So, what did everyone think about the new movie?

My biggest disappointment was that Tower City Cinemas didn't show the Star Trek trailer before the premiere

 

But I thought the movie was great. The thing I liked best was probably Kylo Ren's character. Star Wars has always been fairly white and black when it comes to good vs. evil, so I appreciated a villain that was conflicted and thus more complex.

 

I loved the movie. Personally it ranks as the second best Star Wars movie of all time. Just behind Empire Strikes Back (obviously).

 

I am really excited to learn more about Rey in the future. Despite Kylo Ren being the most complex character, I'm really excited to see what the writers have in store for her.

 

Also, really cool that all of the promotional material showed Finn with a light saber and Rey with a stick, but Rey is the one who has such a strong use of the force. Pretty fun twist (I avoided almost all mentions of the movie until I saw it. I only knew that Finn was a former storm trooper).

 

My prediction for Episode VIII is that it fast forwards to Kylo Ren being finished with his training from Snoke, and Rey being far into hers with Luke when a crisis forces it to be interrupted (likely Kylo Ren/Snoke finding Luke's whereabouts). I really hope Kylo Ren is much calmer in the next movie, making his use of the force much more intimidating than it already was.

 

Big prediction time: Kylo Ren kills Luke in the next movie, and then Snoke tries to kill Kylo Ren, fearing he could overthrow him. This fear would be warranted since there is a strong precedent for this happening:

1) Emperor Palpatine/Darth Sidious overthrew Darth Plagueis before Episode I. I believe Plagueis is Snoke and he will naturally be fearful of anyone he trains. He is using Kylo Ren to carry out his mission, and then will try to dispose of him. That huge gash in Snoke's face is likely from Sidious putting a light saber through it. But he stated to Anakin in III that Plagueis was able to save people from death. So I think there is a case that he is the strongest force user of all time and was simply in hiding a la Voldemort while the entire I-VI took place as he was recovering.

2) Anakin betrays Obi Wan (his master) and Mace Windu and moves to the dark side.

3) Darth Vader asks Luke to join him to overthrow the Emperor and rule together.

4) Darth Vader ultimately betrays the Emperor in the last possible moment.

5) Kylo Ren betrays Luke (according to pieces of stories that have been told thus far).

 

Kylo Ren is able to avoid the all powerful Snoke/Plagueis's attempt to assassinate him and he turns to the light side. This was only possible because he never killed his father and so he never completed his transformation to the dark side. Despite this theory, Han is still dead. I believe when they were standing on the bridge, Han was trying to bring him back to the light side and realized that the only way to preserve his ability to do so was to save the last shred of good in him and ignite the saber himself while they both held it so he didn't have to kill his father. That's why Han said he would do "anything" for him. He wasn't suckered into his son's false sense of sorrow or something. Han has never been suckered before. He knew what he was doing and that the only way to bring their son back to Leia was to sacrifice himself to preserve Kylo's ability to come back (though I doubt he survives the trilogy). Kylo's training will much further suppress his call to the light side, but will not eliminate it, and at the last moment, he will realize he was used, temporarily saving his life and helping the Resistance.

Also, the return to costumes and practical effects was very well done. Some characters were obviously CGI, but it didn't distract from the story (Moz comes to mind). But most of the characters in the crowded scenes like Moz's bar were costumes and it felt great.

 

I think the negative backlash of the prequels gave writers and JJ Abrams a good idea of how to properly bring back the franchise today. Without the prequels, we would probably be getting the prequels today and lamenting about how bad this movie was.

 

Most of the dialogue felt really natural and the jokes were classic IV-VI jokes.

I saw it with my son and my dad yesterday and we all loved it.  Very entertaining.  Well directed and the special effects were great (but not overdone.... if that is even possible).

 

I am not so sure yet that Fin won't end up being a Jedi himself.  It seemed that Kylo Ren sensed something from him when he stared at him in the beginning.  We don't know who Fin's parent's are, and neither does he, but I wonder if he has some relation to Mace Windu.  On the other hand, my dad correctly pointed out that he somewhat mirrored the Han Solo role from IV.

 

As for Rey, she seems to be the Luke of this series for sure.  We don't yet know here family tree.  That may be a twist of events in VIII I suppose, much like it was for Luke in Empire Strikes Back.  I have a strong feeling that her roots are significant.

 

Overall a great flick.  Plenty of action and enough laughs.  Driver did a good job with the conflicted Ren.  Ridley is a rising star.

I am conflicted on it. It was very well done, great characters, perfect pace, good humor. Successfully recaptures the feel of the original trilogy.

 

I must admit though, I am still a bit skeptical of Disney and JJ. I enjoyed the political aspects of the prequels... Palpatine scheming and manipulating to become Emperor (almost like Frank Underwood in House of Cards), and the fall of Anakin, made the prequels enjoyable for me in spite of their flaws. I hope that backstory isn't all whitewashed and all political plotlines ignored in the new trilogy. Don't want them to dumb down Star Wars like they did Star Trek, and remove any deeper themes and meanings.

