it differs because someone new is getting the $800,000

 

However.... I didn't realize that past studies did not include the possibility of rebuilding/relocating the jails. They only looked at rebuilding/relocating the courts tower and police HQ. Now they're looking at relocating/rebuilding the whole complex. Now that's something I can get behind.

 

BTW, in the article where this was mentioned....

 

The complex, which takes up a city block between St. Clair Avenue and Lakeside Avenue, includes a 25-story court tower, 10-story jail, 11-story jail addition, nine-story Cleveland police department headquarters and 432,500 square feet of underground parking.

 

....I couldn't help but add those up to a 55-story building (exclusive of the parking)! I know, I know....wishful thinking.

How many consultants does it take? Easy. As many as it takes to find the answer you really want.

....I couldn't help but add those up to a 55-story building (exclusive of the parking)! I know, I know....wishful thinking.

 

Would look great on the Jacobs lot on Public Square

....I couldn't help but add those up to a 55-story building (exclusive of the parking)! I know, I know....wishful thinking.

 

Would look great on the Jacobs lot on Public Square

 

As an attorney, I pray to God the Justice Center is never 55 stories. It takes 15 minutes to get to the 10th floor on those elevators lol.

 

Nonetheless, while complaining, I'd love to see any Skyline addition. Everytime I drive by the Eaton HQ in Beachwood I'm always like, we could stack that for 35+ stories lol.

I don't think I want to see a jail tower on Public Square no matter how tall it is.

I don't think I want to see a jail tower on Public Square no matter how tall it is.

 

It could be hidden in back. 

 

This may be one of those great chances for a public/private partnership--a court tower with rental space included in the tower. 

I don't think I want to see a jail tower on Public Square no matter how tall it is.

 

It could be hidden in back. 

 

This may be one of those great chances for a public/private partnership--a court tower with rental space included in the tower. 

 

In back of what?

I don't think I want to see a jail tower on Public Square no matter how tall it is.

 

It could be hidden in back. 

 

This may be one of those great chances for a public/private partnership--a court tower with rental space included in the tower. 

 

In back of what?

 

Just spitballing here.... I would never want my office to be in the same building as a courthouse. Ever.

I don't think I want to see a jail tower on Public Square no matter how tall it is.

 

It could be hidden in back. 

 

This may be one of those great chances for a public/private partnership--a court tower with rental space included in the tower. 

 

In back of what?

 

On the W3rd side or perhaps even on the next block to the west, with an integrated parking/Police HQ structure. 

....I couldn't help but add those up to a 55-story building (exclusive of the parking)! I know, I know....wishful thinking.

 

Would look great on the Jacobs lot on Public Square

 

As an attorney, I pray to God the Justice Center is never 55 stories. It takes 15 minutes to get to the 10th floor on those elevators lol.

 

Nonetheless, while complaining, I'd love to see any Skyline addition. Everytime I drive by the Eaton HQ in Beachwood I'm always like, we could stack that for 35+ stories lol.

 

Same when seeing Progressive in Mayfield Hts (was supposed to be a 800' downtown tower) and American Greetings sitting out in Westlake/Crocker Park.

I don't think I want to see a jail tower on Public Square no matter how tall it is.

 

It could be hidden in back. 

 

This may be one of those great chances for a public/private partnership--a court tower with rental space included in the tower. 

 

In back of what?

 

On the W3rd side or perhaps even on the next block to the west, with an integrated parking/Police HQ structure.

 

Bad idea on all levels.

I don't think I want to see a jail tower on Public Square no matter how tall it is.

 

It could be hidden in back. 

 

This may be one of those great chances for a public/private partnership--a court tower with rental space included in the tower. 

 

In back of what?

 

On the W3rd side or perhaps even on the next block to the west, with an integrated parking/Police HQ structure.

 

Bad idea on all levels.

 

What's your grand idea then? Please share.

First off, no corp/developer will do a public/private deal to be in the same building with Cleveland's Police Headquarters/Jail/Courthouse, regardless of location.

 

Secondly, that location on Public Square, although vacant now for about 28 years, is still too valuable for what you propose, even without the private part of your equation.

 

Third, the long vacant football fields in the warehouse district are marked for residential construction.  Cleveland needs new residents with paychecks in a prime downtown location, not the location for its new jail house.

 

I know there's speculation about a new Sherwin-Williams headquarters, so that's what needs to go on Public Square or some other commercial/mixed use project, not the new police headquarters.

 

Put it adjacent to the new and currently unnecessary E 34th Rapid Station so RTA can at least get some ridership increase for its buck at a station that will otherwise serve maybe 0 to 2 riders/day.  That's a nice closer-in to downtown location.

