23 hours ago, KJP said:

The Police HQ will be in 2A, north of Grand Avenue, west of East 75th.

Thanks @KJP, I forgot which corner. 

 

So IF the new County Jail were located in/along the Opportunity Corridor, the most likely site may be "Redevelopment Area 3B" outlined in the OC Brownfields Area Wide Plan from 2013. 

 

 

https://opportunitycorridor.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/2013-03-25-opportunity-corridor-brownfields-report-draft-email.pdf

 

There are only a handful of sites in the 15 to 30 acre range in the city. Despite only a few structures remaining, site prep and remediation at "Area 3B" may be cost prohibitive here when compared with other alternatives. There are definitely better potential uses for this land (see the Cleveland: East 79th TOD thread), however it could bring more than 700 additional jobs to the forgotten triangle that aren't there now. 

Edited November 15, 20204 yr by NorthShore647

1. The jail should NOT be at the Opportunity Corridor. That’s NOT what it’s for. And also if you want to see unscrupulous politicians take cheap shots to undermine the existence and development of the Opportunity Corridor, put the county jail there. That’ll do it.

2. I’m not even going to get into the idea of bail reform making it unnecessary to have a county jail because, I mean, really? Really y’all? Come on now. I support criminal justice reform. I think you’d have to be blind to not see that some changes need to be made. But there will never be a time where we DONT need a jail for a county of this size unless we just decide that we don’t care about prosecuting crimes at all anymore. It is the height of naivety to think that we could ever get to that point in any major metropolitan city in the United States without also sacrificing safety and security to get there. So back to reality, the real world in which we live in, the county jail will need to be built somewhere obviously. I just don’t think it should be in the OC. 

6 hours ago, jeremyck01 said:

I thought the connection was clear. It was directly related as it has to do with the possible size of the facility. If there is bail reform, a smaller facility will suffice. If not, it will have to be bigger.

 

I didn't delete your post, did I?  After over a decade of moderating UO, I can see when a hot button issue is about to take over a development thread, and I try to head it off.  It's a reminder for everyone.

 

1 hour ago, inlovewithCLE said:

1. The jail should NOT be at the Opportunity Corridor. That’s NOT what it’s for. And also if you want to see unscrupulous politicians take cheap shots to undermine the existence and development of the Opportunity Corridor, put the county jail there. That’ll do it.

2. I’m not even going to get into the idea of bail reform making it unnecessary to have a county jail because, I mean, really? Really y’all? Come on now. I support criminal justice reform. I think you’d have to be blind to not see that some changes need to be made. But there will never be a time where we DONT need a jail for a county of this size unless we just decide that we don’t care about prosecuting crimes at all anymore. It is the height of naivety to think that we could ever get to that point in any major metropolitan city in the United States without also sacrificing safety and security to get there. So back to reality, the real world in which we live in, the county jail will need to be built somewhere obviously. I just don’t think it should be in the OC. 

 

Nobody said anything about it being unnecessary to have a county jail.  It was suggested that the jail could be made smaller with proper reforms. 

 

I don't see what the issue with this being on the OC is, nor do I see why politicians would want to undermine the OC.  It is in the best interest of everyone for it to be successful.  The OC is there for development pure and simple.  And if a jail is part of that development, then so be it.  I'm not saying that it's the best spot, but I don't have an issue with it being located there.

I agree that it shouldn’t be on the OC. Just like the jail now does NOTHING for the area downtown that it is located on, this would do nothing for that area on the OC. The OC needs to be reserved for projects that would breathe life into an area that desperately needs it. This does the complete opposite. If anything put it in the area downtown that has nothing on it I believe Orange Avenue (The road leads up to the Gateway District) It’s a lot of land, already is being used for government uses with the post office and has freeway access and isn’t too far from the justice center. 

Disagree that the jail does an all-caps NOTHING for downtown. I suspect that some law offices and bail bonds offices are downtown because of the jail. Other than that, I can't think of anything else. That is SOMETHING, albeit not much.

