I'd prefer two mid-rise buildings around the size of the Anthony J. Celebreeze building, which at 32 stories measures at 577,000 square feet. So double that and you'd get square footage around 1.2 million. I feel like if one building is slightly shorter at 28 stories you can include a building at 4-5 stories that matches the WHD that can house a building with a cafe or something.

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Damn, I thought I'd have the scoop on this again....

 

 

County Courthouse project gets seven proposals
By Ken Prendergast / October 31, 2023

 

While the specific proposals for a new or renovated Cuyahoga County courthouse haven’t been publicly released yet by the county, a list of who submitted the proposals was provided to NEOtrans as a result of a public records request. And the list of seven respondents provides some insight as to who has presented what for the county’s nearly 900,000-square-foot courthouse facility that could cost $400 million to $700 million to build or renovate.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/10/31/county-courthouse-project-gets-seven-proposals/

1 hour ago, Ethan said:

I like this proposal. No skyscraper, but it looks like decent density, and I like the classically styled buildings. This is the only proposal in the article with a picture.

 

 

From the article, "They’re proposing to demolish the entire Justice Center complex and replace it with eight lower-slung buildings, each of them evoking or replicating a historic structure that once stood in downtown Cleveland. The buildings could include ground-floor retail and restaurants."

 

Further described as "Campus-like" and compromising 1.2 million Sq ft. Of new construction. I like it. I'd prefer all of these beautiful buildings over one shiny glass skyscraper. 

 

I like this proposal too, but as someone that has worked in the justice center previously, I would expect pushback on the campus like structure. Personally, I think it could work (and add more life to the street activity) but I expect those with influence would prefer, at the least, connected buildings.  Although I don't know if the article addresses how this proposal divides the functions (I do not have access to Crain's anymore (my library card needs updating).)

So it appears our hopes of a tower rely on out of state firms, as all the local firms are apparently acolytes of Michelle Anderson. 

1 hour ago, KJP said:

Damn, I thought I'd have the scoop on this again....

 

 

County Courthouse project gets seven proposals
By Ken Prendergast / October 31, 2023

 

While the specific proposals for a new or renovated Cuyahoga County courthouse haven’t been publicly released yet by the county, a list of who submitted the proposals was provided to NEOtrans as a result of a public records request. And the list of seven respondents provides some insight as to who has presented what for the county’s nearly 900,000-square-foot courthouse facility that could cost $400 million to $700 million to build or renovate.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/10/31/county-courthouse-project-gets-seven-proposals/

This proposal is only good if the activate the ground levels on majority if not all of the proposed buildings. If not you're looking at a massive dead zone for decades to come once again.

The historic campus is an intersting concept but seems like a poor use of land for the central business dictrict. Not to mention that I don't have much confidence in pulling off the architectual details on these buildings. 

50 minutes ago, Rustbelter said:

Not to mention that I don't have much confidence in pulling off the architectual details on these buildings. 

I love the concept, but that is the huge caveat. 

3 hours ago, CleveFan said:

It would be beautiful  in Berea or even midtown - not next to SW!!   super disappointed if they’re really thinking of tearing down the Justice Center-  which for all the hate it gets - is an impressive big city brutalist tower - for this small town vibe in the center of the downtown core. So tired of odes to the past architecturally - Smh. 

 

Respectfully, I disagree. 

 

I get your point, and I'm not sure I'm honestly a fan of the new design... but the most densely populated "nice" cities I've been to (Boston, Charleston, Copenhagen, Milan) are FILLED with buildings less than 8 stories. The density lends itself to a big city vibe. The Baldwin Wallace campus, placed on 6 acres downtown, would feel entirely different than it does in Berea. 

I know the campus plan is just a conceptual massing but it kind of reminds me of the Inns of Court in London.  That is pretty 'big city" in my mind and very charming.

2 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said:

This proposal is only good if the activate the ground levels on majority if not all of the proposed buildings. If not you're looking at a massive dead zone for decades to come once again.

