^^JC is a county facility (except for the CPD HQ). Cleveland City Hall is a beautiful 1910's Beaux Arts building that is a crucial part of the Group Plan and isn't going anywhere.

 

[KJP beat me to it]

What's the possibility of the hypothetical new Justice Center being built on the former Horseshoe Phase II site? That's a very large stretch of land, and a new Justice Center could almost completely fill it in, and create a new street wall along W. Huron.

^That would make a helluva lot more sense than the Jacobs' lot on PS.

 

I still don't understand the logic of moving the JC from its current "prime real estate" location to open up that land to the Jacobs lot or anywhere in that vicinity.  I also think the talk of a tower or towers for anything other than the courtrooms is not going to happen.

 

It may not move. But I think the Cuyahoga County judges are jealous of their executive/council colleagues who have a nice shiny new building. Those judges may be the third largest base of political power in the county after county executive/council and Cleveland mayor/council.

 

If the court tower moves, the jails will move with it. Logistically, it just makes sense. And from a real estate perspective, if the courthouse tower is vacated, what investor/developer would want to buy it and redevelop it if an active county jail is still standing next to it? By the time anything gets built and opened, the newest jail addition will be 30 years old and the older, larger part will be 50 years old.

 

I agree that the jail will likely move with the courtrooms.  But your post wasn't really responsive.  My understanding was that a huge driving factor for this move would be to open up that land for redevelopment.  If so, why move it to another lot which is just as prime? 

 

FWIW, I don't think it is the judges so much pushing for this as it is the lawyers and administrative staff.  The Judges have separate access and nice offices.  They don't have to deal with all the riff-raff in the common areas. 

I agree that the jail will likely move with the courtrooms.  But your post wasn't really responsive.  My understanding was that a huge driving factor for this move would be to open up that land for redevelopment.  If so, why move it to another lot which is just as prime? 

 

I didn't understand your post. Now I do. I wouldn't move it to a prime real estate location, but instead to a fringe location. I'm working on something. :)

 

FWIW, I don't think it is the judges so much pushing for this as it is the lawyers and administrative staff.  The Judges have separate access and nice offices.  They don't have to deal with all the riff-raff in the common areas. 

 

I've heard judges (and many others) complain about the condition of the building, not so much the clientele. Its design, layout, people circulation, and even its air quality seems to take a little bit from your life for each hour spent there.

 

EDIT: this site plan is based on the square footage and footprint of the building. It assumes no setbacks/tapering as each structure gets taller. If there are setbacks/tapering of the buildings in the upper floors, then the buildings would be taller. I placed the courthouse tower closer to Euclid to be nearer to existing office buildings, restaurants and the HealthLine. The police/jail tower would be close to I-90 because of the highway's noise and the building's general lack of interaction with its surroundings (although employees could walk to restaurants north/west of the building for lunch). The parking deck for employees and visitors is in between-- there could separate vehicular entrances, ramps and parking sections for visitors and for employees within the deck. An enclosed walkway for prisoners/police/guards between the jail and the courthouse tower would run across the top of the parking deck and not be accessible to/from the deck. A walkway level below the prisoner passageway between the parking deck and courthouse tower would be for employees. Visitors going between the deck and the courthouse tower would go down to street level and walk across a plaza, possible with a covered but not enclosed sidewalk, into a security checkpoint in the courthouse tower's lobby. I couldn't remember what the footprint will be for the Salvation Army's new structure on Prospect so I left a little bit of room there for it. The plazas around the courthouse tower are to provide a place for employees to take breaks outside of the building as well to provide security/buffering. The two sections of courthouse tower next to streets (14th as well as Prospect) would not allow parking next to them and the lower floors next to those two streets only would have no windows. There would however, be a significant glassy lobby facing out at a plaza at the corner of 14th and Prospect. That would be the courthouse tower's main entrance and public area.

 

This concept also assumes the proposed 30-story apartment building at Euclid/East 17th is built. When passing by Cleveland on I-90, downtown would now look like it has three groups of skyscrapers -- Public Square, East 9th and now Playhouse Square...