Just South of phase 3b there seems to be a ton of land between e 82nd st and the railroad tracks

5 hours ago, Eastside said:

Just South of phase 3b there seems to be a ton of land between e 82nd st and the railroad tracks

 

Most of it is owned/controlled/used by the Rid All Foundation, aka Green Ghetto. https://www.greennghetto.org/  It's a productive, non-profit effort with youth education programs, healthy food production for the inner city and employment opportunities including for convicted felons. There were be a tremendous fight to erase this for a jail -- something that would be very insulting to the community.

Maybe I am in a minority with this thinking and although the building itself is pretty ugly I think one area Downtown is underrated in the sense that we have all these justice/security departments clustered Downtown with the FBI, US Marshall, local police and all the associated law offices and bail bond shops. Thats a lot of jobs in Downtown and from a multi agency collaboration point of view it should be a major positive in terms of the proximity they all have with each other. I don't think they should be willingly chased out to the suburbs.

Edited December 4, 20204 yr by snakebite

5 minutes ago, snakebite said:

Maybe I am in a minority with this thinking and although the building itself is pretty ugly I think one area Downtown is underrated in the sense that we have all these justice/security departments clustered Downtown with the FBI, US Marshall, local police and all the associated law offices and bail bond shops. Thats a lot of jobs in Downtown and from a multi agency collaboration point of view it should be a major positive in terms of the proximity they all have with each other. I don't think they should be willingly chased out to the suburbs.

 

No one's chasing them out to the suburbs. The feds are moving out on their own. It would be nice if we had a visible mayor who put some pressure on federal officials to keep them here, however. The municipal/county law enforcement, courts and jails will stay in the city. The optimal design for a jail doesn't allow for a downtown location.

* cleveland.com Subscriber Exclusive *

 

Cuyahoga County Executive Armond Budish accused of secretly pushing for East Cleveland as location for new jail

Courtney Astolfi - Jan. 26, 2021

 

"Cuyahoga County Executive Armond Budish circumvented a committee that is considering locations for a new county jail by secretly asking consultants to target possible sites in East Cleveland, two committee members told cleveland.com and The Plain Dealer. ... Budish’s chief of staff, Bill Mason, issued a statement Tuesday that said there were a total of 28 sites that consultants ultimately presented for consideration to the committee. ...the consultant’s list included the two in East Cleveland - the former Arco dump and another site that would require uprooting about 70 homeowners."

With the amount of vacant land already around, there is absolutely NO reason to even be considering removing people from their homes in order to build a jail. This is just disgusting. 🤬🤬🤬

Yeah... that’s not a good look for Budish, at all. As if the folks in EC don’t have enough problems as it is.

If you want to build in E. Cleveland, how about tearing down the unsavable structures on Chapman Ave. and building there?

27 minutes ago, cfdwarrior said:

If you want to build in E. Cleveland, how about tearing down the unsavable structures on Chapman Ave. and building there?

No. Building ANOTHER jail in the middle of ANOTHER predominantly Black city/neighborhood is extremely offensive and sends the wrong message to residents. East Cleveland doesn't get much new development at all and one of the first things they'd wanna build is a jail?! Yeah an an African American I pass, it's a hard no. What logistical benefits are there to building in East Cleveland anyway? It's a landlocked suburb that isn't really close to any freeway. That is what makes this "recommendation' from Budish even more offensive, there is no reason to build there. 

 

I'd be willing to discuss the logistics (or lack thereof) of building a jail in East Cleveland but the symbolism and issue of building ANOTHER jail in another poor and predominantly black neighborhood that doesn't get any type of development outside of that doesn't even need discussion. Budish disgusts me.

16 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said:

No. Building ANOTHER jail in the middle of ANOTHER predominantly Black city/neighborhood is extremely offensive and sends the wrong message to residents. East Cleveland doesn't get much new development at all and one of the first things they'd wanna build is a jail?! Yeah an an African American I pass, it's a hard no. What logistical benefits are there to building in East Cleveland anyway? It's a landlocked suburb that isn't really close to any freeway. That is what makes this "recommendation' from Budish even more offensive, there is no reason to build there. 