 

It's unlikely a skyscraper plan for this site would be any better if density and street life is a concern. Smaller buildings would give more opportunity for street level interaction.

 

In the past I'd expect a high rise if for no other reason than politicians wanting to make a big splash. But the county admin building on 9th is pretty discreet and the current administration seems just as conservative.

I suppose the campus proposal is intended to blend in with the existing warehouse district buildings, which would be nice.  However, I wonder if it could be done without demolishing the justice center tower? Yeah, it's not the prettiest building downtown, but maybe it could be re-clad with a less brutal facade and re-purposed for law offices.

 

Edited November 1, 20231 yr by LibertyBlvd

17 hours ago, Ethan said:

Alternatively, Paris... Most European cities are filled with 4-8 story buildings and are still very dense. 

 

It's also right next to the warehouse district which is full of 4-6 story buildings. It looks like the shortest proposed buildings here are about 5 stories, and the tallest is about 13-14. (It's hard to tell from the picture, and I think it's more of a vision than a proposal). I can understand preferring a skyscraper, but let's not get too melodramatic. 

I'm no expert in this area, but I wonder how many 4-8 story buildings were built in European cities CBD in recent years. I expect most of them have been there for a century. They tend not to tear down old buildings like we do here in the U.S.

 

As far as the warehouse district goes, I would expect over time that taller, more modern buildings would pop up in that area. Aren't there enough low rise buildings downtown with the building around the mall, the warehouse district, and scattered elsewhere?

 

I am no expert. I may not have a good eye for art. I happen to like skyscrapers. I just think it is a lost opportunity if we don't get at least a couple mid-rise buildings out of this. 

15 minutes ago, TMart said:

I'm no expert in this area, but I wonder how many 4-8 story buildings were built in European cities CBD in recent years. I expect most of them have been there for a century. They tend not to tear down old buildings like we do here in the U.S.

 

As far as the warehouse district goes, I would expect over time that taller, more modern buildings would pop up in that area. Aren't there enough low rise buildings downtown with the building around the mall, the warehouse district, and scattered elsewhere?

 

I am no expert. I may not have a good eye for art. I happen to like skyscrapers. I just think it is a lost opportunity if we don't get at least a couple mid-rise buildings out of this. 

 

Dublin's CBD - if you do a 360 on these pics, you'll see mainly new (under 15 years) buildings less than 10 stories. 

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3481284,-6.2485104,3a,54.4y,242.92h,95.78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s55aeP0G-I1Fr2FIjNxYvKw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3496123,-6.2513427,3a,75y,148.77h,100.99t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sRDBTWylJzVhkHkQ3yEGgsw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DRDBTWylJzVhkHkQ3yEGgsw%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D99.67675%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3495684,-6.2480147,3a,75y,98.01h,93.25t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s3utum95jWPSMu-iI_MemwQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D3utum95jWPSMu-iI_MemwQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D112.91%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3474333,-6.237978,3a,75y,246.46h,92.49t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sUfFNkfYGZpP3UxcxXY18Kw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DUfFNkfYGZpP3UxcxXY18Kw%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D73.09707%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

14 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

Dublin's CBD - if you do a 360 on these pics, you'll see mainly new (under 15 years) buildings less than 10 stories. 

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3481284,-6.2485104,3a,54.4y,242.92h,95.78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s55aeP0G-I1Fr2FIjNxYvKw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3496123,-6.2513427,3a,75y,148.77h,100.99t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sRDBTWylJzVhkHkQ3yEGgsw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DRDBTWylJzVhkHkQ3yEGgsw%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D99.67675%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3495684,-6.2480147,3a,75y,98.01h,93.25t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s3utum95jWPSMu-iI_MemwQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D3utum95jWPSMu-iI_MemwQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D112.91%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3474333,-6.237978,3a,75y,246.46h,92.49t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sUfFNkfYGZpP3UxcxXY18Kw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DUfFNkfYGZpP3UxcxXY18Kw%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D73.09707%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

While those were some decent looking buildings, it just looks very suburban to me. I do like the streetcar tracks. Would love to see those down Euclid...

