Today's WSJ says the apartment boom is coming to a close with single-family construction now being favored.  The good news, if you're an apartment owner, is construction is slowing while occupancy is still high, so rents are not dropping.

 

While this may be a nationwide trend, it doesn't seem to have hit Cleveland yet.

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-housing-starts-dropped-in-july-1502886989

 

 

 

The self-service generation is changing everything we know about commercial real estate

http://www.rejournals.com/Articles/2017/09/24/The-self-service-generation-is-c

Today's WSJ says the apartment boom is coming to a close with single-family construction now being favored.  The good news, if you're an apartment owner, is construction is slowing while occupancy is still high, so rents are not dropping.

 

While this may be a nationwide trend, it doesn't seem to have hit Cleveland yet.

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-housing-starts-dropped-in-july-1502886989

 

 

 

 

In some markets that is true. In Dallas and Charlotte and Nashville for example rents have been flat or are decreasing because it was overbuilt. Columbus and Indianapolis had some overbuilding too and that has flattened things out at bit. In Cincinnati, the market has not reached equilibrium and it was slower to build. Rents are still rising here and there are opportunities for repositioning in the inner ring.

^ I agree with your analysis.  We will wait and see.

Fascinating

 

https://articles.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2017/09/new_book_from_tom_bier_can_tax.amp

 

 

 

The italicized portion is one of the most important truths in urban housing.

 

Yes. This. 66% of households in Akron have two or less people.

 

It's amazing how few public officials look at research like this. Tom Bier is to be commended for producing it.

http://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1003&context=msl_ae_ebooks

 

 

Per Tom Bier - of the million-plus residential structures in NE Ohio, only a small percentage are not the original structure on that parcel. Meaning - prior to their construction the land was a farm or in state of nature. Virtually no houses are built where a house used to stand. Yet, we continue to develop more and more land, even as our region shrinks (7% less people in NE Ohio than in 1970). The tax dollars spent on new pipes, new sewers, new streets, new freeway lanes, that we wouldn't otherwise need - staggering.

^ i downloaded this yesterday. I can't wait to read the whole thing. 

Cleveland-area house prices post 5.4% annual gain in latest Case-Shiller update. Closing gap w/ pre-recession peak (at 4% now). https://t.co/9ZnFR8pZqT

Annualized at one year, CLE ranked 14 out of 20, beating out NYC (5.15%) and Chicago (3.90%) and Washington (3.12%). #1 was Seattle at 12.9%, followed by #2 and #3 Las Vegas and San Diego at 9.01% and 8.17%, respectively. Interestingly, Detroit beat us at #10 at 6.94%.

Blight continues to be pulled outward by no-growth sprawl in Greater Cleveland. But this is a relatively new phenomenon -- the leapfrog to the core....

http://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/index.ssf/2018/01/tremont_median_home_price_tops.html

 

But are there any new members of the orange bloc that weren't there before?  Or are those basically the same districts that would have been orange in 2007?

I don't know for sure, but I would bet Lee-Miles, Euclid-Green and possibly Puritas-Longmead and North Collinwood.

^ I think this data could be a bit misleading because it is only looking at single family houses which sold during the rear.  If you look at the underlying data, the Central neighborhood's median sale price increased over 100% in a year.  Likely there was a new housing development that sold off some new housing. 

 

Nonetheless, these extremely low values are problematic for Cleveland.  Even "hot" neighborhoods have relatively low median sales prices. 

^ I think this data could be a bit misleading because it is only looking at single family houses which sold during the rear.  If you look at the underlying data, the Central neighborhood's median sale price increased over 100% in a year.  Likely there was a new housing development that sold off some new housing. 

 

Nonetheless, these extremely low values are problematic for Cleveland.  Even "hot" neighborhoods have relatively low median sales prices. 

 

The condo and townhome sale prices were much higher in the "hot" neighborhoods.  Ex: Detroit Shoreway's median condo sale was 248k.  That's much higher than its ever been. 

^ I'm not sure why they left townhomes/condos out of their analysis.  Regardless, those are some very low prices for single family homes.

Rich Exner tweeted that some new construction is missed in his report because of the way the county codes the sale transfer.  This could help explain the low median sales price for single family homes and condos in areas that are seeing new construction.

