An interesting idea which would work for this building would be a store like a City Target in the atrium area, with open concept office spaces on the upper floors. This building just isn't ideal for residential. 

The cost to renovate the Justice Center tower is prohibitive. That cost and the time delay factor as well as the inconvenience of moving offices around twice is why the county has pretty much eliminated renovation from consideration. Renovating and converting the 830,000-square-foot Ameritrust complex cost $170 million in 2012-14. A decade later, that's $207 million, or $250 per square foot. The Justice Center tower and its ground-floor atrium measure 750,000 square feet. To renovate and convert the Justice Center tower for residential or perhaps a mix of uses could cost about $188 million.

 

At that price, you could build 1.4 Lumen apartment towers, or a single 48-story apartment tower.

14 minutes ago, KJP said:

The cost to renovate the Justice Center tower is prohibitive. That cost and the time delay factor as well as the inconvenience of moving offices around twice is why the county has pretty much eliminated renovation from consideration. Renovating and converting the 830,000-square-foot Ameritrust complex cost $170 million in 2012-14. A decade later, that's $207 million, or $250 per square foot. The Justice Center tower and its ground-floor atrium measure 750,000 square feet. To renovate and convert the Justice Center tower for residential or perhaps a mix of uses could cost about $188 million.

 

At that price, you could build 1.4 Lumen apartment towers, or a single 48-story apartment tower.

 

Seems like it's time to mandate designs and construction techniques that facilitate re-use and de-construction.  Horrible waste of resources to tear down the Justice Center and toss it in a landfill.

1 hour ago, JSC216 said:

It will never happen but if they keep the building it would be amazing if they built 4 story buildings to wrap the tower. Having grass lawns surrounding a downtown skyscraper is such an odd thing. 

Not exactly when you take into consideration the context of when it was designed and built. The architectural community's response to the social climate (race riots, violent crime rates) in many cases was to design bunker like structures with significant setbacks and minimal street-side/level window exposures.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5017418,-81.675424,3a,75y,341.14h,89.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRu0Az1r70TLt2oR5OUK7aw!2e0!7i3328!8i1664

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.4926807,-81.6678262,3a,75y,298.34h,95.97t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sSsPR_R8Z-lv7n-p3naDxHQ!2e0!5s20110601T000000!7i13312!8i6656

 

And not just Cleveland - more examples out there but before we get too off-track:

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.163961,-86.783819,3a,75y,264.08h,108.75t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjW1RtI_ZdVOpoz_hkajD3A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

 

 

56 minutes ago, KJP said:

The cost to renovate the Justice Center tower is prohibitive. That cost and the time delay factor as well as the inconvenience of moving offices around twice is why the county has pretty much eliminated renovation from consideration. Renovating and converting the 830,000-square-foot Ameritrust complex cost $170 million in 2012-14. A decade later, that's $207 million, or $250 per square foot. The Justice Center tower and its ground-floor atrium measure 750,000 square feet. To renovate and convert the Justice Center tower for residential or perhaps a mix of uses could cost about $188 million.

 

At that price, you could build 1.4 Lumen apartment towers, or a single 48-story apartment tower.

They got $27 million in historic tax credits for the Ameritrust complex FWIW.

4 minutes ago, marty15 said:

They got $27 million in historic tax credits for the Ameritrust complex FWIW.

 

Wasn't one of them that catalytic tax credit that's no longer available?

 

Now, one possibility is the TMUD tax credit, if the General Assembly passes it. That could provide a significant amount of capital to a re-use of the Justice Center, or for tearing it all down and building something transformative on the 7-acre block on which the Justice Center complex now sets.

1 hour ago, Foraker said:

Seems like it's time to mandate designs and construction techniques that facilitate re-use and de-construction.  Horrible waste of resources to tear down the Justice Center and toss it in a landfill.

 

If a tear down is the route taken, I wonder if all that nice granite could be saved and used for something else. Probably cost prohibitive though.  

1 hour ago, KJP said:

 

Wasn't one of them that catalytic tax credit that's no longer available?

 

No, it was a credit from the very first round of the program, before the $5 million project cap was in place. Similar situation to John Hartness Brown.

