If they Mayor is concerned about terrorist attacks on Public Square, how would he ever support building our police and courts over tracks that could carry hazmat under them. 

 

He's not concerned.

IMHO If there ever is a sale of this complex, it should be divided up into parcels perhaps with an alley through the middle.  We've got enough room for mega-projects.

Last month I had lunch with someone whose company does lots of planning and engineering work for public sector clients, including the city and county. I was discussing the multi-modal station on the lakefront and he said the big pedestrian bridge, as designed, would cost too much. I said, why not build the new justice center over the tracks? He thought it was an interesting idea.

 

This sounds insanely expensive to me.

One way it helps is to significantly tighten up the for-lease office market. I posted in the downtown office market thread that at least one broker is projecting vacancies to decline to just 7 percent in a few years. If you want more new office construction downtown, that's very good news.

 

Exactly. I don't see how this isn't a positive particularly because they are going into the for lease office market as a big tenant. Makes sense

Last month I had lunch with someone whose company does lots of planning and engineering work for public sector clients, including the city and county. I was discussing the multi-modal station on the lakefront and he said the big pedestrian bridge, as designed, would cost too much. I said, why not build the new justice center over the tracks? He thought it was an interesting idea.

 

This sounds insanely expensive to me.

 

Depends. The cost could be kept down if most of the vertical structure is built on the city-owned land where the Amtrak station is, with lesser structures such as walkways or parking decks built over the tracks and/or Shoreway. And this brings in federal money to build the transportation center on the ground floor, with the justice center built above. The end result is that the foundation is paid for by non-local sources.

^I have a bad habit of being a downer, but building on top of an active transportation center, on a site withe somewhat challenging construction staging just sounds super expensive to me. Also, would federal money be automatic? Or is the idea that in this scenario the city could submit a stronger application for a competitive transportation grant than the previous tries?

The city would get a federal grant if it fills the gap in funding, not be the leading source of funding. The latter is what the city has been trying to do with the multi-modal station so far, without success.

Does anyone know who is interested is buying the Cleveland Police Dept Building & for what purpose?

Last month I had lunch with someone whose company does lots of planning and engineering work for public sector clients, including the city and county. I was discussing the multi-modal station on the lakefront and he said the big pedestrian bridge, as designed, would cost too much. I said, why not build the new justice center over the tracks? He thought it was an interesting idea.

 

This sounds insanely expensive to me.

 

Depends. The cost could be kept down if most of the vertical structure is built on the city-owned land where the Amtrak station is, with lesser structures such as walkways or parking decks built over the tracks and/or Shoreway. And this brings in federal money to build the transportation center on the ground floor, with the justice center built above. The end result is that the foundation is paid for by non-local sources.

 

Expensive yes.  This kind of structure straddling an existing active rail line would be expensive.    But if built on solid ground at 21st and Payne could excess funds be available for the Waterfront Line loop?

I wouldn't build a vertical structure over the rail line either. But a horizontal structure, such as a plaza/promenade is more of what I had in mind.

 

With RTA's declining tax base, it won't be able to afford running the existing Waterfront Line (and many bus routes) much longer. If expanded service is desired, then significant new sources of revenue are needed.

Does anyone know who is interested is buying the Cleveland Police Dept Building & for what purpose?

 

Great question

Does anyone know who is interested is buying the Cleveland Police Dept Building & for what purpose?

 

Great question

 

Third paragraph

"One would authorize selling to the county the city's building at the Justice Center complex. The building houses the city's police headquarters and the city jail. Cuyahoga County owns other buildings in the complex that house city and county courts and the county jail."

 

I'm not fully sure how I feel about the move to 55 PS. It would be closer to transit and taking up a big chunk of office vacancy, but its still a police station in a prime location. Brings alot more office workers to be going out and using the square during the day though. I love the idea of the County taking over the city jails for sure. Baby steps for regionalism...

^Yeah, I'm not sure it says anything good about the success of Public Square or the health of the downtown office market if the police department finds it worthwhile to rent so much space in a commercial office building in that location. If anything, I would have hoped a residential developer would bid enough based on the option of later conversion to preclude this kind of tenancy.

