Is the Justice Center able to be repurposed? Or is it truly beyond repair/renovation if/when a new high rise is built?

 

Personally, I think it's an eyesore that I wouldn't mind coming down, but I'm just curious how bad of shape it's in.

1 hour ago, KJP said:

 

 

The Eighth District Court of Appeals is there, too. But they're also proposed to be moved out, if the judges can be convinced. Domestic re ations doesn't want to be there because case parties are mixed and in divorces/custody cases, things can get heated. So they need to be in a newly designed, more secure setting that the new Courthouse will offer. If you move everything out, the only thing that's left is a wedding venue.

 

Fwiw (and slightly off topic), it makes for a great wedding venue - speaking from personal experience 🙂 Plus my husband and I were the first same-sex couple that our judge married 👍 

Back on topic!

I hope the JC can be repurposed.  If for no other reason- from a sorta selfish  standpoint of not losing our 8th tallest building. Especially one on the west side of downtown.  With the SW Tower nearby, the JC won’t stand out as much - big skylines all have their “infill” buildings - not everything is a TT or a Chrysler building, obviously. 
 

I’m sure it would be a mammoth project but what an interesting one it would  be if they were able to somehow convert it.  
 

Of course, if I was to learn that someone was eyeing that sight for a new 400’ building - especially a residential one - I’d change my tune… 

1 hour ago, brownsfan1226 said:

Is the Justice Center able to be repurposed? Or is it truly beyond repair/renovation if/when a new high rise is built?

 

Personally, I think it's an eyesore that I wouldn't mind coming down, but I'm just curious how bad of shape it's in.

Another massive parking lot downtown would look so much better.

2 hours ago, zbaris87 said:

It's 100% going to be a high rise, located somewhere in Downtown

 @zbaris87I know you have to be tight-lipped for now, but how much detail of this project do you know so far? Location, height, architect? Is it something we will all be ecstatic over? 

A whale of a project and I hate not knowing!!!! 😭

1 hour ago, marty15 said:

Another massive parking lot downtown would look so much better.

 Lol.

 

@brownsfan1226the conversation above surmises the building is structurally sound, but needs to be gutted. In other words, it could be repurposed, or renovated for its current use.

6 hours ago, Htsguy said:

That is a good question.  Lots of space for just the Court of Appeals and I guess there is a chance that even the appellate court could move into the new building.  I'll throw this out.  It could be a great location for a small downtown branch of the Cleveland Art Museum-as I understand it, at any one time significant portions of its collection are held back in storage.  However, I would guess it would cost millions and millions to retrofit the building into a museum-probably an expense the museum would not want to incur, not to mention the administrative headaches of having two locations, even if it meant a possible uptick in attendance.

How about a high end hotel. Considering the historic nature of the building, the marble, murals, etc, I would think that only limited modifications could be made to it. Plus it's location to the lake front makes it a valuable commodity. It can't sit there mostly empty and unused.

could the city consolidate any departments and use both buildings on lakeside?

The kinds of square footage numbers that @KJPwas referring to at the higher end, could make this courthouse tower one of the largest ones in the U.S. - of course, the current JC houses correction centers and Cleveland Police HQ. 
 

Just for comparison, the largest single Courthouse Tower in the U.S. is the Eagleton Courthouse in St.Louis, which covers close to a million square feet and is that city’s 3rd highest at 557’ (just short of the tallest building there by about 30 feet) 

 

I don’t think we’d complain about adding a building along these lines…

 

 

Edited June 14, 20232 yr by CleveFan

5 hours ago, CleveFan said:

I hope the JC can be repurposed.  If for no other reason- from a sorta selfish  standpoint of not losing our 8th tallest building.

 

I agree. I know I mentioned this previously but the JC could benefit greatly from a paint job just like Seneca One in Buffalo.

 

It could honestly be a pretty cool residential conversion—give it a fun name like The Verdict

Edited June 14, 20232 yr by sonisharri

40 minutes ago, CleveFan said:

The kinds of square footage numbers that @KJPwas referring to at the higher end, could make this courthouse tower one of the largest ones in the U.S. - of course, the current JC houses correction centers and Cleveland Police HQ. 
 

Just for comparison, the largest single Courthouse Tower in the U.S. is the Eagleton Courthouse in St.Louis, which covers close to a million square feet and is that city’s 3rd highest at 557’ (just short of the tallest building there by about 30 feet) 

 

I don’t think we’d complain about adding a building along these lines…

 

 

 

Wouldn't mind adding another skyscraper, but that one is godawful!  It's like they took a county courthouse and streeeeetched it out to 30 stories tall without considering if it makes any aesthetic sense.  Also, I could do without the setbacks all around.

12 hours ago, marty15 said:

Another massive parking lot downtown would look so much better.