 

I'd be willing to discuss the logistics (or lack thereof) of building a jail in East Cleveland but the symbolism and issue of building ANOTHER jail in another poor and predominantly black neighborhood that doesn't get any type of development outside of that doesn't even need discussion. Budish disgusts me.

I agree.

 

And yea, its not looking good for Budish in my opinion. This along with the existing investigation into the County IT department, just a decade or so after County leadership had to be completely dismantled and rebuilt due to corruption is not a good look at all.

If Budish hoped for re-election or another office, I think he just hurt his chances. Some people just don't know how to do things patiently, deliberately and apolitically. This Justice Center has been a thoughtful, data-driven and inclusive process so far. For him to suddenly jump outside of it and undermine all of the good work done so far is mind-blowing.

2 hours ago, KJP said:

If Budish hoped for re-election or another office, I think he just hurt his chances. Some people just don't know how to do things patiently, deliberately and apolitically. This Justice Center has been a thoughtful, data-driven and inclusive process so far. For him to suddenly jump outside of it and undermine all of the good work done so far is mind-blowing.

He's a legislator trying to be an executive.  They're very different skills.

3 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said:

No. Building ANOTHER jail in the middle of ANOTHER predominantly Black city/neighborhood is extremely offensive and sends the wrong message to residents. East Cleveland doesn't get much new development at all and one of the first things they'd wanna build is a jail?! Yeah an an African American I pass, it's a hard no. What logistical benefits are there to building in East Cleveland anyway? It's a landlocked suburb that isn't really close to any freeway. That is what makes this "recommendation' from Budish even more offensive, there is no reason to build there. 

 

I'd be willing to discuss the logistics (or lack thereof) of building a jail in East Cleveland but the symbolism and issue of building ANOTHER jail in another poor and predominantly black neighborhood that doesn't get any type of development outside of that doesn't even need discussion. Budish disgusts me.

My point wasn't to build in a black neighborhood, my point was if they were dead set on building in EC, why displace more people when you have a block of bombed out wasteland that needs to be removed.  

3 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said:

No. Building ANOTHER jail in the middle of ANOTHER predominantly Black city/neighborhood is extremely offensive and sends the wrong message to residents. East Cleveland doesn't get much new development at all and one of the first things they'd wanna build is a jail?! Yeah an an African American I pass, it's a hard no. What logistical benefits are there to building in East Cleveland anyway? It's a landlocked suburb that isn't really close to any freeway. That is what makes this "recommendation' from Budish even more offensive, there is no reason to build there. 

 

I'd be willing to discuss the logistics (or lack thereof) of building a jail in East Cleveland but the symbolism and issue of building ANOTHER jail in another poor and predominantly black neighborhood that doesn't get any type of development outside of that doesn't even need discussion. Budish disgusts me.

Agreed. What a stupid and tone deaf thing to do

I really hope, someday soon, we get some new faces in both the county and city government.  Sleepy Frank and Budish both gotta go! 

Touting a jail in East Cleveland these days is, amongst other things, horrible timing from Budish.  We just got a bird's eye view of his years-long effort to turn the County Jail into a profit center in last Sunday's PD.  Complete with attempting to elbow out Metro's provision of inmate health care services to a politically connected firm.  It's not hard to imagine that similar shenanigans are unfolding here.  I'm not implying anything illegal, just short-sightedness, tone deaf political instincts, and horrific urban planning.

 

Do we really want inmates being transferred up and down Euclid Avenue between downtown and East Cleveland five days a week?  Right through Ohio's second largest employment center in UC and CCF and soon to be burgeoning residential neighborhood?  Unbelievable.

Is it that much worse than the Justice Center moving to the whatever the hell the Opportunity Corridor is?

^Yes.

