There was an article months ago in which the judges were describing how they want to keep the justice center downtown or in a transit-accessible location because they must be free and open to the public. Having their input is a good thing.

I know there are some logistical issues with having the jail somewhere else, but they should really consider moving the county jail to another location and keeping the courts Downtown.  Perhaps they could have a small jail space for those who have upcoming court dates.  Or even better yet, bail reform to reduce the amount of space needed. 

Edited December 20, 20186 yr by freefourur
a word

I'm all in on @YO to the CLE's vision for the Justice Center site. I would add that the court tower needs a modernized exterior. Not an added layer like the federal building, but a recladding like First Canadian Place in Toronto. But that may not possible with historic tax credit regulations.

 

And I agree with @freefourur about having a short-term jail facility downtown next to the courts. But there's no reason why 2,000 long-term prisoners need to be downtown, except that it artificially raises downtown population numbers. For that reason, I'd put the jail at my former preferred site for the Justice Center, at Carnegie between East 14th and 18th. The square footage requirements show it would be a significant structure and probably require some structured parking. Please, no more surface lots! And if they build it near the Inner Belt, all I ask is that its exterior not look like a jail.

2 hours ago, KJP said:

Except that, after 2026, state and federal historic tax credits can be used to redevelop the Justice Center tower, including the $25 million credit for big projects. Those aren't available to new construction. 

 

As someone who frequents that building, I pray to God no one redevelops it... but rather, implodes the sucker, buries all remnants of the building at least 600 ft below ground, then treat it the same way as we would an Indian burial ground, avoid it and respect all lost souls that remain on site. 

1 minute ago, YABO713 said:

 

As someone who frequents that building, I pray to God no one redevelops it... but rather, implodes the sucker, buries all remnants of the building at least 600 ft below ground, then treat it the same way as we would an Indian burial ground, avoid it and respect all lost souls that remain on site. 

 

Nuke it from space.  

5 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

As someone who frequents that building, I pray to God no one redevelops it... but rather, implodes the sucker, buries all remnants of the building at least 600 ft below ground, then treat it the same way as we would an Indian burial ground, avoid it and respect all lost souls that remain on site. 

 

If jails can be redeveloped, so can a courts tower. But I know what you mean. I was there at least once a week when I covered the city of Cleveland for Sun Newspapers. The design of that place sucks the life force from one's soul. But the glassy atrium on the ground floor isn't too bad, especially on a cold winter day. ?

Just now, KJP said:

 

If jails can be redeveloped, so can a courts tower. But I know what you mean. I was there at least once a week when I covered the city of Cleveland for Sun Newspapers. The design of that place sucks the life force from one's soul. But the glassy atrium on the ground floor isn't too bad, especially on a cold winter day. ?

 

I especially like the half dozen or so birds that lob wet turds on attorneys in suits and family members of inmates and/or defendants already having a pretty bad day lol 

That must be a new thing. I don't remember any birds in the atrium back in 2003-09 when I frequented the JC, although I usually came in through the entrance next to the police museum where the metal detector line was much shorter.

8 minutes ago, KJP said:

That must be a new thing. I don't remember any birds in the atrium back in 2003-09 when I frequented the JC, although I usually came in through the entrance next to the police museum where the metal detector line was much shorter.

 

Sign of a grizzled veteran lol. That's the only acceptable entrance. 

 

But yeah. The birds chirping is a nice sound. Them swooping close to me when I have a muffin, not so much.

1 hour ago, KJP said:

I'm all in on @YO to the CLE's vision for the Justice Center site. I would add that the court tower needs a modernized exterior. Not an added layer like the federal building, but a recladding like First Canadian Place in Toronto. But that may not possible with historic tax credit regulations.

 

Definitely some serious issues with the facade.

 

I had jury duty earlier this year.  On the last day of service a downpour happened to blow in from over the lake.  Water was cascading down through the windows, on the interior.  It was an incredible amount of water, just flowing seemingly floor to floor, flowing through the under-window hvac equipment, over electric wires, etc.  Must have been a common occurrence as no one on the floor seemed alarmed.   

 

Great views from the upper floors though.  

Edited December 20, 20186 yr by sizzlinbeef

1 hour ago, sizzlinbeef said:

 

Definitely some serious issues with the facade.

 

I had jury duty earlier this year.  On the last day of service a downpour happened to blow in from over the lake.  Water was cascading down through the windows, on the interior.  It was an incredible amount of water, just flowing seemingly floor to floor, flowing through the under-window hvac equipment, over electric wires, etc.  Must have been a common occurrence as no one on the floor seemed alarmed.   

