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A lack of housing inventory will do this. So might a growing population...

 

 

"In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck

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Interesting that four Ohio metros were either in the hottest housing markets or the most improved housing markets in the country, with Cleveland the most improved....

 

 

https://www.realtor.com/research/february-2019-hottest-housing-markets/

"In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck

Almost nothing move-in ready remains in Cincinnati for under $110-120k, including 2-bed 1-bath homes.  So a doubling of prices for small homes in undesirable neighborhoods since about 2016.   

  • Author
35 minutes ago, Lucas_uLsac said:

 

Anyone know what's up with Canton???

 

Natural gas/fracking economy? 

 

EDIT: there has been a small economic uptick in the past year after several years of job losses. But I see how it's caused that much of a noticeable difference....

https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/SMU39159400000000001?amp%3bdata_tool=XGtable&output_view=data&include_graphs=true

Edited by KJP

"In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck

19 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Natural gas/fracking economy? 

 

EDIT: there has been a small economic uptick in the past year after several years of job losses. But I see how it's caused that much of a noticeable difference....

https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/SMU39159400000000001?amp%3bdata_tool=XGtable&output_view=data&include_graphs=true

 

I guess that could be part of it. ONG is typically associated with boom and bust cycles. I thought that fracking was slowing down though in Eastern Ohio? 

  • Author
19 hours ago, Lucas_uLsac said:

 

I guess that could be part of it. ONG is typically associated with boom and bust cycles. I thought that fracking was slowing down though in Eastern Ohio? 

 

I thought so too, especially with low oil and gas prices. But I have no other explanation.

"In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck

I wouldn't lose the forest for the trees here- that list says the median list price in Canton was only $142K. 

19 minutes ago, StapHanger said:

I wouldn't lose the forest for the trees here- that list says the median list price in Canton was only $142K. 

 

This is Canton we're talking about. The fact that there's a pulse at all here is pretty astounding. 

  • 2 weeks later...
  • Author

 

"In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck

19 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Those McMansions and tract homes are holding up as much as suburbanites who bought in the late 90s and 2000s.  Seems younger buyers want more managable sized homes in neighborhoods that are "tight knit" and have lots of amenities.  Close to business core, good transportation, good/improving schools, good basic shopping

  • 4 weeks later...
  • Author

What a coincidence! I've just started a cash-for-condos company (ahem, Prendergast Real Estate LLC) to flip outdated condos the Cleveland area. I'm working on one Lakewood project, about to start another Lakewood project next month, and I have two more potential projects (in Rocky River and yet another in Lakewood). I don't flip any properties where the roof, basement or yard are the sole responsibilities of the homeowner. I'm just trying to keep it simple, inexpensive and relatively quick. And even with those exclusions, I'm finding a lot business in a short period of time. The market is good and a lot of older people are moving in to assisted living/nursing homes. They or their POAs need cash quickly, don't want the delays of realtor/inspections and their condos are invariably in need of updating. So this article speaks to some of things I'm discovering as I dip my toes into this growing market that's likely to stay strong for a long time as the Boomers age and move into retirement homes.....

 

 

"In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck

  • Author

Need more inventory!! Especially middle-market inventory....

 

 

"In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck

18 hours ago, KJP said:

What a coincidence! I've just started a cash-for-condos company (ahem, Prendergast Real Estate LLC) to flip outdated condos the Cleveland area. I'm working on one Lakewood project, about to start another Lakewood project next month, and I have two more potential projects (in Rocky River and yet another in Lakewood). I don't flip any properties where the roof, basement or yard are the sole responsibilities of the homeowner. I'm just trying to keep it simple, inexpensive and relatively quick. And even with those exclusions, I'm finding a lot business in a short period of time. The market is good and a lot of older people are moving in to assisted living/nursing homes. They or their POAs need cash quickly, don't want the delays of realtor/inspections and their condos are invariably in need of updating. So this article speaks to some of things I'm discovering as I dip my toes into this growing market that's likely to stay strong for a long time as the Boomers age and move into retirement homes.....