 

Another negative to me was that by having the galaxy still fighting the same conflict 30 years later was a bit depressing and also took away from the achievements of beating the Empire in Return of the Jedi. It's like, why bother? You beat Vader and Palpatine and Death Star and new ones simply come out of nowhere in a few years? There's an argument to be made that this movie is more of a clandestine remake than a sequel. At least with the prequels, Lucas tried something different. His original idea years ago when he first came up with the idea of having 3 trilogies, was for the prequels to cover politics, the originals to cover family, redemption, and good vs evil, and the sequel trilogy to cover more spiritual themes. Each trilogy having separate themes and a clear beginning and end. Now with Disney I fear we will get the same formula forever. I would have loved if Lucas could have had his overarching ideas in the prequels and brought in other writers and directors to help him, instead of surrounding himself with yes-men like he did. Because I think his overarching ideas are some of the best.

 

Is there ever going to be Star Peace? Will the good guys ever finally win? With Disney's plans of new movies every year into eternity, maybe not. And each new movie will take away from the significance of all the ones that came before it.

 

Anyways, just some alternate viewpoints from the praise being given above. Like I said, overall I liked the movie, will be seeing it again soon. I probably take Star Wars too seriously.

... that this movie is more of a clandestine remake than a sequel...

 

Sort of like JJ's Star Trek Into Darkness...?

... that this movie is more of a clandestine remake than a sequel...

 

Sort of like JJ's Star Trek Into Darkness...?

 

Star Trek: ID was pretty much a ripoff.

Star Wars: TFA was more INSPIRED by the original. I didn't get the direct remake vibe that others did. Similar plot development, but I think it stands on its own.

... that this movie is more of a clandestine remake than a sequel...

 

Sort of like JJ's Star Trek Into Darkness...?

 

Star Trek: ID was pretty much a ripoff.

Star Wars: TFA was more INSPIRED by the original. I didn't get the direct remake vibe that others did. Similar plot development, but I think it stands on its own.

 

Yeah, I do agree with that. I do hope that we get more back story about the last 30 years though in the next two movies. As mu2010[/member] mentioned above, I really enjoyed the politics of the prequel movies. I think looking at a post-revolution galaxy would be fascinating. We learn next to nothing about the New Republic and then it seems to have been eviscerated in just a blink of an eye.

 

Some questions I have:

-What amount of the galaxy does the Republic have under its control?

-What is the relationship between the Republic and the Resistance?

-What exactly was wiped out by the First Order's super weapon? The planet looked like Coruscant, but I don't think Coruscant was the capital of the New Republic

-Why does the Republic not seem to engage directly with the First Order militarily?

Is there ever going to be Star Peace? Will the good guys ever finally win?

 

My guess is that the galaxy will finally be at "peace" after IX. They will keep making movies because they make $$$$$$. But I think those movies will cover smaller plots surrounding the universe rather than the ultimate struggle of good vs evil. All future films should be like Rogue One (coming out next December) where it goes into greater detail of characters or plots mentioned in the three trilogies. These other films don't need quite the character development or plot that the trilogies require.

 

I think ultimate critique of VII has to wait until the trilogy is complete. We didn't realize the importance of Vader until V. And in a way, Episode III made Episode VI way better than it otherwise would have been. Seeing Anakin's decent into darkness was really well done (even if the acting and writing were terrible). And it added a lot of weight to Luke's struggle to stay with the light side.

 

When I originally watched Episodes IV-VI, I didn't believe for a second that Luke would turn to the dark side. It just didn't feel real. That is one of the biggest failures of the original trilogy IMO. But then after seeing I-III, you see Anakin's decent. Yoda telling Luke that leaving his training early to save loved ones would be dangerous and he could be seduced to the dark side in Episode V had a lot more weight to it. Luke force choking the guards in Jabba's palace in VI while shrouding his face in darkness had so much more weight after watching the prequels. It's a perfect follow up to Anakin moving toward the dark side. I think Luke will have realized how unstable he really is even after Episode VI which would lead partially to his seclusion in the following years leading up to VII.

 

My biggest hope is the writing continues to be top notch, the story diversifies itself in plot elements and throwbacks to the original trilogy (please for the love of god, don't have Kylo cut off Rey's hand or something to end VIII).

 

Once Episode IX finally is released we can judge them as a whole and look at the plot elements and how they interact with the other two trilogies. Like I said, Episodes I-III made Episodes IV-VI much better. I hope VII-IX ultimately make the other two trilogies better as well. We'll have to wait and see, though.

-What amount of the galaxy does the Republic have under its control?

-What is the relationship between the Republic and the Resistance?

-What exactly was wiped out by the First Order's super weapon? The planet looked like Coruscant, but I don't think Coruscant was the capital of the New Republic

-Why does the Republic not seem to engage directly with the First Order militarily?

 

My understanding is that the Resistance is ultimately the entity fighting the First Order. The New Republic is a political entity that provides funding and is generally sympathetic to the Resistance, but they do not control the Resistance.

