On 7/13/2023 at 1:10 AM, Lazarus said:

This plan looks like Ovation.  They have replaced a real urban area with drive-to urbanism. 

 

Hey, let's continue to ignore the presence of a goddamn subway station right next to the stadium. 

 

 

I wish we could do something with the subway as much as anybody but I disagree that this site plan is like Ovation. If it was like ovation the entire site would have been lifted to match the plaza level of the stadium with nothing facing the surrounding streets except parking garages. This site plan allows level transition from the streets to the plazas and is 10x more pedestrian friendly that Ovation.

There was an opportunity to really take advantage of the tight street grid there, but first the parking garage, and now this, they have destroyed what could have been a super cool area.   All that talk in the beginning of the slides about making it feel like Cincinnati and fit with the neighborhood, and this is what they come up with.  I really hate this layout.   The tallest building should be on the corner of Liberty and Central.   Am I the only one who thinks that?    The Plaza area is wasted space being on Central like that.  No one is going to want to be there next to a major road. 

 

Buildings should be to the lot lines, Buildings on Central and Liberty, keep the original street grid, plaza interior behind the buildings.  Simple.

Since the stadium is ultra modern the entire area could have a gehry look. That is to say not cincy. Or Maybe a transistional modern hotel and the surrounding buildings get more traditional as they near Liberty. Clever brick work. A thicket of trees and loud waterfall could help keep the busy street quieter. 

23 hours ago, JoeHarmon said:

The tallest building should be on the corner of Liberty and Central.

Just a reminder that in this area, Liberty St intersects (somewhat annoyingly) with both Central Ave and Central Parkway. 

On 7/14/2023 at 11:03 AM, ucgrady said:

I'm late on this, but I love the addition of a good sized hotel right on this site. OTR has such strict historic guidelines (not complaining, it's just a fact) that utilizing West End's lack of height limits is really smart and something I think is necessary to keep OTR moving in the right direction. I know we don't want OTR to become the French Quarter, but I think increased tourism to the neighborhood is necessary to make OTR a fully thriving neighborhood with the density of businesses, retail, breweries etc. that it once had. 

There are height limits in the PD Zoning as approved by the city.

 

 

3 hours ago, breakground said:

There are height limits in the PD Zoning as approved by the city.

 

 

The PD can be amended, which will probably be necessary anyways.

On 7/17/2023 at 10:12 AM, JoeHarmon said:

There was an opportunity to really take advantage of the tight street grid there, but first the parking garage, and now this, they have destroyed what could have been a super cool area.   All that talk in the beginning of the slides about making it feel like Cincinnati and fit with the neighborhood, and this is what they come up with.  I really hate this layout.   The tallest building should be on the corner of Liberty and Central.   Am I the only one who thinks that?    The Plaza area is wasted space being on Central like that.  No one is going to want to be there next to a major road. 

 

Buildings should be to the lot lines, Buildings on Central and Liberty, keep the original street grid, plaza interior behind the buildings.  Simple.

 

The Gallagher Way development at Wrigley works with the plaza right on the busy road. Clark Street isn't as wide as Central but Central will be a lot more pleasant after it's redesign so I think it'll be fine. 

4 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

Clark Street isn't as wide as Central but Central

Just a reminder that in this area, Liberty St intersects (somewhat annoyingly) with both Central Ave and Central Parkway. 

2 hours ago, jwulsin said:

Just a reminder that in this area, Liberty St intersects (somewhat annoyingly) with both Central Ave and Central Parkway. 

 

Yep. I was talking about Central Parkway.

On 7/17/2023 at 10:12 AM, JoeHarmon said:

There was an opportunity to really take advantage of the tight street grid there, but first the parking garage, and now this, they have destroyed what could have been a super cool area.   All that talk in the beginning of the slides about making it feel like Cincinnati and fit with the neighborhood, and this is what they come up with. 

 

Yeah, it's crap.  Tons of lying, then a pile of crap.  Which people like me predicted.  Because that's what the Lindners and Jeff Berding do, decade after decade. 

Some of you just live to complain.  

Well we could have had something outstanding.  Instead we're getting a repeat of past sins but the soccer lovers refuse to see it. 

 

6 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

Well we could have had something outstanding.  Instead we're getting a repeat of past sins but the soccer lovers refuse to see it. 

 

I mean it could be a lot worse, we could be getting CUF style apartment buildings and 5 floor Hilton garden inn type developments. Let’s see what the final development rendering looks like before we need a snickers bar. 

1 hour ago, Lazarus said:

Well we could have had something outstanding.  Instead we're getting a repeat of past sins but the soccer lovers refuse to see it. 

 

When has anything been built that you consider outstanding?  You and some other people on here seem to complain about everything.   

this complex and the stadium have the potential to be something outstanding. But, the midwest, banks, and lack of people limit a Bilbao style complex.  Architects could design a unique, contemporary village or design a safe traditional brick italianade style neighborhood. Which reminds me of Red Green from the great frozen north who said,  "If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." None the less, when it's completed Liberty and Central Parkway will continue to bring investment and people to that part of town. 

