1 hour ago, marty15 said:

We desperately need to shed the demo first mentality here. It blinds from doing cool s**t. 

Geez Louise. The Baton Rouge office building exterior after conversion looks awful in this picture. Perhaps, its the photo, but the original exterior had some lightness to it that is all but gone. IMO. 

19 minutes ago, DO_Summers said:

Geez Louise. The Baton Rouge office building exterior after conversion looks awful in this picture. Perhaps, its the photo, but the original exterior had some lightness to it that is all but gone. IMO. 

It beats looking like a parking lot. 

Since this is the county is there any chance of a public-private partnership on this?   Give the building to a private developer for $1 instead of paying for demolition?   Country retains the land?   Something creative like the new HQ worked out?  

18 hours ago, CleveFan said:

@KJPor @zbaris87(or whoever knows) - when are we going to hear the city’s decision on replacement vs. rehab  of the Justice Center? And some details about what they’re moving towards..,

 

And it's the county that's in the driver's seat on the courthouse, albeit with input from the city. The county is issuing the RFP, but hasn't been issued yet. It was supposed to be issued in the spring, but it was intended to accept RFPs for either building a new courthouse or rebuilding the existing one. I get the sense the delay was on building a consensus from the Justice Center Steering Committee members on whether to accept RFPs for both new/rebuild or just one -- new. If I were a betting man, I'd bet new courthouse tower. To me, the biggest question is: will the court of appeals and probate court also be part of the new courthouse tower? If so, the courthouse will add another 200,000 square feet or so to the 877,000-square-foot basic scale.

 

While I want the new courthouse to be a skyscraper, it doesn't have to be. Past comments by the steering committee show that they prefer to save money by keeping the courthouse in the 15- to 20-story range (atop a 4-5 level parking pedestal for about 1,000 cars). Floorplates in the 65,000-75,000-square-foot range would allow that, but you could divide that into two towers atop an atrium shared below both buildings. I think the Bedrock riverfront site makes a lot of sense for the new courthouse, to create a sort-of "Courthouse Square" with the Stokes Tower. If so, a two-tower courthouse atop a parking-atrium footprint of 100,000 square feet would easily fit between Stokes and the proposed public space stepping down to the river's edge without crowding Stokes.

 

Something like this.... (first, the city-approved masterplan)

 

 

Then the courthouse tower concept. Two 15-story towers with 35,000 SF floorplates atop a 100,000 SF atrium-over-parking garage for 1,200 cars (four level garage)...

 

It beats looking like a parking lot. 

After walking that entire block a week ago that would be such an eyesore of a parking lot. It’s such a huge block. Renovations or a redevelopment that has financing in place are the only options lol. We can’t make progress with erasing so many WHD parking lots just to put another CRATER in the same area for god knows how long.


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14 hours ago, marty15 said:

It beats looking like a parking lot. 

No doubt! Just commenting on the aesthetics of this specific office tower post conversion.  

Well Ken what you say makes sense from a number of standpoints. Building new in that location allows for great RTA connections. It helps kickstart the Bedrock river development. And finally but not least, two midrise structures saves on the cost. 

 

The only problem l have with those reasons is l want one highrise. Stupidly, I want the skyline to grow. So on one hand we have what appears to be a decision based on finance and logic and another based on emotion.

 

Probably a good reason l'm not in charge of anything.

3 hours ago, cadmen said:

Well Ken what you say makes sense from a number of standpoints. Building new in that location allows for great RTA connections. It helps kickstart the Bedrock river development. And finally but not least, two midrise structures saves on the cost. 

 

The only problem l have with those reasons is l want one highrise. Stupidly, I want the skyline to grow. So on one hand we have what appears to be a decision based on finance and logic and another based on emotion.

 

Probably a good reason l'm not in charge of anything.

We call that emotion, civic pride @cadmen

I'll hold back on going too deep into the urbex/ruin porn wormhole on this one, but after exploring the Kirby/Eddy/Coit site it would make probably more sense to put it over there vs Garfield - it's all industrial, mostly abandoned warehouses but hoooooboy it'll take a LOT of cleanup. They've been using the former warehouse portion as a covered dump and yeah, obviously between lead, asbestos, and remnants of former manufacturing it'll be a heavy lift. It's also pretty funny that when a site is looked at closely the building owners start actually caring about it (a little). In this case all obvious entrances to the old National Acme Co. are boarded up (they were previously wiiiiide open) other buildings in this block also have more activity than I've previously seen on jaunts over there.

 

 

 

National Acme Property:

 

 

This is all garbage: 

 

 

Woodblock floors:

 

Former bigwig/corner office: 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 10, 20231 yr by GISguy

Wow. And thanks for the bike appearance amid the post-apocalyptic ruins!