 

Justice Center replacement1 by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

I really like this location KJP.  I pass by that peninsula created by 14th/18th/Prospect everyday and wonder if that collection of buildings will ever be re-developed.  This would really anchor development potential to the south and east of downtown nicely and maybe lead to some better connections between Playhouse Square and Gateway.

Salvation Army is currently building a family shelter on half of what you're proposing for the parking garage.

Salvation Army is currently building a family shelter on half of what you're proposing for the parking garage.

 

OK. So a slightly taller parking garage on a smaller footprint.

Salvation Army to launch $35 million construction program

 

"The new Zelma George Emergency Family Shelter will go on property the Salvation Army acquired earlier this year next to Harbor Light, which serves as a half-way house and homeless shelter. The 29,044-square-foot building will cost $9.7 million to construct."

 

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20151102/NEWS/151109987/salvation-army-to-launch-35-million-construction-program

What's the possibility of the hypothetical new Justice Center being built on the former Horseshoe Phase II site? That's a very large stretch of land, and a new Justice Center could almost completely fill it in, and create a new street wall along W. Huron.

 

I feel like this area along the river is much better utilized for recreational purposes. Phase II of the casino would fit in beautifully there if designed well. If the river is truly our waterfront than the Justice Center is probably the last thing you want there.

Salvation Army to launch $35 million construction program

 

"The new Zelma George Emergency Family Shelter will go on property the Salvation Army acquired earlier this year next to Harbor Light, which serves as a half-way house and homeless shelter. The 29,044-square-foot building will cost $9.7 million to construct."

 

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20151102/NEWS/151109987/salvation-army-to-launch-35-million-construction-program

 

Yep...

 

 

Its too bad, I thought KJP had a awesome idea. 

I also agree that the river site should be saved for something more special for public recreation / entertainment.

How about where the old Ferro offices were located?  The block between East 10th, East 12th, Lakeside, and Bethel court could hold the two towers KJP is suggesting if they build out over the Galleria garage entrances and East 11th St.  The parking garage is already there, with more under the Galleria and across East 12th St.  It's a non-residential area of Downtown, and it's very close to most of the lawyers' offices, which are clustered along East 6th, 9th, and 12th.

The Salvation Army's Family center's driveway entrance would be moved closer to their building and 24 of their parking spaces would be moved to the current location of East 16th Place (vacated) and slivers of parcels immediate along and adjacent to the west side of the alley. Parking deck and Police/jail tower footprints and heights are adjusted accordingly...

 

Justice Center replacement2s by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

Here is the reason the new Justice Center would have to be close to the old location:

 

https://www.google.com/maps/search/attorney/@41.5016929,-81.6984805,15z/data=!4m8!2m7!3m6!1sattorney!2sCuyahoga+County+Common+Pleas+Court,+1200+Ontario+St,+Cleveland,+OH+44113!3s0x8830f080d4d4003d:0x3111cbc20781597!4m2!1d-81.6969355!2d41.5023685

 

There are currently generations of attorneys, bail bondsmen and other allied industries based around the current site.  The BP Building, Terminal Tower, and 55 Public Square are all jammed with them.  And it makes sense--it's only 3-4 blocks to the Justice Center, County or Federal Courts.    A shift to E 18th would cause them all to howl, along with the "clients" of the Justice Center, who are very dependent on public transit to get them to/from home. 

 

IMO the Justice "Center" needs to stay just that:  in the center of the city, government and transportation. 

 

 

Salvation Army to launch $35 million construction program

 

"The new Zelma George Emergency Family Shelter will go on property the Salvation Army acquired earlier this year next to Harbor Light, which serves as a half-way house and homeless shelter. The 29,044-square-foot building will cost $9.7 million to construct."

 

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20151102/NEWS/151109987/salvation-army-to-launch-35-million-construction-program

 

Yep...

 

 

 

Just when downtown Cleveland is really gaining traction, this horrible news is released.

Here is the reason the new Justice Center would have to be close to the old location:

 

https://www.google.com/maps/search/attorney/@41.5016929,-81.6984805,15z/data=!4m8!2m7!3m6!1sattorney!2sCuyahoga+County+Common+Pleas+Court,+1200+Ontario+St,+Cleveland,+OH+44113!3s0x8830f080d4d4003d:0x3111cbc20781597!4m2!1d-81.6969355!2d41.5023685

 

There are currently generations of attorneys, bail bondsmen and other allied industries based around the current site.  The BP Building, Terminal Tower, and 55 Public Square are all jammed with them.  And it makes sense--it's only 3-4 blocks to the Justice Center, County or Federal Courts.    A shift to E 18th would cause them all to howl, along with the "clients" of the Justice Center, who are very dependent on public transit to get them to/from home. 

