer would want to buy it and redevelop it if an active county jail is still standing next to it? By the time anything gets built and opened, the newest jail addition will be 30 years old and the older, larger part will be 50 years old.

Is the JC also City Hall?  I haven't lived in CLE for 35 years so I don't quite remember.  Why couldn't a new City Hall/JC Complex be combined into a great statement like Toronto?

They are separate buildings. The existing City Hall is a gorgeous building that turns 100 years old this year.