 

As much as E.C. has depopulated, the city still has some residential areas with majority homeowners who care about their community.  In contrast, the Opportunity Corridor has acres and acres of vacant formerly industrial land, which would be somewhat of a buffer between the residential areas and whatever would be proposed there.  

Cuyahoga County has issued the following request for qualifications:

 

Project Type: Site Development

Owner Type: Local Government

Publish Date: 02/27/2021

Type Of Work: Alterations, New Project

Project Delivery System: Design-Bid-Build

Status: Request for qualification for Engineering Services to Owner March 24 at 11:00 AM (EDT)

Contract Number: 4442

 

 

 

On 1/29/2021 at 12:54 PM, cfdwarrior said:

My point wasn't to build in a black neighborhood, my point was if they were dead set on building in EC, why displace more people when you have a block of bombed out wasteland that needs to be removed.  

 

 

actually that one block stretch of chapman ave that everybody throws up as a poster child for east cle decay and abandonment should be left alone as ruin porn for now as a reminder of how vibrant the area once was.

 

and the surrounding area nearby is far from abandoned. for example the other stretch of chapman across euclid is prefectly fine, even if euc itself is kinda underbaked near there nowadays.

 

so yeah it would be quite an insult to build a jail on that site, not to mention too inconvenient.

 

i dk if the new oc would be best, but on the surface its fine, so it would take a lot more vision and indepth planning for that corridor to show that it wouldnt be a good fit there.

A rather important decision time on the Justice Center courthouse is coming up at the end of the month

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2021/03/seventeen-10-story-projects-may-see.html

On 3/3/2021 at 3:07 PM, KJP said:

A rather important decision time on the Justice Center courthouse is coming up at the end of the month

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2021/03/seventeen-10-story-projects-may-see.html

KJP - still a chance at a courthouse tower approaching 35 stories?  The article mentions that it is still a consideration but is that an unlikely outcome from your research?

 

44 minutes ago, Chazz Michael Michaels said:

KJP - still a chance at a courthouse tower approaching 35 stories?  The article mentions that it is still a consideration but is that an unlikely outcome from your research?

 

 

The last I'd heard, and granted it was months ago, was that the steering committee favored a wider, mid-rise structure rather than a skyscraper. That would definitely reduce their construction costs, but it also reduces their site options. For a wide mid-rise concept, I thought the best site was the Bedrock site between Huron Rd and the river. But less of that land may be available, especially if Bedrock/Rocket Mortgage goes forward with development of some of that land. And after SHW donated the Breen Center to the city, I have to think that's going to be used for expansion of Canal Basin Park.

 

That leaves the existing jails/CPD HQ properties as a next-best location. But that means having to wait until the jails and new CPD HQ are built in anywhere from 2 to 200 years. And then the county has to build the new courthouse complex. We could be looking at 5-10 years before judges get a chance to move into their new chambers in the new courthouse. Some of them may be hanging up their robes by then. And the longer this takes, the more expensive it gets.

^ Would the "future development" are on the SW block be a possibility? 

8 minutes ago, cfdwarrior said:

^ Would the "future development" are on the SW block be a possibility? 

I hope not.  I would prefer to see low-rise structures that would blend in with the existing warehouse buildings.  I believe that is what Weston had planned.

 

Edited March 5, 20214 yr by skiwest

((>💡< ))  What chance of a "total gut-job" of Landmark from the tracks up into a new Justice Center with no conversion to residential?

...and a nice pretty addition to cover up that awful brick wall facing the Fieldhouse?

 

It would be a completely unexpected play, possibly too creative and complex, but I'll just throw that out here

Edited March 5, 20214 yr by ExPatClevGuy

I like the Bedrock site because I think there can be a synergy between the Justice Center and the Federal Court Tower, but I like the prospect of Rocket having offices there even more.

 

Is the Pit in play?  Not sure if it’s owned by the City or a private entity, but seems like a mid rise tower could be built there with easy transit access.

Probably an unlikely scenario, but if the casino moved to another location, would that give Rocket enough space for their expansion requirements in the Higbee building?  