Why didn't the study simply include whatever codes those other sales used, too?  Was it just too hard to extract from the original data source, whatever that might be?  Seems like whatever those codes are, leaving them out is pretty serious.

Why didn't the study simply include whatever codes those other sales used, too?  Was it just too hard to extract from the original data source, whatever that might be?  Seems like whatever those codes are, leaving them out is pretty serious.

 

 

He said the issue falls on the county because they are actually miss coded.  Also, some fall through the cracks if they are not recorded in timely manner. 

I've worked with raw data like this in other jurisdictions and there's frequently a lag between the legal subdivision of a property (i.e., into condos) and inputting the change into the jurisdiction's lot level database, which is understandable. But that's only a problem if you're relying on a match of deed records to underlying lot records.  Often, the deed records themselves include some info about the property. For instance, in Cuyahoga county, arm's length transfers require the parties to submit a statement of value (for transfer tax calculations), which should indicate the property type: https://fiscalofficer.cuyahogacounty.us/pdf_fiscalofficer/en-US/DTE100RevAug2016.pdf  Not sure if the county doesn't include all this info in the deed records or if Cleveland.com just doesn't request or analyze it.

 

Also, while the deed records provide the most comprehensive set of conveyances, the MLS probably provides a batter record of conventional sales of habitable houses, which, depending on what you're trying to measure, is more relevant.

 

And finally, if what you're interested in is changes in house values, looking at the changes to medians is a flawed approach anyway, because it's sensitive to the composition of the flow.  The gold standard for understanding house value changes, if that's what you're after (and it not always is), is a repeat sales index. That's what Case Schiller is. Unfortunately, it requires a pretty big population to be meaningful, so wouldn't work for Cleveland's neighborhoods (which are small).

Blight continues to be pulled outward by no-growth sprawl in Greater Cleveland. But this is a relatively new phenomenon -- the leapfrog to the core....

http://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/index.ssf/2018/01/tremont_median_home_price_tops.html

 

 

Nice to see some more ''green'' around the city, especially in the Kamms and Central areas.

Any predictions on which neighborhood will be the next to turn green? I think it could take a while, but Cudell seems logistically like it could be the next to make a jump.  I wouldn't be surprised if it were Brooklyn Centre or Clark-Fulton either. 

Blight continues to be pulled outward by no-growth sprawl in Greater Cleveland. But this is a relatively new phenomenon -- the leapfrog to the core....

http://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/index.ssf/2018/01/tremont_median_home_price_tops.html

 

**THE MAP**

 

Question about the map: What makes Kamm's Corner the 2nd highest valued single-family neighborhood in Cleveland?  I would've thought it'd have been Edgewater, Ohio City, or Detroit-Shoreway.  Are there a lot of city/government workers living there?  "Stable" family neighborhood?  I've been to Kamm's Corner quite a few times and while it's fine, I didn't think of it as having a more stable environment as, say, Detroit-Shoreway and certainly not like Edgewater.

Kamms has historically been home to CPD CFP and other city workers especially when there were residency requirements for employees. I'd say Kamms is stable because the housing is newer and there is more a "suburban" vibe in the area.

Kamms has historically been home to CPD CFP and other city workers especially when there were residency requirements for employees. I'd say Kamms is stable because the housing is newer and there is more a "suburban" vibe in the area.

 

Makes sense.  In Dayton, similar city-border neighborhoods that look more suburban but have loads of city workers and police bring up the average income.  I admit I was surprised to see it higher than Edgewater, though.

Kamms has historically been home to CPD CFP and other city workers especially when there were residency requirements for employees. I'd say Kamms is stable because the housing is newer and there is more a "suburban" vibe in the area.

 

I'm not sure if the "vibe" is more suburban, but the housing stock has certainly been better-maintained than other areas of the city. 

^^ Edgewater has very large homes along the lake but further south is more modest homes.  I also doubt that many of the large homes are sold in a given year making them statistically meaningless in a median price calculation.

Blight continues to be pulled outward by no-growth sprawl in Greater Cleveland. But this is a relatively new phenomenon -- the leapfrog to the core....

http://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/index.ssf/2018/01/tremont_median_home_price_tops.html

 

**THE MAP**

I've been to Kamm's Corner quite a few times and while it's fine, I didn't think of it as having a more stable environment as, say, Detroit-Shoreway and certainly not like Edgewater.