 

1 hour ago, GISguy said:

I'll hold back on going too deep into the urbex/ruin porn wormhole on this one, but after exploring the Kirby/Eddy/Coit site it would make probably more sense to put it over there vs Garfield - it's all industrial, mostly abandoned warehouses but hoooooboy it'll take a LOT of cleanup. They've been using the former warehouse portion as a covered dump and yeah, obviously between lead, asbestos, and remnants of former manufacturing it'll be a heavy lift. It's also pretty funny that when a site is looked at closely the building owners start actually caring about it (a little). In this case all obvious entrances to the old National Acme Co. are boarded up (they were previously wiiiiide open) other buildings in this block also have more activity than I've previously seen on jaunts over there.

 

 

 

National Acme Property:

 

 

This is all garbage: 

 

 

Woodblock floors:

 

Former bigwig/corner office: 

 

 

 

 

I remember a conversation with Mike Polensek where he stated the site would cost $5 million to clean.  Where he got the number, I didn't ask- and this was four years ago.

2 minutes ago, KJP said:

Wow. And thanks for the bike appearance amid the post-apocalyptic ruins!

 

I think my bike will eventually sue me for contracting mesothelioma lol

 

2 minutes ago, Oldmanladyluck said:

 

I remember a conversation with Mike Polensek where he stated the site would cost $5 million to clean.  Where he got the number, I didn't ask- and this was four years ago.

 

Interesting - I know the potential jail site will include additional parcels but county PW saying it's a $60-100M is slightly off lol

This is why I feel the jail should be built in Cleveland.  Let's be honest, there will never be any upscale developments built at either of the Cleveland sites being considered.  Whereas the Garfield site is clean land and has the potential for something nicer than a jail.

 

Edited July 10, 20231 yr by LibertyBlvd

1 hour ago, GISguy said:

 

 

@GISguy

 If you substitute a curled up nude for the bike, you could make a lot of money as a fine art photographer!  

 

We have at least a dozen Acme machines here and other machine shops I am familiar with have similar.    They built about 60,000 of them, and I'd bet most are still active.   We had a major fire in 2014 over the bay where ours were, and probably 90% of them made parts again.    As far as manufacturing goes, that site has major historical significance.

 

$5 million sounds about right.

Edited July 10, 20231 yr by E Rocc

48 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

This is why I feel the jail should be built in Cleveland.  Let's be honest, there will never be any upscale developments built at either of the Cleveland sites being considered.  Whereas the Garfield site is clean land and has the potential for something nicer than a jail.

 

 

I wouldn't be too sure; this section of Glenville was strong for a very long time.  Even in the 90s- Eddy Road was a beautiful street from I-90 up through where it turns into East Cleveland.  But just like many other neighborhoods in the city, you had residential streets which were mainly homeowner occupied sitting directly next to streets which were mainly tenant occupied- oftentimes owned by absentee landlords who didn't care about the direction of the neighborhood to begin with.

 

To give the site a chance, it would have to be cleaned, cleared and then rezoned for anything residential and/or mixed-use.  Alternatively, cleaned and cleared for some new industrial use which would bring jobs back to the neighborhood.  Part of the reason for the neighborhood's long decline is tied directly to the thousands of jobs lost at the Coit Road GM plant and Acme, along with the crack epidemic taking off locally in 1986-1987 and the spike in crime associated with it.  St. Clair was still solid as far as neighborhood retail was concerned in the late 90s and the neighborhood had the income (and density) to support the businesses within the redevelopment of E. 105th/St. Clair in the early 90s.  

 

Could mixed-use work at the site, or something other than what is there currently?  It worked for Battery Park, which besides having the beach at its doorstep also (now) has access to the Shoreway via W. 73rd.  This site already has direct Shoreway access. 

 

I'm not pitching for it to be redeveloped as a mixed-use residential project (especially when St. Clair Ave. as a commercial corridor needs all the help it could get right now), but I am saying to never say never.       

Worth listening in the background, up down vote on the site is going to be 8/1: 

 

 

Edited July 24, 20231 yr by GISguy

On 7/7/2023 at 5:24 PM, CleveFan said:

@KJPor @zbaris87(or whoever knows) - when are we going to hear the city’s decision on replacement vs. rehab  of the Justice Center? And some details about what they’re moving towards..,

 

On 7/7/2023 at 10:01 PM, zbaris87 said:

I can get a clear answer in about 10 days on when the announcement is coming. stay tuned 

Any “bombs”  “nuggets” or even “tidbits”coming  @zbaris87? 

County is issuing RFP for the courthouse tomorrow (new site or redevelopment of the current site), they said it was going to be around the 800,000 sq ft range. It will be out for 2 month.

