September 20, 20222 yr If the cost for new vs renovation is about the same, then new is definitely the way to go. It doesn't have to be as glitzy as San Diego. One less Brutalist structure in Cleveland would be OK with me. I was in San Diego about 5 years ago, and there must have been about a dozen cranes downtown. I realize Cleveland is no San Diego, but damn.
September 20, 20222 yr 8 hours ago, cadmen said: But after being reminded by the photo of the San Diego court building the contrast is just too much and serves to remind me of how ugly the JC is and how I think that no mater how hard we try to give it a new look it will be the same as putting lipstick on a pig. That tower is so ponderous, somehow managing to be tall and squat at the same time. It is so soul suckingly beige it overwhelms the beauty of the buildings around it. Finally, it is a reminder of a time ('70's) when things really started to go wrong in our city. Something similar to the Seneca One renovation in Buffalo could go a long way in making the tower look sleeker and more modern:
September 21, 20222 yr 10 hours ago, cadmen said: But after being reminded by the photo of the San Diego court building the contrast is just too much and serves to remind me of how ugly the JC is and how I think that no mater how hard we try to give it a new look it will be the same as putting lipstick on a pig. That tower is so ponderous, somehow managing to be tall and squat at the same time. It is so soul suckingly beige it overwhelms the beauty of the buildings around it. Finally, it is a reminder of a time ('70's) when things really started to go wrong in our city. We don't need a building that personifies those bleak times. @cadmen, You effectively captured in words what i have felt about this building for its entire existence. Soul -sucking in so many ways. Blehh.
September 21, 20222 yr A lot of Ameritrust sentiment here. Definitely needs saved and repurposed if a new JC is the way.
September 21, 20222 yr 17 hours ago, sonisharri said: Something similar to the Seneca One renovation in Buffalo could go a long way in making the tower look sleeker and more modern:
September 21, 20222 yr ^ I’ve mentioned before, probably upthread somewhere, that I find the JC to be a handsome-enough building and I’d hate to see it torn down. A treatment like that could work well. However, I have learned on this thread over the years, of the first-hand accounts of the awful state of the interior and it’s unworkable floor-plates. That may be more of it’s death-knell than pure aesthetics. My hovercraft is full of eels
September 21, 20222 yr 6 minutes ago, roman totale XVII said: ^ I’ve mentioned before, probably upthread somewhere, that I find the JC to be a handsome-enough building and I’d hate to see it torn down. A treatment like that could work well. However, I have learned on this thread over the years, of the first-hand accounts of the awful state of the interior and it’s unworkable floor-plates. That may be more of it’s death-knell than pure aesthetics. I wonder how the floor plates differ from M&T in Buffalo to the JC in Cleveland? From afar they seem similar sized structures?
September 21, 20222 yr 2 hours ago, sizzlinbeef said: Nice render. I'm in the camp that says - if the costs are largely the same (refurb vs tear-down/build-new) I say build new.. Below is a picture of the courthouse tower in Portland (right) compared to a red block similar to the Seneca One tower (left). I don't know about you - but I prefer the tower on the right
September 22, 20222 yr Estimated cost of jail w/interest- Jail: $725M Interest: $1.2 BILLION Total: $~2B This DOES NOT include a court tower which is estimated to cost $1B. Absolutely friggin' wild, even moreso that they're trying to strap a new executive with this, after having years and years to work this through. Edited September 22, 20222 yr by GISguy cleared up my post from earlier
September 29, 20222 yr https://www.cleveland.com/news/2022/09/justice-center-steering-committee-to-vote-on-jail-property-review-renovation-study-next-week.html
September 30, 20222 yr Cuyahoga County executive candidates ask council to stop jail planning, lay out concerns, alternatives https://www.cleveland.com/news/2022/09/cuyahoga-county-executive-candidates-call-for-council-to-stop-jail-planning-lay-out-concerns-alternatives.html
October 3, 20222 yr Hello UO environmental remediation experts, I don't currently live in Cleveland, so forgive my ignorance. Is it actually true that there are not multiple sites that could constitute 40 contiguous acres of land that isn't - figuratively speaking - sitting on a former Superfund site? Seems bizarre that one would propose residential housing, even in the form of a jail at this site.