 

I always viewed Kamm's Corners as little like the bizarro conservative version of Coventry in Cleveland Heights.

 

Prediction: West Blvd will see significant reinvestment in the next few years. Appears to have a lot of not-too-fancy-but good housing stock there, just waiting for some tlc.

Kamm's Corners is the largest contiguous nice area in the city, and it's the neighborhood furthest west.

 

Tremont has been building units at $300k and up for at least a decade.  No surprise there.  But Central is an odd arrangement, since it is (and always has been) the city's epicenter of poverty.  We just built hundreds of new single-family homes there, with setbacks and garages and everything, just like it's a suburb.  Block after block of nothing but that.  There's a plaza with a grocery on 40th, so at least the area right by that plaza isn't a food desert, but Central's commercial corridors are otherwise barren and walkability is minimal.  Most of Central's residents are still living in public housing without cars.  Is this development pattern supposed to help them?  And how long are all those houses expected to remain above $100k?

Blight continues to be pulled outward by no-growth sprawl in Greater Cleveland. But this is a relatively new phenomenon -- the leapfrog to the core....

http://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/index.ssf/2018/01/tremont_median_home_price_tops.html

 

**THE MAP**

I've been to Kamm's Corner quite a few times and while it's fine, I didn't think of it as having a more stable environment as, say, Detroit-Shoreway and certainly not like Edgewater.

 

I always viewed Kamm's Corners as little like the bizarro conservative version of Coventry in Cleveland Heights.

 

Prediction: West Blvd will see significant reinvestment in the next few years. Appears to have a lot of not-too-fancy-but good housing stock there, just waiting for some tlc.

 

Kamms takes a lot of hits for being ''bizarro conservative'' but it's the last bastion of middle class Cleveland, despite the city lifting the residency requirement.  It's not what it once was as some crime that never happened there is happening now but to see the property values increasing there is a relief.  The area is not as locals-oriented as it once was and the bars/restaurants on Lorain Avenue section now attract people from the CLE region (spending $ in Cleveland).

 

Nothing wrong with a ''bizarro conservative'' neighborhood as you describe it as the area is keeping taxpayers in the city and being typical ''bizarro conservatives'', the residents invest in their homes (stable housing stock) and community, adding to the city's tax base. 

Kamms has historically been home to CPD CFP and other city workers especially when there were residency requirements for employees. I'd say Kamms is stable because the housing is newer and there is more a "suburban" vibe in the area.

 

I'm not sure if the "vibe" is more suburban, but the housing stock has certainly been better-maintained than other areas of the city.

 

My opinion is based on the predominance of single family homes that remind me of early suburbs just beyond street car suburbs.  I don't mean suburban in negative manner at all.  I would live in Kamms in a heartbeat.

Keep in mind the median sales price excludes condos, townhomes and even some single family new builds.  From the article:

 

"In neighborhoods where there were at least 25 sales, the median prices for condos were $248,000 in Detroit-Shoreway, $208,250 in Ohio City, $204,000 downtown, and $88,500 in Buckeye-Shaker".

Interesting study....low-cost Midwest/Northeast cities performed pretty well. Youngstown ranked 9th-most popular in the USA! Columbus was 15th, Cleveland 20th, Cincinnati 22nd, Dayton 26th, and Toledo 33rd out of 100 cities ranked.

 

A press release posted at:

https://www.lendingtree.com/home/most-popular-cities-millennial-homebuyers/

 

LendingTree Ranks Most Popular Cities for Millennial Homebuyers

TENDAYI KAPFIDZE

March 20th, 2018

 

Millennials in Des Moines, Pittsburgh and Buffalo are pursuing homeownership more than their counterparts in any of the nation’s 100 largest cities, according to a new study by LendingTree, the nation’s leading online loan marketplace. These young homebuyers are at the forefront of a slowly but surely increasing number of young buyers returning to the housing market. The largest single-age population in the U.S. is 27 year olds at almost 4.8 million, suggesting that millennials’ influence on the housing market has years to run before it peaks.