 

IMO the Justice "Center" needs to stay just that:  in the center of the city, government and transportation.

 

Understood, however, the jail needs to be not included if it stays downtown/CBD.  I know the cost of transporting prisoners and all but worth the cost imo.

Here is the reason the new Justice Center would have to be close to the old location:

 

https://www.google.com/maps/search/attorney/@41.5016929,-81.6984805,15z/data=!4m8!2m7!3m6!1sattorney!2sCuyahoga+County+Common+Pleas+Court,+1200+Ontario+St,+Cleveland,+OH+44113!3s0x8830f080d4d4003d:0x3111cbc20781597!4m2!1d-81.6969355!2d41.5023685

 

There are currently generations of attorneys, bail bondsmen and other allied industries based around the current site.  The BP Building, Terminal Tower, and 55 Public Square are all jammed with them.  And it makes sense--it's only 3-4 blocks to the Justice Center, County or Federal Courts.    A shift to E 18th would cause them all to howl, along with the "clients" of the Justice Center, who are very dependent on public transit to get them to/from home. 

 

IMO the Justice "Center" needs to stay just that:  in the center of the city, government and transportation. 

 

 

 

I'm sure the attorneys complained when the courts building move from Payne Avenue to the Justice Center. And a surprising number of law offices are already along East 9th as well as near Playhouse Square. I don't think it will be a big deal. Law offices move around a lot, and they'll have years of Justice Center construction to secure new digs if they want to move.

 

 

Just when downtown Cleveland is really gaining traction, this horrible news is released.

 

That's a year old. It's not news. And I'm not sure why this building to serve families is horrible news when the adjacent, 8-story Harbor Light building is not. If living near people of lesser means is not for you, then living in a city where all types of people live isn't for you.

Here is the reason the new Justice Center would have to be close to the old location:

 

https://www.google.com/maps/search/attorney/@41.5016929,-81.6984805,15z/data=!4m8!2m7!3m6!1sattorney!2sCuyahoga+County+Common+Pleas+Court,+1200+Ontario+St,+Cleveland,+OH+44113!3s0x8830f080d4d4003d:0x3111cbc20781597!4m2!1d-81.6969355!2d41.5023685

 

There are currently generations of attorneys, bail bondsmen and other allied industries based around the current site.  The BP Building, Terminal Tower, and 55 Public Square are all jammed with them.  And it makes sense--it's only 3-4 blocks to the Justice Center, County or Federal Courts.    A shift to E 18th would cause them all to howl, along with the "clients" of the Justice Center, who are very dependent on public transit to get them to/from home. 

 

IMO the Justice "Center" needs to stay just that:  in the center of the city, government and transportation. 

 

 

 

I'm sure the attorneys complained when the courts building move from Payne Avenue to the Justice Center. And a surprising number of law offices are already along East 9th as well as near Playhouse Square. I don't think it will be a big deal. Law offices move around a lot, and they'll have years of Justice Center construction to secure new digs if they want to move.

 

 

I think that's underestimating the power of their lobby.    It's a much bigger business today than it was 50 years ago.  And besides, where would they move to?    There is not a lot of office space in the 18th/Carnegie area, let alone Class A space.

 

Furthermore, as a transportation and rail advocate, why wouldn't you want the center of our justice system to be based within a short walk from the city's central rail station?  (I personally know a couple Shaker-based lawyers who take the train every day). 

Many of the lawyers who represent criminal clients aren't in Class A office space. But the US Bank building at East 14th and Euclid is Class A. Plenty of quality Class B and C office space in that area, including in the Keith Building (21 stories), Hanna Building (16 stories) plus many smaller buildings.