 

Who wants to point out new development on Cleveland's Public Square, or really any other prime downtown location for that matter, as being the new jailhouse? Ugh.  Why would the current Justice Center be relocated, in part to open that land for development, to vacant land in an even more prominent location on Public Square? That makes no sense.

 

Unlike what will happen in Cleveland, Dan Gilbert has agreed to build Wayne Co's new justice center in a location further out from downtown Detroit to build his MLS Stadium or at a minimum get control over this location for other development.

 

However, like Detroit, expect Cuyahoga County's new Justice Center to see huge cost overruns.

 

 

First off, no corp/developer will do a public/private deal to be in the same building with Cleveland's Police Headquarters/Jail/Courthouse, regardless of location.

 

Secondly, that location on Public Square, although vacant now for about 28 years, is still too valuable for what you propose, even without the private part of your equation.

 

Third, the long vacant football fields in the warehouse district are marked for residential construction.  Cleveland needs new residents with paychecks in a prime downtown location, not the location for its new jail house.

 

I know there's speculation about a new Sherwin-Williams headquarters, so that's what needs to go on Public Square or some other commercial/mixed use project, not the new police headquarters.

 

Put it adjacent to the new and currently unnecessary E 34th Rapid Station so RTA can at least get some ridership increase for its buck at a station that will otherwise serve maybe 0 to 2 riders/day.  That's a nice closer-in to downtown location.

 

Who wants to point out new development on Cleveland's Public Square, or really any other prime downtown location for that matter, as being the new jailhouse? Ugh.

 

Unlike what will happen in Cleveland, Dan Gilbert has agreed to build Wayne Co's new justice center in a location further out from downtown Detroit to build his MLS Stadium or at a minimum get control over this location for other development.

 

However, like Detroit, expect Cuyahoga County's new Justice Center to see huge cost overruns.

 

A certain county building was already built in a public private partnership.  also, the most recent public-private buildings were completed ahead of schedule and under budget. 

First off, no corp/developer will do a public/private deal to be in the same building with Cleveland's Police Headquarters/Jail/Courthouse, regardless of location.

 

Secondly, that location on Public Square, although vacant now for about 28 years, is still too valuable for what you propose, even without the private part of your equation.

 

Third, the long vacant football fields in the warehouse district are marked for residential construction.  Cleveland needs new residents with paychecks in a prime downtown location, not the location for its new jail house.

 

Is your first reference to the MedMart or County Building on E 9th?

 

I know there's speculation about a new Sherwin-Williams headquarters, so that's what needs to go on Public Square or some other commercial/mixed use project, not the new police headquarters.

 

Put it adjacent to the new and currently unnecessary E 34th Rapid Station so RTA can at least get some ridership increase for its buck at a station that will otherwise serve maybe 0 to 2 riders/day.  That's a nice closer-in to downtown location.

 

Who wants to point out new development on Cleveland's Public Square, or really any other prime downtown location for that matter, as being the new jailhouse? Ugh.

 

Unlike what will happen in Cleveland, Dan Gilbert has agreed to build Wayne Co's new justice center in a location further out from downtown Detroit to build his MLS Stadium or at a minimum get control over this location for other development.

 

However, like Detroit, expect Cuyahoga County's new Justice Center to see huge cost overruns.

 

A certain county building was already built in a public private partnership.  also, the most recent public-private buildings were completed ahead of schedule and under budget.

 

Are you referring to the Hilton Hotel on the latter?  Not exactly akin to, for example, Sherwin-Williams being in the same building with the county courthouse, jailhouse, and police headquarters.

 

Is your first reference to the MedMart or County Building on E9th?

they don't need to be in the same building.  the county administration building was a public-private collaboration.  Geis built it and the county leases.  The same concept could be done for courts tower.

Well, that's a different point.  I was responding to the post wherein it was suggested that a private entity ie a corp like Sherwin-Williams would occupy part a new justice center.

 

It was a good deal for Geis; he built the new County Building adjacent to his ''9'' AmeriTrust Buidling project. 

 

Not sure if a new stand-alone Justice Center would work for or benefit a Geis type arrangement unless, perhaps, its adjacent to another current or future development he or another developer has in mind.  A new all-in-one Justice Center will be x$100s millions.

 

 

I don't think a private business would work inside the justice center.  Perhaps it could work if the jail were separated from the building and SW had their own entrance.

I can't see SW doing a partnership with the County for a new JC that it would occupy in part, even if the jail was not present and with a separate entrance.