Hahaha, that's fair. And I suppose with the jails around it gone, any retrofitting could spruce up the building's perimeter, plazas, etc. Definitely curious what can be done to it and how extensive of a renovation (both interior and exterior) it could turn out to be!

The plan is to tear down the Justice Center, the building has way too large of an interior footprint to renovate the building into a hotel/apartment. No amount of tax credits could justify the renovation. The mayor has a great vision for the current site of the justice center, and I think you'll all be impressed once you see it

2 minutes ago, zbaris87 said:

The plan is to tear down the Justice Center, the building has way too large of an interior footprint to renovate the building into a hotel/apartment. No amount of tax credits could justify the renovation. The mayor has a great vision for the current site of the justice center, and I think you'll all be impressed once you see it

The May Co. building had too large of floor plates for residential, as well as “The Bell” ;). Creativity goes a long way. 

With May Co, I believe they cut out a section in the middle and created an atrium.  We'll see what they are able to do with "The Bell".

29 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

With May Co, I believe they cut out a section in the middle and created an atrium.  We'll see what they are able to do with "The Bell".

They did. And could be done here. A simple way to “shrink” the floor plates of the JC would be to pull the windows and make those openings large balconies. There’s always a way. With the cost of new construction, there’s no way tearing  down a skyscraper and rebuilding would be more cost effective. Especially since asbestos abatement needs to happen either way. 

58 minutes ago, marty15 said:

They did. And could be done here. A simple way to “shrink” the floor plates of the JC would be to pull the windows and make those openings large balconies. There’s always a way. With the cost of new construction, there’s no way tearing  down a skyscraper and rebuilding would be more cost effective. Especially since asbestos abatement needs to happen either way. 

Right, remember 11 years ago the same County was going to tear down the 29 story Ameritrust Tower at 9th and Euclid. Look at it now.

3 hours ago, zbaris87 said:

The mayor has a great vision for the current site of the justice center, and I think you'll all be impressed once you see it

 

(sorry to derail...) but I just want bike lanes lol 

 

back on topic, thanks for the insight as always.

23 minutes ago, Mov2Ohio said:

Right, remember 11 years ago the same County was going to tear down the 29 story Ameritrust Tower at 9th and Euclid. Look at it now.

100%. I vividly remember. “The ceilings are too low, the floor plates don’t work, etc, etc, etc.”. Same s&!t all over again. 

ameritrust only worked because the new county building was a part of Geis' contract

11 minutes ago, Whipjacka said:

ameritrust only worked because the new county building was a part of Geis' contract

Looks like they are talking about new buildings either way, so make it happen again.

 

The financing for the 9 complex though, was separate from the County HQ.

2 hours ago, marty15 said:

They did. And could be done here. A simple way to “shrink” the floor plates of the JC would be to pull the windows and make those openings large balconies. There’s always a way. With the cost of new construction, there’s no way tearing  down a skyscraper and rebuilding would be more cost effective. Especially since asbestos abatement needs to happen either way. 

 

Not an architect, but that makes a lot more sense than hollowing the building out. I'm imagining the hollowed center of the building being like Ponte City in Johnannesburg.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponte_City

 

 

3 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said:

With May Co, I believe they cut out a section in the middle and created an atrium.  We'll see what they are able to do with "The Bell".

I'm currently working on the Bell, and we didn't cut a hole in the center 

4 minutes ago, jawn said:

 

Not an architect, but that makes a lot more sense than hollowing the building out. I'm imagining the hollowed center of the building being like Ponte City in Johnannesburg.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponte_City

 

 

You could even go further than hollowing out. Completely carve out the midsection to the outside of the building. Essentially creating a U shaped building, just leaving the steel structure exposed. 

17 minutes ago, zbaris87 said:

I'm currently working on the Bell, and we didn't cut a hole in the center 

I know. Not saying you did. But there were many comments here saying the floor plates of that building wouldn’t work for a residential conversion. Your team got creative. This city is way too quick to tear everything down. The scars are everywhere still. 

 

Not sure what the great vision will be, but with all the already prime, vacant, public lands sitting around already, I’m not optimistic. 

39 minutes ago, Mov2Ohio said:

Looks like they are talking about new buildings either way, so make it happen again.

 

The financing for the 9 complex though, was separate from the County HQ.

 

maybe you're right, but I thought I remembered the garage, HQ, rotunda, 9, and the building on Euclid being a part of the same deal. it also sat empty for over a decade before people 'got creative'

 

also thought asbestos was the big issue with that conversion

Edited June 14, 20232 yr by Whipjacka

31 minutes ago, zbaris87 said:

I'm currently working on the Bell, and we didn't cut a hole in the center 

We will find out if the Bell is successful once it is finished and if it rents out and stays rented.

Any idea of when it is expected to be completed? And do you think it will be successful?