 

 

Good luck.  Remember, if you're flipping, do not get emotionally attached to any property.  Think of them as cash, get in and get out.    Remember they wont all sell, you may have to rent before sale.

Each house is a marathon, not a sprint.

  • Author
3 hours ago, MyTwoSense said:

Good luck.  Remember, if you're flipping, do not get emotionally attached to any property.  Think of them as cash, get in and get out.    Remember they wont all sell, you may have to rent before sale.

Each house is a marathon, not a sprint.

 

My wife is pretty good at telling me to not spend for the gold-plated extras. Most of the buildings in which I buy condos do not allow them to be rented except to direct relatives (parents or children). And I may not have to put these on the market anyway. I'm working with a realtor friend of mine as part of my endeavor.

"In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck

3 hours ago, KJP said:

 I'm working with a realtor friend of mine as part of my endeavor.

 

A developer friend of mine says that is the BEST way to get started - partner with somebody experienced.

Remember: It's the Year of the Snake

29 minutes ago, Dougal said:

 

A developer friend of mine says that is the BEST way to get started - partner with somebody experienced.

 

The best way is to lose a bunch of money on your first "deal".  That way you actually learn the stuff viscerally. 

  • Author
1 hour ago, Dougal said:

 

A developer friend of mine says that is the BEST way to get started - partner with somebody experienced.

 

He's helping me find contractors as well as clients. But I found one contractor through a friend of my wife's. He's VERY affordable and does quality work. He's Russian and hasn't discovered how much he's under-charging me.  Anyway, to stay on topic, I figured it was a good time to try this considering how good the real estate market in Lakewood and the West Shore suburbs is right now.

"In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck

10 hours ago, KJP said:

 

He's helping me find contractors as well as clients. But I found one contractor through a friend of my wife's. He's VERY affordable and does quality work. He's Russian and hasn't discovered how much he's under-charging me.  Anyway, to stay on topic, I figured it was a good time to try this considering how good the real estate market in Lakewood and the West Shore suburbs is right now.

 

You're already a cut throat developer! ??

  • 3 months later...
  • 3 weeks later...

Geez Lakewood....that's some impressive % gain:

 

Lakewood’s remarkable recovery in home sale prices, a Cuyahoga County leader

Today 6:37 AM

By Rich Exner, cleveland.com

 

The median price for single-family homes of $196,000 in Lakewood over the first seven months this year was up 52% from just $129,000 during the same period in 2014.

 

“This new push with a lot of people wanting to live in walkable neighborhoods is driving this. I refer to Lakewood as the West Side Cleveland Heights. But it’s easier to get to,” said Pereksta, an agent in Howard Hanna’s Lakewood office.

 

With an estimated 50,100 people packed into 5.5 square miles, Lakewood is Ohio’s most densely populated city. The main commercial streets of Madison and Detroit avenues stretch the length of the town, meaning no one lives more than a few blocks from a place to grab a drink or a bite to eat.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/2019/08/lakewoods-remarkable-recovery-in-home-sale-prices-a-cuyahoga-county-leader.html

 

Edited by MuRrAy HiLL

  • Author

It's why there's so many development plans are popping up, including in the Gold Goast where there's been no new construction in 45 years.

"In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck

21 minutes ago, KJP said:

It's why there's so many development plans are popping up, including in the Gold Goast where there's been no new construction in 45 years.

I would like to see some of the green grass in front of the high rises along Lake and/or Edgewater developed. 

  • Author
3 minutes ago, freefourur said:

I would like to see some of the green grass in front of the high rises along Lake and/or Edgewater developed. 

 

It's a different zoning classification, however. The zoning east of the west side of Cove and north of the south side of Clifton are high-density-multifamily. There are two properties owned by the same guy that are for sale. ?

"In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck

  • Author

 

"In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck

  • 1 month later...

Hey, friends.