 

Hopefully a new development will rise on PS akin to the plans of 30 years ago.

 

A new JC on PS makes no sense.

 

 

 

 

I don't mind the JC on Public Square as long as the ground floor has a coffee shop and/or restaurant with street presence. The JC generates a lot of day time foot traffic.  But yes, SW would be better on the square in their own building preferably with the aforementioned ground floor uses too.

I don't mind the JC on Public Square as long as the ground floor has a coffee shop and/or restaurant with street presence. The JC generates a lot of day time foot traffic.  But yes, SW would be better on the square in their own building preferably with the aforementioned ground floor uses too.

 

The new Justice Center needs to be VERY accessible to transit.  Many people going there for proceedings rely on public transit (along with a few lawyers I know commuting from Shaker).  The Public Square location is about as accessible as you can get, but so would the lots immediately to the west of it along the north side of Superior. 

 

In terms of the private/public suggestion I made above, I was thinking of the Geis County administration HQ.  Whatever it is the county needs to think outside the box again so we don't end up with a brutalist governement box built by the lowest bidder. 

The courthouse has historically either been on Public Square or very close to it. This still makes sense today as many law offices are close to Public Square and, of course, Public Square has been the hub of of public transportation for 170 years and counting. For logistics, at minimum a temporary holding jail needs to be very close to the courthouse and preferably connected to it in a way to allow secure prisoner transfers from cell to court room and back.

A new JC on PS makes no sense.

 

it actually makes a lot of sense if done right.. 

Then again, the reason courthouses were historically located on public squares and public spaces in Europe and New England (whose representatives designed ours) is so that the convicted could be punished in front of the public's eyes, be it in stockades, gallows or guillotines. That tradition doesn't diminish the accessibility aspect of today's needs, however. :)

The courthouse has historically either been on Public Square or very close to it.

 

Not entirely true, though. For several decades before the Justice Center was built, the criminal courts (and police HQ) were on East 21s Street: https://www.urbanohio.com/forum/index.php/topic,9853.msg115520.html#msg115520

Yes, that was exception. Yet, during that time, the federal courthouse was on the east side of Public Square. So there's always been a court presence on the square.

The courthouse has historically either been on Public Square or very close to it.

 

Not entirely true, though. For several decades before the Justice Center was built, the criminal courts (and police HQ) were on East 21s Street: https://www.urbanohio.com/forum/index.php/topic,9853.msg115520.html#msg115520

 

That's about as far away as it should go.

The courthouse has historically either been on Public Square or very close to it.

 

Not entirely true, though. For several decades before the Justice Center was built, the criminal courts (and police HQ) were on East 21s Street: https://www.urbanohio.com/forum/index.php/topic,9853.msg115520.html#msg115520

 

The difference between then and now was a transit system with much higher frequency via streetcars.  I'm sure many here would support a move back out to 21st if transit access was improved with it. 

^Definitely true. Along those lines, I wonder if some of the recently cleared development sites along the East 9th extension and RTA tracks would work for a new Justice Center + Transportation Center.  Direct access to all rail lines (with frequent trains to Tower City); potential for frequent bus service to the rest of downtown. A new rapid station would be expensive, the but development sites are totally cleared and graded.

That's where I proposed putting it before I proposed the East 14th/18th triangle....

https://www.urbanohio.com/forum/index.php/topic,30352.msg780212.html#msg780212

A new JC on PS makes no sense.

 

it actually makes a lot of sense if done right..

 

Why would the current JC be torn down perhaps to open up that land for development while a new JC is moved to an even more valuable location on PS?

That's where I proposed putting it before I proposed the East 14th/18th triangle....

https://www.urbanohio.com/forum/index.php/topic,30352.msg780212.html#msg780212

 

This works, complete with a new Rapid Transit Station, and, while they're at it, extend the Waterfront Line north-south along E 9th/E 14 or somewhere to loop it through the CBD (but I digress on the WFL topic).

I don't mind the JC on Public Square as long as the ground floor has a coffee shop and/or restaurant with street presence. The JC generates a lot of day time foot traffic.  But yes, SW would be better on the square in their own building preferably with the aforementioned ground floor uses too.

 

The new Justice Center needs to be VERY accessible to transit.  Many people going there for proceedings rely on public transit (along with a few lawyers I know commuting from Shaker).  The Public Square location is about as accessible as you can get, but so would the lots immediately to the west of it along the north side of Superior. 

 

In terms of the private/public suggestion I made above, I was thinking of the Geis County administration HQ.  Whatever it is the county needs to think outside the box again so we don't end up with a brutalist governement box built by the lowest bidder.