If you want to see new buildings in the sky, you should support driving down office vacancy. That's a huge tenant. 107,000 sf. That's a good thing

I wouldn't build a vertical structure over the rail line either. But a horizontal structure, such as a plaza/promenade is more of what I had in mind.

 

With RTA's declining tax base, it won't be able to afford running the existing Waterfront Line (and many bus routes) much longer. If expanded service is desired, then significant new sources of revenue are needed.

 

Another reason for East Cleveland to merge into Cleveland... The population would jut back above 400,000 and open us up to new funds

I wouldn't build a vertical structure over the rail line either. But a horizontal structure, such as a plaza/promenade is more of what I had in mind.

 

With RTA's declining tax base, it won't be able to afford running the existing Waterfront Line (and many bus routes) much longer. If expanded service is desired, then significant new sources of revenue are needed.

 

Another reason for East Cleveland to merge into Cleveland... The population would jut back above 400,000 and open us up to new funds

 

Right now Cleveland/East Cle would sit around 406,000. The rate of loss in both cities would put the population back just below 400,000 by 2020. That's assuming the estimates aren't way over for industrial city urban areas like they were in 2010.

I wouldn't build a vertical structure over the rail line either. But a horizontal structure, such as a plaza/promenade is more of what I had in mind.

 

With RTA's declining tax base, it won't be able to afford running the existing Waterfront Line (and many bus routes) much longer. If expanded service is desired, then significant new sources of revenue are needed.

 

Another reason for East Cleveland to merge into Cleveland... The population would jut back above 400,000 and open us up to new funds

 

Right now Cleveland/East Cle would sit around 406,000. The rate of loss in both cities would put the population back just below 400,000 by 2020. That's assuming the estimates aren't way over for industrial city urban areas like they were in 2010.

 

And Cleveland would get to take on an even higher poverty rate than it currently enjoys likely giving it the title of America's poorest city again.   

With the Police department moving and rumors of building a new justice center possibly on the the Jacobs lot downtown, What will happen to the current Justice Center/Police Department/County Jail complex. Tear Down or Convert to apartments if possible?  http://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2017/04/the-cleveland-skyscraper-building-binge.html 

^I still can't say I'm for moving the JC.  The market hasn't been strong enough to justify building on the lots in the Parking Lot District for 40 years now; I don't see how opening up another superblock one intersection away will lure developers to build on the site.  I think we'll just be looking at another huge hole downtown for years to come- right next to the huge hole in the middle of the Parking Lot District, seemingly created in part for the JC in the first place.

 

I would love to be completely wrong- and hopefully I am.  However I just don't see developers tripping over themselves at the chance to build at the site of the current JC if the choice is made to move the JC to Public Square (can't say that's appealing either, especially if the jail is attached). 

 

Moving the JC to Public Square would be an error felt for generations.  Build it on the parking lots west of the Jacobs lot, but not on it.

^I still can't say I'm for moving the JC.  The market hasn't been strong enough to justify building on the lots in the Parking Lot District for 40 years now; I don't see how opening up another superblock one intersection away will lure developers to build on the site.  I think we'll just be looking at another huge hole downtown for years to come- right next to the huge hole in the middle of the Parking Lot District, seemingly created in part for the JC in the first place.

 

I would love to be completely wrong- and hopefully I am.  However I just don't see developers tripping over themselves at the chance to build at the site of the current JC if the choice is made to move the JC to Public Square (can't say that's appealing either, especially if the jail is attached). 

 

 

Look though, at how terrible it is. An empty lot at least gives the hope for something decent. The current JC just kills any hope of a vibrant street.

^I still can't say I'm for moving the JC.  The market hasn't been strong enough to justify building on the lots in the Parking Lot District for 40 years now; I don't see how opening up another superblock one intersection away will lure developers to build on the site.  I think we'll just be looking at another huge hole downtown for years to come- right next to the huge hole in the middle of the Parking Lot District, seemingly created in part for the JC in the first place.