 

I'm doing a small project for work and am looking for information regarding the types of incentives cities provide to builders of single/multi-family homes in and around the Cleveland area.

 

Most cities use the CRA tool and a few offer landbanked parcels at a significant discount. Shaker Heights ahs some design assistance. And, of course, there is the student loan assistance program from the amazing village of Newburgh Heights (technically offered to folks purchasing homes, but it can be used for those that build as well.)

 

What other types of incentives do some cities offer?

South Euclid has a landbank that will offer vacant land for below market rates. We also offer tax abatement on new construction - 5 years, 75% for single family homes, and the potential for more on multi-family decided case-by-case by City Council. While its not an official policy, the Housing Department has information and offers review of plans for developers who want to ensure a speedy journey through design, plan, and zoning reviews.  Also, not sure if your research is looking at support for rehabs, but through One South Euclid we also offers vacant properties for sale below market rates to developers to be rehabbed and sold to owner occupants. https://www.onesoutheuclid.org/buildgrowthrive/

  • Author

 

"In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck

  • 3 weeks later...
  • Author

 

"In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck

Quote

Often, traditional banks won’t grant a loan, based on the borrower’s credit score or debt-to-income ratio.

 

Gee, I wonder why.  

 

People who can barely afford to buy a home shouldn't buy one.  They don't have any cash to pay for repairs.  

  • 1 month later...
  • Author

 

"In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck

The one's I have been seeing are good, though working for South Euclid, I speak mostly on what is going on in that city. Foreclosure/bank/sheriff sales are all down dramatically. Most of the arms length sales now (and for the last couple of years) are either from older/elderly homeowners either downsizing or passing away, or people selling off their rental properties. People who moved but were unable to sell their houses after the recession, and thus rented them out instead, have been selling. Other people who bought houses on the cheap as investment properties at the same time are also selling, now that prices have increased so much. The vast majority of these houses have sold to owner occupants, usually millennials and young families, or to rehabbers who flip them. Some, but not many sell to other investors who continue to rent them out. This is starting to have an effect on the rental market though. We are on track this year to have 6% less total rental units this year compared to last year, which is consistent with the annual decreases we had in the last two years since I started tracking it. Meanwhile, units which remain rentals have been seeing more investment, and rising rents.

 

We know the same thing has been happening in Lakewood, and I'm sure its being seen in other inner suburbs as well. This is one reason why I don't think there will be any slowdown in demand for all of the new apartments being built, particularly in Cleveland. The rental market is shrinking elsewhere.

  • 2 weeks later...
  • 3 weeks later...
  • Author

Residential real estate players flip for Cleveland
 

TheCenterSquare.com reports that "property owners in the Cleveland metropolitan statistical area who purchased homes or condos and turned them around for quick sale in the third quarter of 2019 were, on average, able to more than double the price initially paid."

 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/scott-suttell-blog/residential-real-estate-players-flip-cleveland

"In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck

All the equity lost to the pockets of real estate vultures instead of homeowners.....

What I've seen from home buyers, particularly first time home buyers, is that they do not want to spend the time and resources rehabbing a house. They would much rather pay more for a house that has been flipped and is move in ready. I've seen closings delayed because the buyer would rather wait than do it themselves. The only ones buying and rehabbing houses are these flippers. The homeowners simply are not. I'd much rather see these vultures make a profit than see the true vultures not fix up these houses and instead prey on renters by offering a sub-par product, because that's really the only other option.

^we live in extravagant times.  There was no such thing as a "fixed up" house when I grew up.  Tons of my friends lived in 50+ year-old houses that were almost 100% original.  Some people didn't have dishwashers, air conditioning, etc.  Some people had washing machines but still dried their clothes on lines.    

I'd love to find a house that's lived in but just needs a bit of work here and there.  Unfortunately the only options seem to be overpriced crap flip jobs, or a dumpster fire that needs a total gut rehab.  That can easily take a year while you need to live and pay rent somewhere else, whereas remodeling a bathroom or even the kitchen along with some cosmetic updates around the rest of the house can be done piecemeal while you live there.  There's just not much middle ground.  So between those choices the flip is much less hassle, but then you have to pay for that profit margin too, and you settle for what they picked.  