 

LendingTree analyzed mortgage requests and offers for borrowers ages 35 years and under between Feb. 1, 2017 and Feb. 1, 2018, along with requests from the total population of mortgage-seekers based on the location of the property to be mortgaged. The city rankings are generated from the percentage of total purchase mortgage requests received by LendingTree from borrowers in the millennial generation.

 

Most popular cities among millennial homebuyers

#1 Des Moines, Iowa

Share of purchase mortgage requests coming from millennials: 42.4%

Average loan amount: $141,785

 

#2 Pittsburgh, Pa.

Share of purchase mortgage requests coming from millennials: 41.9%

Average loan amount: $120,093

 

#3 Buffalo, N.Y.

Share of purchase mortgage requests coming from millennials: 40.5%

Average loan amount: $114,087

 

 

Other findings

Millennial homebuyers make up one-third of mortgage requests. 32.5% of all mortgage requests through LendingTree between Feb. 1, 2017 and Feb. 1, 2018 come from consumers 35 years and younger. The average loan amount requested from this age group is $166,863.

 

Where millennials aren’t vying for homeownership. At the other end of the scale, Sarasota, Fla., Fort Myers Fla. and Honolulu had lowest shares of millennial buyers at 17.9%, 19.8% and 21.8% respectively. The Florida communities are popular with retirees while Honolulu is a high-cost metro, which makes it challenging for millennial buyers who are just starting out on building financial and real assets.

 

 

Our study also looked at other borrower characteristics and we found some interesting results on the average age of the borrowers and their credit scores.

 

Highest average age

San Francisco, San Diego, New York and Los Angeles made the top four cities with the highest average age for millennial homebuyers, all at 29.5 years and above. These cities also have the highest down payments, and the age of millennial homebuyers here reflects the long lead time needed to save for a down payment. San Francisco leads with a down payment of $96,045, which is higher than the average loan for borrowers in the least expensive city, Youngstown, Ohio, at $93,792.

 

Lowest average age

Millennials can get on the real estate ladder quickest in Charleston, W.Va., where the average buyer under 35 is 28.2 years old. Borrowers there need to raise an average of $11,942 for their down payment and borrow $102,394. Rounding out the five cities with lowest average ages are Youngstown, Ohio, Knoxville, Tenn., Fort Wayne, Ind. and Springfield, Mo. These cities all feature down payments and loan amounts that are well below average.

 

Highest credit scores

San Francisco comes out on top again as millennials there had an average credit score of 691, not surprising given that they are borrowed an average of $462,724 to fund their dream homes. Likewise, in Honolulu, where millennials averaged a 684 credit score to borrow $407,641. The other top cities were San Diego, New York and Denver.

 

Lowest credit scores

Jackson, Miss. was the most accessible for millennials with lower credit scores at an average of 608. Millennials can often have low scores because of not having a long history of credit, so for prospective buyers it’s encouraging that there are cities where lower score borrowers can access the mortgage market. Other such markets were Charleston, W.Va., Fayetteville, N.C., Youngstown, Ohio and Mobile, Ala.

 

What should millennial buyers do?

The biggest challenges for millennial homebuyers are having funds for a down payment and a good credit history. Potential buyers should educate themselves on how to improve their credit scores and create a savings plan to raise the down payment.

 

From a housing market perspective, tight inventory is boosting prices in many markets and millennial homebuyers must now contend with rising mortgage interest rates reducing their buying power. As affordability declines, borrowers should consider all the programs available to assist them in becoming homeowners, such as FHA loans.

 

 

hhm so its true as a have heard that pittsburgh is a-boomin with the millenial move in buyers.

So this tells us which cities are cheap and which ones only old people like.

So this tells us which cities are cheap and which ones only old people like.

 

Ha. Well, for this list “most popular” certainly doesn’t  equal “most desired,” but that’s not to say it’s not good, useful information.

Those markets that appeal to millenials are also most affordable for the most part.

 

One thing that is starting to show is that no longer is it required to live on the coasts to be near top flight jobs as there is a lot that can be done remotely and much more telecommuting work. Therefore, you will be seeing a lot more mobile younger people who do not necessarily want to be tied down to a big coastal city and find a better more affordable quality of life as they get older.

