5 hours ago, Growth Mindset said:

Link doesn’t work ?

Thanks. Fixed!

I moved the conversation from random development because I suspect that this information might stimulate some discussion/debate....

 

3 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

The Justice Center Tower is the big surprise here!

 

This has it as #2 in height, even surpassing the proposed SW HQ.

 

Opinions vary about the height, but the new Justice Center could range from 877,000 to 1 .1 million square feet of space, with some floors having high ceilings like the Stokes federal courthouse, plus a massive parking garage of some 500,000 to 600,000 square feet, it's going to be a massive project. I speculated on potential heights in this article....

http://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2020/01/new-downtown-courthouse-tower-nearby.html

 

 

But it may not be that high. I may have another article about this soon.

 

22 minutes ago, KJP said:

I moved the conversation from random development because I suspect that this information might stimulate some discussion/debate....

 

 

Opinions vary about the height, but the new Justice Center could range from 877,000 to 1 .1 million square feet of space, with some floors having high ceilings like the Stokes federal courthouse, plus a massive parking garage of some 500,000 to 600,000 square feet, it's going to be a massive project. I speculated on potential heights in this article....

http://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2020/01/new-downtown-courthouse-tower-nearby.html

 

 

But it may not be that high. I may have another article about this soon.

 

Can we get a “BOOM”? 

Maybe a BOOM BOOM if it ends up being that tall.

The article wouldn't really be news, per se. There is a little but it would be mostly speculative based on that tidbit.

As promised....

 

 

TUESDAY, AUGUST 11, 2020

Cleveland's next 'whale' may eat more land than first thought

 

While the steering committee is away, the consultants will play. But the consultants are getting ready to give a report on their findings about a new Justice Center. And what they have to say will bring into sharper focus the realistic sites for a new downtown courthouse as well as a new jail.

 

The committee is the 12-person panel of Justice Center stakeholders overseeing the planning for more than 2.5 million square feet of new or renovated county jail and courthouse facilities. The consultants are being directed by the committee. They include Project Management Consultants LLC and DLR Group.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2020/08/clevelands-next-whale-may-eat-more-land.html

Another very interesting, well detailed article, @KJP!  Thanks, as always. I would think that quick access to related infrastructure/ restaurants would make the Stark-owned site the favorite, especially in view of a longer, more complicated process  that a "redo" of the current Justice Center would require.  In addition, as stated in the article, the committee would prefer a site as close as possible to the existing one.  The mostly Stark-owned site is considerably smaller, which might favor the high-rise courthouse tower.  But it sounds like the "mid-rise" option would still work there.  Even a 15 story mid-rise in the form of a courthouse building could easily  yield a 300' high structure, given the expansive floors in courthouses.  Does the committee want  the jail and courthouse essentially side by side?    The Bedrock site would seem to offer that option and benefit Tower City more than any other.  It might seem like the perfect opportunity to redefine the Bedrock site - but would such a development, reaching down to the Cuyahoga, actually help or hurt potential future access and interaction with the river?  What is the city's vision, if any, for that crucial land?   Sites #4 - #7 seem a bit far from the hub of supporting businesses, at least in "Cleveland terms" and would seem like a harder sell to the committee.  A hopeful takeaway- given the inflationary factor of a 5% increase in cost per year, perhaps this project gets pushed up faster than we originally thought.  My hope is that, whatever the site and the eventual model - I hope the project might yield a new model of excellence in Cleveland in terms of the justice system, akin to  what Cleveland's reputation has become in the medical field.  Obviously, money will be a key factor in forthcoming decisions  - but hopefully, not at a loss of the great opportunity that presents itself  - if we have the vision and leadership.  

Edited August 12, 20204 yr by CleveFan

6 hours ago, CleveFan said:

Another very interesting, well detailed article, @KJP!  Thanks, as always. I would think that quick access to related infrastructure/ restaurants would make the Stark-owned site the favorite, especially in view of a longer, more complicated process  that a "redo" of the current Justice Center would require.  In addition, as stated in the article, the committee would prefer a site as close as possible to the existing one.  The mostly Stark-owned site is considerably smaller, which might favor the high-rise courthouse tower.  But it sounds like the "mid-rise" option would still work there.  Even a 15 story mid-rise in the form of a courthouse building could easily  yield a 300' high structure, given the expansive floors in courthouses.  Does the committee want  the jail and courthouse essentially side by side?    The Bedrock site would seem to offer that option and benefit Tower City more than any other.  It might seem like the perfect opportunity to redefine the Bedrock site - but would such a development, reaching down to the Cuyahoga, actually help or hurt potential future access and interaction with the river?  What is the city's vision, if any, for that crucial land?   Sites #4 - #7 seem a bit far from the hub of supporting businesses, at least in "Cleveland terms" and would seem like a harder sell to the committee.  A hopeful takeaway- given the inflationary factor of a 5% increase in cost per year, perhaps this project gets pushed up faster than we originally thought.  My hope is that, whatever the site and the eventual model - I hope the project might yield a new model of excellence in Cleveland in terms of the justice system, akin to  what Cleveland's reputation has become in the medical field.  Obviously, money will be a key factor in forthcoming decisions  - but hopefully, not at a loss of the great opportunity that presents itself  - if we have the vision and leadership.  