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2020/01/committee-narrows-options-for-cuyahoga-county-jail-and-courthouse.html

Again with the "campus style" verbiage.

Not sure if this graphic has been posted yet. It's from today.

For the jail, yes.  The tower design is really not optimal.

 

At 15 acres, that's going to be a doozy to locate, the mother of all LULU's.  The best spot I can spy at a quick look over the city is maybe the area around the north end of Rockefeller, between 490, the tracks, and the river.  It looks like some of that is being used for fill dirt piles, at best.  There's a few spots that could add up to 15 acres there.

1 minute ago, freethink said:

Not sure if this graphic has been posted yet. It's from today.

 

So that's what's happening with our Lakefront!  It's going to be residential after all!?

2 hours ago, X said:

For the jail, yes.  The tower design is really not optimal.

 

At 15 acres, that's going to be a doozy to locate, the mother of all LULU's.  The best spot I can spy at a quick look over the city is maybe the area around the north end of Rockefeller, between 490, the tracks, and the river.  It looks like some of that is being used for fill dirt piles, at best.  There's a few spots that could add up to 15 acres there.

 

Again, I refer to this site, most of which is owned by ODOT. I show two maps --

1. shows only the publicly owned land (not including the Cleveland Black Oxide property and the potentially difficult RTA right of way); and

2. the red site as including the Cleveland Black Oxide property and building over the RTA right of way.

 

The red site could accommodate a low-rise jail "campus" and the blue site could accommodate the sheriff's HQ and possibly a parking deck with some retail (cafe, newsstand, convenience store, etc.) on the ground level.

 

Edited January 24, 20205 yr by KJP

How many acres is their current complex? Are they planning on putting 

JC, jail all on one campus. A 40 Story tower would not look good at this site.

 

Is the Cleveland Force Stadium negotiations   still ongoing?

3 minutes ago, simplythis said:

How many acres is their current complex? Are they planning on putting 

JC, jail all on one campus. A 40 Story tower would not look good at this site.

 

Is the Cleveland Force Stadium negotiations   still ongoing?

 

A shade more than 7 acres. They are planning a variety of options, including a courthouse and jail next to each other or separate.

 

Haven't heard anything about the Force stadium regarding sites.

Edited January 24, 20205 yr by KJP

How do we go from new courthouse Skyscapper to campus style. ? Wtf

I thought they wanted to maintain a presence near the existing courts, which are in the CBD. I don't see how that can be accomplished if they want a campus.

3 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

I thought they wanted to maintain a presence near the existing courts, which are in the CBD. I don't see how that can be accomplished if they want a campus.

Isn't the suggestion for a "possible" campus for the jail complex and not the courthouse?

14 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

Isn't the suggestion for a "possible" campus for the jail complex and not the courthouse?

 

Both options are being advanced for further, more in-depth study.

15 hours ago, freethink said:

Not sure if this graphic has been posted yet. It's from today.

How can you take this seriously when they’re using Comic Sans font ?

My own little contribution.....

 

 

FRIDAY, JANUARY 24, 2020

New downtown courthouse tower, nearby jail campus comes into focus

 

One of Greater Cleveland's largest real estate development projects is coming into focus. And no, it's not just the Sherwin-Williams headquarters and research facilities. But both are what real estate professionals call "whales."

The other whale is the new 1.7-million-square-foot-plus Justice Center. And based on votes this week by a steering committee of Justice Center stakeholders on how to address the poorly built, crumbling and overcrowded jail, courthouse tower and sheriff's offices, there's going to be a new jail and probably will be a new courthouse tower.

Among nine conceptual options for addressing the inadequate Justice Center which saw its construction begin 46 year ago, only one option received unanimous support from among the 12-person committee. That vote was to build a new downtown courthouse tower and a new, low-rise jail campus probably somewhere in the city of Cleveland.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2020/01/new-downtown-courthouse-tower-nearby.html

Thanks for the clarification of their priorities Ken. On another note, does the "Workhouse" still exist in Warrensville?

18 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Thanks for the clarification of their priorities Ken. On another note, does the "Workhouse" still exist in Warrensville?