3 hours ago, PoshSteve said:

What I've seen from home buyers, particularly first time home buyers, is that they do not want to spend the time and resources rehabbing a house. They would much rather pay more for a house that has been flipped and is move in ready. I've seen closings delayed because the buyer would rather wait than do it themselves. The only ones buying and rehabbing houses are these flippers. The homeowners simply are not. I'd much rather see these vultures make a profit than see the true vultures not fix up these houses and instead prey on renters by offering a sub-par product, because that's really the only other option.

 

Yeah I'm friends with people who do it on the side as a hobby and some who are full time flippers.  The ones I know are great guys who are meeting a need!  Their investment of money and resources have helped turn neighborhoods around by flipping these houses so people will move into them.  Now I'm sure there are bad ones out there but the ones I know are not.  They are doing on a very small scale in neighborhoods what is being done downtown with the historic renovation tax credits.  It's cool seeing the before and after of the houses they've renovated and how one house at a time they are transforming streets, blocks, and neighborhoods.

4 hours ago, PoshSteve said:

What I've seen from home buyers, particularly first time home buyers, is that they do not want to spend the time and resources rehabbing a house. They would much rather pay more for a house that has been flipped and is move in ready. I've seen closings delayed because the buyer would rather wait than do it themselves. The only ones buying and rehabbing houses are these flippers. The homeowners simply are not. I'd much rather see these vultures make a profit than see the true vultures not fix up these houses and instead prey on renters by offering a sub-par product, because that's really the only other option.

 

A lot of people don't know how to do that stuff anymore. It went from houses staying mostly original and/or having some amenities done professionally (kitchens, bathrooms) pre-'90s to individuals grabbing hammers and remodeling everything in the '90s-'00s to people not knowing how to work on things in the 2010s from growing up gaming and surfing the 'net all the time. That's how you run into so many generic flips.

5 hours ago, PoshSteve said:

What I've seen from home buyers, particularly first time home buyers, is that they do not want to spend the time and resources rehabbing a house. They would much rather pay more for a house that has been flipped and is move in ready. I've seen closings delayed because the buyer would rather wait than do it themselves. The only ones buying and rehabbing houses are these flippers. The homeowners simply are not. I'd much rather see these vultures make a profit than see the true vultures not fix up these houses and instead prey on renters by offering a sub-par product, because that's really the only other option.

 

When I hear the term "flipper", I'm not thinking of people who are doing true renovations/restoration/modernization of houses- that stuff is expensive and not wildly profitable.  "Flipper" usually means someone who's buying distressed properties, slapping some paint, new carpet, or maybe a new porch floor onto it, and selling it for way more than they put into it.  If the people you know are doing real foundation work, electrical or mechanical upgrades, reworking floorplans to meet modern housing preferences, or other unglamorous but necessary stuff then they are the exception, not the rule.

2 hours ago, jjakucyk said:

I'd love to find a house that's lived in but just needs a bit of work here and there.  Unfortunately the only options seem to be overpriced crap flip jobs, or a dumpster fire that needs a total gut rehab.  That can easily take a year while you need to live and pay rent somewhere else, whereas remodeling a bathroom or even the kitchen along with some cosmetic updates around the rest of the house can be done piecemeal while you live there.  There's just not much middle ground.  So between those choices the flip is much less hassle, but then you have to pay for that profit margin too, and you settle for what they picked.  

 

Another issue that causes this was obviously the suburban flight of the 20th century's second half. The parts of town people want to live in today are where people didn't want to but had to live for a long time. That often meant lots of turnover, crummy landlords, poor tenants and therefore much more wear and tear than buying the coveted old person's house that had seen little change. So many houses in now-desirable parts of town were clearly used for indoor dog breeding until only a few years ago.