October 4, 20222 yr 10 hours ago, marty15 said: It’s just stupid that they “need” 40 acres for this. It is for a horizontal arranged, geometrically designed jail facility where building heights are no more than two acres. They believe that this meets current jail design requirements and be compliant with current state standards. The site requirements were published here: https://neo-trans.blog/2021/12/10/a-large-property-near-you-may-be-ripe-for-a-jail/ Jail facility concept: "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 4, 20222 yr Hired consultant concludes Cuyahoga County jail renovation ‘possible’ but ‘not practical’ https://www.cleveland.com/news/2022/10/hired-consultant-concludes-cuyahoga-county-jail-renovation-possible-but-not-practical.html
October 4, 20222 yr 17 hours ago, DO_Summers said: Hello UO environmental remediation experts, I don't currently live in Cleveland, so forgive my ignorance. Is it actually true that there are not multiple sites that could constitute 40 contiguous acres of land that isn't - figuratively speaking - sitting on a former Superfund site? Seems bizarre that one would propose residential housing, even in the form of a jail at this site. Your questions are addressed thoroughly here: Cuyahoga County officials explain how they narrowed jail search to toxic Transport Road site
October 4, 20222 yr The Justice Center Executive Steering Committee meeting is also currently going on:
October 4, 20222 yr Justice Center Steering Committee rejects toxic Transport Road site for new jail https://www.cleveland.com/news/2022/10/justice-center-steering-committee-rejects-transport-road-site-for-new-jail.html
October 4, 20222 yr I hope they use someone other than Appelbaum w/a new administration. His background and "it's in the bag" attitude really was off-putting. Dude made a bunch of money on this though, good for his pocketbook. PS- all that said, council can still ignore this and vote to purchase it Edited October 4, 20222 yr by GISguy
October 6, 20222 yr If we’re talking about site remediation of the Transport Road site as a negative cost wise, I get it. But plenty of land, especially in cleveland, requires remediation and I think it’s unhelpful to talk about it in terms of “toxic” implying that it would be unsafe for using that land. I also see online (mainly Twitter) people extremely upset about building a new jail. What are our other options though? The current conditions at the jail are inhumane, and I’m embarrassed as a resident. All of the options suck and will be expensive. Maybe I’m missing something obvious I don’t know.
October 6, 20222 yr 13 minutes ago, Enginerd said: If we’re talking about site remediation of the Transport Road site as a negative cost wise, I get it. But plenty of land, especially in cleveland, requires remediation and I think it’s unhelpful to talk about it in terms of “toxic” implying that it would be unsafe for using that land. I also see online (mainly Twitter) people extremely upset about building a new jail. What are our other options though? The current conditions at the jail are inhumane, and I’m embarrassed as a resident. All of the options suck and will be expensive. Maybe I’m missing something obvious I don’t know. There are some who believe the Transport Road site is poisonous. It's not. Battery Park had at least as many environmental problems with its site. And there are others who believe we should not be building a new jail that adds more capacity and should instead keep/renovate the 1990s jail building for the more serious offenders and divert to treatment programs the less serious offenders. I'm not sure how I feel about that yet as I don't know what the numbers are in terms of diverted offenders. I am sympathetic to it, however. I do believe that many people who are addicted to drugs/alcohol belong in treatment and not necessarily jail. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 12, 20222 yr "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 12, 20222 yr 8 hours ago, marty15 said: Fix it where it’s at. How bout no? Why do taxpayers have to front the bill for a renovation that’s going to cost significantly more than a new building elsewhere.
October 12, 20222 yr 1 hour ago, Metz44 said: How bout no? Why do taxpayers have to front the bill for a renovation that’s going to cost significantly more than a new building elsewhere. Government has an innate tendency to massively overestimate the less preferred option, at the same time, underestimating the preferred option. Why we always see huge cost overruns on government projects, when in reality, it was the true cost from the beginning. This game is played over and over.
October 12, 20222 yr 12 minutes ago, marty15 said: Government has an innate tendency to massively overestimate the less preferred option, at the same time, underestimating the preferred option. Why we always see huge cost overruns on government projects, when in reality, it was the true cost from the beginning. This game is played over and over. The consultant hired to analyze renovating the existing Justice center did not provide a cost estimate and stated that was outside his scope or work. So we don’t even know which is more or less yet.
October 12, 20222 yr Here's the article: https://www.cleveland.com/news/2022/10/cuyahoga-county-puts-all-jail-planning-on-hold.html A quote from Council Prez Jones: “While I strongly believe that further delay is a mistake, it is their mistake to make,” Jones said of the next executive. “I urge the next county executive to swiftly identify a plan and a funding source for addressing the critical needs at the county jail. Council will be ready to work in good faith to consider your proposal.” He's been on council since 2011 and the failing jail report was issued in 2014. Pinning this on the next executive is a pretty wild strategy when they've had so much time to debate this that the cost of the project nearly doubled in since they first started planning it. Edited October 12, 20222 yr by GISguy
October 12, 20222 yr 1 hour ago, GISguy said: Here's the article: https://www.cleveland.com/news/2022/10/cuyahoga-county-puts-all-jail- He's been on council since 2011 and the failing jail report was issued in 2014. Pinning this on the next executive is a pretty wild strategy when they've had so much time to debate this that the cost of the project nearly doubled in cost since they first started planning it. This is "mistake on the lake" era level of incompetence.
October 12, 20222 yr 7 minutes ago, snakebite said: Toxic land haha its a jail. A jail should not be going on prime rail estate. Exactly! It's not luxury housing.
October 25, 20222 yr Good to have Armond off this project: When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
October 25, 20222 yr 13 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said: Good to have Armond off this project: Agreed. But despite the messenger the letter makes several good points about how all of these delays are increasing costs significantly. And I'd be interested in knowing why our length of jail time pre-trial is so much greater than the national average.