 

Great views from the upper floors though.  

You should probably get tested for Legionnaires disease lol. 

BTW, to underscore how huge a new jail would be, the current county jail has more than 1 million square feet with little on-site/underground parking. This includes space for those awaiting arraignment hearings which could be separated out from a future jail and be in a new court tower. I have no idea how much space this would be, but let's say it's about 50,000 sf. The existing jail facility is too small and the county is leading a jail regionalization effort that would add another 200 beds downtown. So let's say the future jail is in the 1.2 million sf range, not including a parking deck. The most recent expansion to the county jail had floor plates of 23,000 sf in its block/stack. Let's assume that's an optimal floor space design.

 

If the new county jail was built with one block/stack, it could be 52 stories tall (not including parking). If it was built with two blocks/stacks side-by-side, it could be 26 stories tall. With three blocks/stacks set side-by-side-by-side, each would average more than 17 stories tall.

 

Again, that's without parking. The Cuyahoga County Corrections Center has 700 employees (guards, cooks, laundry workers, etc), including those at a satellite facility in Euclid. The proposed jail consolidation could bring another 50-70 jobs downtown. Not all employees are working at the same time, of course, but they peak in daytime as do jail visitors including families, attorneys, etc. So let's say a 600-car garage. That's a little more than 200,000 sf. If you put three jail blocks on top of a parking garage, it could be a three level garage with some room left over for a larger ground-floor lobby plus restaurant, newsstand, etc.

 

Not that I'm planning to design a jail or anything. I'm just giving readers here a sense of how huge this facility will probably be. 

 

 

Edited December 20, 20186 yr by KJP

10 hours ago, KJP said:

Except that, after 2026, state and federal historic tax credits can be used to redevelop the Justice Center tower, including the $25 million credit for big projects. Those aren't available to new construction. 

 

The $25 million catalytic tax credit program is over. There will be no more awards unless the law is changed. 

Just having a little fun on a quiet Saturday before Christmas....

 

I put the new Justice Center/Courts Tower on Superior Avenue, next to where it stood 150 years ago on West 3rd and a block away from where it stood at the NW corner of Public Square. The new facility is a short walk from the transit hub on Public Square and connected to the Tower City rail hub and shopping/dining complex view a new underground walkway. I suspect many of you won't like that. But others who serve jury duty and who work in the Courts Tower might. Perhaps you might like the idea of an angled interior atrium 30 stories high, to bring light to the building's interior (compared to the drab interiors at the existing Justice Center). It would feature a publicly accessible ground level but everything above the ground level requires security screening. Thus the ground level would be a pedestrian shortcut between the Warehouse District and Public Square 24 hours a day and lined with shops/cafes/etc. It includes a parking garage with 150 extra spaces to reduce the need for other surface parking and to support future development built on top of the parking deck. I assume an office building, such as for law offices, public defender, etc.

 

The new regional jail facility is proposed to be located in area where many public agency offices and headquarters are already located and may soon be. This includes the Virgil E. Brown Job & Family Services Center, the Cleveland Fire Department headquarters, and potentially the new Cleveland Police Department HQ a couple of blocks east. Putting two 26-story towers here would extend the skyline eastward along Superior, but not by a big stretch. The 23-story CMHA Bohn Tower is two buildings to the west of the proposed site, and it's on a busy transit corridor yet accessible to I-90. Putting it here would keep the jail downtown (thus keeping its prison population in the downtown residents' count!).

 

And both the new Justice Center and new jail facilities would be located on Superior, connected by regular RTA buses and the B-Line free trolley.

 

OVERVIEW

 

NEW JUSTICE CENTER/COURTS TOWER

 

NEW CUYAHOGA COUNTY REGIONAL JAIL

Edited December 22, 20186 yr by KJP

Aren't they trying to turn that area around where you are proposing the jail into a residential district?

You mean between the Cuyahoga County Job & Family Services building and the CMHA tower? 

Not sure if anyone has brought up the possibility of using the area around Bolivar Rd. and E. 9th. I seem to recall that Geis cos owns the parking structure used by the county as well as the adjacent structure just east. Considering they had a unique development arrangement with the county for the admin building perhaps something similar can be worked out for a Justice Center replacement. I see surface parking on the west side of that intersection that could be used as a phase one. This could consist of a new parking structure and maybe police HQ on top. Once the parking is complete construction could continue above and demolition could commence  on the old structures that Geis owns making way for the new courthouse tower. It's conceivable that you could even get the prison towers built just west of the new police HQ along Bolivar but Cleveland Scene would have to go. Just a thought.