26 minutes ago, TMart said:

While those were some decent looking buildings, it just looks very suburban to me. I do like the streetcar tracks. Would love to see those down Euclid...

I was just in Dublin. There's no less than 40 cranes in that city. Most of the buildings getting built are in that range except the apartment buildings next to the Guinness plant are even taller. 

Just throwing this out there...while l'm very excited to get a new high rise courthouse tower or even a busy campus facility, the Centennial re-boot has me thinking. 

 

When Millennium's plan for that building was first broached l was pumped to see this VERY important building and location coming back to life. But pulling that off will be incredibly difficult and finding a way to make that amazing lobby work may not be possible. So, that being said l think a conversion to a Justice Center may be the only other option. If that's the case we get to keep that important building and we get to inject real life into what is supposed to be our main intersection. 

 

And the old Justice Center? I don't know. Maybe we can figure out a way to keep the tower and tear the rest down. Maybe it all comes down and then we have an opportunity to build a brand new residential neighborhood full of 8 - 12 story apartments interspersed with retail to provide services to those residents. We could get the best of both worlds out of this.

I would hate to see a 400 ft building demolished.

Me too. But does it lend itself to re-purposing? I really don't know. I do know that is one ponderous building as is.

I'm curious how much of the decision will be based on design vs. the economic proposal.  Anyone know if there was a scoring matrix published?

If the Centennial were to get the courts, would it lose the TMUD?  Maybe it should.

I don't believe either Centennial or Landmark retrofits will please the judges very much.  Past events suggest they have a significant amount of influence when it comes to a final decision.

 

I think if Bedrock was really serious about its proposal it would have offered a new build on the river rather than pawning off a creaky outdated building which will cost a fortune to retrofit.

1 hour ago, TMart said:

While those were some decent looking buildings, it just looks very suburban to me. I do like the streetcar tracks. Would love to see those down Euclid...

 

Then I'd wet myself in joy if Cleveland could look "suburban" like Dublin.

 

Skyscrapers are great, but they're not the be-all, end-all of urbanism.  Look outside the American context to see how wonderful midrise density can be at the ground level, where it really counts the most.

16 hours ago, roman totale XVII said:

I love the concept, but that is the huge caveat. 

That was my exact first thought. I would be in love with this idea if I were confident the details would be compelling. By which I mean a typical visitor to the city is surprised to learn the construction year is 2025 and not 1885. If they don't pass as the originals, it's going to be very hokey in my opinion.

 

On the other point, Dublin has 2.5x the population density of Cleveland, and more people per square mile than Cleveland has ever had. While not necessarily dense by European standards, it's more dense than Chicago and Philadelphia and almost but not quite as dense as Boston. I don't think the "lack of density" will be to our detriment.

 

51 minutes ago, X said:

 

Then I'd wet myself in joy if Cleveland could look "suburban" like Dublin.

 

Skyscrapers are great, but they're not the be-all, end-all of urbanism.  Look outside the American context to see how wonderful midrise density can be at the ground level, where it really counts the most.

I don't disagree that density is really what help give a city its fell.  However, people do tend to think of high-rise structures when they think of a city (NYC - Empire State, World Trade, Hudson Yard, Chicago - Sears Tower, John Hancock, Paris - Eiffel Tower, London - Big Ben, Shanghai - Shanghai Tower, Financial Center, Pearl Tower, etc)

A city needs both low, mid and high-rise structures - BUT what other opportunities are there (aside from a new Courthouse Tower) for a build that could change Cleveland's skyline, announce the city's resurgence and start changing the world's impression of the city?

This seems like one big opportunity to make a statement that isn't made with a remodel, a low or midrise campus.

