February 11, 20196 yr 1 hour ago, KJP said: Since when is a government investment supposed to produce a return on investment? The justice center is falling apart. It needs to be replaced and the old one given to the private sector to convert it to uses that can produce a return on investment. If the private sector has no interest in it, then demolish it. And furthermore, knowing your distaste for government, you may find some solace in that a new consolidated justice center and regional jail will address one of the biggest problems we have in Cuyahoga County -- too much government. Specifically, too much duplicate government. Why do we have a half-dozen municipal courts and as many municipal jails? These are all very expensive endeavors for our communities and have some duplicate functions that can save taxpayers' money if consolidated. BTW, if you think the last 5-10 years of Justice Center discussions "keeps arising" -- can you imagine the 50 years of discussions that preceded the construction of the current Justice Center..... To your first point, I'm a little confused. Are you implying that tax dollars should not be used in such a way that benefits the taxpaying public in a measurable and efficient way? To your second point, what exactly are the parameters you are using to define the justice center as "falling apart"? How about some specifics instead of emotionally charged rhetoric? They better be catastrophic issues to justify the MILLIONS it will take to replace such a structure rather than renovate or simply cope with it as it is. To your third point, it's absolutely absurd to suggest that spending millions (billions?) to demolish one of the largest buildings in the city and construct a brand new building to serve as justice center as well as regional jail is 'saving the taxpayers money'. This is the absolute lie that all big government types use to push their plans through. Show me one good example of a government project that ran under budget and can be shown empirically to save taxpayers money in the short and long term. I know you don't like my attitude toward these government entities and projects but to be frank it is people like me who will end up footing the bill for this kind of stuff and at the same time I'm faced with the reality of having to leave the city with some of the highest taxes in the state once I have children because the schools continue to be pathetic despite all the funding they squander.
February 11, 20196 yr 33 minutes ago, westlake10 said: To your first point, I'm a little confused. Are you implying that tax dollars should not be used in such a way that benefits the taxpaying public in a measurable and efficient way? To your second point, what exactly are the parameters you are using to define the justice center as "falling apart"? How about some specifics instead of emotionally charged rhetoric? They better be catastrophic issues to justify the MILLIONS it will take to replace such a structure rather than renovate or simply cope with it as it is. To your third point, it's absolutely absurd to suggest that spending millions (billions?) to demolish one of the largest buildings in the city and construct a brand new building to serve as justice center as well as regional jail is 'saving the taxpayers money'. This is the absolute lie that all big government types use to push their plans through. Show me one good example of a government project that ran under budget and can be shown empirically to save taxpayers money in the short and long term. I know you don't like my attitude toward these government entities and projects but to be frank it is people like me who will end up footing the bill for this kind of stuff and at the same time I'm faced with the reality of having to leave the city with some of the highest taxes in the state once I have children because the schools continue to be pathetic despite all the funding they squander. You said return on investment. Our public sectors don't get paid back financially for what they do nor should they. We do so for the benefit of humanity. We can measure that without monetizing it. Read the Osborne report of 2014 on the condition of the Justice Center five years ago. In particular, they note the existing center will require $179 million over 10 years in repairs just to survive to its 50th birthday when the complex will need to be completely rebuilt/replaced. So we just p'ssed away $179 million and will have to spend more money for reconstruction/replacement because things only get more expensive the longer we delay acting. No one said demolishing the existing justice center. You assumed it. An example of government project that was under budget and saved taxpayers money? How about two, both by our very own county.... The county's convention center hotel was way under budget, pays its way, and produces economic benefits to the county. The other? The county administration building. It was built by a private developer for less cost than originally budgeted, the county is paying less in lease fees than it was in maintaining/renting its many scattered offices around downtown, and the county gets to buy it at the end of its lease for $1. The latter is probably the model the county will use in building the new justice center. So you wanted one example. I gave you two. Both are by the same county you decry as being unable to achieve it. You might have to move to find whatever makes you happy, although I doubt moving will help you find it. Everything has a price. I prefer a higher quality of life which costs money, often paid in taxes. I prefer one court building, not seven. I prefer one jail, not a handful. We are one urbanized county. Let's not continue as 58 chaotic, powerless, uncoordinated fiefdoms. I don't want to keep playing us-and-them games common to balkanized, stagnant metro areas. Edited February 11, 20196 yr by KJP "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 11, 20196 yr 58 minutes ago, Oldmanladyluck said: ^And if the private sector couldn't get the Parking Lot District filled in within the last 40 years, don't expect people to be falling head-over-heals for the redevelopment of the Justice Center block (it does fill an entire block) anytime soon. The design of the complex sucks, sure. There's work that needs to be done at the building, that's a fact. But for those who want it down- would you be willing to sacrifice yet another block downtown which would more than likely end up being demolished? I think the most likely replacement would be a new entertainment district block, with an emphasis on Browns games, concerts, and other events at FES.