I wouldn’t want the jail there but the Justice Center by itself would be a huge boon for the area if it went to Bedrock

So long as we're pretending, I like the excuse of developing a downtown loop to serve the site on Payne Avenue...but even with that combination, I'm sure the board members would heavily prefer either the Bedrock or Stark sites.

Nice article! It’s always terrifying when the county is making a decision on downtown real estate. Fingers crossed it’s not another multi-million blunder that gets passed down to multiple future generations.

2 hours ago, inlovewithCLE said:

I wouldn’t want the jail there but the Justice Center by itself would be a huge boon for the area if it went to Bedrock

 

The jail won't be downtown. 

57 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

The jail won't be downtown. 

 

Could they put the courthouse on the river front, with the jail over in the vacant lots just to the south of the innerbelt ramps?   They could be connected via a tunnel for prisoner transport....  

 

I know, SIM city Europe-level infrastructure dreaming....

1 hour ago, KJP said:

 

The jail won't be downtown. 

Thank God lol. Where are you heading the jail may be located?

 

and in your opinion which of the JC locations have the potential to create the most spinoff development? I’m inclined to believe Bedrock. I think it would be huge for that area and for Tower City

If JC goes to Bedrock, could old SHW HQ become a haven for law offices?

If the county is indeed leaning mid-rise when it comes to the Court tower, then the Bedrock property near the River is probably the best site.  It's has the most room for the expanded footprint that would be required and leaves the WHD open for future (and hopefully taller) development that will have greater impact upon the skyline long-term.

 

I'm still not a huge fan of having a courthouse dominate a large portion of the riverfront, as I would prefer residential and some retail there above all other uses.  A courthouse would likely take that area in an institutional and office building direction (particularly because the federal courthouse is not far away).  But it's not like that residential and retail down there is anywhere close to fruition, so maybe the "whale" that is the courthouse project is the best way to kickstart development in an otherwise barren and disconnected area.

Edited August 12, 20204 yr by Down_with_Ctown

49 minutes ago, inlovewithCLE said:

Thank God lol. Where are you heading the jail may be located?

 

and in your opinion which of the JC locations have the potential to create the most spinoff development? I’m inclined to believe Bedrock. I think it would be huge for that area and for Tower City

 

I know I'm not KJP, but it seems like a good integration with new CPD HQ/campus? Kind of a knock to the 'Opportunity Corridor' branding though having JJC and that right there.

 

Not sure if a jail has to be downtown (outside of 'convenience' to the courts) maybe someone else can better answer that.

15 minutes ago, Down_with_Ctown said:

I'm still not a huge fan of having a courthouse dominate a large portion of the riverfront, as I would prefer residential and some retail there above all other uses.

 

Agree. The courts should be within the city grid. The riverfront, just like the lakefront, should be saved for more versatile and variable 24/7 types of development.  

2 hours ago, inlovewithCLE said:

Thank God lol. Where are you heading the jail may be located?

 

and in your opinion which of the JC locations have the potential to create the most spinoff development? I’m inclined to believe Bedrock. I think it would be huge for that area and for Tower City

 

Since a jail campus will need a lot of land, I think the jail could end up in the Opportunity Corridor near the CPD HQ. That might drag the sheriff's office along with it. But the jail and probably the Sheriff's office may end up just south of the Inner Belt. Since it's publicly owned (ODOT) land, it's the cheapest big piece of land close to downtown yet not in downtown. A big piece of privately owned land might  otherwise be too expensive.

 

2 hours ago, skiwest said:

If JC goes to Bedrock, could old SHW HQ become a haven for law offices?

 

Maybe part of it. Or...perhaps SHW's R&D facilities?

Edited August 12, 20204 yr by KJP

19 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Maybe part of it. Or...perhaps SHW's R&D facilities?

Wait what?  Could they be staying downtown?

 

38 minutes ago, G00pie said:

Wait what?  Could they be staying downtown?

 

No, that was response by @KJP to my though about the possibility of re-purposing the current SHW HQ as law offices if the new Justice Center is built on the Bedrock property.

Edited August 13, 20204 yr by skiwest

^ I made the same mistake, Goopie.