I agree with a lot of others, hopefully this turns out really outstanding in the end and draws people. It will definitely help with northern OTR as well / Findlay Market area.

 

There is a lot of investment going on in this corridor at the moment and hopefully they can fix up Central Parkway north of Liberty street as well. Lot's of opportunity here and this is kick starting it.

 

Some times I wonder, how many "areas" can there be downtown / OTR. We still need tons of investment on 4th street corridor up and around Fountain Square, the Banks and the Caps, this area, and north of Liberty OTR as well as South of Liberty around Walnut. Can we get enough people to continue filling this area as residential and is Cincinnati big enough of a metro to support all of this as well? The pandemic really put a damper on things IMO but hopefully it keeps coming back with work from office since in Cincinnati, unlike in other large cities, the commutes aren't as bad.

 

Anyways, at least in this area, huge upgrades are coming and I am excited to see how it all turns out and the area around Findlay Market continue to fill out.

30 minutes ago, IAGuy39 said:

Some times I wonder, how many "areas" can there be downtown / OTR.

 

 

Yeah, Mt. Adams died off. 

 

When downtown and OTR are bustling, it's because people have traveled there from outer neighborhoods. 

 

Even with the large number of new residents on the riverfront and downtown, it can still be a complete ghost town at times.  I wonder how can all of these people be inside watching TV?  But they are. 

 

 

28 minutes ago, IAGuy39 said:

Some times I wonder, how many "areas" can there be downtown / OTR. We still need tons of investment on 4th street corridor up and around Fountain Square, the Banks and the Caps, this area, and north of Liberty OTR as well as South of Liberty around Walnut. Can we get enough people to continue filling this area as residential and is Cincinnati big enough of a metro to support all of this as well?

I have this worry as well, and I think compared to our nearby peer cities of we have the problem that our many districts are not contiguous or easily navigated by tourists or even locals with bad directional skills. The streetcar exacerbates this feeling by meandering through town instead of being a straight shot up and down Vine. In Columbus if you can find and park near High street, you are basically done navigating for the day and can just walk up and down that one street and see the majority of what the city has to offer as it all pretty much connects to that one street. Similar conditions exist in Nashville (Broadway) Louisville (Market/Bardstown) and even touristy places like Charleston's King St and Chicago's Michigan Ave. 

 

All that being said, this FCC 'district' is less than 1000 feet from Findlay market and I think will continue to help the Findlay area and Northern Liberties as opposed to cannibalizing other districts (like OTR killed Mount Adams) with the possible exception of the Banks since this has a similar 'drink next to sports stadium' vibe. 

55 minutes ago, IAGuy39 said:

 Can we get enough people to continue filling this area as residential and is Cincinnati big enough of a metro to support all of this as well? 

 

In general, yes. We have 2.2 million people in our metro. We need more residential in the downtown basin. Our population is gradually reshuffling into core city neighborhoods (thinking Pleasant Ridge, Oakley, College Hill along with strong rental activity in Downtown/OTR)

 

Residents spend differently than businesses and visitors. That is fine, we need both residents and visitors. Less of a focus on office for better or worse. Lunch activity is an issue that needs to be addressed. WFH could help if we can get people out of their residences during the day (maybe for meetings, 3rd places, etc.)

 

West End is coming along between Bank and Liberty, especially around Baymiller and Dayton Street. On a walk a few weeks ago, I noticed a lot of construction activity and some Port related rehabs that have sold. This "district" is probably 5 years out, but its coming.

 

Regarding the quote below:

20 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

In Columbus if you can find and park near High street, you are basically done navigating for the day and can just walk up and down that one street and see the majority of what the city has to offer as it all pretty much connects to that one street. Similar conditions exist in Nashville (Broadway) Louisville (Market/Bardstown) and even touristy places like Charleston's King St and Chicago's Michigan Ave. 

 

Following this logic, Vine Street is the obvious "spine" downtown however it is not well activated below Central Parkway or above Liberty Street...yet. Probably another thing at least 5 years away.

 

Despite that, I think our downtown basin works well as smaller districts, connected mostly by a somewhat non-linear streetcar. We have interesting side streets to explore which adds a texture you do not get with linear corridor districts like High Street. It's a great street, but it's one long street. It works up and down but less east and west. I think our downtown has a stronger dynamic and stronger potential because of it. Actually, I think the stronger connection needs are between downtown and Covington and Newport. Connecting to those downtowns would be huge. The Southbank Shuttle is there but its not great to ride and not as reliable w/out the Roebling Bridge routing it once had.

 

Regarding the FC development, it's fine. It will deliver residential density and would be a big contributor to Findlay Market and surrounding areas. There needs to be better pedestrian crossing infrastructure at Central Parkway and Liberty. Hopefully that comes through with the Parkway redo.

16 minutes ago, JYP said:

We have interesting side streets to explore which adds a texture you do not get with linear corridor districts like High Street.

I agree 100% and I think it makes Cincinnati feel bigger and more complex by comparison but that can be intimidating for some people. I've noticed it a lot this week with Black Tech Week in town and how many people are looking for places around OTR that they can't find. They second guess themselves when they are aiming for a place off Clay or 15th street verses if they see it right on Vine with lots of people around. It's all about density and people on the street and the answer is of course just more dense residential development and filling out vacant buildings. 