February 11, 20196 yr 43 minutes ago, YABO713 said: I think the most likely replacement would be a new entertainment district block, with an emphasis on Browns games, concerts, and other events at FES. 10-11 days a year? I'm crossing my fingers the Browns add a 12th and 13th day next year!
February 11, 20196 yr Just now, Cleburger said: 10-11 days a year? I'm crossing my fingers the Browns add a 12th and 13th day next year! I was thinking more along the lines of what Cincinnati did adjacent to Great American Ballpark - ground floor retail, apartments or offices above (no more than 5-6 floors) and perhaps a Browns museum as a satellite to the Pro Football Hall of Fame
February 11, 20196 yr ^that would be interesting, and possibly somewhat of a throwback to what was there before the Justice Center regarding building height.
February 11, 20196 yr The city needs more office, retail and residential development before another entertainment district, especially one that lives and dies 10- 12 days a year, depending on the Browns’ fortunes, and is virtually next door to another entertainment district. And as much as I dislike the architecture of the JC, if a redevelopment and repurposing of it is possible,, that might be better than a district that cannot be sustained and becomes another dead zone not far into the future. But we don’t know yet if the JC complex will end up being rebuilt or repaired, so one step at a time I guess. Edited February 11, 20196 yr by CleveFan
February 26, 20196 yr Today I had the displeasure of having to conduct a transaction in the Justice Center. What a DUMP. They have do-nothing guards hanging around all 4 entrances with wasted space all over the place. Dirty, terrible lighting, drab finishes. That place should absolutely be torn down. Sad.
February 26, 20196 yr 11 minutes ago, gottaplan said: Today I had the displeasure of having to conduct a transaction in the Justice Center. What a DUMP. They have do-nothing guards hanging around all 4 entrances with wasted space all over the place. Dirty, terrible lighting, drab finishes. That place should absolutely be torn down. Sad. The interior is uglier than the exterior.
February 27, 20196 yr Dirt and poor lighting is enough to demolish the building? That's an awfully low bar.
February 27, 20196 yr 11 hours ago, Mendo said: Dirt and poor lighting is enough to demolish the building? That's an awfully low bar. It's a secure facility, or at least tries to be. Has entrances on all four sides. Huge amount of wasted space in the atrium that is filled with nothing. Will never be used as a gathering/congregation area because it's all filled with makeshift security desks. There's no obvious pedestrian flow whatsoever. As soon as you get through whatever security you need to, you have to meander through the remaining security stations to get to wherever you're going, which in itself is a security problem
February 27, 20196 yr I agree. The building is a dump. I don't know if it's worth repurposing for another use but it doesn't work well anymore as a courthouse.