 

I had a conversation with an exec in his mid-30s the other month. He moved to Cincinnati from Chicago 3 years ago and said he never thought you could grow a business to a high level without having the contacts in a secondary market (outside of Chicago, NYC, LA, SF, Houston, Dallas, Atlanta, DC, Philly, Boston or Seattle) now he sees that this is not only possible but actually easier to do with a much better quality of life in a city like Cincinnati or Cleveland than it is in Chicago or NY

I find it odd that people on Twitter and elsewhere on the net are so committed to living in expensive cities when we have the same internet everywhere.  If you're going to spend most of your life not looking up from your phone, why not do it in a place that is less expensive?

 

The dilemma for Ohio's small cities is that the 3C's aren't much more expensive.  So anyone moving here to get away from high housing costs will be fine with the housing costs in the bigger cities and won't go rough it in Youngstown, Middletown, etc., because houses are even cheaper than cheap. 

They aren't looking at their phones all the time. The in-person networking, and socializing, opportunities of expensive cities are clearly worth it to them. All those restaurants, coffee shops, meetups, and conferences in expensive cities are where the most important connections are made, not online.

Those markets that appeal to millenials are also most affordable for the most part.

 

One thing that is starting to show is that no longer is it required to live on the coasts to be near top flight jobs as there is a lot that can be done remotely and much more telecommuting work.

 

Note that "most popular for Millennial home buyers" is not the same as "most popular for Millennials."

 

Millennials might still very much want to spend some expensive years living in NYC, SanFran, Chicago, etc. even if they have to rent.  And of course there aren't very many Millennials moving to Manhattan and buying residential real estate there.  Heck, there aren't even that many partners at major Manhattan law firms that can pull that off.

^It's not even a meaningful look at where Millenials buy homes. I.e., many more Millenials buy homes in NYC than in Youngstown.  This fast and loose with denominator game is rampant with these lists (and with electoral analysis). A more accurate headline would be "Top 10 Cities by share of home sales to Millenials".

USA Today puff piece on "hot" housing market:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2018/04/05/home-buying-market-so-brutal-some-home-buyers-make-offer-sight-unseen/467173002/

 

Yeah, it's hot if you want to buy a house in the usual suspects.  Not so hot in Middletown or Mansfield. 

 

The people buying the $400k+ home in Las Vegas will be slaves to their house.  People like that won't be able to retire because they stubbornly refuse to move to cheaper markets or buy smaller homes in the cities where they live. 

I wouldn't say Ohio is completely immune to this.  At the very least, a friend of mine put in an at-asking-price offer on a house in West Akron (not exactly Vegas) less than a week ago and was outbid.  I don't think the house was on the market long at all.  That's at least a subtle signal of some bubbliness in our housing markets here, too, though of course not like Vegas.

Yeah, it's hot if you want to buy a house in the usual suspects.  Not so hot in Middletown or Mansfield. 

 

There's good availability and weakness in the upper brackets around Washington DC; the thinking is the tax package has hastened plans of retired folks to move to a friendlier and maybe warmer tax climate. The RE people are hoping this is just a one-time bump in supply.

I found this article interesting. The speculation made by the author seems pretty logical to me, especially the part about ex-urban eventually moving back into a more rual/agricultural role.

 

https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2018/4/4/the-big-theory-on-american-urban-development

Some good conversation over in this thread at SkyscraperPage:

 

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=232731

Coastal unaffordablility may push people into affordable Midwest markets. Interesting tweets from mjarboe[/member] today. Here are a few....

 

 

Homebuilding still below where it needs to be, @Redfin’s Marr says, and new houses are pricier due to labor shortages, high costs of construction materials, regulatory factors, etc. Starter market is really left out in the cold. #NAREE18

 

Amid affordability crunch, migration can provide opportunities for people to attain homeownership, build wealth, @Redfin’s Marr says. He’s studied online search patterns to look at where people want to move/are moving. Households increasingly leaving priciest metros. #NAREE18

 

We're starting to see signs that recent growth in rental demand actually is ebbing, says Chris Herbert of @Harvard_JCHS during update on the state of the nation's housing market. #NAREE18

 

Recent rental-market easing is largely at the high end. @Harvard_JCHS's Herbert describes current multifamily market conditions as more of a plateau, rather than a falloff. Demand slowing against backdrop of pretty big pipeline of construction, though. #NAREE18

 