 

Sure, I'd love for a new 70-story Justice Center building to be on the Jacobs lot on Public Square. I just don't see the county building something that big (nor the wisdom of having a jail in the same building with the general public coming and going). And with the Weston/Citymark development, there aren't many other places near Tower City where this could go. The spot south of 14th/Prospect is transit-accessible from the west (the #55 Clifton bus), the south (the #77 Brecksville bus), and the east (many bus lines).

Many of the lawyers who represent criminal clients aren't in Class A office space. But the US Bank building at East 14th and Euclid is Class A. Plenty of quality Class B and C office space in that area, including in the Keith Building (21 stories), Hanna Building (16 stories) plus many smaller buildings.

 

Sure, I'd love for a new 70-story Justice Center building to be on the Jacobs lot on Public Square. I just don't see the county building something that big (nor the wisdom of having a jail in the same building with the general public coming and going). And with the Weston/Citymark development, there aren't many other places near Tower City where this could go. The spot south of 14th/Prospect is transit-accessible from the west (the #55 Clifton bus), the south (the #77 Brecksville bus), and the east (many bus lines).

 

Are there any plans for the surface lots between W6th/W9th and St Clair/Superior (behind Rockefeller building)?

Just so everyone's on the same page, most downtown lawyers will have zero interest where the Justice Center is. As KJP has sort of alluded to, the defense bar is only a small part of the legal community.

Just so everyone's on the same page, most downtown lawyers will have zero interest where the Justice Center is. As KJP has sort of alluded to, the defense bar is only a small part of the legal community.

 

Then how do you explain:

 

https://www.google.com/maps/search/attorney/@41.5016929,-81.6984805,15z/data=!4m8!2m7!3m6!1sattorney!2sCuyahoga+County+Common+Pleas+Court,+1200+Ontario+St,+Cleveland,+OH+44113!3s0x8830f080d4d4003d:0x3111cbc20781597!4m2!1d-81.6969355!2d41.5023685

 

If your theory holds true, wouldn't there be law offices scattered all over the city, rather than concentrated between E 6th and W 6th? 

 

There are plenty of civil cases heard in the Justice Center.  And many of the surrounding offices house multi-specialties (including criminal defense), or are shared-space rentals.   

 

 

^If the Justice Center also houses civil cases that can't be moved to the older courthouse, then fair point, I'm over-simplifying. I don't really see much in that map though. That just tells me lawyers work in downtown office buildings, including along 9th St and Playhouse Sq.

 

Are there any plans for the surface lots between W6th/W9th and St Clair/Superior (behind Rockefeller building)?

 

Not yet, but Stark Enterprises bought them recently and a firm that does financing for urban housing projects bought the mid-19th century Hilliard Building (on West 9th) last year. So I suspect something is afoot. Besides, it's not that big of a swath of land (only slightly larger than Jacobs' lot), so if a new Justice Center was built there it would probably be a very tall single tower, probably 55-60 stories -- surrounded by 3- to 16-story buildings. Most are 5 stories or less.

 

BTW, the Cuyahoga County Public Defender's office is located across West 3rd from the Justice Center. In a new building there's no reason why that legal office couldn't be located in the same building. It's not an independent law firm.

And yet another idea - because why not. This would place the Justice Ctr/Police Hdqs. just across the street by swapping places with Fort Huntingtonn Park. If would also put the Jail and Parking structure connected by an underground passageway. The Justice Tower would have a podium much like the Hilton that would house Police Hdqs with the Courts/Admin in the tower. I am thinking about 35 floors combined.  The Jail/Parking complex would be compromised of 4 floors of parking (800 spaces)with about 8 floors of jail cells on top.  These would be along the RR tracks which could be the best use of that space.  Fort Huntington Park could remain that until a development worthy of that site comes along.

KJP, that's a good illustration of how a new Justice Center could fit on that spot, even with the expanded Salvation Army.

 

Cleburger, looking at your Google Map link of attorneys, it doesn't look like they are especially clustered around the current Justice Center, it looks like they are distributed around the CBD.  A couple of results on your map are even across the river, so proximity to the Justice Center doesn't seem that important.  Besides, E. 14th Street is not some far flung, unreachable place. 