February 27, 20196 yr Opinions vary. The building however may be structurally sound and a revenue-producing use along with a lot of subsidies including tax abatements, TIF, port authority bonds, other public sector loans, historic tax credits (post-2026) and Opportunity Zone funding could make redevelopment of a portion of the complex, namely the courts tower, financially viable -- as was the case with the taller but more narrow Ameritrust tower (another county-owned property). But the remodeling of the site while retaining its current use will have to take some very hard financial data into account. One of those is that the building needs $179 million worth of repairs and upkeep over the next 7-8 years. And that gets the county only to the point where this building will be 50 years old and face hundreds of millions of dollar more for major renovations. Furthermore, how well might this complex function under major renovation? How safe will it be? Those are the factors that will have to be taken under consideration. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 27, 20196 yr My question is how in the frack does a building that's not even 50 years old require close to $175 million in work just to make it last for another 10 years? I remember the article where that figure was mentioned but something about that figure doesn't "add up". I'm not saying that the building doesn't need work... we all know it does. But $175 big ones? I don't know...
February 27, 20196 yr The building was constructed when organized crime still ruled Greater Cleveland's labor unions, contractors and government (for background, search on "Cleveland" in this 1978 Union Corruption report from the Justice Department I posted at: http://freepdfhosting.com/7e943594c0.pdf). The corruption resulted in the building costing more than twice what was originally estimated. And it resulted in shoddy construction. The shoddy construction is well in evidence with a casual, visual inspection today. That shoddy construction equals high maintenance. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 27, 20196 yr 6 minutes ago, KJP said: The building was constructed when organized crime still ruled Greater Cleveland's labor unions, contractors and government (for background, search on "Cleveland" in this 1978 Union Corruption report from the Justice Department I posted at: http://freepdfhosting.com/7e943594c0.pdf). The corruption resulted in the building costing more than twice what was originally estimated. And it resulted in shoddy construction. The shoddy construction is well in evidence with a casual, visual inspection today. That shoddy construction equals high maintenance. Where do you get this stuff? This is great.
February 27, 20196 yr 10 minutes ago, ASP1984 said: Where do you get this stuff? This is great. From more than 20 years of writing and researching Cleveland organized crime, though most of my work was more than 15 years ago when I founded and managed a website clevelandmob.com (EDIT: now defunct). Edited February 27, 20196 yr by KJP "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 27, 20196 yr 6 minutes ago, KJP said: From more than 20 years of writing and researching Cleveland organized crime, though most of my work was more than 15 years ago when I founded and managed a website clevelandmob.com (EDIT: now defunct). I used to visit that site many years back. I had a fascination with organized crime for a bit.
February 27, 20196 yr 4 hours ago, KJP said: Opinions vary. The building however may be structurally sound and a revenue-producing use along with a lot of subsidies including tax abatements, TIF, port authority bonds, other public sector loans, historic tax credits (post-2026) and Opportunity Zone funding could make redevelopment of a portion of the complex, namely the courts tower, financially viable -- as was the case with the taller but more narrow Ameritrust tower (another county-owned property). But the remodeling of the site while retaining its current use will have to take some very hard financial data into account. One of those is that the building needs $179 million worth of repairs and upkeep over the next 7-8 years. And that gets the county only to the point where this building will be 50 years old and face hundreds of millions of dollar more for major renovations. Furthermore, how well might this complex function under major renovation? How safe will it be? 1 I concur with KJP. Let's also remember that it was constructed as a public building that should be open and accessible to everyone. That influenced the development of the atrium with the multiple entrances, something that is now seen as problematic post-9/11. The design of the building no longer suits its use. For that reason, I'd rather see some or all of the county move to another building or buildings and refurbish and repurpose what's left behind.
February 27, 20196 yr 3 hours ago, KJP said: From more than 20 years of writing and researching Cleveland organized crime, though most of my work was more than 15 years ago when I founded and managed a website clevelandmob.com (EDIT: now defunct). That was yours?! I used to read that all the time!!