My two cents

High-rises are the result of market forces and dynamic economies. Not the other way around.

 

We still have a lot of empty holes to fill, including in two existing, huge buildings that are a few ticks either side of a million square feet.

This is still too early to juice @KJPin on any further details - because this is literally all I've heard... 

 

But I overheard a couple acquaintances discussing the possibility of a tower conversion into affordable (not publicly subsidized) housing with 3-4 story, on-street structures occupying the space of the former jail with dining/retail on ground level. 

 

The conversation also involved a sizzling criticism for the county's current handling of the Medical Mart, and how they fear that will be an underutilized dead spot for years to come 😔

On 10/24/2023 at 12:00 PM, Rustbelter said:

Any other insight on this? Is the Virgil Brown Center eyesore being done away with?

 

There's a mass of parcels here if redeveloped with mixed uses would lowkey be pretty transformational IMO. Probably more so than some other higher-profile concepts around Cleveland being discussed. I've only heard about the Greyhound site from KJP's article.

 

 

Maybe this site gets moved to the Playhouse Square thread.  So much potential here.

26 minutes ago, KJP said:

High-rises are the result of market forces and dynamic economies. Not the other way around.

 

We still have a lot of empty holes to fill, including in two existing, huge buildings that are a few ticks either side of a million square feet.

Respectfully disagree.  Market forces and economies change. 

Admittedly, a new court tower high rise would need a developer that believes future economics will favor Cleveland (which I do - unfortunately, I'm not a developer).

We need someone that believes in Cleveland and has a vision for the future and that wants to make a statement about that future now.

A high rise is the best way to do that.

Older buildings that are better suited for some form of residential or hotel conversion (my opinion) do not make a similar statement.

 

I hope the mayor, the judges/lawyers and a developer seize the opportunity.  If they don't, I'm sure whatever selected will be great - but, it will also be a missed opportunity.

 

3 hours ago, dski44 said:

I would hate to see a 400 ft building demolished.

 

Yeah but that one? Someone give me a sledgehammer. 

I personally think lots of mid-rise development will have more of an impact on vibrancy than a skyscraper. I stayed in downtown Portland, OR recently and was blown away by how dense it felt and all the buildings I saw were 12 stories or below. In fact, their skyline except for the mountain is not that impressive. But the street energy was great.

 

The one thing I will say about this potential development is, I wonder how much energy a complex of courthouses will have. In DC there is Judiciary Square, which has a similar campus layout and there are lots of people there during the day but it's not the most fun place to spend time.

1 minute ago, ASP1984 said:

 

Yeah but that one? Someone give me a sledgehammer. 

It might look better without the jail buildings surrounding it.  And maybe it could be re-clad to look a little less brutal.

1 minute ago, LibertyBlvd said:

It might look better without the jail buildings surrounding it.  And maybe it could be re-clad to look a little less brutal.

 

It sticks out so bad in the skyline. Hate to say so but its a truly awful building. And I'm a fan of Brutalism. 

12 minutes ago, Chazz Michael Michaels said:

We need someone that believes in Cleveland and has a vision for the future and that wants to make a statement about that future now.

I don't think there has been one since Richard Jacobs departed.  Maybe, Dan Gilbert, but I think Detroit is his top priority,

While I really enjoy the vision of the iconic lost buildings of Cleveland, it makes me think that the Hilton Convention Hotel will be odd as the only tall building in the area. 

22 minutes ago, Chazz Michael Michaels said:

Respectfully disagree.  Market forces and economies change. 

Admittedly, a new court tower high rise would need a developer that believes future economics will favor Cleveland (which I do - unfortunately, I'm not a developer).

We need someone that believes in Cleveland and has a vision for the future and that wants to make a statement about that future now.

A high rise is the best way to do that.

Older buildings that are better suited for some form of residential or hotel conversion (my opinion) do not make a similar statement.