 

Not to be redundant, but back in October this was my reasoning for this site:

Here's my suggestion for a relocated courthouse/jail complex: On East 14th between Prospect and Carnegie.  While this site would be good for apartments or other uses due to its proximity to Playhouse Square and other attractions, it is next to the expanding Salvation Army center, which may scare away residential investors.  An institutional/governmental development there wouldn't have the same concerns.  The parking lots there are a sub-optimal use for that land and it is unlikely someone else will build on it.  Furthermore the site is still somewhat transit friendly, being a block from the Healthline and not far from the Tubbs Jones Transit Center.

 

The best outcome for the city as a whole is for the Justice Center to be placed on a site that is less-desirable to private investment so that private owners can build in the more desirable locations and generate tax revenue.  The Jacobs lot on Public Square has the potential to generate high rents, and hopefully will soon.  It would be a mistake to use that marquee property for a jail.  The E. 14th site is less likely to attract private development because it is next to the Salvation Army. 

I actually like KJP's location for the Justice Center Complex close to the rails.  It does make a lot of sense.  It would also make the rapid more viable in that location.  That land has been undeveloped for years.  If a 35-50 story tower is constructed, it would force the site to be developed.  Plus the location wouldn't hinder traffic because of construction (because of the lack of development in the area IMO).  It's seems like a lot of people want the JC to remain in the heart of downtown, but the current downtown landscape is vastly underused IMO.  The current location can be used for a multitude of viable concepts.  If attorneys have an issue with that location, then I don't see how a new development location would please any of them, because they are literally scattered across downtown.

Welcome, Superior. Although my most recent concept site wasn't near any rail line, I earlier suggested the ex-Union Station site between West 3rd and West 9th.

^dude, calm down...

 

Anyways, back to being on topic - I think there are many locations downtown that could house this new center. As long as it's designed properly, it can fit into the fabric one way or another. I, like most here, hope can do 1-2 large towers. That'd be legit ??

 

Anyway, what are some of the many locations downtown you have in mind?  What about the Hippodrome Theater lots between Euclid & Prospect?

^dude, calm down...

 

Anyways, back to being on topic - I think there are many locations downtown that could house this new center. As long as it's designed properly, it can fit into the fabric one way or another. I, like most here, hope can do 1-2 large towers. That'd be legit ??

 

Anyway, what are some of the many locations downtown you have in mind?  What about the Hippodrome Theater lots between Euclid & Prospect?

 

With all of the residential infill planned for that area, I'd like to see that lot go residential as well. But I like some of the lots by the federal courthouse for the justice center, IMHO. I believe there was a proposal (or a few of them) a while ago for the lots next to the federal courthouse (wasn't it courthouse plaza?). I don't know if there's even enough room over there.

^ yep

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,30352.msg773900.html#msg773900

Thanks, freethink. Haven't had time to go back and look at the whole thread yet. Appreciate the link.

^dude, calm down...

 

Anyways, back to being on topic - I think there are many locations downtown that could house this new center. As long as it's designed properly, it can fit into the fabric one way or another. I, like most here, hope can do 1-2 large towers. That'd be legit ??

 

Anyway, what are some of the many locations downtown you have in mind?  What about the Hippodrome Theater lots between Euclid & Prospect?

 

With all of the residential infill planned for that area, I'd like to see that lot go residential as well. But I like some of the lots by the federal courthouse for the justice center, IMHO. I believe there was a proposal (or a few of them) a while ago for the lots next to the federal courthouse (wasn't it courthouse plaza?). I don't know if there's even enough room over there.

 

I as well would prefer something on the Hippodrome lots, residential would be fine of course, maybe even some office development but then again the areas north and south of Playhouse Square offer tons of residential development (which is why I don't want the you know what south of Euclid)...

^ yep

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,30352.msg773900.html#msg773900

 

That works.  Complete with direct access to all train lines.  Could it be possible to see lawyers and judges riding the RTA trains again?  I like this location, works well and will look great.

 

This would be TOD at its best with tons of built-in daily users.

 

As far as being inconvenient to lawyers, they would have to adapt.  It's not like they have an option.  The idea for a development south of Carnegie at the foot of 9th Street is far more inconvenient and isolating than the Courthouse Plaza concept.

Is there room at Tower City, near the Federal courthouse?

 

Yes I was thinking about that spot. Remember the old Courthouse Plaza proposal. That would work, courts and jail. Done

 

 

 

 

 

I think this is brilliant site and plan! Kudos

Some of these locations would have some really great cell views.