4 hours ago, KJP said:

You mean between the Cuyahoga County Job & Family Services building and the CMHA tower? 

 

 

I mean between the new townhouses being built across the street on Superior, the planned redevelopment of the Greyhound station, and all the development happening along Superior Avenue to the east.

Understood. But the likely new location for the Cleveland Police Department HQ is a couple of blocks east.

 

I tried to think of where such a massive facility could be built and not stick out on the landscape like a nuclear power plant. That probably means building it at or near the edge of the downtown skyline. I wouldn't build the jail on the north side of downtown because I wouldn't want it being a major feature on our lakefront. I wouldn't build it on the west side because I wouldn't want it to be a major feature on our riverfront. We couldn't put it on the east side of downtown because that's CSU. I proposed the northeast side of downtown because it already has a mix of social service centers and safety forces facilities. I also cling to the idea of building it on the south side, somewhere between the Main Post Office and Gateway/CSU, next to the Inner Belt. But I wouldn't build it over the Rapid lines because I'm saving that site for the next Browns stadium. ? It could go next to the west side of the Salvation Army building but that site is cramped. And it's next to the Wolstein Center which could be demolished for student housing. So the options for building a new regional jail downtown without complicating something probably don't exist. Then again, I doubt any site is complication-free.

Edited December 23, 20186 yr by KJP

Does it have to go Downtown?  If it isn't attached to the courts or police station anyway, why not stick it in some industrial area?

Maybe it could go near the juvenile justice center, such as on Quincy east of East 105th and the elevated CSX tracks? It would have transit access and perhaps not stick out so much, what with the juvenile center to the west and the big UC buildings to the north. But it would mean the loss of 2,000 downtown residents.

 

As for @Clvlndr in LV's suggestion about building it between East 9th, Bolivar, Erie Ct., and I assume west of the Grays Armory (don't want to demolish that, right?), it could fit there but would be very tight. If everything (justice center, regional jail, CPD HQ) went there including a 1,200-car parking deck, it would be about 3 million square feet. To fit in that spot would be a building at least 400 feet long, 200 feet wide and 37+ stories tall. There's more room in the long/wider block bounded by East 9th, Sumner, Carnegie, and East 14th. But it would mean the demolition of St. Moran and Aladdin's Bakery.

 

BTW, I love the idea of doing a trade with a major developer to reduce the cost to the county. Give them an old skyscraper in exchange for a cheap lease-to-own justice center. I figured Weston could do it with his Superblock site. But Geis has the experience, as you noted.

Edited December 23, 20186 yr by KJP

So @KJP  I wasn't thinking south of Bolivar but I guess that's an option. Just the Geis Parking structures bounded by Bolivar, Prospect and E9th and nothing east of that certainly not Gray's. I was thinking lot's on west side of 9th on the north side of Bolivar for what I called phase 1; just to clear things up.

Now that Justice Center impasse has been broken, Cuyahoga County officials and judges must move quickly to seal the deal, identify solutions: editorial

https://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index.ssf/2018/12/now_that_justice_center_impass.html

How would a new Justice Center be financed? Would it come down to new taxes and would it then  require voter approval?  

They could lease it or debt-finance it until the bonds are paid off. Probably cost about $50 million to $75 million per year.

Cuyahoga County takes key step in Justice Center renovation or replacement

https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2019/01/cuyahoga-county-takes-key-step-in-justice-center-renovation-or-replacement.html

They’re estimating it could be an $800 million project - let’s hope that’s not a renovation. 

8 minutes ago, CleveFan said:

They’re estimating it could be an $800 million project - let’s hope that’s not a renovation. 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if new construction ends up substantially more than that.

 

edit: KJP estimated around 3 million square feet to replace the entire complex. That's going to be well over a billion dollar project.

Edited January 9, 20196 yr by Mendo

They shouldn’t have even bothered providing a cost estimate...that’s the entire reason they are hiring the consultants.

 

But maybe counsel asked for Public Works’ best guess, I don’t know.

8 hours ago, Mendo said:

 

I wouldn't be surprised if new construction ends up substantially more than that.