November 2, 20222 yr On 9/19/2022 at 12:47 PM, Chazz Michael Michaels said: This may not be able to happen because of rising costs, interest rates, potential recession, etc but a new courthouse tower (even if not a supertall structure) is a tremendous opportunity to transform downtown and the surrounding areas. For example, from San Diego. When/if this happens, I hope it they get it right I had to file some documents at the probate court today....holy cow what a great building! Edited November 2, 20222 yr by surfohio
November 2, 20222 yr 41 minutes ago, surfohio said: I had to file some documents at the probate court today....holy cow what a great building! One of Cleveland’s treasures.
November 2, 20222 yr 1 hour ago, Oldmanladyluck said: One of Cleveland’s treasures. I think he's referring to the San Diego courthouse "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 2, 20222 yr 1 hour ago, Oldmanladyluck said: One of Cleveland’s treasures. Yeah what KJP said....though you're certainly correct!
November 2, 20222 yr On 10/12/2022 at 11:47 AM, surfohio said: This is "mistake on the lake" era level of incompetence. Agreed. Not getting this project done during the decade-plus era of zero interest rates is going to cost us taxpayers dearly for a long time to come when (if?) this project ever gets started. Maybe there's some hindsight at play in my view, but we made a huge mistake in not striking when the iron was hot. Add in inflation for construction materials, and it's even worse.
November 2, 20222 yr 12 hours ago, KJP said: I think he's referring to the San Diego courthouse Yeah I was looking at the post on my phone and the picture didn't pop up in the quote. Nice building!
November 2, 20222 yr I have to imagine these decision are easier in metropolitan areas that have a growing population and tax base BUT the amount of time and money wasted in making these decisions is a negative for those companies/organizations that are currently located here or that would look to locate here. See the latest article by KJP on the new police headquarters. It starts with "planning started 3 years ago" and today we are hearing not that a decision was made but that more studies are required. Cleveland must compete for talent, companies, services etc and indecision/bureaucracy is just one way to ensure that we lose.
November 2, 20222 yr Does there even have to be a true standalone complex? Sublet space somewhere for servers, essential and skeletal staff, and police vehicles, full remote for everyone else and the courts, ankle bracelets for all non-violent offenders, smaller scale structure (perhaps an addition to the Juvi building) for the real dirt bags? Call it modern day bail reform. Edited November 2, 20222 yr by TBideon
April 13, 20232 yr County Jail News. It may not be major but it's a little interesting. https://www.cleveland.com/news/2023/04/cuyahoga-county-planning-key-upgrades-to-existing-jail-while-finalizing-plans-for-new-facility.htmlSent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
April 13, 20232 yr "The county said it will soon be looking for a company to evaluate the courthouse facilities and will work with judges, the county prosecutor’s office, the public defender and the city of Cleveland to weigh options for “maintaining and improving” the facility or relocating to another site downtown". Hasn't this been done a few times already?
April 13, 20232 yr Garfield Heights site on Cuyahoga County’s ‘short list’ for new jail location, sources say Kaitlin Durbin - Apr. 13, 2023 - Cleveland.com "Multiple sources familiar with planning have confirmed to cleveland.com and The Plain Dealer that the site at Granger Road and Transportation Boulevard is among the main contenders being vetted to house a new county jail. It’s not clear how many other sites are on that list. Sources have said there is at least one other property inside Cleveland city limits that is also being seriously discussed. ... The parcels that make up the Garfield Heights site total 72 acres. Officials have indicated they’re interested in carving out at least 40.4 of those acres for the jail, which would move the facility 16 minutes outside of downtown Cleveland."
April 13, 20232 yr That is the site of the Bridgeview Crossing shopping center that never happened. And also the outlet mall that never happened.
April 13, 20232 yr How far along are they in the “latest” study to decide the fate of the Justice Center? My memory was that it was going to be a year/ long study and that’s got to be getting towards a year since we’ve heard anything about it..or am I wrong about this?
April 14, 20232 yr At a CMBA event yesterday Judge Sheehan (the administrative judge for Common Pleas) said they still don't know what they're doing re the justice center and jail and that they haven't made a firm decision about remodeling vs. new location and the judges are waiting on Ronayne's administration to get fully up and running so they can work with him. He specifically mentioned the above Plain Dealer article. He didn't specifically refute it, but he reiterated nothing is decided. Now, Judge Sheehan has every incentive to give vague answers about the status. He is cautious enough by disposition that I would expect him to imply everything is up in the air even if it's 95% decided. So I wouldn't assume any of the above reporting is inaccurate based on his statements. Still thought it was worth mentioning.
June 6, 20232 yr https://www.cleveland.com/news/2023/06/cleveland-city-council-opposing-moving-jail-to-garfield-heights.html
June 6, 20232 yr If they EVER make a decision to build a new Justice Center tower - would locating it next to the Stokes Courthouse be a viable location?
June 6, 20232 yr 11 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said: https://www.cleveland.com/news/2023/06/cleveland-city-council-opposing-moving-jail-to-garfield-heights.html This whole thing was insane. I bet if you plop the JC in one of their wards they'll lose it. "it's our jail" lol no, it belongs to the county.
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