 

Well, your original post didn't mention a Geis-type arrangement but did include a private/public sharing of the same building with a separate entrance etc; that's what I was responding to. I suppose there could be a Geis-type deal wherein Geis builds and owns the JC and leases it to the city/county.  Can't see that happening given the cost, size, and the JC being a stand alone structure.  Who knows.  We all know Geis isn't done with downtown Cleveland though.

 

Also, the Geis-County deal benefits Geis directly.  He has a structure attached/adjacent to the 9 with an attached parking garage for both.  County rent and a parking garage=great cash flow.  Plus the County Bldg could be used for other businesses etc if needed with hardly any build-out, if needed.

 

The courthouse has historically either been on Public Square or very close to it.

 

Not entirely true, though. For several decades before the Justice Center was built, the criminal courts (and police HQ) were on East 21s Street: https://www.urbanohio.com/forum/index.php/topic,9853.msg115520.html#msg115520

 

Right, those quaint 19th Century courthouses on PS have been gone for a long time.  As far as history goes, Standard Oil was traditionally on PS as well; that's why we lost the Williamson and Cuyahoga Buildings on PS for the ''new'' tombstone known, today, as 200 PS. 

Yes, that was exception. Yet, during that time, the federal courthouse was on the east side of Public Square. So there's always been a court presence on the square.

 

Wasn't that Federal Courthouse on PS originally the post office?  Again, though, the Federal Courthouse was moved off PS.  I don't understand why there has to be a courthouse on PS, let alone a jailhouse and police hdqt

There doesn't have to be anything. We're all just throwing out ideas because we like to share ideas and personal preferences.

There doesn't have to be anything. We're all just throwing out ideas because we like to share ideas and personal preferences.

 

Of course this is idea sharing and personal preference.  I prefer that the PS lot and the adjacent Warehouse District's massive parking lots be developed as a commercial to mixed-use on the Square and going forward with the proposed residential development in the WD.  As you know, up to 1,500 units are proposed on those WD lots.

 

I do like that E 14th triangle proposal.  Direct rapid transit service, closer-in to downtown location, and not on prime CBD land.

 

There is a ''but that's how it's always been'' or ''it's always been located there'' mentality in Cleveland.  Think 200 PS or Browns Stadium for example.

 

The idea of opening the current JC land for development by moving a new JC to PS 1 block away makes no sense to me, with or without a coffee shop on ground level.  The real issue with today's JC though is: age, brutalist '70s motif, long-term structural issues, and in today's downtown Cleveland, the land value for other development. 

 

 

 

 

I wish the narrative that the County is sitting on a real estate goldmine would die. The Jacobs and various Weston lots consist of 10 acres of contiguous surface parking. Stark controls another 5-6 acres  -- 3 acres in Gateway and another 3 in the WHD. Downtown is not lacking for so-called prime development land that nobody can seem to develop anything on. The buildings as currently comprised are worthless to a development group, and would require a fortune to demolish or a fortune to rehab. The end-result is the County getting peanuts in a potential sale.

 

/rant

I wish the narrative that the County is sitting on a real estate goldmine would die. The Jacobs and various Weston lots consist of 10 acres of contiguous surface parking. Stark controls another 5-6 acres  -- 3 acres in Gateway and another 3 in the WHD. Downtown is not lacking for so-called prime development land that nobody can seem to develop anything on. The buildings as currently comprised are worthless to a development group, and would require a fortune to demolish or a fortune to rehab. The end-result is the County getting peanuts in a potential sale.

 

/rant

 

True -- unless someone is pushing that narrative, such as Weston which I've theorized in my blog is behind all of this to build the police HQ and ultimately the Justice Center on its WHD lots in a 3P deal. Then, Weston would get the existing Justice Center site to do with it what it wants. Since the historic tax credits survived in the new tax law, the Justice Center's courthouse tower will be eligible for them right about the time the county is able to move out of it. BTW, here's that blog I referenced:

http://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2017/10/downtown-clevelands-next-big-building.html

I wish the narrative that the County is sitting on a real estate goldmine would die. The Jacobs and various Weston lots consist of 10 acres of contiguous surface parking. Stark controls another 5-6 acres  -- 3 acres in Gateway and another 3 in the WHD. Downtown is not lacking for so-called prime development land that nobody can seem to develop anything on. The buildings as currently comprised are worthless to a development group, and would require a fortune to demolish or a fortune to rehab. The end-result is the County getting peanuts in a potential sale.