February 27, 20196 yr 4 hours ago, Oldmanladyluck said: My question is how in the frack does a building that's not even 50 years old require close to $175 million in work just to make it last for another 10 years? I remember the article where that figure was mentioned but something about that figure doesn't "add up". I'm not saying that the building doesn't need work... we all know it does. But $175 big ones? I don't know... Asbestos, for one. My Dad did pipe insulation on the building, he told me it was the last big project he remembers that used lots of asbestos Edited February 27, 20196 yr by punch
February 27, 20196 yr 3 hours ago, Foraker said: I concur with KJP. Let's also remember that it was constructed as a public building that should be open and accessible to everyone. That influenced the development of the atrium with the multiple entrances, something that is now seen as problematic post-9/11. The design of the building no longer suits its use. For that reason, I'd rather see some or all of the county move to another building or buildings and refurbish and repurpose what's left behind. This building represents everything that's ever been bad about our city. We should move on from it. Maybe there are some Brutalist structures worth preserving but not this.
March 15, 20196 yr From everything I'm hearing, it's going to be at least a new jail and probably a new courts facility too considering that a renovation won't save the county money over the long run. And my assumption that the judges wanted a new building was wrong. Turns out they favored renovation but the many problems with the jail and the advice from enough experts recently convinced them to consider a new facility and to join the other stakeholders in the process.... Cuyahoga County and Cleveland agree on firm to lead planning for Justice Center replacement or renovation https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2019/03/cuyahoga-county-and-cleveland-agree-on-firm-to-lead-planning-for-justice-center-replacement-or-renovation.html "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 15, 20196 yr I won't argue the artistic design of a building because to each their own. But wait until you hear what it will probably cost to renovate the Justice Center, only to end up with a 50-year-old building whose design functionality in the 21st century is and will be ever more obsolete. As for bonding, a $1 billion Justice Center complex will cost about $50 million to $60 million per year, depending on the bonding term. And why are we so scared of a billion dollars? That's how much the county is putting in to the remake of the MetroHealth campus. We need more billion-dollar infrastructure projects to boost our economic foundations. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 19, 20196 yr So would the Justice Center be able to be repurposed in any way or might it have to be destroyed? I assume its options for conversion are extremely limited and cost prohibitive? 8th tallest building in the city and for better or worse, a fairly unescapable part of the Cleveland skyline.... If it ever came to that, (excluding three World Trade Center buildings) it would be the 18th tallest building ever demolished in the world.
March 19, 20196 yr Depends on if any developer can make a go of it. The county thought the old Ameritrust tower was hopeless but Geis was able to repurpose it. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 26, 20196 yr Cuyahoga County Board of Control approves purchase of bunks so jail inmates won’t have to sleep on floor Updated Mar 25, 2:37 PM; Posted Mar 25, 2:36 PM By Courtney Astolfi, cleveland.com ...Once the bunks are delivered, 500 or so inmates will no longer be sleeping on the floor, interim Chief of Staff Matt Carroll, and interim Warden Phillip Christopher said. The downtown jail, which is supposed to hold up to 1,795 inmates, has been over-populated for years, and a U.S. Marshals Service report released in November found that it was holding more than 2,400 inmates. That number has decreased dramatically over the past several months — there were 1,984 inmates on Monday, according to a county spokeswoman. MORE: https://www.cleveland.com/news/2019/03/cuyahoga-county-board-of-control-approves-purchase-of-bunks-so-jail-inmates-wont-have-to-sleep-on-floor.html And Cuyahoga County Jail inmate jumps from balcony in suicide attempt Updated Mar 25, 2:46 PM; Posted Mar 25, 1:58 PM By Adam Ferrise, cleveland.com CLEVELAND, Ohio — A Cuyahoga County Jail inmate tried to commit suicide late Saturday when he jumped