Let’s play parking lot whack-a-mole. 

 

Sherwin-Williams replaces the decades old super block parking lots, which were created by tearing down half the Warehouse District, for parking for the Justice Center. 

 

Once SHW is completed, we tear down the JC to create a new super block of parking. 

 

No disrespect @zbaris87, but “visions” by our local government are just dreams. See Lakefront masterplans/visions. 

 

 

1 hour ago, jawn said:

 

Not an architect, but that makes a lot more sense than hollowing the building out. I'm imagining the hollowed center of the building being like Ponte City in Johnannesburg.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponte_City

 

 

OT, but I was in Jo’burg on a business trip in 1999 and was given a very quick tour around that building by one of our sales managers, who was ex-SA military and promised me we’d be safe.
It was terrifying. 

14 hours ago, X said:

 

Wouldn't mind adding another skyscraper, but that one is godawful!  It's like they took a county courthouse and streeeeetched it out to 30 stories tall without considering if it makes any aesthetic sense.  Also, I could do without the setbacks all around.

I could be wrong but I think setbacks, bollards and other safety measures are a requirement of any modern day courthouse due to the Oklahoma City bombing.

43 minutes ago, marty15 said:

Let’s play parking lot whack-a-mole. 

 

Sherwin-Williams replaces the decades old super block parking lots, which were created by tearing down half the Warehouse District, for parking for the Justice Center. 

 

Once SHW is completed, we tear down the JC to create a new super block of parking. 

Buildings are no longer torn down without a development plan for the site.  Of course we are still waiting for development at the NY Spaghetti House site.

Executive Ronayne proposes extending Cuyahoga County sales tax to pay for new jail, without voter approval
Cuyahoga County Executive Chris Ronayne is proposing extending the quarter-percent sales tax another 40 years to help pay for a new jail and other construction needs. The ordinance requires county council's approval.

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2023/06/executive-ronayne-proposes-extending-cuyahoga-county-sales-tax-to-pay-for-new-jail-without-voter-approval.html

14 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Buildings are no longer torn down without a development plan for the site.  Of course we are still waiting for development at the NY Spaghetti House site.

Yeah, that’s an unenforceable ordinance. We’ll be staring at a “temporary” parking lot for no less than a decade.

 

The only positive about this snail paced process is that it’ll be another decade before the current JC is vacated. Who knows who will be mayor by then.

7 hours ago, zbaris87 said:

The plan is to tear down the Justice Center, the building has way too large of an interior footprint to renovate the building into a hotel/apartment. No amount of tax credits could justify the renovation. The mayor has a great vision for the current site of the justice center, and I think you'll all be impressed once you see it

Doesn't the county own the land and the justice center? Is the county and the city doing a land swap for the new justice tower?

I’d be extremely concerned about tearing the Justice Center because of a new “vision”.  Visions are wonderful and I’m not criticizing the new mayor and leadership if they have one (I appreciate the new energy in the mayor’s office (from what I understand) 

 

But visions require a lot of “things” to go right in terms of money.  And the last thing we need is another Jacob’s lot scenario which turned into a 30 year parking lot. 
 

As for the actual conversion challenges of the JC - I’m sure they are formidable - but those high ceilings could be an extremely appealing inducement for residential - and big balconies would only add to the appeal- especially with the amazing views that location provides.  
 

Now if the new vision is a ready- to-go 40 story residential tower, I can change my mind…

Edited June 14, 20232 yr by CleveFan

3 hours ago, Whipjacka said:

 

maybe you're right, but I thought I remembered the garage, HQ, rotunda, 9, and the building on Euclid being a part of the same deal. it also sat empty for over a decade before people 'got creative'

 

also thought asbestos was the big issue with that conversion

It was part of the conversation when the counry was going to renovate, but the county removed all the asbestos before they put it out to bid, so it would be more attractive to whatever developer bought the complex.

Legislation for purchase of land for Cuyahoga County Jail. https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cuyahoga-county/cuyahoga-county-executive-chris-ronayne-introduces-legislation-38-million-land-purchase-new-jail-garfield-heights/95-099e72ba-17a7-484f-a5a8-9bb640b48ddc

It's getting ugly.

Cuyahoga executive, council spar over proposed Garfield Heights jail site

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2023/07/cuyahoga-executive-council-spar-over-proposed-garfield-heights-site.html

I watched the regular meeting and Simon seems to be pushing back hard against Chris making an "Executive Decision" on the site, she went out of her way to get a soundbite at the end of the meeting. Seems like council really wants it in Cleveland, even if it means spending extra money cleaning up a toxic site. On one hand council is balking at a purchase price of ~$40M for a greenfield site, yet aren't balking at environmental remediation and the image they'll have building it on a toxic site (Eddy Rd/Kirby and/or Transport Rd.). No wonder they need to hire a PR firm for council. The more they drag their feet the more the price goes up - started at $550M, then $750M and now it's up to around $800M lol

 

 

Quote

 

“It’s not a matter of we can’t clean it up,” Simon said. “I’m hearing that it’s going to be challenging and might be more costly, but that doesn’t mean that it can’t be an effective place.” (speaking of the Eddy Road and Kirby Avenue site)

 

“Yeah, 60 to 100 million dollars more challenging,” [Public Works Director Mike] Dever said of the cleanup.