 

There is probably a lot of hesitation among the New Republic's leadership in starting a large military because of what happened with the Old Republic was transitioned into the Empire. They see the Resistance as a force they can support, but don't want control over for fear of the wrong people taking over.

 

And as I understand it, the First Order likely started in an isolated region of the galaxy and took over a lot of smaller, insignificant systems as they built up power (kind of like ISIS). Also, I don't think the New Republic has control over most of the galaxy, which led to the rise of the First Order. Just a few systems. It wasn't entirely flushed out in this movie, though. So I could be wrong about how much they controlled. There is a brief line by Snoke about cutting off the Resistance's supporter by destroying the New Republic. And I don't think that was Coruscant. I'm sure it's definitively explained in some further reading. But providing all of the minutia is part of what ruined I-III, so doing a little research to find out exactly how the galaxy was organized is OK, IMO.

My guess is that the galaxy will finally be at "peace" after IX. They will keep making movies because they make $$$$$$. But I think those movies will cover smaller plots surrounding the universe rather than the ultimate struggle of good vs evil. All future films should be like Rogue One (coming out next December) where it goes into greater detail of characters or plots mentioned in the three trilogies. These other films don't need quite the character development or plot that the trilogies require.

 

That's what I'm hoping. I think the epic quality of the defeat of Palpatine and the Empire is somewhat diluted by the fact that apparently there was a Snoke waiting in the wings. If Snoke is Plagueis as you suggested above (I really liked your theory about Snoke eventually trying to whack Kylo), that would go a long way to me to suggest that we aren't just going to have an endless line of very similar dark lords to defeat (not to mention another generation of Skywalkers to fight them or join them). You can only have a few "final battles" before they all lose significance and that's where my concerns come from. I think we can get away with three more movies though.

 

I think ultimate critique of VII has to wait until the trilogy is complete. We didn't realize the importance of Vader until V. And in a way, Episode III made Episode VI way better than it otherwise would have been. Seeing Anakin's decent into darkness was really well done (even if the acting and writing were terrible). And it added a lot of weight to Luke's struggle to stay with the light side.

 

Agreed. I actually was not a prequel fan after I and II came out, but I really loved III, and that retroactively changed my opinion on the first two.

 

When I originally watched Episodes IV-VI, I didn't believe for a second that Luke would turn to the dark side. It just didn't feel real. That is one of the biggest failures of the original trilogy IMO. But then after seeing I-III, you see Anakin's decent. Yoda telling Luke that leaving his training early to save loved ones would be dangerous and he could be seduced to the dark side in Episode V had a lot more weight to it. Luke force choking the guards in Jabba's palace in VI while shrouding his face in darkness had so much more weight after watching the prequels. It's a perfect follow up to Anakin moving toward the dark side. I think Luke will have realized how unstable he really is even after Episode VI which would lead partially to his seclusion in the following years leading up to VII.

 

One of the things I love about the six movies together is that they show Anakin and Luke both have a very similar story, up until a key fork in the road. Anakin makes choice A, and Luke chooses choice B, and we get to see the results of both choices.

 

My biggest hope is the writing continues to be top notch, the story diversifies itself in plot elements and throwbacks to the original trilogy (please for the love of god, don't have Kylo cut off Rey's hand or something to end VIII).

 

Once Episode IX finally is released we can judge them as a whole and look at the plot elements and how they interact with the other two trilogies. Like I said, Episodes I-III made Episodes IV-VI much better. I hope VII-IX ultimately make the other two trilogies better as well. We'll have to wait and see, though.

 

Overall, I just hope that they keep the narrative flow of the entire "saga" in mind when they write these last two movies, and not just the movie at hand. That was what Lucas always got right IMO, even if he got a lot of other things wrong. As long as they do that, it looks like we'll get some great movies.

-What amount of the galaxy does the Republic have under its control?

-What is the relationship between the Republic and the Resistance?

-What exactly was wiped out by the First Order's super weapon? The planet looked like Coruscant, but I don't think Coruscant was the capital of the New Republic

-Why does the Republic not seem to engage directly with the First Order militarily?

 

My understanding is that the Resistance is ultimately the entity fighting the First Order. The New Republic is a political entity that provides funding and is generally sympathetic to the Resistance, but they do not control the Resistance.

 

There is probably a lot of hesitation among the New Republic's leadership in starting a large military because of what happened with the Old Republic was transitioned into the Empire. They see the Resistance as a force they can support, but don't want control over for fear of the wrong people taking over.

 

And as I understand it, the First Order likely started in an isolated region of the galaxy and took over a lot of smaller, insignificant systems as they built up power (kind of like ISIS). Also, I don't think the New Republic has control over most of the galaxy, which led to the rise of the First Order. Just a few systems. It wasn't entirely flushed out in this movie, though. So I could be wrong about how much they controlled. There is a brief line by Snoke about cutting off the Resistance's supporter by destroying the New Republic. And I don't think that was Coruscant. I'm sure it's definitively explained in some further reading. But providing all of the minutia is part of what ruined I-III, so doing a little research to find out exactly how the galaxy was organized is OK, IMO.