from 15-foot balcony. ....Suicide attempts at the Cuyahoga County Jail have tripled in the last three years, peaking with 69 in 2018. The number of attempted suicides, which spiked from 23 in 2016, happened as conditions worsened at the jail, including an increase in forced lockdowns called “red-zoning.” MORE: https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2019/03/cuyahoga-county-jail-inmate-jumps-from-balcony-in-suicide-attempt.html Edited March 26, 20196 yr by KJP "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 26, 20196 yr 4 hours ago, KJP said: Cuyahoga County Board of Control approves purchase of bunks so jail inmates won’t have to sleep on floor Updated Mar 25, 2:37 PM; Posted Mar 25, 2:36 PM By Courtney Astolfi, cleveland.com ...Once the bunks are delivered, 500 or so inmates will no longer be sleeping on the floor, interim Chief of Staff Matt Carroll, and interim Warden Phillip Christopher said. The downtown jail, which is supposed to hold up to 1,795 inmates, has been over-populated for years, and a U.S. Marshals Service report released in November found that it was holding more than 2,400 inmates. That number has decreased dramatically over the past several months — there were 1,984 inmates on Monday, according to a county spokeswoman. MORE: https://www.cleveland.com/news/2019/03/cuyahoga-county-board-of-control-approves-purchase-of-bunks-so-jail-inmates-wont-have-to-sleep-on-floor.html And Cuyahoga County Jail inmate jumps from balcony in suicide attempt Updated Mar 25, 2:46 PM; Posted Mar 25, 1:58 PM By Adam Ferrise, cleveland.com CLEVELAND, Ohio — A Cuyahoga County Jail inmate tried to commit suicide late Saturday when he jumped from 15-foot balcony. ....Suicide attempts at the Cuyahoga County Jail have tripled in the last three years, peaking with 69 in 2018. The number of attempted suicides, which spiked from 23 in 2016, happened as conditions worsened at the jail, including an increase in forced lockdowns called “red-zoning.” MORE: https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2019/03/cuyahoga-county-jail-inmate-jumps-from-balcony-in-suicide-attempt.html Wow
August 8, 20195 yr Sounds like a new Justice Center wouldn't be 3 million square feet after all.... Local leaders deciding fate of aging Cuyahoga County Justice Center agree they must adopt criminal justice reforms https://www.cleveland.com/news/2019/08/local-leaders-deciding-fate-of-aging-cuyahoga-county-justice-center-agree-they-must-adopt-criminal-justice-reforms.html "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
August 8, 20195 yr 8 hours ago, KJP said: Sounds like a new Justice Center wouldn't be 3 million square feet after all.... Local leaders deciding fate of aging Cuyahoga County Justice Center agree they must adopt criminal justice reforms https://www.cleveland.com/news/2019/08/local-leaders-deciding-fate-of-aging-cuyahoga-county-justice-center-agree-they-must-adopt-criminal-justice-reforms.html Nice to see the county is taking justice reform seriously. While it exciting to watch the skyline evolve, reform is certainly more important than a shiny new building.
August 8, 20195 yr Very true, but this is the construction section of the forum. And the article addresses how jail reform might affect plans for a new/rebuilt Justice Center. It will be interesting to see how much the square footage and cost can be scaled back as a result of jail reform. Edited August 8, 20195 yr by KJP "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
August 8, 20195 yr 1 hour ago, KJP said: Very true, but this is the construction section of the forum. And the article addresses how jail reform might affect plans for a new/rebuilt Justice Center. It will be interesting to see how much the square footage and cost can be scaled back as a result of jail reform. As someone who has frequented both the jail and the JC - reform is not possible at the jail's current location, with its current set-up. When I practiced criminal law, I had several clients who couldn't sleep for more than 20-40 minutes at a time because their body hadn't seen sunlight fade to darkness and vice versa in their time there - thus throwing off their internal clocks. I've seen narrow hallways out of sight of cameras where transfers and violence usually happen. The chairs, the glass, the plumbing, the ventilation - it's all broken or failing. If reform is going to happen, the county needs to acknowledge the structure is insufficient. Or they can simply say that the purpose of the jail is purely punitive and not rehabilitative and move on.