Oh ok,  I got a little excited

 

1 hour ago, nate said:

Jesus Christ, for all of Cleveland's problems, I thought there would be less advocates for a 40 story courthouse paid for with public funds. Are y'all dense or what? How about using some of the money to make us not the poorest city in America, rather than rewarding those who uphold a garbage system with a billion dollar shiny tower. 

 

I encourage you to read the data on keeping and renovating the existing Justice Center complex vs replacing it with a new consolidated jail and a new courthouse facility.

Edited September 28, 20204 yr by KJP

 

I've been reporting that this is the direction that they were heading for a while....

 

Cuyahoga County Justice Center committee recommends building separate jail outside of downtown

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2020/11/cuyahoga-county-justice-center-committee-recommends-building-separate-jail-outside-of-downtown.html

8 hours ago, KJP said:

I've been reporting that this is the direction that they were heading for a while....

 

Cuyahoga County Justice Center committee recommends building separate jail outside of downtown

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2020/11/cuyahoga-county-justice-center-committee-recommends-building-separate-jail-outside-of-downtown.html

 

There will be lots of new employment in prisoner transport... 

42 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

 

There will be lots of new employment in prisoner transport... 

 

Not according to the county. The same deputies who are walking prisoners from cells to court rooms now will be the same ones moving them in vehicles in the future. The county and their consultants used Philadelphia as an example. There, they have a large jail facility (Curran-Fromhold Correctional Facility) built outside of downtown but a smaller detention facility downtown several blocks from the courthouse. I seem to recall some talk of having a small detention facility at/near Cleveland/Cuyahoga County's future courthouse for arraignments and short-term holding. Philadelphia ended up saving money even with the transportation of inmates. So does Cleveland/Cuyahoga County.

Edited November 13, 20204 yr by KJP

I'll never subscribe to Cle.com (clicking the link was painful enough), but is there any talk in the story about possible locations?

KJP: How can you read this article without subscribing to cle.com?

16 minutes ago, simplythis said:

KJP: How can you read this article without subscribing to cle.com?

 

Moderators frown on anyone sharing shortcuts/bypasses around paywalls. So I won't do that here.

 

That said, I didn't encounter a paywall when I clicked on the above article.

1 hour ago, KJP said:

 

Moderators frown on anyone sharing shortcuts/bypasses around paywalls. So I won't do that here.

 

That said, I didn't encounter a paywall when I clicked on the above article.

Any update in the CLE.com article about the courthouse tower.  If memory serves me correctly, there were (4) possibilities for the Justice Center Complex being considered.  Two of the options were a low rise jail and a new courthouse tower (Option 1 - high rise tower and  Option 2 - mid rise tower).  Since the low rise jail seems to have been decided, can we assume that the other two options are out and we are down to either a high rise courthouse tower or a mid rise courthouse tower (with me selfishly preferring the former).  

31 minutes ago, Chazz Michael Michaels said:

Any update in the CLE.com article about the courthouse tower. 

Not much about the courthouse tower in the article other than the committee stating that it should remain downtown. 

This was the key takeaway for me:

 

Quote

Jeff Appelbaum, a local attorney leading the consultants, said it should take about a year to complete the planning and design of a new jail. Two options exist, he said. One would be two levels built on 15 acres and the other would be one level on 30 acres.

 

It also said:

 

Quote

The committee’s decision on Thursday included giving the consultants the authority to start looking at potential sites for a jail and to figure out who will be involved in funding it.

 

It closed with the fact there is no arrangement for the County to share costs with Cleveland, but that the city will likely contribute funding eventually.

OK, so it's going to be on 15-30 acres in the City of Cleveland. That narrows it down a bit.

Quite a lot, really.  There are few sites of that size within city limits.  I'd put my money on it ending up somewhere in the vicinity of Rockefeller Ave. and Transport Rd.  If not there, somewhere along the tracks that go N-S just to the west of East 93rd.  A lot of that area is scrapyards.  The only other area I could see it going is St. Clair in the 200's.

^St. Clair in the 200s would be Euclid...  which pretty much starts at E. 200/St.Clair.  I could definitely see it along Rockefeller Ave., which was my first thought when reading they’re looking for a site between 15 - 30 acres.  But wouldn’t that site throw a wrench in the soccer stadium plans? 

 

I think there would be pushback from any council person who has this proposed close to a residential area. There might be that amount of space along Bessemer between E. 79th and E. 93rd, which may be far away enough from any residential communities close by. That area is pretty much industrial.
 

 

33 minutes ago, Oldmanladyluck said:

I could definitely see it along Rockefeller Ave., which was my first thought when reading they’re looking for a site between 15 - 30 acres.  But wouldn’t that site throw a wrench in the soccer stadium plans?

 

No, there's quite a bit of separation between the two sites.