 

I would love to be completely wrong- and hopefully I am.  However I just don't see developers tripping over themselves at the chance to build at the site of the current JC if the choice is made to move the JC to Public Square (can't say that's appealing either, especially if the jail is attached). 

 

 

 

 

Okay, valid point and noted... But what does a JC next to Public Square mean for our now-vibrant city center???

 

Look though, at how terrible it is. An empty lot at least gives the hope for something decent. The current JC just kills any hope of a vibrant street.

^I still can't say I'm for moving the JC.  The market hasn't been strong enough to justify building on the lots in the Parking Lot District for 40 years now; I don't see how opening up another superblock one intersection away will lure developers to build on the site.  I think we'll just be looking at another huge hole downtown for years to come- right next to the huge hole in the middle of the Parking Lot District, seemingly created in part for the JC in the first place.

 

I would love to be completely wrong- and hopefully I am.  However I just don't see developers tripping over themselves at the chance to build at the site of the current JC if the choice is made to move the JC to Public Square (can't say that's appealing either, especially if the jail is attached). 

 

 

Okay, valid point and noted... But what does a JC next to Public Square mean for our now-vibrant city center???

 

Look though, at how terrible it is. An empty lot at least gives the hope for something decent. The current JC just kills any hope of a vibrant street.

 

The design can be improved at the new location. A jail doesn't have to look like a jail. The sidewalk doesn't have to front blank wall space.

^I still can't say I'm for moving the JC.  The market hasn't been strong enough to justify building on the lots in the Parking Lot District for 40 years now; I don't see how opening up another superblock one intersection away will lure developers to build on the site.  I think we'll just be looking at another huge hole downtown for years to come- right next to the huge hole in the middle of the Parking Lot District, seemingly created in part for the JC in the first place.

 

I would love to be completely wrong- and hopefully I am.  However I just don't see developers tripping over themselves at the chance to build at the site of the current JC if the choice is made to move the JC to Public Square (can't say that's appealing either, especially if the jail is attached). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Look though, at how terrible it is. An empty lot at least gives the hope for something decent. The current JC just kills any hope of a vibrant street.

 

Okay, valid point and noted... But what does a JC next to Public Square mean for our now-vibrant city center???

^I still can't say I'm for moving the JC.  The market hasn't been strong enough to justify building on the lots in the Parking Lot District for 40 years now; I don't see how opening up another superblock one intersection away will lure developers to build on the site.  I think we'll just be looking at another huge hole downtown for years to come- right next to the huge hole in the middle of the Parking Lot District, seemingly created in part for the JC in the first place.

 

I would love to be completely wrong- and hopefully I am.  However I just don't see developers tripping over themselves at the chance to build at the site of the current JC if the choice is made to move the JC to Public Square (can't say that's appealing either, especially if the jail is attached). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Look though, at how terrible it is. An empty lot at least gives the hope for something decent. The current JC just kills any hope of a vibrant street.

 

Okay, valid point and noted... But what does a JC next to Public Square mean for our now-vibrant city center???

 

See above. That's all dependent on the design. Anything in proximity to Public Square should come under strict scrutiny to follow good urban design. The current JD deserves to occupy space directly next to Cleveland Municipal Stadium, at the bottom of the Lake.

It just needs to not be brutalist.  Public Square offers some transit benefits but I agree it's not an ideal location.  Certainly not for the county jail.

Foremost, the Justice Center is an office building and county courthouse. How many Ohio cities and towns have courthouses on their public squares? Too many to count.

 

The ground floor of any county courthouse will a public atrium with perhaps 5-10 levels of parking/loading docks below ground and then, above the atrium, the sheriff's department, several floors of data/records storage, some 30 floors of jail space, then another 20 stories of county court rooms, clerks and offices.

The courthouse square arrangement is less common in major cities, where presumably that kind of real estate is worth more.  Maybe we could do something like Franklin County's?  It's a tower/complex on the south edge of downtown.