 

So, Wookieepedia says the planet that was destroyed was Hosnian Prime, in the Hosnian System. I didn't think of looking there as I sometimes forget how Star Wars defines its "cannon" more liberally than some other franchises

 

Also, here's a good article: http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2015/12/18/what-the-hell-is-the-story-with-the-resistance-and-the-first-order-in-the-f

My fiance took me to the marathon in Valley View for my birthday this past week. (She's awesome... ask ).

 

 

Episode One started at 3:00 AM Thursday morning and they ran with 15 minute breaks between each episode except between III & IV (60 minutes) , and VI & VII (45 minutes). It was amazing to see all of the episodes on the big screen again and with the proper sounds system.

 

 

I thought Episode VII was amazing. Almost perfect. However, I did have an issue with yet another "Death Star", or whatever it was called. And yet another trench flight. Yeah, yeah... it is different ... but not really.

 

 

We're going to see it again tomorrow. This time with well rested eyes.

Another negative to me was that by having the galaxy still fighting the same conflict 30 years later was a bit depressing and also took away from the achievements of beating the Empire in Return of the Jedi. It's like, why bother? You beat Vader and Palpatine and Death Star and new ones simply come out of nowhere in a few years?

 

I actually liked that part because I feel like it happens all the time when a ruler is overthrown; either the liberating party becomes corrupted (or started out that way) or some third force takes over when a fledgling government collapses.  I'm hoping that we'll find out in the next movie that the rebel alliance took power and itself was corrupted into the first order, which would explain why Leia's group is being referred to as the resistance instead of the rebel alliance.

 

As for the movie itself, I thought it was very well done.  My only complaint was that instead of making Rey simply the next jedi, they tried  to make her some sort of mechanical/technological genius as well.  That would be fine except that they tried to do this by having her bang on machinery, hit some random buttons to activate doors on a freighter, or having her simply rip some wiring out of the Millenium Falcon, which magically fixed some issue with the hyperdrive.  It just felt really forced, especially when you've got this cute little new droid rolling around that could have done all of that a lot more believably.

I thought Episode VII was amazing. Almost perfect. However, I did have an issue with yet another "Death Star", or whatever it was called. And yet another trench flight. Yeah, yeah... it is different ... but not really.

 

That bothered me, too.  It's a cool concept, but why would anyone invest the type of resources it would take to build something like that when the first two failed in such spectacular fashion?

As for the movie itself, I thought it was very well done.  My only complaint was that instead of making Rey simply the next jedi, they tried  to make her some sort of mechanical/technological genius as well.  That would be fine except that they tried to do this by having her bang on machinery, hit some random buttons to activate doors on a freighter, or having her simply rip some wiring out of the Millenium Falcon, which magically fixed some issue with the hyperdrive.  It just felt really forced, especially when you've got this cute little new droid rolling around that could have done all of that a lot more believably.

 

I think Rey's origin (post 6ish years old when she's dropped off) makes sense for her skill as a pilot. She has spent the last ~12 years picking apart fallen ships. I would imagine she would have a really good idea of how they parts work together. She's literally had a decade dissecting ships. She also seems relatively familiar with the Millennium Falcon as well. Perhaps she has had some additional work fixing up the Falcon for her master/whatever he is on Jakku as a side job that we just didn't see.

 

That rebel/FO idea is pretty cool. That would be a great origin to the First Order.

 

I imagine VIII will be very heavily focused on Rey's origin.

I thought Episode VII was amazing. Almost perfect. However, I did have an issue with yet another "Death Star", or whatever it was called. And yet another trench flight. Yeah, yeah... it is different ... but not really.

 

That bothered me, too.  It's a cool concept, but why would anyone invest the type of resources it would take to build something like that when the first two failed in such spectacular fashion?

 

Because they have such enormous power. The First Order wanted to show that they would be able to exceed the power of the Empire. My problem was more with how easy it was to get the shields lowered.

I thought Episode VII was amazing. Almost perfect. However, I did have an issue with yet another "Death Star", or whatever it was called. And yet another trench flight. Yeah, yeah... it is different ... but not really.

 

That bothered me, too.  It's a cool concept, but why would anyone invest the type of resources it would take to build something like that when the first two failed in such spectacular fashion?

 

Someone else pointed out that after the first atomic bomb we haven't tried to invent some new crazy weapon, we have just tried to make a better atomic bomb. Similar to the Death Star/Starkiller Base. Also, I like to think that Starkiller Base was only going to be used 2 times and then abandoned. They only wanted to destroy the Republic and the Resistance and were just looking for intel on the Resistance headquarters to carry it out. Clearly Snoke was not too worried about Starkiller Base being destroyed, so there is definitely a lot more to the First Order than just this.