 

I hope the mayor, the judges/lawyers and a developer seize the opportunity.  If they don't, I'm sure whatever selected will be great - but, it will also be a missed opportunity.

 

I think KJP's point is that it's not typical to just build a high rise and then hope that causes economic dynamism. It's that when the economy is dynamic enough, the proper market conditions exist, and supply and demand call for it, do high rises get constructed. With the Landmark and Centennial buildings still vacant, the supply is high, so the demand for new space is less and a new high rise is less likely until the supply shrinks. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't take KJP as expressing a preference. More like he was explaining the economic reality of the situation. 

 

I want new high rises as much as anyone, but I think it makes total sense to fill up the Landmarks and Centennial buildings first. I'm hoping the Justice Center goes to the Centennial building, as it might remain vacant for some time if not.

I know this is a pipe dream but I'd love to see condos in its place. Whether through a repurposing or a new project, IDC. But get more equity downtown.

2 hours ago, Chazz Michael Michaels said:

Older buildings that are better suited for some form of residential or hotel conversion (my opinion)

Courthouses are essentially office buildings so I'm not sure I agree that Centennial and Landmark (existing office buildings) are better suited for a conversion to a new use.  In the end, I think a reuse of either of these buildings for any use will likely require a gut renovation.  So I would say that's a non-issue. 

 

2 hours ago, Chazz Michael Michaels said:

Market forces and economies change. 

Market forces and economies can change yes.  But the market forces don't currently support (and haven't for some time) a 1 million sf residential conversion of a historic office building.  If they did, Centennial would be done, and Bedrock would likely not have bothered putting in a proposal on the Landmark.  While I agree that they would make great apartment buildings, it will likely take years to fill those apartments, and who can guarantee the number of tenants and the rents they'll pay?  Meanwhile, if a developer has a tenant (the County in this case) ready and willing to occupy the entire project on Day 1, who wouldn't jump at that chance?

2 hours ago, Milkshake1 said:

I think KJP's point is that it's not typical to just build a high rise and then hope that causes economic dynamism. It's that when the economy is dynamic enough, the proper market conditions exist, and supply and demand call for it, do high rises get constructed. With the Landmark and Centennial buildings still vacant, the supply is high, so the demand for new space is less and a new high rise is less likely until the supply shrinks. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't take KJP as expressing a preference. More like he was explaining the economic reality of the situation. 

 

I want new high rises as much as anyone, but I think it makes total sense to fill up the Landmarks and Centennial buildings first. I'm hoping the Justice Center goes to the Centennial building, as it might remain vacant for some time if not.

The beautiful part about a potential high rise here is you have a tenant, the county, already lined up.

I'm not expert on the costs nor the potential uses for a redo at Landmark and Centennial - I just think it is a missed opportunity for the city if a potential landmark tower that could change the image of the city is wasted.

The current facility needs to go and perhaps the Centennial and Landmark are appropriate targets - I just think it would be a wasted opportunity to build something that help kick off more of the rust belt image.

I wonder if any of the principals who are proposing retrofitting either Landmark or Centennial into a courthouse have actually done any detailed design work or run costs estimates for conversion of out of date office buildings into a modern courthouse.  Given the timeline of the RFP my guess is no.  I think they just jumped into what they believe is a golden opportunity to get rid of the albatross around their necks.

 

The big question in my mind is have they factored the cost to retrofit the buildings to include more than 20 modern courtrooms with the necessary high ceilings.  I am guessing it will require them to cut through floor plates over and over at great cost.  I am also wondering it structural support posts will be an issue.  This retrofitting will be much more complicated than an apartment conversion, which will also be pretty costly given the age of these buildings.

19 minutes ago, Dino said:

Courthouses are essentially office buildings so I'm not sure I agree that Centennial and Landmark (existing office buildings) are better suited for a conversion to a new use.  In the end, I think a reuse of either of these buildings for any use will likely require a gut renovation.  So I would say that's a non-issue. 