  • Author

I'm a flipper. I buy condos only (no houses) that were owned by elderly residents who haven't updated their homes in years if not decades. The families are happy to get rid of them because they have other things to worry about like getting their family members into assisted living. So I take the condos off their hands, update the condos and resell them at market rates. In some cases my selling prices are less than market rate.

"In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck

2 hours ago, X said:

 

When I hear the term "flipper", I'm not thinking of people who are doing true renovations/restoration/modernization of houses- that stuff is expensive and not wildly profitable.  "Flipper" usually means someone who's buying distressed properties, slapping some paint, new carpet, or maybe a new porch floor onto it, and selling it for way more than they put into it.  If the people you know are doing real foundation work, electrical or mechanical upgrades, reworking floorplans to meet modern housing preferences, or other unglamorous but necessary stuff then they are the exception, not the rule.

 

That's true for more desirable neighborhoods.  Mt. Adams was and I think still is a classic example, wherein you have a choice between a slipshod paint job with new carpet, or a $3M custom build, and nothing in between.  However, in more up-and-coming neighborhoods, a coat of paint won't do when the place has been let go for so long.  Flippers in those markets aren't buying houses that need structural repair or major utility work.  They're buying the house that was stripped of copper and fixtures after grandma died 10 years ago and was left to deteriorate while the family argued over the inheritance.  They finally sell for $70K, the flipper then slaps 1/4" drywall over all the old plaster after rewiring and new plastic piping, replaces the doors with hollow-core Lowe's specials, just paints over all the old trim, puts down "wood-look" vinyl over the beat up hardwood floors (this one makes me super sad), paints the exterior, installs a new furnace, new Ikea kitchen and baths, and then lists it for $199K after spending $80K on the reno.  Call it flip+ if you want, but it leads to houses that look nice in the real estate listings, but really don't hold up to any level of scrutiny.  This isn't a true renovation either, it's kind of a halfway step.  I'm working on a full gut remodel of a small 2-bedroom house in Newport, and that's looking to be a $250-300K job even with pretty basic fixtures, finishes, and barely any exterior modifications. 

Edited by jjakucyk

8 hours ago, Terdolph said:

Do I hear banjo music?

 

The west side of Cincinnati is loaded with intact, unflipped 1920s-1970s homes.  This one is from 1955 and is within walking distance of the house I lived in ages 5-10 with pretty much everything in place.  In fact this is my old little league coach's house...I don't clearly remember being in it but I might have if he had an end-of-season party there. 

https://www.sibcycline.com/Listing/CIN/1645549/3446-Blue-Rock-Rd-White-Oak-OH-45239

 

It's easy to imagine one of those home improvement shows hacking away at this perfectly functional kitchen and bathroom.  $20,000 for a new kitchen and $15,000 for a new bathroom just so you can impress people you don't like on Instagram. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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17 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

The west side of Cincinnati is loaded with intact, unflipped 1920s-1970s homes.  This one is from 1955 and is within walking distance of the house I lived in ages 5-10 with pretty much everything in place.  In fact this is my old little league coach's house...I don't clearly remember being in it but I might have if he had an end-of-season party there. 

https://www.sibcycline.com/Listing/CIN/1645549/3446-Blue-Rock-Rd-White-Oak-OH-45239

 

It's easy to imagine one of those home improvement shows hacking away at this perfectly functional kitchen and bathroom.  $20,000 for a new kitchen and $15,000 for a new bathroom just so you can impress people you don't like on Instagram.

I was waiting for the Connors to come out!  That couch.

Edited by X
Please don't quote large numbers of photos.

I consider the "Live... Laugh" sign in the kitchen a full reno

I remember during my year-long home search in Cincinnati, I either had:

  • "Fixer-Upper" with a guy passed out on a lone mattress next to a raging pit-bull surrounded by beer cans
  • "Affordable" with uneven floors, 1980s laminate and 1970s wood paneling (Pittsburgh Dad would be proud)
  • "Luxury" with gut-rehab that was unattainable

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