August 8, 20195 yr 6 minutes ago, YABO713 said: As someone who has frequented both the jail and the JC - reform is not possible at the jail's current location, with its current set-up. When I practiced criminal law, I had several clients who couldn't sleep for more than 20-40 minutes at a time because their body hadn't seen sunlight fade to darkness and vice versa in their time there - thus throwing off their internal clocks. I've seen narrow hallways out of sight of cameras where transfers and violence usually happen. The chairs, the glass, the plumbing, the ventilation - it's all broken or failing. If reform is going to happen, the county needs to acknowledge the structure is insufficient. Or they can simply say that the purpose of the jail is purely punitive and not rehabilitative and move on. The truly messed up thing is that is a jail and not a prison. Most of the people there have not yet been convicted of anything .The only reason they're in there is because thy are poor. Edited August 8, 20195 yr by freefourur
August 8, 20195 yr 22 minutes ago, freefourur said: The truly messed up thing is that is a jail and not a prison. Most of the people there have not yet been convicted of anything .The only reason they're in there is because thy are poor. I had a client who spent 17 months in there before trial only to be acquitted. Got a serious fracture during his stay, too. Edited August 8, 20195 yr by YABO713
August 8, 20195 yr It’s pretty sad that it’s the cost of new construction as being the only reason they’re doing this. Not because it’s the right thing to do.
August 8, 20195 yr 9 minutes ago, Terdolph said: I agree in that I don't believe the Osborne Engineering report because it is self serving. The steel superstructure of the building is fine. The facade is more or less OK for a 50 year old bldg. Repairing it will cost far less, maybe an order of magnitude less than tearing it down and building a replacement (some of the estimates for a new facility I have seen here top $1 billion). I wish we would move on from the economic fantasy of tearing down this structure. It is distracting us from other stuff that needs to get done. The county is not putting a billion dollars to Metrohealths Campus. Metrohealth bonded that themselves as they are a self sufficient organization, they actually make the county money. Edit: I somehow quoted the wrong person. Edited August 8, 20195 yr by KFM44107
August 8, 20195 yr 13 minutes ago, Terdolph said: I agree in that I don't believe the Osborne Engineering report because it is self serving. The steel superstructure of the building is fine. The facade is more or less OK for a 50 year old bldg. Repairing it will cost far less, maybe an order of magnitude less than tearing it down and building a replacement (some of the estimates for a new facility I have seen here top $1 billion). I wish we would move on from the economic fantasy of tearing down this structure. It is distracting us from other stuff that needs to get done. No one knows how much the options are going to cost because there aren't options yet.
August 8, 20195 yr From a January 2018 article that referenced the Osborn report you mentioned: ”The firms did not study the possibility of demolishing the entire complex and the cost to rebuild at another location.” Options don’t exist yet. They are considering them presently.
September 12, 20195 yr Delays in building a new Cuyahoga County Justice Center would be costly Link: https://www.cleveland.com/news/2019/09/delays-in-building-a-new-cuyahoga-county-justice-center-would-be-costly.html "...construction costs are estimated to rise annually by 6 percent. With the cost of the project expected to exceed $500 million that’s at least another $30 million per year." Edited September 12, 20195 yr by NorthShore647
September 13, 20195 yr The delay affects renovations or construction. And no one knows what will happen with the Justice Center. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 16, 20195 yr The delay is because they're in the middle of jail reform in both the city and county. They need to figure out their capacity issues which impacts the cost to build and operate more than anything else.
September 16, 20195 yr There is no more city jail, anyone arrested in Cleveland is booked at the County.
September 22, 20195 yr If you want a new Justice Center to be built at or near the center of the CBD, this is probably good news... Cleveland Metropolitan Bar Association wants a seat at the Justice Center planning table https://www.crainscleveland.com/government/cleveland-metropolitan-bar-association-wants-seat-justice-center-planning-table?ite=102889&ito=1153&itq=7a07e556-42f0-4a0c-9d97-73d63b59c700&itx[idio]=7208206 "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 22, 20195 yr 3 minutes ago, KJP said: If you want a new Justice Center to be built at or near the center of the CBD, this is probably good news... Cleveland Metropolitan Bar Association wants a seat at the Justice Center planning table https://www.crainscleveland.com/government/cleveland-metropolitan-bar-association-wants-seat-justice-center-planning-table?ite=102889&ito=1153&itq=7a07e556-42f0-4a0c-9d97-73d63b59c700&itx[idio]=7208206 Makes sense. Most of their offices (and watering holes) are in buildings surrounding the current complex. They wouldn't want a drastic relocation.