 

edit: KJP estimated around 3 million square feet to replace the entire complex. That's going to be well over a billion dollar project.

 

What if they replace half and rebuild the other half?

10 hours ago, CleveFan said:

They’re estimating it could be an $800 million project - let’s hope that’s not a renovation. 

I know it's a pie in the sky number at this point, but I wonder how this would be paid for, are there state/federal dollars out there for projects like these? That's a lot of financing for the county to take on alone.

1 hour ago, GISguy said:

I know it's a pie in the sky number at this point, but I wonder how this would be paid for, are there state/federal dollars out there for projects like these? That's a lot of financing for the county to take on alone.

 

There may also be significant operating savings from a new courts tower, as well as from a consolidated regional jail facility.

4 hours ago, Enginerd said:

They shouldn’t have even bothered providing a cost estimate...that’s the entire reason they are hiring the consultants.

 

But maybe counsel asked for Public Works’ best guess, I don’t know.

 

*puts on tinfoil hat*

 

The unrealistic estimates and conveniently timed jail investigations will subtly sway the public that new construction is the best way forward, even when the consultant report comes out and estimate comes in far higher than $800 million. And I expect the "renovation" estimate will have a bunch of questionable requirements, like relocating groups or other costly infrastructure changes that will drive up the renovation estimate making new construction more palatable.

 

edit: Right on time, another article about the jail. This one full of subjective requirements that our jail cannot meet without extensive remodeling.

 

How to build a better jail: Expert advice to transform Cuyahoga County's deplorable facility into a national model

https://www.cleveland.com/expo/news/g66l-2019/01/e7bdb82b876680/how-to-build-a-better-jail-exp.html

 

Edited January 9, 20196 yr by Mendo

Here's my "conspiracy theory". It's called an Edifice Complex....

 

The County Executive, his administration and the County Council have a shiny new headquarters building with decent finishes for a public building, an efficient (aw heck, a working) HVAC, high-tech elevators, state of the art security, and all the bells and whistles. But the Cuyahoga County Common Pleas Court judges are still stuck in a leaking, bird-pooped, drafty and brutalist dump. After the County Executive it's debatable who has more political power -- the County Council or the Common Pleas Court judges. The judges have some serious edifice envy. I've been hearing this ever since the county began building its new HQ on East 9th. They've said in so many words -- hey, where's ours? And the delay over the past year regarding how much say the judges have was instructive. So if you've ever spent any time in the Justice Center, they're justified in asking, even if for having decent working conditions.

Cuyahoga County Common Pleas Judges John J. Russo and David Matia want consolidation of municipal courts to be considered

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2019/02/cuyahoga-county-common-pleas-judges-john-j-russo-and-david-matia-want-consolidation-of-municipal-courts-to-be-considered.html

 

There is already a discussion of the regionalization aspects of this proposal. I'm focusing here on what it could mean for the redevelopment of the existing Justice Center or the construction of a new one.

 

If the municipal courts are consolidated, it would pretty much make it a slam-dunk for a new, larger Justice Center downtown. A consolidated jail facility could go anywhere, but I'm starting to warm to the idea of a facility located on the Opportunity Corridor/Red Line.

Edited February 5, 20196 yr by KJP

There would be great irony to building a jail along the ‘opportunity’ corridor

Was just stuck in an elevator at the Justice Center for 15 minutes. There were about 14 people on the elevator with me. None of them smelled good. If they sell seats to the implosion, I'm buying a corporate box and getting popcorn and champagne for everyone. 

2 hours ago, CbusTransit said:

There would be great irony to building a jail along the ‘opportunity’ corridor

 

One already exists on the other side of the tracks from it. For children, no less.

 

Now that you say that, the irony might cause county and city officials to not build it there. The jail will take up a lot of land, it will be very tall, or perhaps a little of both. I'd like for it to be within 500 feet of a rail or BRT station but that may require a great deal of land assembly/demolitions. One answer that jumps out at me right now is East 34th/Campus. There are two large parcels just south of the station. A jail might actually bring some ridership to this station which is right next to I-77. Another might involve building a new station and putting a consolidated jail facility over it, between East 9th Extension and the Inner Belt.

 

4 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

Was just stuck in an elevator at the Justice Center for 15 minutes. There were about 14 people on the elevator with me. None of them smelled good. If they sell seats to the implosion, I'm buying a corporate box and getting popcorn and champagne for everyone. 

 

@YABO713 Nah, you're going to buy a penthouse unit when they convert it to condos. ?