Then again, the county may prefer to rebuild the existing Justice Center. Or they could build a new tower on the existing Justice Center footprint. The latter is made possible by acquiring the CPD headquarters. The county could demolish it for a new courthouse tower while keeping the existing jail structures for at least a little while longer. And/or the existing Justice Center tower could be gutted and rebuilt as the jail or demolished for a new jail. Regardless of these options, it greatly simplifies the logistics for prisoner handling during trials and the county doesn't have to acquire property.

 

However -- I get the sense from the county that they like the public-private partnership approach that was taken with their recent major building projects (administration building, medical mart, and convention center), all of which were completed on time and on/under budget.

Then again, the county may prefer to rebuild the existing Justice Center. Or they could build a new tower on the existing Justice Center footprint. The latter is made possible by acquiring the CPD headquarters. The county could demolish it for a new courthouse tower while keeping the existing jail structures for at least a little while longer. And/or the existing Justice Center tower could be gutted and rebuilt as the jail or demolished for a new jail. Regardless of these options, it greatly simplifies the logistics for prisoner handling during trials and the county doesn't have to acquire property.

 

However -- I get the sense from the county that they like the public-private partnership approach that was taken with their recent major building projects (administration building, medical mart, and convention center), all of which were completed on time and on/under budget.

 

I had the same thoughts as your first paragraph, and would totally be ok with that idea.

 

I am not a fan of the 55PS building, it is not a significant piece of architecture on the CLE skyline, and would not be sorry to see it go. That being said; then build a tower on the Jacobs lot, demolish the 55PS building, and build a new CPHQ in the place of the 55PS.

55 Public Square isn't proposed to be demolished.

 

EDIT: BTW, between 1828 and 1912, there were four Cuyahoga County Courthouses and jails on different properties between the NW corner of Public Square, along West Rockwell and Seneca Street/West 3rd. Those sites are occupied today by 75 Public Square and 55 Public Square.

 

Also, the primary federal courthouse was on Public Square for a century, until 2002. Some federal court offices remain there.

 

Here are several of the county courthouses that were on the NW corner of Public Square, starting with the 1828 courthouse....

 

 

 

 

This was the third courthouse, built in 1860, and was expanded with two more floors as part of the 1884 expansion

 

 

 

This is the 1860 courthouse before it was expanded in 1884 -- but with a 21st-century city mashed up around it!

 

55 Public Square isn't proposed to be demolished.

 

I didn't say it was. Just presenting an idea.

Then again, the county may prefer to rebuild the existing Justice Center. Or they could build a new tower on the existing Justice Center footprint. The latter is made possible by acquiring the CPD headquarters. The county could demolish it for a new courthouse tower while keeping the existing jail structures for at least a little while longer. And/or the existing Justice Center tower could be gutted and rebuilt as the jail or demolished for a new jail. Regardless of these options, it greatly simplifies the logistics for prisoner handling during trials and the county doesn't have to acquire property.

 

Something like this seems pretty likely. Removing the police gives the county staging flexibility to move pieces around until they have a finished space. I'm guessing the final product will include a major new public parking facility to serve the Convention Center, too.

The courthouse square arrangement is less common in major cities, where presumably that kind of real estate is worth more.  Maybe we could do something like Franklin County's?  It's a tower/complex on the south edge of downtown.

 

I agree!

 

With this in mind I would push for

 

A.  22nd and Payne (old 3rd district HQ complex).  Great reuse of that historic building with a new tower next to it.  Not great for transit though.

 

B. 14th and Broadway in the area of the Main Post Office.  It takes the jail out the middle of the city (there is the women's facility in the neighborhood already), and may spur development around it in a desolate area.  Plus, the Red Line could get a 14th st stop for transit access as pointed out in KJPs TOD dream segment on another thread.

The courthouse square arrangement is less common in major cities, where presumably that kind of real estate is worth more.  Maybe we could do something like Franklin County's?  It's a tower/complex on the south edge of downtown.

 

I agree!

 

With this in mind I would push for

 

A.  22nd and Payne (old 3rd district HQ complex).  Great reuse of that historic building with a new tower next to it.  Not great for transit though.

 

B. 14th and Broadway in the area of the Main Post Office.  It takes the jail out the middle of the city (there is the women's facility in the neighborhood already), and may spur development around it in a desolate area.  Plus, the Red Line could get a 14th st stop for transit access as pointed out in KJPs TOD dream segment on another thread.