September 23, 20195 yr On 9/16/2019 at 9:29 AM, RE Developer In Training said: The delay is because they're in the middle of jail reform in both the city and county. They need to figure out their capacity issues which impacts the cost to build and operate more than anything else. To that end, anyone familiar with what the revenue model of the new Justice Center would be? Are we all here rooting for a building that actually depends on having inmates to stay in the black? How does that impact the size of the building (and vice versa), and should we really put value on "bigger is better" in this situation? Edited September 23, 20195 yr by ASP1984
September 23, 20195 yr It's not a business. They only have to break even. In public finance, a public entity isn't legally allowed to lose money and it isn't allowed to make money either. But it can have a reserve or rainy-day fund which helps with a public agency's bond rating. Due to jail reform, the jail will likely be smaller but that could at least be partially offset by a drive to consolidate jails around the county into a single facility. Ditto for the courts which, in this case, could lead to a larger overall courts tower with a small jail facility for people being held short-term for arraignments, grand jury hearings and trials. The revenues to be identified are for offsetting capital and operating costs. The operating side probably isn't going to be a big issue. The county has the funds to pay the day-to-day expenses of outdated, inefficient, oversized jail facilities downtown and in the suburbs. A smaller, more modern and efficient jail **should** cost less to operate. On the capital side, the revenues will be from a relatively stable source like income, property or sales taxes to retire the issuance of bonds over a term of 5, 10, 15, 20 or 30 years. The longer the term, the smaller the recurring payments -- but adds to risk because even stable tax revenues can change over 30 years. After the bonds for things like Gateway or the Convention Center mature, there will be significant capital funding available to retire bonds for a new Justice Center and jails, possibly without raising new taxes. And a new Justice Center will save the county an average of about $30 million to $40 million per year in having to make major, ongoing repairs to the existing Justice Center. + The Gateway bonds mature in 2022, making nearly $9 million per year in revenues available for the Justice Center project or other projects. At 2% over 30 years, this could service a bond issue of about $130 million. + The savings from no longer having to make major repairs to the existing Justice Center can net about $35 million per year. At 2% over 30 years, this could service a bond issue of about $515 million. + And the 0.25 sales tax increase passed by Cuyahoga County to service the bonds for the convention center mature in 2027. That revenue yields about $50 million to $60 million per year. It could service a 2%, 30-year bond issue of $800 million. Or something like that. EDIT: BTW, here's my guess of how things play out....I expect the county to build new jail first. They have a crisis situation in the old jails that must be dealt with ASAP. I also expect the new jail to be built somewhere outside of downtown. The 1977 jail facility, at the corner of West 3rd and Lakeside, will probably be demolished, leaving the 1995 jail to serve as the arraignments/grand jury/trial jail for the courthouse tower. A new Justice Center courthouse tower and parking deck will be built where the 1977 jail stood. The old Justice Center courthouse tower and the CPD HQ will either be stripped to their skeletons and rebuilt, or demolished. Just my take. Edited September 23, 20195 yr by KJP "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 23, 20195 yr While not a fan of Brutalism, the aesthetics of the Cleveland Justice Center is one of the better representations of the mid-century architectural form. It's a shame that it has fallen into such a state of disrepair. According to a recent article however, last week, the City Council approved the lease for the police HQ for another year. https://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/2019/09/cleveland-city-council-oks-new-year-on-lease-of-justice-center-property-it-once-owned-for-police-headquarters.html
September 27, 20195 yr On 9/23/2019 at 4:01 PM, Frmr CLEder said: While not a fan of Brutalism, the aesthetics of the Cleveland Justice Center is one of the better representations of the mid-century architectural form. It's a shame that it has fallen into such a state of disrepair. According to a recent article however, last week, the City Council approved the lease for the police HQ for another year. https://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/2019/09/cleveland-city-council-oks-new-year-on-lease-of-justice-center-property-it-once-owned-for-police-headquarters.html It’ll make a great residential conversion with incredible lake views. Everything around it can go though.