 

Apparently, but is being phased out...

https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2018/03/transfer_of_clevelands_house_o.html

16 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Again, I refer to this site, most of which is owned by ODOT. I show two maps --

1. shows only the publicly owned land (not including the Cleveland Black Oxide property and the potentially difficult RTA right of way); and

2. the red site as including the Cleveland Black Oxide property and building over the RTA right of way.

 

The red site could accommodate a low-rise jail "campus" and the blue site could accommodate the sheriff's HQ and possibly a parking deck with some retail (cafe, newsstand, convenience store, etc.) on the ground level.

 

 

I figure that site has more potential for better uses.  It's closer to and more connected to Downtown and the Flats.  It's also highly visible to anyone coming or going into Downtown Cleveland.  "Welcome to Cleveland, See Our New Prison Complex!"

20 minutes ago, X said:

 

I figure that site has more potential for better uses.  It's closer to and more connected to Downtown and the Flats.  It's also highly visible to anyone coming or going into Downtown Cleveland.  "Welcome to Cleveland, See Our New Prison Complex!"

Like the billboard that used to be at the airport, "Welcome to Loserville." Great thing for visitors to see.

19 minutes ago, X said:

 

I figure that site has more potential for better uses.  It's closer to and more connected to Downtown and the Flats.  It's also highly visible to anyone coming or going into Downtown Cleveland.  "Welcome to Cleveland, See Our New Prison Complex!" New Prison Campus

FTFY!

 

But seriously your point about that first impression impact on visitors is a valid one. 

29 minutes ago, X said:

 

I figure that site has more potential for better uses. 

 

It doesn't. And there isn't a site in Cleveland that wants the prison next to it. But it has to be near downtown to be close to the lawyers, court, diversion programs, etc. This is the only site that can handle it and not cost a ton or require a bunch of demolitions.

Again, just slightly SE of this site there is quite a bit of land that seems to be lightly used- piles of fill dirt, still close to Downtown, but much less visible.  Not already publicly owned, but shouldn't be too expensive.  I get that there's little hope of TOD of any sort on the CSX yards in the short term, but over the lifespan of a prison facility that very likely can change.

^Agreed. I know the site makes a ton of sense for a prison facility, but it's also a chance to form some kind of connection to the Slavic Village nabe. I know there is currently no semblance of pedestrian oriented uses in that area, but gotta start somewhere. 

There is already a prison campus next to the post office, so maybe it makes sense for this area to become a prison district.  Let's face it, people coming into Cleveland from the south are seeing a rather gritty part of town already with the steel mills and such.  

1 hour ago, X said:

Again, just slightly SE of this site there is quite a bit of land that seems to be lightly used- piles of fill dirt, still close to Downtown, but much less visible.  Not already publicly owned, but shouldn't be too expensive.  I get that there's little hope of TOD of any sort on the CSX yards in the short term, but over the lifespan of a prison facility that very likely can change.

 

NS yards. And doubtful. There's been only one serious plan for that using site other than a rail yard in the last 90 years and that was for the new Cleveland Browns stadium in 1996. That area isn't an attractive area and no one else is going to use it for anything.  Why not put 1000 jobs for the jail in another few hundred jobs for the sheriff's HQ on that site with a new rapid station? It's about the best you could ever hope for for that location. And you don't have to design this 2-story of prison to look like a prison especially one somebody's driving by and most likely looking to their left at downtown not to the right at the post office, refineries and land that's been abandoned for much of my 50 years.

I think the parking lot circled in the picture below would be great for the courthouse tower.  Last I remember seeing SHW wasn’t buying it, and it’s right next to their current location, seems like the perfect fit.

Is this another Weston-owned lot?

i wonder if knocking down the building between those two parking lots and builidng there would be an option? 

 

14 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Is this another Weston-owned lot?

 

Yes. It was one of the proposed sites for the county administration building (see below).

 

Weston also had plans for a mid-rise apartment building here at one point. Last fall, Weston consolidated all of its parking leases from the Superblock onto this site to free up the Superblock for a sale to SHW, so if the Courthouse tower ends up here, the parking deck for it and the parking from Weston's parking leases for some of the surrounding residential buildings (including its own Standard Building) are going to have to end up somewhere. I think I recall someone saying that the county was looking at building a parking deck around here but I'm starting to lose track of everything. It's old age, information overload or a little of both.