I think it would have been really cool if the planet that they created Starkiller Base out of would have originally been a tropical planet, but after the first attack, the star's energy was diminished so much that snow started falling. It would have been neat to see a clearly tropical planet covered in snow with no explanation and just let you realize what had happened.

Seeing Anakin's decent into darkness was really well done (even if the acting and writing were terrible). And it added a lot of weight to Luke's struggle to stay with the light side.

 

I'm surprised to hear you say that, because I think that was one of the biggest missed opportunities in the prequel trilogy.  I don't want our discussion to get too far away from VII, but I didn't think Anakin's turn was handled very well.  Outside of a few scenes where "he's still good" but he loses his temper... they didn't do work with him being torn in I, very little in II, and suddenly he goes from being a war hero to slaughtering a bunch of little kids in the Jedi Temple in III and then turning on his best friend.  If you somehow didn't know about IV-VI, it would have felt like it came out of nowhere.

I thought the prequels got better as they went along.  III was excellent IMO.  After much debate amongst my family, I rank the movies in this order:

 

V

III

VII

IV

II

VI

I

 

Star Trek rankings are much easier as all of the odd number movies are terrible and most of the evens are good/great..... with VI and IV leading the pack IMO and I and V brining up the rear.

 

 

^ Attack of the Clones above Jedi?!?! I always had VI as my personal #1

Seeing Anakin's decent into darkness was really well done (even if the acting and writing were terrible). And it added a lot of weight to Luke's struggle to stay with the light side.

 

I'm surprised to hear you say that, because I think that was one of the biggest missed opportunities in the prequel trilogy.  I don't want our discussion to get too far away from VII, but I didn't think Anakin's turn was handled very well.  Outside of a few scenes where "he's still good" but he loses his temper... they didn't do work with him being torn in I, very little in II, and suddenly he goes from being a war hero to slaughtering a bunch of little kids in the Jedi Temple in III and then turning on his best friend.  If you somehow didn't know about IV-VI, it would have felt like it came out of nowhere.

 

Here's how I see it:

Anakin is taught that the Jedi Order is all good. He sees obvious lack of the Jedi doing what is right. He is born a slave. Shouldn't the Jedi have removed all slavery from the galaxy? The Jedi are clearly aware of the problem, but fail to fix it. Then his family is killed on Tatooine and he shows his obvious emotion and rage.

Anakin falls in love with Padme and has children on the way without anyone knowing. He can't tell his fellow Jedi or he may be stripped of power.

Anakin senses Padme's death in repeated visions (as Luke and Rey both have visions).

Anakin is told by Palpatine that those on the dark side can get power never seen on the light side.

Anakin tells the Jedi about Palpatine being a Sith Lord despite his clear hope to save Padme.

Anakin walks in on what he sees as Mace Windu trying to assassinate a clearly injured Palpatine. He doesn't see Palpatine fighting back until Anakin has already cut off Mace's hand. He doesn't see a difference between the dark side and the light side because he has only really witnessed bad deeds done by the Jedi.

After he realizes there is no turning back he does anything Palpatine asks in order to save the one he loves. Padme obviously still dies, but Anakin has already made his bed. There are no more Jedi to turn to even if he wanted to join the light side again (Luke provides that opportunity in VI). He becomes more and more hateful every day after Padme's death and turns into the Vader we see in IV-VI.

 

I think this storyline makes a lot of sense, but it wasn't written or acted very well, and so it is hard to see the underlying message sometimes.

^^Yep.  I thought Jedi was a bit cheesy.... maybe not so much when I was a kid but definitely now as an adult.  The only thing that saves it for me was Vader/Anakin fulfilling the prophecy that he was the Chosen One who would destroy the Sith Lord.  However, I didn't even realize that until Phantom Menace came out.  By the time of Jedi, Lucas had figured out that there was waaaaay more money in making/selling toys than in the actual production.  Get outta here with the Ewoks.  If you're gonna be mad about JarJar Binks, then you have to be mad about the Ewoks..... and especially the price they put on the Ewok Village. 

So far (any movie could get better/worse if dimension is added by events in future films):

 

V

VII

IV

III

VI

II

I

I'm no good at Roman Numerals so I'll rank with acronyms:

 

ESB (The best of them all, interestingly not well reviewed upon release)

RotS (Anakin's fall and the Empire's rise are awesome)

RotJ (Not sure why people rank this one relatively low, I like it for the ending)

ANH (I could probably flip this one with RotJ depending on whatever way the wind blows that day)

AotC (Good political backstory, but there are some plot holes and Anakin could have been handled better)

TPM (Too childish, although I enjoyed the Naboo conflict storyline)

 

TFA: Too soon for me to rank

^Same reason you give for ranking TPM so low is the reason I rank RotJ so low.  Too childish and gimicky

Introducing: Machete Order

 

How can you ensure that a viewing keeps the Vader reveal a surprise, while introducing young Anakin before the end of Return of the Jedi?

 

Simple, watch them in this order: IV, V, II, III, VI. You may notice Episode I is gone. I'll get to that in a second.