Edited February 5, 20196 yr by KJP

3 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

One already exists on the other side of the tracks from it. For children, no less.

 

Now that you say that, the irony might cause county and city officials to not build it there. The jail will take up a lot of land, it will be very tall, or perhaps a little of both. I'd like for it to be within 500 feet of a rail or BRT station but that may require a great deal of land assembly/demolitions. One answer that jumps out at me right now is East 34th/Campus. There are two large parcels just south of the station. A jail might actually bring some ridership to this station which is right next to I-77. Another might involve building a new station and putting a consolidated jail facility over it, between East 9th Extension and the Inner Belt.

 

Catch 22 is, many small law firms opened shop downtown, opting for more expensive rent for a small business, for the simple fact that they can walk to the JC. There will be strong opposition from these smaller practitioners. 

I'm surprised that law firms do that much business with clients after they've been incarcerated.

^I assume he's referring to trial and pre-trial work, before conviction.  There's a big difference between a jail and a prison. 

4 minutes ago, StapHanger said:

^I assume he's referring to trial and pre-trial work, before conviction.  There's a big difference between a jail and a prison. 

 

True, but the juvenile detention center and the downtown jails are used for both. A jail facility for those awaiting bail or grand jury hearings could be located inside a new Justice Center downtown.

40 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

True, but the juvenile detention center and the downtown jails are used for both. A jail facility for those awaiting bail or grand jury hearings could be located inside a new Justice Center downtown.

 

For the most complex criminal cases, the defendant is typically being held there for the pendency of trial anyways. 

16 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

For the most complex criminal cases, the defendant is typically being held there for the pendency of trial anyways. 

 

We could always use the Rapid to transport defendants back and forth between jail and court like Sheriff Arpaio sought to do a decade ago.... ?

https://www.policemag.com/344340/arpaios-plan-to-transport-inmates-on-light-rail-concerns-phoenix?page=39

22 minutes ago, westlake10 said:

For the love of god why does the topic of a new Justice Center keep arising as it does in the article linked above? How do we as taxpayers stand to benefit? The justice center serves a simple and utilitarian purpose and does not produce any return on investment. 

 

Since when is a government investment supposed to produce a return on investment? The justice center is falling apart. It needs to be replaced and the old one given to the private sector to convert it to uses that can produce a return on investment. If the private sector has no interest in it, then demolish it. And furthermore, knowing your distaste for government, you may find some solace in that a new consolidated justice center and regional jail will address one of the biggest problems we have in Cuyahoga County -- too much government. Specifically, too much duplicate government. Why do we have a half-dozen municipal courts and as many municipal jails? These are all very expensive endeavors for our communities and have some duplicate functions that can save taxpayers' money if consolidated.

 

BTW, if you think the last 5-10 years of Justice Center discussions "keeps arising" -- can you imagine the 50 years of discussions that preceded the construction of the current Justice Center.....

 

The Justice Center

A City-County Collaboration more than Fifty Years in the Making

https://clevelandhistorical.org/items/show/784

Edited February 11, 20196 yr by KJP

Found a good place to put the JC - Honestly the only acceptable location imo.

 

 

The new one or the old one??

I hope he meant the old one!  But even though most of us aren’t fans, there’s a big hole in the skyline without that brutal thing! 

Edited February 11, 20196 yr by CleveFan

^And if the private sector couldn't get the Parking Lot District filled in within the last 40 years, don't expect people to be falling head-over-heals for the redevelopment of the Justice Center block (it does fill an entire block) anytime soon.  

 

The design of the complex sucks, sure.  There's work that needs to be done at the building, that's a fact.  But for those who want it down- would you be willing to sacrifice yet another block downtown which would more than likely end up being demolished?   

I view the Justice Center in the same manner as the Ameritrust complex redevelopment. You could never justify building from scratch a 29-story apartment/hotel tower with a highly ornate grocery store attached in downtown Cleveland in 2012. It would probably still be impossible now except that Opportunity Zone funds are adding a new wrinkle. What makes the Ameritrust complex attractive is the same thing that makes redeveloping the justice center attractive -- if you have an existing building whose bones are good and there are public subsidies available for reconstructing buildings that are at least 50 years old, then they become cost-effective with the potential for end-user revenues.

 

Parts of the complex probably will be demolished, namely the jails unless they could be used for a server farm or a tech hub or something like that. Who knows. The private sector can find some very creative uses for buildings that elude the rest of us.