Edited July 24, 20231 yr by nokoeeee

59 minutes ago, nokoeeee said:

County is issuing RFP for the courthouse tomorrow (new site or redevelopment of the current site), they said it was going to be around the 800,000 sq ft range. It will be out for 2 month.

I like how they spent a year+ looking at whether to keep the courthouse and redo it or whether to build on a new site and they still ended up sending out a RFP which covers both possibilities.

 

And, to be clear, that's not sarcastic. After all this time and no firm conclusion, the rational thing to do is throw up the hands and say "we don't know what the best approach is; let's see what developers are willing to try." I think it shows open-mindedness and humility.

This RFP doesn't seem to jive with suggestions on the board that a site has already been selected, unless this is just a legal technicality/ cover your butt kind of process.

wow that board is dysfunctional. 

Edited July 24, 20231 yr by Whipjacka

On 7/10/2023 at 10:53 AM, GISguy said:

 

I think my bike will eventually sue me for contracting mesothelioma lol

 

 

Interesting - I know the potential jail site will include additional parcels but county PW saying it's a $60-100M is slightly off lol

Not that we don’t appreciate the photos, but my legal counsel recommends that I add - the Admins and owners of the forum do not condone or endorse any activity such as trespassing (even if it results in interesting images) 🙂

If I had to guess,  my guess is that the Justice Center will be part of the Bedrock complex next to the Federal Courthouse. Based on the info i've heard, that's my best guess

2 hours ago, Whipjacka said:

wow that board is dysfunctional. 

We just need to get a forum member or two on it!  I guarantee that 800,000 sq foot Justice center replacement  would be one tall tower. 

Does anyone know what the square footage is for just the existing Justice Center Tower is?

 

If I had to guess,  my guess is that the Justice Center will be part of the Bedrock complex next to the Federal Courthouse. Based on the info i've heard, that's my best guess

That’s pretty surprising Gilbert would welcome this into his plan. But you are far more tuned in than I am


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1 hour ago, dave2017 said:

Does anyone know what the square footage is for just the existing Justice Center Tower is?

 

 

It's just under 600k. See the next article......

 

County issues RFP on 800K SF courthouse
By Ken Prendergast / July 24, 2023

 

Two months from tomorrow, Cuyahoga County officials hope to get some ideas and cost estimates from private-sector development groups on whether to rebuild and expand the existing, 47-year-old courthouse tower at the Justice Center or build a new one. A new courthouse, which could be built next to the existing tower at 1200 Ontario St. or somewhere else downtown, was recommended four years ago as the least expensive option for providing expanded court facilities over the long term by the Justice Center Steering Committee.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/07/24/county-issues-rfp-on-800k-sf-courthouse/

I'm hoping for a site west of Ontario.  Tho CSU just issued an RFQ for a new arena

I'm expecting a major developer to submit something that looks like what Geis did with the administration building/Ameritrust HQ tower/property. Maybe make the entire Justice Center block available for sale as part of the courthouse project, even if the courthouse isn't built on that site.

Site 2 is probably the best option IMO.  Site 1 is probably the next best option, but it would require waiting until a new jail is built. As for site 3, I would prefer seeing low-rise retail and residential buildings built there as envisioned by the Weston plan of a few years ago.  Site 4 is questionable - it seems like we would need to know what the plans are for the shoreway before developing anything there. Sites 5, 6 and 7 are too far from CBD.  Also, site 5 would require waiting until a new CSU arena is built.

 

Edited July 26, 20231 yr by LibertyBlvd

It seems like they are looking at mid-rise building(s) to replace the Justice Center. But for kicks, with the floor plate size of the current Justice Center, it would require 34 floors to provide 800,000 square feet of space. Using the average floor height of 17' of the current building, a new 34-floor Justice Center would top out around 569 feet. Wouldn't it be nice to have another 500+ foot tower?

  Does anyone think there would be a chance, if built new, it could go right next to new SW headquarters?  I remember there was talk of a second tower, maybe this could be it.  If this were the case, would SW have any say so at all as to the design since they seem to be so protective of personal space.

I believe SW is holding that parcel for its own expected expansion or related development  - hopefully sooner than later 

Edited July 26, 20231 yr by CleveFan

3 minutes ago, cfdwarrior said:

  Does anyone think there would be a chance, if built new, it could go right next to new SW headquarters?  I remember there was talk of a second tower, maybe this could be it.  If this were the case, would SW have any say so at all as to the design since they seem to be so protective of personal space.