 

Some council members also showed interest in reviving plans to build the jail on Transport Road, a site the community previously rejected because of methane and carcinogens in the soil. The county’s real estate agent said he doesn’t know if the current owner of the property will negotiate a second time.

 

Later, during council’s regular meeting, Ronayne called it a “fool’s errand” to continue vetting other options.

 

“We need to move on something that’s long past due,” he urged. “It’s a matter of getting on the same page.”

 

 

Edited July 7, 20231 yr by GISguy

Just clean up the site and put it in Cleveland where it belongs.  Those sites will have to be cleaned up eventually.  Let's do it now.

 

Edited July 7, 20231 yr by LibertyBlvd

The Garfield Hts site makes much more sense for so many reasons.  And its not like it is in Strongsville or Solon.  It is like a 5-7 minute drive to the Cleveland border.

I agree the 480 site makes a lot of sense. On a long enough timeline I'd love to see the city start reclaiming industrial valley and adjacent land for residential and light commercial use. But i get that is a pipe dream. 

Edited July 7, 20231 yr by Mendo

50 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Just clean up the site and put it in Cleveland where it belongs. 

 

Curious, not trying to be a jerk or anything, but why does the county jail belong in Cleveland? 

 

Some drive times to/from sites:

 

Garfield Site to JC - 17min/12.5mi

Garfield Site to Metro - 12min

Downtown to Garfield (Bussing) - 35min

 

Kirby Ave. to JC - 10min/7mi

Kirby Ave. to Metro - 14min

Downtown to Kirby Ave. - 46min

2 hours ago, GISguy said:

 

Curious, not trying to be a jerk or anything, but why does the county jail belong in Cleveland? 

Well, maybe belongs was a poor choice of words.  I meant I would rather it be in Cleveland.  Transport Rd site would be my choice. Yeah, I know the site needs to be cleaned up, but it will need to be cleaned up eventually, or do we just let it remain undeveloped forever?  And there is already a correctional facility in the area (Northeast Reintegration Center).  And it is closest to the justice center.  And Cleveland is the county seat. And I hate seeing jobs leaving Cleveland for the suburbs.

 

Edited July 7, 20231 yr by LibertyBlvd

1 hour ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Well, maybe belongs was a poor choice of words.  I meant I would rather it be in Cleveland.  Transport Rd site would be my choice. Yeah, I know the site needs to be cleaned up, but it will need to be cleaned up eventually, or do we just let it remain undeveloped forever?  And there is already a correctional facility in the area (Northeast Reintegration Center).  And it is closest to the justice center.  And Cleveland is the county seat. And I hate seeing jobs leaving Cleveland for the suburbs.

 

 

Appreciate the clarification. After listening to the No New Jail Coalition, they really don't have a great argument. I think council could go through with the Transport Rd. site and many people in the county wouldn't even realize it. That said, the Exec is imagining more of a campus and had mentioned things like a farm/garden and things of that sort. Not sure I'd want to eat any greens from the Industrial Valley. Also, it seems like if they go back to the Transport site it's going to cost them a ton of money on top of previous numbers.

 

I'm kind of surprised there hasn't been pushback to the Kirby Ave. site (yes, separated by 90, but still..) from Bratenahl folk. Also on the western side of Eddy there's some really nice, unique, housing stock. If they were to choose the Kirby site selfish me needs to get pics in there before the county goes in and remediates it lol.

 

(Actually, ya know what, I'm going to get some pics of the site to share here so y'all can see what the county is dealing with...)

Edited July 7, 20231 yr by GISguy

Here's a brutalist building with large floor plates renovated to residential. As some have suggested for the Justice Center, they pulled some of the exterior apartment walls inside the facade and used that space for exterior balconies.

 

 

^Nice. I’d hate to lose the JC off the skyline. 

@KJPor @zbaris87(or whoever knows) - when are we going to hear the city’s decision on replacement vs. rehab  of the Justice Center? And some details about what they’re moving towards..,

I can get a clear answer in about 10 days on when the announcement is coming. stay tuned 

5 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

Here's a brutalist building with large floor plates renovated to residential. As some have suggested for the Justice Center, they pulled some of the exterior apartment walls inside the facade and used that space for exterior balconies.

 

 

We desperately need to shed the demo first mentality here. It blinds from doing cool s**t.