 

12 minutes ago, G00pie said:

i wonder if knocking down the building between those two parking lots and builidng there would be an option? 

 

 

No. It's the Marion Building, also owned by Weston. It's a historic building in good condition in a designated historic district, so getting the OK to knock it down will be next to impossible. There are potential buyers for it, too.

 

And yes, @X, I do agree that the fill dirt site just south of here (24 acres at 2777-2929 Rockefeller Ave., owned by Cuyahoga Material Co dba Cuyahoga Asphalt Co.) might work, too. But it is a more difficult site and would probably require restoring the bridge over the NS/RTA tracks by the post office. We'll see what the county comes up with in the next year or so.

@KJP Honestly don't like the site you recommend, while its the right size for it all, it's kind of wrong to put a jailhouse next to the gateway of Cleveland. I would approve if they have good renderings for it, but people will probably think we're crazy.

Better here than the site they were considering, the Jacob's lot on PS.

 According to KJP’s article from this afternoon, a new downtown Courthouse Tower could certainly  be 35 stories - and that’s the shortest of three scenarios he mentioned. Given the height per floor of the current Courthouse Tower, if my math is right, we would be looking at the new 4th tallest building downtown, at about 560 feet high. (Erieview Tower is 529’). 

52 minutes ago, CleveFan said:

 According to KJP’s article from this afternoon, a new downtown Courthouse Tower could certainly  be 35 stories - and that’s the shortest of three scenarios he mentioned. Given the height per floor of the current Courthouse Tower, if my math is right, we would be looking at the new 4th tallest building downtown, at about 560 feet high. (Erieview Tower is 529’). 

Huh, so potentially the Tower could block northern views from SHW HQ. 

4 hours ago, tastybunns said:

@KJP Honestly don't like the site you recommend, while its the right size for it all, it's kind of wrong to put a jailhouse next to the gateway of Cleveland. I would approve if they have good renderings for it, but people will probably think we're crazy.

 

I wouldn't call it my recommendation. I posted it because some of the steering committee members were having a hard time imagining a 15-acre site being available anywhere near downtown. So I posted that map to show that there are indeed large properties available. There's also Scranton Peninsula, or Joel Scheer's property to the east on the other side of the river, or the Cuyahoga Material site on Rockefeller, or others.

 

 

4 hours ago, CleveFan said:

 According to KJP’s article from this afternoon, a new downtown Courthouse Tower could certainly  be 35 stories - and that’s the shortest of three scenarios he mentioned. Given the height per floor of the current Courthouse Tower, if my math is right, we would be looking at the new 4th tallest building downtown, at about 560 feet high. (Erieview Tower is 529’). 

 

I added to the article a link to the GSA showing how some of the federal court buildings they build would have floorplates around 20,000 sf. If that were done for the new Justice Center courthouse tower, it would result in a much taller tower. But I seem to recall some of the judges in the meeting earlier this week saying they liked having more courtrooms per floor. The current Justice Center courthouse tower has about 29,000 sf. A typical office building usually doesn't exceed 25,000 sf. And if they added the appellate/probate courts to this tower, it would of course be even taller.

 

Courthouse tower at 877,000 sf (without appellate/probate courts)......

 

29,000 sf floorplates: 30 floors

25,000 sf floorplates: 35 floors

20,000 sf floorplates: 44 floors

 

Courthouse tower at 1,077,000 sf (roughly, with appellate/probate courts)......

 

29,000 sf floorplates: 37 floors

25,000 sf floorplates: 43 floors

20,000 sf floorplates: 54 floors

 

Assumes no parking included in the base of the tower. Instead it would be in an adjacent, neighboring structure.

 

2 hours ago, surfohio said:

Huh, so potentially the Tower could block northern views from SHW HQ. 

 

 

If the courthouse tower is built at the Weston lot across West 3rd from Jail 2, yes. If the the courthouse tower is built at the Bedrock Riverview site, it could block SHW views to the south. If a tower is built to the west, it could block the setting sun for SHW.