 

Market forces and economies can change yes.  But the market forces don't currently support (and haven't for some time) a 1 million sf residential conversion of a historic office building.  If they did, Centennial would be done, and Bedrock would likely not have bothered putting in a proposal on the Landmark.  While I agree that they would make great apartment buildings, it will likely take years to fill those apartments, and who can guarantee the number of tenants and the rents they'll pay?  Meanwhile, if a developer has a tenant (the County in this case) ready and willing to occupy the entire project on Day 1, who wouldn't jump at that chance?

I think the same case can be made for a new tower as long as a developer has a tenant, the county, lined up.

Again, I'm sure a better mind than mine could think of alternate uses for the existing buildings (e.g., mixed use (hotel and residential or could the government remake the buildings to house immigrants that could be used as labor for the auto-industry - that would reverse population declines pretty fast).

I'm not an expert.  I think the long-term fundamentals are perfect for Cleveland (climate change, immigration, etc).  Without trying to be political, I'd just think a new courthouse tower is a great opportunity to make a statement.

 

I'll stop now - promise

36 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

I wonder if any of the principals who are proposing retrofitting either Landmark or Centennial into a courthouse have actually done any detailed design work or run costs estimates for conversion of out of date office buildings into a modern courthouse.  Given the timeline of the RFP my guess is no.  I think they just jumped into what they believe is a golden opportunity to get rid of the albatross around their necks.

 

The big question in my mind is have they factored the cost to retrofit the buildings to include more than 20 modern courtrooms with the necessary high ceilings.  I am guessing it will require them to cut through floor plates over and over at great cost.  I am also wondering it structural support posts will be an issue.  This retrofitting will be much more complicated than an apartment conversion, which will also be pretty costly given the age of these buildings.

That is what I was thinking about retrofitting. Don’t courthouses have all sorts of unique security features and need hidden hallways and even tunnels? Has any major city ever retrofitted a historic building to make a complex like that? That to me seems like it would be too hard to do. 

Yup, @Milkshake1 It's important to recognize which one is the cause and which one is the effect.

Other cities have or are answering to this opportunity.  These seem better to me than retrofitting an old existing building.

Miami:

 

Sacramento:

 

The list of previously completed projects is obviously longer (I won't post them all):

 

St. Louis

 

 

San Diego

 

Minneapolis:

 

Buffalo:

i really like the throwback campus plan as out of the box thinking, but if i were the kang of the clev i would lean into just gutting the complex and redoing the interiors.

 

what can i say, its brutalism is growing more handsome by the day lol. it looks pretty good from three of the four corners around it, with one big exception …

 

the st clair/w3rd quadrant jail bldg on the sw corner. that freakin eyesore has got to go. i would rebuild it as an L-shaped jail tower, but with the L bldg back off the street — that would leave the corner an open square park lot for now. so you would get an egregious eyesore removed with a bonus the city or county could then sell off that prime corner lot later when somebody wants to redevelop it.

 

i mean lets be optimistic here and assume the west side of w3rd aka the karl’s bar side is going to be redeveloped sooner than later, so why not let the county/city get in on that with a great corner lot across the street they could barter to help spark some action there.

4 hours ago, mrnyc said:

the st clair/w3rd quadrant jail bldg on the sw corner. that freakin eyesore has got to go. i would rebuild it as an L-shaped jail tower, but with the L bldg back off the street — that would leave the corner an open square park lot for now. so you would get an egregious eyesore removed with a bonus the city or county could then sell off that prime corner lot later when somebody wants to redevelop it.

 

I wonder if the appearance of the bleak jail could be improved cheaply by painting trompe-l'oeil windows into the stone.  It doesn't HAVE to look as bad as it does.