 

/rant

 

History can easily repeat itself in downtown Cleveland.  Tearing down the current JC and having another large parking lot for x# of decades waiting for a developer to step in.  I would prefer an upgrade to the existing JC rather than having an empty lot there for decades.

 

Downtown Cleveland obviously needs commercial construction but that takes an expanding jobs picture. A new construction office building every 20 years isn't going to cut-it. 

 

Where is Sherwin-Williams on its new headquarters building?

Where is Sherwin-Williams on its new headquarters building?

 

The latest I've heard:

https://www.urbanohio.com/forum/index.php/topic,4266.msg883676.html#msg883676

Justice Center to be Cuyahoga County's most expensive endeavor

Updated Jan 17, 3:02 PM; Posted Jan 16

By Karen Farkas, cleveland.com kfarkasCleveland[/member].com

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio - Cuyahoga County's Justice Center poses the most expensive challenge officials will ever face - and County Council members don't want a renovation or the construction of a new complex to mirror the debacle of the Juvenile Justice Center.

 

A decision is expected by the end of this year on whether to repair the current complex or build at the same site or on another site, Public Works Director Michael Dever told council's Public Safety and Justice Affairs Committee on Tuesday.

 

MORE:

http://www.cleveland.com/cuyahoga-county/index.ssf/2018/01/justice_center_to_be_cuyahoga_countys_most_expensive_endeavor.html

Redirected from the downtown Cleveland office discussion......

 

Pure speculation on my part but my guess is both the large law firms will be out that building soon. A lot of large firms recently upgraded their space and I would expect Weston Hurd/Walter Haverfield to continue that trend.

 

Redirected from the Erieview thread since this is reckless speculation/wishful thinking...

 

I assume the Jacobs Group is aggressively marketing its Public Square lot. If so, sign Weston Hurd, TransDigm, and Walter Haverfield as the anchor tenants for a new tower on that lot.

 

Oh, and I hope Cuyahoga County will soon issue an RFP for building a new Justice Center with a lease/purchase option. If they do, I would think Weston would have the leg up with its Superblock on Superior. A parking deck wrapped with housing in the north half, facing St. Clair would be nice.

 

....End reckless speculation/wishful thinking

 

Unfortunately, I recall GOTTAPLAN stating in another thread recently that he was speaking to somebody with the city and the Weston superblock is all but dead.  I hope that is not the case but it seems to ring true because we have not heard a peep about it for almost a year, either positive or negative.  Those parking lots are like cockroaches.  They are going to out live us all.

 

That's why the Superblock is probably the best place for a new Justice Center, if the county will seriously consider one as soon as Project Management Consultants completes it report to the commissioners. I don't know when that will be, but they began their work earlier this year to develop build/rebuild option specs for a possible RFP and will remain under contract until Jan. 31, 2020. The Justice Center will be 50 years old in just eight years. That's when it will be eligible for historic tax credits to renovate it into housing, offices or perhaps a bit of both. Assuming an RFP for a new/rebuilt Justice Center is issued in 2019 and a new-build bid is favored, it could be designed and built in 3-4 years. The county moves out of the old Justice Center over the next few years until 2026 or perhaps even later (namely, from the 1995-built jail expansion) and into the new Justice Center while financing (including the historic tax credits) is stacked to convert the old Justice Center to new uses.

 

So if you wondered if the project was dead, it's not. It's just that our kids are punch-drunk....BTW, the only sentence worth reading in this irrelevant p---ing match is the last one. Best solution? Build it with the same oversight mechanism as the convention hotel, which was completed on-time and under budget.....

 

 

Edited November 17, 20186 yr by KJP

If a new Justice Center is built, my money is on the Weston Superblock as the site...

 

 

I think we'd be replacing one superblock for another... I may be a broken record on this but if there was a market for the block where the justice center is now, the superblock would have already been redeveloped (40+ years later) which is literally no more than a two minute walk away. Though I think it will be replaced, I hope the justice center remins where it is and is just renovated.

 

 

Except that, after 2026, state and federal historic tax credits can be used to redevelop the Justice Center tower, including the $25 million credit for big projects. Those aren't available to new construction. 

What I think would be a win win is if they build a new courts building on the super block, move the jail to somewhere over in the cedar/central area (Maybe the old juvenile jail?), tear down everything except the tower. I am strangely a fan of just the tower portion of the complex. The pedestrian interaction is atrocious at street level, so it would be nice to add a couple story glass atrium with maybe some amenities at the corner of Ontario and Lakeside, but other than that, I am all for keeping the tower. It would make a good residential conversion.

From the articles, it sounds like judges were holding out for control over the location of any new building.  But there's no indication of what locations they're for or against.