 

http://www.nomachetejuggling.com/2011/11/11/the-star-wars-saga-suggested-viewing-order/

I'm a strong believer of the Machete Order.

 

First, it leaves the reveal that Vader is Anakin Skywalker. Second, it makes the reveal that Padme is carrying twins an incredible shock because the viewer doesn't find out until Episode VI in the original trilogy, but he just kind of guesses it. In this order, you find out that Luke has a twin and then Padme names her and you should be like "oh my God!" In the original trilogy it's surprising, but uneventful.

I loved the movie. Personally it ranks as the second best Star Wars movie of all time. Just behind Empire Strikes Back (obviously).

 

^This.

 

Rey is the winner.

I like to do IV, I, II, V, III, VI

 

4 contrasts well with 1 and 2. You hear obi wan talk about the glory days in 4, then you get to see it. Then you watch 5, get the vader reveal, and immediately get to watch it happen in 3. Then 3 contrasts well with 6. Flashback order.

I like to do IV, I, II, V, III, VI

 

4 contrasts well with 1 and 2. You hear obi wan talk about the glory days in 4, then you get to see it. Then you watch 5, get the vader reveal, and immediately get to watch it happen in 3. Then 3 contrasts well with 6. Flashback order.

 

Interesting.

 

I kind of like the fact that you are 2/3 through the Luke/Vader storyline and then you get thrown back in time for II and III. Both orders give you the contrast between Anakin and Luke in III/VI. Your order still preserves the reveal of Anakin as Luke's father in V and the Luke/Leia sibling thing in III as it should be. I think it's an interesting order that could be further explored. But does Separating IV and V by 4+ hours of film in any way distract you from the storyline?

 

It sort of works to have a break between V/VI because there is a long break in the universe where Han is frozen and Luke is finishing his training.

Well, I know Phantom Menace has its issues, but I don't like the idea of omitting it entirely. Phantom Menace is the only movie where we get to see the Republic, and the Jedi, in a somewhat normal state of affairs and I think that brings a lot to the table. We get to see exactly what was lost. I like watching it right after New Hope because, when Obi-Wan explains the history of the Jedi and the Republic, the Clone Wars to Luke in his hut on Tattooine, I enjoy seeing a flashback to those times immediately after. Obi-Wan stops just short of telling the truth about Vader, and watching I and II right after stops just short of showing Anakin's final downfall.

 

You could do Clones after Empire instead of before, but I like seeing my two favorite films (V and III) back-to-back before the (former) happy ending in VI.

 

There may actually be a longer break between New Hope and Empire than Empire and Jedi. It had to have taken a few years to set up the Hoth base.

Another negative to me was that by having the galaxy still fighting the same conflict 30 years later was a bit depressing and also took away from the achievements of beating the Empire in Return of the Jedi. It's like, why bother? You beat Vader and Palpatine and Death Star and new ones simply come out of nowhere in a few years?

 

I actually liked that part because I feel like it happens all the time when a ruler is overthrown; either the liberating party becomes corrupted (or started out that way) or some third force takes over when a fledgling government collapses.  I'm hoping that we'll find out in the next movie that the rebel alliance took power and itself was corrupted into the first order, which would explain why Leia's group is being referred to as the resistance instead of the rebel alliance.

 

On a second viewing, they also made pretty clear analogs with WWII in TFA. Germany fills in for both the Empire (under the Kaisers), and the First Order (Third Reich). The scene where the First Empire employs the star killer also pretty clearly evokes the Nuremberg rally. Seen in this light, we know how easy it is for a new regime to rise to power in a 30 year window.

 

 

So, any guesses/speculation as to Rey's origins?  To me, that is the biggest cliff-hanger

So, any guesses/speculation as to Rey's origins?  To me, that is the biggest cliff-hanger

 

Would it be too obvious if she were Luke's daughter?

I think so. More likely, IMO, she was one of Luke's students.... who, for whatever reason, was spared by Kylo Ren. I think that would play into the mixed emotions Ren experiences.

After the flashback with the lightsaber, she has to either be his daughter or at the least, a former Jedi pupil hidden on that planet for safety. Somebody (Max von Sydow?) was there watching over her, kind of like how Obi-Wan was on Tattooine watching over Luke. Given that Star Wars loves to have different generations of the same families, I'm betting on Luke's daughter. She could be also be Ren's sister though.

 

The only strange thing is, why wouldn't Han or Leia tell her who she is?

The only strange thing is, why wouldn't Han or Leia tell her who she is?

 

The time wasn't right is the only thing I could think of. My prediction is that she is Luke's daughter, but it's still open to some speculation.

 

The fact that she has such a connection to Luke via his light saber makes me think that, but since it was also Anakin's saber before Luke, it's possible she is simply the granddaughter of Vader.