 

Courthouse proposals are on trial
By Ken Prendergast / November 3, 2023

 

In local real estate parlance, a “whale” is a development project whose total floorspace measures 1 million square feet or more. Not only are they big, they’re tough to get. But there are two Cleveland entities who were able to do what Capt. Ahab could not — catch the whale. Two whales are under construction right now — Sherwin-Williams’ new headquarters tower downtown and Cleveland Clinic’s new Neurological Institute in the Fairfax neighborhood, near University Circle. A third whale is in the early stages of the chase, a stage where things are most fluid and thus, very intriguing.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/11/03/courthouse-proposals-are-on-trial/

1 hour ago, KJP said:

 

Courthouse proposals are on trial
By Ken Prendergast / November 3, 2023

 

In local real estate parlance, a “whale” is a development project whose total floorspace measures 1 million square feet or more. Not only are they big, they’re tough to get. But there are two Cleveland entities who were able to do what Capt. Ahab could not — catch the whale. Two whales are under construction right now — Sherwin-Williams’ new headquarters tower downtown and Cleveland Clinic’s new Neurological Institute in the Fairfax neighborhood, near University Circle. A third whale is in the early stages of the chase, a stage where things are most fluid and thus, very intriguing.

 

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https://neo-trans.blog/2023/11/03/courthouse-proposals-are-on-trial/

Thanks for the article.  This level of uncertainty is why some people are to cede their thinking to authoritarian figures.  

People want strong, confident leadership.

They don't want people that say - well, we're not sure what we want, please tell us what you think is best and we'll consider everything and take forever to make a decision that has considered everyone's thoughts and feelings.

 

Forget that, they want to hear someone that is willing to step forward and say "I believe in our city, I believe we are prepared for the future.  Give us a 1,000 ft courthouse and a 1,000 room convention hotel that will show the world our city is back on the rise and prepared for the future.  Whatever it costs today is less than it will cost tomorrow."  

 

Other cities that are less well positioned for the future wouldn't blink.  Believe in yourself Cleveland.  Don't let the challenges of the past be obstacles for your future.  Build a symbol or symbols of your resurgence NOW.

 

I'll get down off my soapbox now.

1 hour ago, Chazz Michael Michaels said:

Thanks for the article.  This level of uncertainty is why some people are to cede their thinking to authoritarian figures.  

People want strong, confident leadership.

They don't want people that say - well, we're not sure what we want, please tell us what you think is best and we'll consider everything and take forever to make a decision that has considered everyone's thoughts and feelings.

 

Forget that, they want to hear someone that is willing to step forward and say "I believe in our city, I believe we are prepared for the future.  Give us a 1,000 ft courthouse and a 1,000 room convention hotel that will show the world our city is back on the rise and prepared for the future.  Whatever it costs today is less than it will cost tomorrow."  

 

Other cities that are less well positioned for the future wouldn't blink.  Believe in yourself Cleveland.  Don't let the challenges of the past be obstacles for your future.  Build a symbol or symbols of your resurgence NOW.

 

I'll get down off my soapbox now.

Burj Cuyahoga incoming!

41 minutes ago, marty15 said:

Burj Cuyahoga incoming!

 

Edited November 4, 20231 yr by Chazz Michael Michaels
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11 hours ago, Chazz Michael Michaels said:

Thanks for the article.  This level of uncertainty is why some people are to cede their thinking to authoritarian figures.  

People want strong, confident leadership.

They don't want people that say - well, we're not sure what we want, please tell us what you think is best and we'll consider everything and take forever to make a decision that has considered everyone's thoughts and feelings.

 

Forget that, they want to hear someone that is willing to step forward and say "I believe in our city, I believe we are prepared for the future.  Give us a 1,000 ft courthouse and a 1,000 room convention hotel that will show the world our city is back on the rise and prepared for the future.  Whatever it costs today is less than it will cost tomorrow."  

 

Other cities that are less well positioned for the future wouldn't blink.  Believe in yourself Cleveland.  Don't let the challenges of the past be obstacles for your future.  Build a symbol or symbols of your resurgence NOW.

 

I'll get down off my soapbox now.

That someone needs to have $$$.