 

Not only would this likely not happen but I wouldn't support it if it did. Moving it out of the center of downtown could blow a hole in the buildings around it, as there are many lawyers and related tenants who are downtown primarily (or solely in some cases) because of their proximity to the Justice Center and their ability to get there quickly. So moving the Justice Center that far out is not only unnecessary but could have unintended consequences that could harm downtown.

 

I hope the Justice Center is rebuilt, but rebuilt with the area around it in mind this time. It could have a better interaction with the sidewalk, and maybe a couple of street facing retail (like a couple of restaurants). If they build this right, it could have a very positive impact on downtown

If the shoreway were re-routed to run north of the railroad tracks, the land that is west of West 3, north of Lakeside and East of 6th would make a perfect location for the new Justice Center.  Local governments already own most of the land.

Something like this

I am not a fan of the 55PS building, it is not a significant piece of architecture on the CLE skyline, and would not be sorry to see it go. That being said; then build a tower on the Jacobs lot, demolish the 55PS building, and build a new CPHQ in the place of the 55PS.

 

I am. 55 Public Square is nicely representative of its time and is elegantly proportioned. My worry is that whatever gets built on the Jacob block will ruin the striking view of 55 Public Square from the Square and along west Superior.

 

Re: the Justice Center, it makes logistical sense to put the courthouse near the jail to minimize prisoner transportation problems and expense. Police Hqs, however, could be remotely sited.

Cleveland City Council approves closing jail, selling police headquarter

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio - Cleveland City Council voted Monday to approve legislation to close the city's jail and to pay Cuyahoga County to house prisoners and suspects.

 

Council also voted to sell the downtown building that houses the city jail and police headquarters to Cuyahoga County. With closure of the jail, the headquarters could be moved to another building downtown.

 

The long-discussed deal is expected to save Cleveland about $5 million a year. Rather than operating a jail, the city would pay the county $99 a day per person to house its prisoners. 

 

The Cuyahoga County sheriff's staff would handle the booking of all prisoners. 

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2017/06/cleveland_city_council_to_appr.html#incart_m-rpt-1

The move will take a full 1% of the Class B office space off the downtown Cleveland market. But, more importantly for this thread, this is the first move toward the construction or renovation of the Justice Center complex.

So with services being consolidated with Cuyahoga County -  Does that mean that services will still be at the jail downtown  or  are they being moved to the

overflow jail off I-271?  http://www.cleveland19.com/story/35599370/city-county-officials-agree-to-consolidate-clevelands-jail-operations

Cuyahoga County to hire consultant to help determine future of Justice Center

Updated on July 19, 2017 at 12:41 PM Posted on July 19, 2017 at 12:33 PM

By Karen Farkas, cleveland.com kfarkasCleveland[/member].com

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio - Cuyahoga County plans to hire a consultant to help officials determine the future of the Justice Center.

 

The consultant will assist the county and those who work in the Justice Center to "review facility requirements and opportunities," according to a request for qualifications issued by the county's public works department. "This may include reviewing options for renovating the entire complex, constructing a new one, or a combination of approaches."

 

For four years, county officials have considered the future of the 41-year-old complex, which sits on prime land for development. They have commissioned reports and met with judges and other tenants of the building.

 

MORE:

http://www.cleveland.com/cuyahoga-county/index.ssf/2017/07/cuyahoga_county_to_hire_consultant_to_help_determine_future_of_justice_center.html

Now with CPD on its way out of the complex, I could see the county demolishing that building, putting a new "jail one" there (while keeping jail two), and then building a new courts tower where the current jail one is. The current tower can then be sold off and rehabbed, or demolished and the land sold.

 

As I was sitting in traffic this afternoon on the shoreway, I was thinking the current tower could look pretty good if it was reclad in a similar way to First Canada Place in Toronto. That building previously was clad in white marble which became filthy and an eyesore - not to mention occasionally falling off. They replaced all the panel with white glass in 2012.