 

But I think of the saber as Luke's now, so that's my guess. Also, they sent her to go find Luke. I'm really excited to hear about her origin. Why she was left on Jakku, what happened with Luke's academy, and who's lineage she belongs to. Even if the obvious (Luke's daughter) turns out to be true, we don't know who the mother is. I've jokingly suggested Leia, but I can't think of any other female characters in IV-VI that would make any sense, so it's likely going to be someone who we haven't met in the 7 movies thus far.

Here's a what if to think about....

 

What if when Kylo Ren said that he "would finish" what Vader starter, he meant he would finish off the Sith once and for all.... and fulfill the prophecy?

Here's a what if to think about....

 

What if when Kylo Ren said that he "would finish" what Vader starter, he meant he would finish off the Sith once and for all.... and fulfill the prophecy?

 

That's interesting, but why would he then have that monologue to himself/Vader's mask about feeling the pull to the light side? I think they could have intentionally built that line to have a secret meaning for future films, but I don't think his intent is finish the Sith.

I have a personal theory about Han Solo's death. I don't think Kylo Ren kills his father. Every word related to Han and Kylo's meeting is very deliberate, and yet incredibly vague.

 

When Han and Leia first see each other in the film, Leia tells Han, "bring our son home". Meanwhile, Snoke tells Kylo Ren he must face his father, implying he must kill him.

 

Fast forward to the scene on the catwalk in Starkiller Base and Han calls out to Ben. He sincerely asks him to come home. Kylo responds by saying it's too late and Han says "No, it's not. Leave here with me. Come home. We miss you."

 

Then comes the two most important lines of the exchange: Kylo says, "I'm being torn apart. I want to be free of this pain. I know what I have to do but I don't know if I have the strength to do it. Will you help me?"

 

As he does this he is putting his light saber out in what the audience thinks is him surrendering his saber to return. As soon as Han touches the light saber, though, Kylo Ren holds tighter onto the saber to keep Han from actually taking it. Han then says, "Yes, anything."

 

It cuts to Rey and Finn looking from the balcony, and then it goes back to the two of them and the saber ignites into Han's chest.

 

My theory is that when Kylo tightens his grip onto the saber, Han understands what he really means by "will you help me". Kylo is asking Han to kill himself so that he doesn't have to kill him. Han knows that he isn't leaving alive. He will either ignite the saber himself, or allow his son to kill him, thus cementing his turn to the dark side and preventing him from ever bringing their son home to Leia. And so he decides to be the one who ignites the saber, thus killing himself. This protects a sliver of goodness in Kylo. He will always look back at that moment of selflessness by Han and see that he still believed in him and there is a path to turning back. This will always keep him from fully turning to the dark side, just like Vader couldn't kill his son and Luke couldn't kill Vader.

 

None of the lines in their exchange are solid evidence that Han killed himself or that Kylo killed him. They leave just enough ambiguity in the scene so that they can redraw the narrative in a future episode and then you can look back at the scene and realize what Kylo was asking his father to do.

 

Or maybe I'm wrong.

 

Also, a foreshadowing line was Han telling Kylo, "Snoke is using you for your power. When he gets what he wants, he'll crush you. You know it's true." We'll probably see this come to fruition in VIII or IX.

Hmmm, good theory. We're going to see it again tonight. I will look closer at that scene.

There's definitely more to that scene than meets the eye at first blush

Another theory I've heard is that Kylo Ren's goal is to kill Snoke, and the only way he can do it and bring balance is to become a Sith Lord and gain his trust. He killed Han out of necessity rather than what he truly wanted to do.

 

There was much more to that scene than meets the eye. I'm sure we'll find out in future movies that he didn't just murder his father.

Here's a what if to think about....

 

What if when Kylo Ren said that he "would finish" what Vader starter, he meant he would finish off the Sith once and for all.... and fulfill the prophecy?

 

That's interesting, but why would he then have that monologue to himself/Vader's mask about feeling the pull to the light side? I think they could have intentionally built that line to have a secret meaning for future films, but I don't think his intent is finish the Sith.

 

Okay you guys have me thinking....what if the light side of the force won't let him go far enough? Maybe he needs to get fully into the dark side in order to truly eliminate the Sith?

 

I have a personal theory about Han Solo's death. I don't think Kylo Ren kills his father. Every word related to Han and Kylo's meeting is very deliberate, and yet incredibly vague.

 

When Han and Leia first see each other in the film, Leia tells Han, "bring our son home". Meanwhile, Snoke tells Kylo Ren he must face his father, implying he must kill him.

 

Fast forward to the scene on the catwalk in Starkiller Base and Han calls out to Ben. He sincerely asks him to come home. Kylo responds by saying it's too late and Han says "No, it's not. Leave here with me. Come home. We miss you."

 

Then comes the two most important lines of the exchange: Kylo says, "I'm being torn apart. I want to be free of this pain. I know what I have to do but I don't know if I have the strength to do it. Will you help me?"

 

As he does this he is putting his light saber out in what the audience thinks is him surrendering his saber to return. As soon as Han touches the light saber, though, Kylo Ren holds tighter onto the saber to keep Han from actually taking it. Han then says, "Yes, anything."