House prices outpacing incomes by a lot. Makes bigger hurdles not only of monthly payments but also of down payments, Herbert says. In #CLE area, price-to-income ratio is two to three times (and has been for decades), versus five times or more in hot, coastal markets. #NAREE18

 

The homebuilding recovery has been fueled by larger, costlier homes. Not smaller, more affordable homes. And we're not building condos or manufactured housing, Herbert points out. #NAREE18

 

National housing inventory hasn't been this tight since 1982, Herbert says. In some markets, stats from various real estate data companies show only two months' worth of supply. #NAREE18

 

Nationally, nearly half of renter households and a quarter of owner householders are cost-burdened - paying too much of their income for housing, Herbert says. #NAREE18 Affordability is BOTH an income problem and a housing-cost problem, he notes.

 

Some local context: In #CLE, 35.2% of renter households and 10.9% of owner households are considered "severely cost-burdened," based on number-crunching of 2016 data by @EnterpriseNow. In Cuyahoga County, 29.2% of renter HHs and 7.9% of owner HHs fall into that bucket. #NAREE18

 

The homebuilding recovery has been fueled by larger, costlier homes. Not smaller, more affordable homes. And we're not building condos or manufactured housing, Herbert points out. #NAREE18

 

I've been wondering if this were just a local thing or nationwide.  In the greater Akron area, people are still building surprising numbers of large, exurban homes.  The side of Medina County closer to Akron (so eastern Medina County) has surprising numbers of new builds still.  I just bought some used toys for my kids from a guy in a 6500sf almost-new house with a 5-car garage out by Medina Line Road, in a development that still has a huge number of "ready-to-build" lots.  (In the city, we'd call them "vacant lots.")  Somehow, people are able to find the budgets for surprising numbers of $1M+ houses in Summit and Medina Counties.  I didn't think we had that many executive-level earners here.  I'm kind of wondering what the odds are of a bubble popping that would let me pick up one of those gorgeous places for far less than its construction cost, but of course, that would mean moving way out into the sprawlburbs where I don't actually want to live.

^Yeah I think what's amazing about the infill in Cincinnati is the sheer number of $500-700k homes.  These are tear downs or wedged on precarious hillside lots.  I couldn't tell you what is going on out in the corn fields but houses that just plain make you chuckle are going up all over the east side of the city.

 

Meanwhile, there aren't any sub-$100k 3-bedroom move-in ready homes left anywhere in the area except for C-D quality neighborhoods.  The prevailing price for a 1930s Cape Cod with a new kitchen in a B-quality neighborhood is $150k.  I'm talking about Deer Park, Silverton, etc.  The sheer volume of flipping in Norwood is moving that are from C to B and in ten years it could be the equal of Oakley.     

 

 

Everyone I know living in those eastern Medina developments is a retiree with a sweet pension.  So, not sustainable.  It's the last vestige of the old economy.

Note the east side/west side differences in Cuyahoga County. As I noted in my blog posting, the east side of Cleveland is a mess except for University Circle and its immediate surrounding areas....

 

ICYMI: Findings from @CuyahogaCounty's six-year real estate reappraisal are out, and home values are up 10.8% on average. Details on residential and #CRE valuations here: https://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2018/07/cuyahoga_county_home_values_ri_1.html … via @CourtneyAstolfi

 

A larger version of this graphic (and others, including the strong growth in commercial values countywide) is available at the link above

I would love to see the neighborhood breakdown map of Cleveland. They're out there, but its my understanding they were only given to the relevant people in their cities. If anyone on here in Cleveland has access to it, please share! I'm interested to see how much of the 3% increase on the east side is from Downtown/Midtown/UC, and what kind of decline was seen in the other neighborhoods.

 

I think this reappraisal is pretty accurate. In South Euclid at least, the numbers they are giving to us corresponds to the work we've done and the results we've seen. Of course, many people are disappointed/upset with the increases. If you ask me though, the valuations they had previously were artificially low. Many of the previously granted revisions where values were lowered to ridiculous levels were corrected. There was no reason a fully rehabbed bungalow where the owner was getting $1300 a month in rent should have been valued at $5000. Yet we had many examples of that, because basically every appeal made was grated. I believe now the County has wised up to it and we won't be seeing that as much now.