Justice Center water tank flooding repairs cost $220,000

Posted on August 9, 2017 at 11:53 AM

By Karen Farkas, cleveland.com kfarkasCleveland[/member].com

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio - Cuyahoga County has spent $220,000 to repair damage to courtrooms and other areas of the Justice Center following a water tank rupture.

 

County Council on Tuesday approved the spending. Council also agreed to transfer $1.2 million out of a fund intended to create a central booking facility, where all of the county's felony suspects would be brought and where prosecutors would determine what charges to file.

 

The project will not proceed because the county doesn't know what to do with the aging building.

 

MORE:

http://www.cleveland.com/cuyahoga-county/index.ssf/2017/08/justice_center_water_tank_flooding_repairs_cost_220000.html

Cleveland police headquarters to stay in Justice Center for at least two years under deal with Cuyahoga County

 

Updated on September 26, 2017 at 3:26 PM Posted on September 25, 2017 at 2:57 PM

 

By Karen Farkas, cleveland  com kfarkasCleveland[/member]  com

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio - Cleveland's police headquarters will remain in the downtown Justice Center for at least two years under a revised agreement to sell the building to Cuyahoga County.

 

County Council is expected to approve several resolutions to finalize the deal on Tuesday.

 

According to the revised agreement, the county will buy the police headquarters for $9.25 million and the title of the building will be transferred on Oct. 2, 2018. Until then the county will pay the city $1 to lease three floors of the building and half the parking spaces in the underground garage.

 

The county, which is beginning budget discussions and expects to impose cuts, will have a year to pay for the building from its general fund and reserves.

 

Once the deal closes, the city can lease the building from the county until Oct. 1 2019 for $10 per square foot per year plus parking fees, according to the resolution. The city will also pay a share of utilities.

 

The agreement was reached after months of discussions following the announcement in June that the county would take over the city's jail operations and purchase the headquarters building.

 

What you need to know about the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County jail agreement

 

The city had issued a request for proposals to relocate its headquarters. The request said it was seeking to move by the end of March 2018...

 

cleveland    com

 

 

Cuyahoga County to hire consultant to help determine future of Justice Center

Updated on July 19, 2017 at 12:41 PM Posted on July 19, 2017 at 12:33 PM

By Karen Farkas, cleveland  com kfarkasCleveland[/member]  com

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio - Cuyahoga County plans to hire a consultant to help officials determine the future of the Justice Center.

 

The consultant will assist the county and those who work in the Justice Center to "review facility requirements and opportunities," according to a request for qualifications issued by the county's public works department. "This may include reviewing options for renovating the entire complex, constructing a new one, or a combination of approaches."

 

For four years, county officials have considered the future of the 41-year-old complex, which sits on prime land for development. They have commissioned reports and met with judges and other tenants of the building.

 

MORE:

cleveland  com/cuyahoga-county/index.ssf/2017/07/cuyahoga_county_to_hire_consultant_to_help_determine_future_of_justice_center.html

For four years, county officials have considered the future of the 41-year-old complex, which sits on prime land for development.

 

I'm so tired of hearing this term in Cleveland.  If it's such "prime land", why are there a sea of parking lots around it? 

Because the city treats parking lots as prime development.

Cuyahoga County to pay $800,000 to consultant to study future of Justice Center

 

Cuyahoga County is expected to pay $800,000 for a consultant to study the future of the Justice Center.

 

A resolution to hire Project Management Consultants of Cleveland will be introduced at County Council's meeting on Tuesday. It will be referred to a committee for discussion.

 

The firm will provide services through Jan. 31, 2020 and the "primary goal of these services will be to assist the County and justice system stakeholders to review facility requirements and opportunities, inform decision-making, and facilitate project delivery as determined by the County," says a memo from the Public Works Department to council. "This may include reviewing options for renovating the entire complex, constructing a new one, or a combination of approaches."

 

MORE: http://www.cleveland.com/cuyahoga-county/index.ssf/2018/01/cuyahoga_county_chooses_consultant_to_determine_future_of_justice_center.html

How does this study differ from the previous ones??

Probably just kicks the can down the road for two more years