 

It cuts to Rey and Finn looking from the balcony, and then it goes back to the two of them and the saber ignites into Han's chest.

 

My theory is that when Kylo tightens his grip onto the saber, Han understands what he really means by "will you help me". Kylo is asking Han to kill himself so that he doesn't have to kill him. Han knows that he isn't leaving alive. He will either ignite the saber himself, or allow his son to kill him, thus cementing his turn to the dark side and preventing him from ever bringing their son home to Leia. And so he decides to be the one who ignites the saber, thus killing himself. This protects a sliver of goodness in Kylo. He will always look back at that moment of selflessness by Han and see that he still believed in him and there is a path to turning back. This will always keep him from fully turning to the dark side, just like Vader couldn't kill his son and Luke couldn't kill Vader.

 

None of the lines in their exchange are solid evidence that Han killed himself or that Kylo killed him. They leave just enough ambiguity in the scene so that they can redraw the narrative in a future episode and then you can look back at the scene and realize what Kylo was asking his father to do.

 

Or maybe I'm wrong.

 

Also, a foreshadowing line was Han telling Kylo, "Snoke is using you for your power. When he gets what he wants, he'll crush you. You know it's true." We'll probably see this come to fruition in VIII or IX.

 

 

Hmmm, good theory. We're going to see it again tonight. I will look closer at that scene.

 

Ok, ryanlammi[/member] . As promised, we did see it again last night with well rested eyes and mind. Kylo absolutely killed Han. No doubt about it. So the initial theory is all but 100% a no go. Obviously though, as with any sci-fi type movie that holds on to the notion that you can hear sound in space might also find a way to disprove the scene in question. So who knows. Great theory, nonetheless.

I thought this movie was a bit of a mess.  Far and away the strongest aspect of this movie was the nostalgia-within-nostalgia -- we as viewers experienced nostalgia as the old characters themselves experience nostalgia.  I don't think there is anything at all like it in cinema history and I doubt it can happen again (except perhaps Spaceballs 2: The Farce Awakens).  It certainly wasn't planned back in 1983 that these actors would take a 30-year hiatus, which made this event very real.  Seeing these actors advance in age is something that can't be effectively CGI'd in, and it will be something quite remarkable for people to watch 50-100 years in the future.  That and the rather conspicuous advance of movie making techniques. 

 

Also disappointing was a limp use of audio.  The original movies of course had the quite brilliantly arranged (there's a lot going on with the chords and orchestration) main theme vs. Imperial March, a corollary for the movie's central concept.  With this thing they didn't even try to do anything creative with the audio.  It was low-drone SMASH low-drone SMASH just like every action movie out there.  Darth Vader's breathing is one of the iconic sounds in the history of cinema.  They couldn't come up with anything like that since they were so busy making the 422nd CGI explosion of the minute.  And telling the audio guy to throw in another low-drone SMASH.  The reggae playing the bar sounded like it was borrowed from a Chipotle.  Had none of the zing of the original oboe/clarinet thing from the original Star Wars movie and the band looked like they were phoning it in. 

 

I couldn't figure out what was going on during the second half of the movie or why I was supposed to care about Darth Vader 2.0 or Laura Croft.  Finn looked like he might work as a group leader at some Christian summer camp.  I could see him organizing dixie cups and cookies on a folding table. Then they finally get to Luke Skywalker, and his 30 seconds of acting kind of sucked.  I kind of wanted him to do the Icky Shuffle or maybe tell me the whole thing was a Geico commercial. 

 

As for visuals, I thought the opening silhouette of the star destroyer drifting across a moon was so wonderfully ominous and such a strong establishing shot.  But I wish it had been slower and that we had seen many other scenes drawn out with much, much simpler and slow-moving visuals.  I want to just watch somebody walk across the desert for about 3-5 minutes with that fantastic hulk of the wrecked star destroyer in the back.  Yes, I really like the pacing of 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

 

 

I got to say, I was highly disappointed.  I am a big Star Wars fans as most of you all are, and this one just didn't do it for me. 

 

My main beef is this: The original trilogy, it slowly builds up the characters, the drama, you are vested.  Luke trains as a Jedi over two shows, etc.

 

In this one, it's like bam! Rey has the force and can do whatever she wants.  Fin can deftly defend himself against Ren using a light saber when he has never used one in his life.  It's like where did they learn all this, out of thin air or through a book!?

 

Then, Ren is just this pitiful evil character.  He isn't intimidating at all in the slightest.  Then they have this super weird scene with Ren and Rey like staring each other down with the force which is honestly just kind of stupid.  Considering Ren is trained as a Jedi, he shouldn't have any issues with manipulating Rey.

 

Then the whole blow up the Death Star scene was exactly the same yet slightly different.

 

Honestly, I think the whole movie was "kiddified" for all the children to enjoy.  It had none of it's original charm and regurgitated everything from the original 3.  There was absolutely no development of characters and it jumped way too fast into turning Rey into a Jedi with no training.  It was just a silly movie.