Thanks KJP for  detailing number of stories versus floorplate size in a possible new Courthouse Tower. I would wager there will be some excited forum members after they see your post just above. The current Justice Center reaches 420 feet high, good enough for 8th tallest building in Cleveland at present.  But it has only 26 stories meaning an average of about 16 feet per floor.  At that average, even the 30 floor/ 29,000 sf floorplate version would reach 480 feet and rank as 5th tallest in the city (assuming that SHW's new HQ doesn't exceed that mark.)   So for fun, consider a Courthouse Tower in the  20,000 sf version at 877,000 sf - with a 16 feet per floor average.   That would become the city's 3rd tallest tower at 704 feet.  And a possible future tower that incorporated appellate and probate courts, at 54 stories - it would tower to 864 feet.  Obviously,  if judges' preferences led to more courtrooms per floor we'd get one of the shorter versions, but still skyline changing - unless some form of campus model leads to two shorter towers.  I was curious and googled but couldn't find the floor plate size of the Carl Stokes Courthouse Tower.  It looks to have a larger floorplate size - making me think the "more courtrooms per floor" model is preferred.  The Stokes Tower, by the way, is the 4th tallest Courthouse tower in the country at 430 feet but only 23 stories - an average of almost 19 feet per floor.  If that's the standard for the future Justice Center -  my calculations are actually too short across the board. Finally, if the current Justice Center is too expensive to be converted to residential - would it ultimately be destroyed?  As I looked at a new, rather stunning sunrise pic of the city on "Wikipedia",  I tried to imagine the unloved tallest tower built in the 70's out of the skyline - It would create quite a void. 

I have to believe they will at least use 25,000 sq ft plates. Stokes Courthouse officially listed as 18.7 ft per floor. 

877,000 sq ft with 25,000 sq ft floor plates = 35 floors. At 16 ft per floor = 560ft. At 18.7 ft per floor = 654.5 ft.

 

1,077,000 sq ft with 25,000 sq ft floor plates = 43 floors. At 16 ft per floor = 688ft. At 18.7 ft = 804 ft.

 

This could be a massive tower. I hope they use 18.7 ft floors. ?

County continues to sink money into improving JC utility.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2020/02/cuyahoga-county-signs-contract-for-central-booking-facility-the-wake-up-for-thursday-feb-27-2020.html

Edited February 28, 20205 yr by Frmr CLEder

 

 

On 1/23/2020 at 8:42 PM, KJP said:

 

Again, I refer to this site, most of which is owned by ODOT. I show two maps --

1. shows only the publicly owned land (not including the Cleveland Black Oxide property and the potentially difficult RTA right of way); and

2. the red site as including the Cleveland Black Oxide property and building over the RTA right of way.

 

The red site could accommodate a low-rise jail "campus" and the blue site could accommodate the sheriff's HQ and possibly a parking deck with some retail (cafe, newsstand, convenience store, etc.) on the ground level.

 

 

Why don't they consider the current SHW research facility? It is near the current federal court house and will allow current transportation infrastructure to be utilized? 

On 1/25/2020 at 3:12 AM, CleveFan said:

Finally, if the current Justice Center is too expensive to be converted to residential - would it ultimately be destroyed?  As I looked at a new, rather stunning sunrise pic of the city on "Wikipedia",  I tried to imagine the unloved tallest tower built in the 70's out of the skyline - It would create quite a void. 

 

 

i would guess if it cant be redeveloped then it would be mothballed with no rush to tear it down until there is something planned to replace it?

 

otoh, it is a hideous eyesore  --- the tower part more so than the lower sections.

 

hmm.

 

what do you do with something like that?

 

jail cell pod hostel hotel? ? 

Planning costs for Cuyahoga County Justice Center project climb to $2 million

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2020/04/planning-costs-for-cuyahoga-county-justice-center-project-climb-to-2-million.html

 

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2020/06/committee-considering-new-cuyahoga-county-jail-and-courthouse-hoping-to-meet-in-august.html

https://indd.adobe.com/view/c6e0ffd6-e59c-4409-9e9e-470398c57ecf

 

 

Starting on Page 38, there is an article which the Cleveland Metropolitan Bar Journal has published a couple of times now, which makes the case for the successor courthouse to be a Green, LEED Certified building and references newer built courthouses.  Not overly noteworthy, but just thought I'd share.

Edited June 23, 20204 yr by HGRHS

Link doesn’t work ?