October 15, 20195 yr I was going to post this in the Sherwin Williams thread since there is currently an active discussion relating to the re-location of the Justice Center but I did not want to be responsible for spinning that thread too far off topic. As somebody who has crawled around the Justice Center for decades, it is my gut (and pure speculation on my part) that nothing is going to be built in the near future, with $$ being the primary nut. This could easily turn into a project in the 800 million range, if not more. As such, while I personally believe the Jacobs lot would be a pretty good site for the complex, I don't want to see it sitting empty for another ten years when its long over due development can happen right now. The current location of the Justice Center is pretty good as it is a key component of a Cleveland government center (although less so now that the county adm. building has moved to 9th.) with the old courthouse and city hall across the street and federal bankruptcy court, the state office building and the federal courthouse just a few blocks away. It is kind of one stop shopping for those in the profession. My idea is to just rebuild the new courthouse tower on the current block. Apparently they are keen to move the jail off site (not a great idea in my opinion but I won't bore you with my reasons why) and Cleveland Police Headquarters is going to be a thing of the past if the city can get its act together (another example of how Cleveland works and more evidence why this is not happening any time soon). I would build the new jail, move the PD headquarters as planned and then tear down that portion of the complex (which are both on the south end and would result in a huge foot print along with that useless wind swept plaza) and keep the current court house and ancillary offices (clerks office prosecutor's offices etc) in operation during demo and construction. Then tear down the current tower and re-develop the north end of the block in some manner. Another possibility is to just build across West 3rd on that awful parking lot on the Northwest corner of 3rd and St. Clair and tear down all those non descript building all the way down to Lakeside. I am sure Barristers can find a new home.
October 15, 20195 yr 2 minutes ago, Htsguy said: I was going to post this in the Sherwin Williams thread since there is currently an active discussion relating to the re-location of the Justice Center but I did not want to be responsible for spinning that thread too far off topic. As somebody who has crawled around the Justice Center for decades, it is my gut (and pure speculation on my part) that nothing is going to be built in the near future, with $$ being the primary nut. This could easily turn into a project in the 800 million range, if not more. As such, while I personally believe the Jacobs lot would be a pretty good site for the complex, I don't want to see it sitting empty for another ten years when its long over due development can happen right now. The current location of the Justice Center is pretty good as it is a key component of a Cleveland government center (although less so now that the county adm. building has moved to 9th.) with the old courthouse and city hall across the street and federal bankruptcy court, the state office building and the federal courthouse just a few blocks away. It is kind of one stop shopping for those in the profession. My idea is to just rebuild the new courthouse tower on the current block. Apparently they are keen to move the jail off site (not a great idea in my opinion but I won't bore you with my reasons why) and Cleveland Police Headquarters is going to be a thing of the past if the city can get its act together (another example of how Cleveland works and more evidence why this is not happening any time soon). I would build the new jail, move the PD headquarters as planned and then tear down that portion of the complex (which are both on the south end and would result in a huge foot print along with that useless wind swept plaza) and keep the current court house and ancillary offices (clerks office prosecutor's offices etc) in operation during demo and construction. Then tear down the current tower and re-develop the north end of the block in some manner. Another possibility is to just build across West 3rd on that awful parking lot on the Northwest corner of 3rd and St. Clair and tear down all those non descript building all the way down to Lakeside. I am sure Barristers can find a new home. I agree that it could be built where the jail/PD are currently. Though no need to tear town the tower OR anymore of the Warehouse District!
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