2 hours ago, skiwest said:

I hope not.  I would prefer to see low-rise structures that would blend in with the existing warehouse buildings.  I believe that is what Weston had planned.

 

Agreed!

Whatever is decided, I hope the main tower is saved. Would make an amazing apartment tower. Imagine removing the windows, and turning those into recessed balconies. Have fold open doors to extend the living space to an awesome covered outdoor space. Would be a good way to shrink the floor plates as well.
 

Oh, and top off the building with a color changing translucent rim to really church it up. Jus dreaming 🙂

It would be a terrible apartment building. Look at where the elevator bank is located....next to the western side of the building. When you step out of the elevators, you're immediately next to the windows. It was done that way so that there could be larger courtrooms. The JC's floorplates are nearly 42,000 SF! In a conversion, that would result in some difficult, tunnel-like apartment layouts. It might make for a gigantic, multi-level call center, but those aren't in high demand. If they were, 45 Erieview with its huge floorplates (31,000 SF) would have been snapped up for a call center or similar use by now.

 

It might cost less to the demolish this poorly built and poorly designed monolith and replace it with a modern, sleek new skyscraper or three, all built around some terrific public spaces.

 

8 hours ago, KJP said:

It would be a terrible apartment building. Look at where the elevator bank is located....next to the western side of the building. When you step out of the elevators, you're immediately next to the windows. It was done that way so that there could be larger courtrooms. The JC's floorplates are nearly 42,000 SF! In a conversion, that would result in some difficult, tunnel-like apartment layouts. It might make for a gigantic, multi-level call center, but those aren't in high demand. If they were, 45 Erieview with its huge floorplates (31,000 SF) would have been snapped up for a call center or similar use by now.

 

It might cost less to the demolish this poorly built and poorly designed monolith and replace it with a modern, sleek new skyscraper or three, all built around some terrific public spaces.

 

Way to piss on my Corn Flakes this morning. Thanks Ken ;)

3 hours ago, marty15 said:

Way to piss on my Corn Flakes this morning. Thanks Ken ;)

 

Sorry. Maybe I can make it up to you with some interesting rumors. Waiting for some more info before I write it.

12 hours ago, KJP said:

It would be a terrible apartment building. Look at where the elevator bank is located....next to the western side of the building. When you step out of the elevators, you're immediately next to the windows. It was done that way so that there could be larger courtrooms. The JC's floorplates are nearly 42,000 SF! In a conversion, that would result in some difficult, tunnel-like apartment layouts. It might make for a gigantic, multi-level call center, but those aren't in high demand. If they were, 45 Erieview with its huge floorplates (31,000 SF) would have been snapped up for a call center or similar use by now.

 

It might cost less to the demolish this poorly built and poorly designed monolith and replace it with a modern, sleek new skyscraper or three, all built around some terrific public spaces.

 

Yes tearing down the entire complex could be cheaper in the long run, but I think it would be years & years with a sea of parking.

The justice center---for court rooms--is in a good location. And the block is huge. Could a new court tower be built in the same block (along with other bldgs)? If so, where would the court of common pleas and CLE muny courts conduct business during this time---is there a temporary facility that could be used or built?  Old juvenile court on E. 22 is still there and vacant. Anything else? The Cleveland Playhouse?    The courts must be downtown. "Opportunity" corridor makes no sense for the courts.

^Without a doubt another tower could be built on the same block. I would guess the police station and jail could be torn down in order to make space for a new tower. 
 

One of the main reasons why I’ve felt building another Justice Center in another location is a bad idea is that the current Justice Center takes up an entire block of downtown- and that we may be replacing one parking lot for another if the current Justice Center was torn down in its entirety. I wouldn’t be so sure about any potential development prospects for residential or office uses for the block. The Parking Lot District lot which is about to become a 1,000 car garage for SW is literally just one block southwest of the city jail, and it’s taken over 40 years to get that far. That doesn’t bode well for W. 3rd and Lakeside, IMO.