 

If you mean the staging area just to the west of the under-construction SW tower, no ... that land is also owned by SW and is the site of a future 2nd SW tower. That one will likely be much shorter, and no one knows if it'll happen in 3, 5, or 20 years. 😀

https://allevents.in/garfield heights/august-19th-garfield-heights-special-community-meeting-on-the-proposed-$750-million-new-jail/200025151633514

 

For sale: The Justice Center
By Ken Prendergast / August 18, 2023

 

All five above-ground buildings in downtown’s Justice Center complex, plus a below-ground parking garage, are being offered for sale by Cuyahoga County as a result of other efforts that could partially or completely vacate the entire 2-million-square-foot facility. The sale includes a three-year leaseback with four additional one-year renewal options so the county and city of Cleveland will have time to carry out those vacating efforts. No sale price was listed for the property but if you have to ask, you probably can’t afford it anyway.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/08/18/for-sale-the-justice-center/

My bet is we end up with a new courthouse tower along the Tower City Riverfront.

1 hour ago, KJP said:

For sale: The Justice Center
By Ken Prendergast / August 18, 2023

but if you have to ask, you probably can’t afford it anyway.

 

 

Ken,  I would pay a few hundred bucks to take a few sledge hammer swings when they finally decide to demolish it - a la the old county fair junk car fund raiser events.  

9 minutes ago, ryanfrazier said:

My bet is we end up with a new courthouse tower along the Tower City Riverfront.

I also think the best location for a new courthouse tower would be on the site of the existing jails, but the county's dithering over a new jail location makes that nearly impossible.  I don't see a private developer taking on the obligation of building on the site of the existing jails while there's uncertainty about when the premises will be vacated for construction to start.  Especially in an era of high interest rates, which make delay very expensive.

lol they could expand the convention center

3 minutes ago, Whipjacka said:

lol they could expand the convention center

Or re-use an existing structure -- the Medical Mart.

So, an investor gets to pay to have the privilege of tying up their money for 4-6 years and then get the privilege of paying millions of dollars to demolish buildings that are full of asbestos?  I think I will hold on to my 5% return on T-bills.

^ Yeah l'm thinking the list of potential buyers is gonna be a short one.

We can say what we want about the quality and/or architecture of the justice center. But it was a very efficient and smart move to have all of those facilities next to one another.

22 minutes ago, Clefan14 said:

We can say what we want about the quality and/or architecture of the justice center. But it was a very efficient and smart move to have all of those facilities next to one another.

LOL, u just called a structure that (former City of Cleveland tower at least) has no light switches. 24/7 electricity use.

It needn't be as ugly as it currently is.

It also doesn't have to be as ugly as what they came up with here, in Sydney Australia, but wow, if this could happen in Clevo too...

 

Our old Justice Center tower could be up-cycled into something completely chic. 

I have my doubts, but Cleveland never stops surprising me. We can always leave room for something to go surprisingly right. 

 

Disclaimer - probably many dollar signs needed for something like this to happen.

Article above sourced from CNN's "Life, but Greener" news feed.

 

1 hour ago, ExPatClevGuy said:

It needn't be as ugly as it currently is.

It also doesn't have to be as ugly as what they came up with here, in Sydney Australia, but wow, if this could happen in Clevo too...

 

Our old Justice Center tower could be up-cycled into something completely chic. 

I have my doubts, but Cleveland never stops surprising me. We can always leave room for something to go surprisingly right. 

 

Disclaimer - probably many dollar signs needed for something like this to happen.

Article above sourced from CNN's "Life, but Greener" news feed.

 

 

 

wow the sydney redo is beautiful and swank.

 

however, a cheapskate version is possible too.

 

for nyc that would be 375 pearl st aka the verizon long lines building near the brooklyn bridge.

 

it was once deemed the ugliest building in the world, but it was finally redeveloped in 2016 — so now its just normal ugly. 😂

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/375_Pearl_Street

also, for more comparison —

 

they are in the middle of tearing down the downtown nyc jail aka the tombs. an rfp is out for design/build on the same site.

 

there is some “it’s too tawl!!” whining if you can believe it, including a brief pause, but mostly i guess the process was slowed and stuck since covid — and it sure ain’t cheap:

 

 

— The site is to include 886 beds with a maximum building height of 295 feet

The demolition budget for our site is $125 million

 

— The budget for the Manhattan site construction overall is $2.13 billion.

Demolition will continue for the next year

 

— Construction on the new building should finish by 2027

 

— The 800+ detainees that were at the two buildings have been cleared out and moved to Rikers

 

 

more:

https://tribecacitizen.com/2023/05/02/the-latest-on-demolition-work-for-the-jail/

 

https://www.thecity.nyc/2023/4/26/23699969/pause-demolition-manhattan-detention-center

 

 

 

i took these pics in june —