Some of these locations would have some really great views.

 

I don't want the jail down there though.  Forget that.  Put the jail elsewhere, of course. 

 

I think this is brilliant site and plan! Kudos

 

Needs to be a lot bigger. It would  be like adding two more buildings the size of the existing federal courthouse tower.

I am still fine with that at this location.

How about the existing surface lot on the north-west corner of St. Clair and W. 3rd.  Although that site may be too small. You build the new jail/police HQ building there, demolish the existing jail and HQ and build a new court tower at those existing locations with a parking garage that could be linked below ground.  You do this in phases, demolish the existing court tower and it opens up at least some of the existing JC site for redevelopment.

Another motivation for the county to replace the Justice Center complex?

 

Justice Center to close at noon because of low water pressure

http://www.cleveland.com/cuyahoga-county/index.ssf/2016/02/justice_center_to_close_at_noon_because_of_low_water_pressure.html

We are going to be inundated with stories like this over the next year. It's how you quietly shape public opinion. It started last month with judges complaining about parking problems at the Huntington garage. Never mind the fact 800 employees that previously used the garage moved to East 9th two years ago.

I think moving The justice center From it's central location is mistake.

 

Here would be my preferred locations.

 

 

 

 

That'd be great for helping bridge the Downtown and the Mall to the Lakefront, but I doubt we'll ever see any sort of gov't facility go over rail tracks- its been noted that it's seen as creating a vulnerability to terrorist attacks.

The railroads also don't like non-railroad buildings built over their tracks, especially tracks that host hazardous materials.

The railroads also don't like non-railroad buildings built over their tracks, especially tracks that host hazardous materials.

 

Could be a good way to get that hazmat traffic routed elsewhere!  I'm surprised that they can haul hazmat through there when supposedly trucks cannot?

The railroads also don't like non-railroad buildings built over their tracks, especially tracks that host hazardous materials.

 

Could be a good way to get that hazmat traffic routed elsewhere!  I'm surprised that they can haul hazmat through there when supposedly trucks cannot?

 

Because the railroads own their properties and rights of way, all of which pass through populous cities because cities grew up around them. Trucking companies don't. The public owns the roadways. The railroads' defensible legal standing is -- if you want us to run freight trains around cities to benefit the public interest, then the public has to pay for it. New railroad lines accommodating frequent, heavy-duty freight traffic cost $20 million to $50 million per mile to build from scratch. And that pretty much ends the conversation.

 

I do like what biker16 is proposing and what his subplot is -- to remove the Shoreway bridges over the Cuyahoga Valley and over West 3rd/railroad tracks. A relocated Justice Center would do that.

 

But I also think a Justice Center at Prospect/East 14th is an easy walk to some law offices and others could eventually relocate to nearby office buildings (Hanna, US Bank, Keith, etc). Once upon a time, the Justice Center stood for 40 years beyond the downtown fringe (on Payne) with few law offices immediately close by. Somehow the defense lawyers managed to survive.

 

 

^Right, as you as point out, the shoreway bridge is above grade on those two sites, so it's not as simple as spanning it like the rail beds.  For various reasons, the location immediately north of the old county courthouse would be a non-starter, I'm guessing. But "the pit" might be a candidate, especially for the court and jail functions. Would give that West third WFL station some relevance for more than 10 days a year.

I was thinking along those same lines when I proposed this.

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,30352.msg786730.html#msg786730

Cuyahoga County judges feel left out of talks about relocating Justice Center

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio — Five Cuyahoga County judges want a say in the future of the downtown Justice Center as the county decides whether to reallocate from the 40-year-old building at Ontario Street and Lakeside Avenue.

 

The judges issued an open letter Friday admonishing Cuyahoga County Executive Armond Budish's decision to hire an outside agency to examine the construction of a new justice center without consulting the building's judicial tenants.

 

"It would be advisable, when deciding whether it is feasible to replace the Justice Center, to sit down with the stakeholders to discuss what their primary needs would be for a new complex," the letter says.

 

 

http://www.cleveland.com/court-justice/index.ssf/2016/03/cuyahoga_county_judges_feel_le.html#incart_m-rpt-1