 

In my perfect world, the police station and jail are demolished, and a new court tower takes the space. The footprint of the jail and police station combined seems larger than the current court tower’s footprint so there would be the chance that the new tower would be shorter. However, we wouldn’t be losing one block of downtown for another, and that seems like a win. Also, with the new court tower being on the current site of the current Justice Center, all of the law firms around are still within walking distance. Win-win. 

Edited March 6, 20214 yr by Oldmanladyluck

18 hours ago, Oldmanladyluck said:

^Without a doubt another tower could be built on the same block. I would guess the police station and jail could be torn down in order to make space for a new tower. 
 

One of the main reasons why I’ve felt building another Justice Center in another location is a bad idea is that the current Justice Center takes up an entire block of downtown- and that we may be replacing one parking lot for another if the current Justice Center was torn down in its entirety. I wouldn’t be so sure about any potential development prospects for residential or office uses for the block. The Parking Lot District lot which is about to become a 1,000 car garage for SW is literally just one block southwest of the city jail, and it’s taken over 40 years to get that far. That doesn’t bode well for W. 3rd and Lakeside, IMO.

 

In my perfect world, the police station and jail are demolished, and a new court tower takes the space. The footprint of the jail and police station combined seems larger than the current court tower’s footprint so there would be the chance that the new tower would be shorter. However, we wouldn’t be losing one block of downtown for another, and that seems like a win. Also, with the new court tower being on the current site of the current Justice Center, all of the law firms around are still within walking distance. Win-win. 

Agree with all of this. And wouldn’t the old tower become an attractive location for legal based offices? Maybe an atrium could be cut into the inside. Post Office Plaza, albeit shorter, did that.

Edited March 7, 20214 yr by marty15

Agree with all of this. And wouldn’t the old tower become an attractive location for legal based offices? Maybe an atrium could be cut into the inside. Post Office Plaza, albeit shorter, did that.

The old tower needs a ton of work to be attractive. It’s a very old ugly concrete building. I’d probably just knock the whole thing down.


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Why not just dismantle it rather than implode it so that the caisson foundation can be used to support a new tower? It might save a developer quite a bit of money. 

On 3/6/2021 at 12:01 AM, KJP said:

It would be a terrible apartment building. Look at where the elevator bank is located....next to the western side of the building. When you step out of the elevators, you're immediately next to the windows. It was done that way so that there could be larger courtrooms. The JC's floorplates are nearly 42,000 SF! In a conversion, that would result in some difficult, tunnel-like apartment layouts. It might make for a gigantic, multi-level call center, but those aren't in high demand. If they were, 45 Erieview with its huge floorplates (31,000 SF) would have been snapped up for a call center or similar use by now.

 

It might cost less to the demolish this poorly built and poorly designed monolith and replace it with a modern, sleek new skyscraper or three, all built around some terrific public spaces.

 

 

Where did you get the floor plate size for the Justice Center? Google Maps is accurate enough for a decent estimate. The courthouse tower looks around 30,000 SQFT. The CPD building about 36k SQFT. Still large, but not impossible to convert to apartments. The tower would have some killer views.

 

Seems odd to demolish such a large (relatively new) structure. It has to be old enough for historic preservation credits. As much as I hate the buildings site plan, it's a decent representation of brutalist architecture. Ugly buildings have a habit of becoming cherished when they are old enough.

 

edit: Preservation credits may not allow demolishing sections to save just the courthouse tower, so it may not be feasible. It was just a thought.

 

Edited March 7, 20214 yr by Mendo

1 hour ago, Ruken said:

The old tower needs a ton of work to be attractive. It’s a very old ugly concrete building. I’d probably just knock the whole thing down.


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Believe it or not, it’s not concrete at all. It’s veneered in Spanish pink granite.

^It’s actually quite handsome very close up. It looks awful as soon as you’re more than 50 yards away though. 

Yes, there is some detail that is visible when close to it, but sadly it is not visible from a distance.

Believe it or not, it’s not concrete at all. It’s veneered in Spanish pink granite.

Huh, I learned something today!


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