What about locating the NEW COUNTY JAIL near the New Cleveland Police Department HQ near the OPPORTUNITY CORRIDOR?

 

Which MAYBE with the critical mass of new employees to the area will help to jumpstart the renewal of the so called "forgotten triangle" ? 

 

With both the CPD HQ and the County Jail located there it should at the very least attract some new restaurants and other retail nearby considering the large number of employees working there 24 hours a day and night.  And by the time they are open in a couple of years the CORONAVIRUS VIRUS should be under control and retail, restaurants, apartments, and other type of businesses should be eager to open and hopefully expand.

Edited November 14, 20204 yr by Larry1962
More details

6 hours ago, Larry1962 said:

What about locating the NEW COUNTY JAIL near the New Cleveland Police Department HQ near the OPPORTUNITY CORRIDOR?

 

Which MAYBE with the critical mass of new employees to the area will help to jumpstart the renewal of the so called "forgotten triangle" ? 

 

With both the CPD HQ and the County Jail located there it should at the very least attract some new restaurants and other retail nearby considering the large number of employees working there 24 hours a day and night.  And by the time they are open in a couple of years the CORONAVIRUS VIRUS should be under control and retail, restaurants, apartments, and other type of businesses should be eager to open and hopefully expand.

Don’t think it’s a good look to have the jail on the opportunity corridor. I get what you’re saying though 

Why not just do bail reform and reduce the need for a county jail?

16 minutes ago, freefourur said:

Why not just do bail reform and reduce the need for a county jail?

 

I think this would be great.  A jail is the ultimate LULU for a gov't to try to site, so the more it can be lessened, the easier it would be.

 

Oh, and also justice and fairness!

17 minutes ago, freefourur said:

Why not just do bail reform and reduce the need for a county jail?

With Clevelands high violent crime rate there will always be a need for a jail.

I definitely think some people are in jail for crimes that don’t warrant it but let’s not forget that Cleveland has its most homicides since 1993 with over 150 and that doesn’t include all the other violent crimes that have occurred. The need for a large county jail unfortunately isn’t going anywhere. 

2 hours ago, inlovewithCLE said:

Don’t think it’s a good look to have the jail on the opportunity corridor. I get what you’re saying though 

 

I even wrote an April Fools Day article about it in 2019....  😆

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/04/new-county-jails-proposed-as-uc-high.html

3 hours ago, cle_guy90 said:

I definitely think some people are in jail for crimes that don’t warrant it but let’s not forget that Cleveland has its most homicides since 1993 with over 150 and that doesn’t include all the other violent crimes that have occurred. The need for a large county jail unfortunately isn’t going anywhere. 

The majority of people in county jail are there for bs charges. They are too poor to afford bail. Listen to the Serial podcast about this topic. It was eye opener for me.

This is from the "Cleveland Opportunity Corridor Brownfields Area Wide Plan" from 2013:

https://opportunitycorridor.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/2013-03-25-opportunity-corridor-brownfields-report-draft-email.pdf

 

The new Police Headquarters will be "in the area where Grand Avenue and East 75th street now intersect." The "campus-style complex" would likely be located in the 2A or 2C redevelopment area. Whichever one is not used by the CPD is just over 15 acers in an unencumbered redevelopment scenario, enough room for a two story jail. It could also fit in redevelopment area 3B. 

https://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/2020/01/cleveland-city-council-approves-plan-to-build-new-police-headquarters-on-the-opportunity-corridor.html

 

Also (FWIW) the county Juvenile Justice and Detention Center is also located in the area at 93rd and Quincy. So its not like there isn't already a county detention facility located next to the Opportunity Corridor.

 

 

The Police HQ will be in 2A, north of Grand Avenue, west of East 75th.

 

Land use plans by BBC show station-area development in 2C:

 

16 hours ago, freefourur said:

Why not just do bail reform and reduce the need for a county jail?

Someone thumbs-downed this post?  How could anyone possibly be against bail reform? Bail is a scam that perpetuators cycles of poverty and allows those who can afford it to purchase their freedom and those who can’t to sit in jail thereby disenfranchising them even more.  It’s classist and racist. 
 

And freefourur said “reduce” the need for a jail, not get rid of the jail completely (if that was the reason for the thumbs down.) 

 

That being said, I’d like to see this built by the Juvenile Justice center. 

This really isn't the place for extensive conversation about bail or justice reform, unless it's directly related to the planning of the new jail facilities.

1 hour ago, X said:

This really isn't the place for extensive conversation about bail or justice reform, unless it's directly related to the planning of the new jail facilities.

I thought the connection was clear. It was directly related as it has to do with the possible size of the facility. If there is bail reform, a smaller facility will suffice. If not, it will have to be bigger.