As others have said we need to keep building residential downtown to support these different entertainment districts Mon - Thurs.  As much as people bitch about 3CDC they do a really good job of having smaller events going on every weekend and even on most weeknights downtown.  Larger events like a game, concert or convention will always bring in people from outside the region and one of those occurs almost every weekend as well.  But if you get more people living downtown then all these areas will not be so reliant on the out of region and suburb crowd. 

 

The FCC development will help with that even if it doesn't look exactly like some people want. When this is complete along with Liberty and Elm it will make a huge difference in the northern OTR and eastern West End areas.  I'm not sure what the city/county are waiting on but they need to finish the block at the banks south of GE.  That parking garage support is built and ready for development to go on top.  In between those areas there are lots of older buildings that are in the process already or can be converted to residential.  Keep doing all of this and we'll continue to have a strong urban core.  

4 hours ago, JYP said:

 

 

 

Following this logic, Vine Street is the obvious "spine" downtown however it is not well activated below Central Parkway or above Liberty Street...yet. Probably another thing at least 5 years away.

 

Despite that, I think our downtown basin works well as smaller districts, connected mostly by a somewhat non-linear streetcar. We have interesting side streets to explore which adds a texture you do not get with linear corridor districts like High Street. It's a great street, but it's one long street. It works up and down but less east and west. I think our downtown has a stronger dynamic and stronger potential because of it. Actually, I think the stronger connection needs are between downtown and Covington and Newport. Connecting to those downtowns would be huge. The Southbank Shuttle is there but its not great to ride and not as reliable w/out the Roebling Bridge routing it once had.

 

 

 

I agree in regards to dynamic and potential. The potential is there for our contiguous urban core (Banks, DT, OTR, West End) to be really massive. There needs to be tons of investment still and maybe what 3CDC is trying to do to connect FS better to OTR, I think eventually it will get there to be the spine then everything else around it is a big bonus. I think OTR is taking care of itself really with the investments, etc., but 3CDC or someone else needs to come in and fill up the lots and low use buildings on Vine all the way down to the Banks.

 

The other thing I think is good in outer neighborhoods like PR, Oakley etc. is to continue to build out, not necessarily for canibalizing the urban core but because people are more inclined to spend their money in their own neighborhoods then going out big. For example, a young couple say with 2 young kids are more likely to get dinner in the PR business district if they live in PR on a Wednesday (or even any other day when kids are young) then to drive downtown and park, walk a long ways, etc. with diaper bags in tow and screaming 1 year olds ha ha. All that will continue to help the local economy. OTR may be destined for young people and retirees and business people and entertainment mostly, but if you can keep the money in the business districts as much as possible that will be huge too.

19 hours ago, IAGuy39 said:

 

The other thing I think is good in outer neighborhoods like PR, Oakley etc. is to continue to build out, not necessarily for canibalizing the urban core but because people are more inclined to spend their money in their own neighborhoods then going out big. For example, a young couple say with 2 young kids are more likely to get dinner in the PR business district if they live in PR on a Wednesday (or even any other day when kids are young) then to drive downtown and park, walk a long ways, etc. with diaper bags in tow and screaming 1 year olds ha ha. All that will continue to help the local economy. OTR may be destined for young people and retirees and business people and entertainment mostly, but if you can keep the money in the business districts as much as possible that will be huge too.

 

I thought about this as well. With more developments like Factory 52 and Montgomery Quarter, I could see this being the case.

Little tidbit in this article mentions that the Freestore moved out of their Central Parkway location in March:

Quote

Back in March, Freestore Foodbank closed the doors at their Central Parkway location, but instead of allowing the building to sit vacant, they decided to rent out the parking lot.

 

Anybody know more about the specifics of their move and plans for this site? Do they have a purchase agreement with somebody for their land?

Edited July 26, 20231 yr by jwulsin

Is the other building next to Freestore also owned by them?  Or does someone else own that?  Freeing up that entire block along with the larger CET block just north would be a prime spot for future development.  

6 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

Is the other building next to Freestore also owned by them?  Or does someone else own that?  Freeing up that entire block along with the larger CET block just north would be a prime spot for future development.  

Duke owns it

12 minutes ago, Dev said:

Duke owns it

Well that sucks.  I new the substation south of Freestore was owned by Duke but didn't know this half block also was.  I assume it would be very difficult to get them to move. 

This guy is a genius:

On 7/26/2023 at 11:07 AM, Dev said:

Duke owns it

 

There was a coal power plant on that block 100+ years ago.  It used water from the canal.  I'm not sure when it was torn down. 

 

In New York City they rebuild these things in the basements of hi-rises, so that's a possibility if the site is developed, although it would probably be much easier to move this function into the basement of a new building on an adjacent block. 

 

 

 

 

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2023/07/28/fc-cincinnatis-stadium-area-development-to-include-music-venue/70488337007/
 

Possible music venue next to TQL. Also mentioned that the hotel will be 18 floors and the apartments will be 13. Mentioned that they want it to fit into the surrounding area so they will use brick for the buildings and cobblestone for the street. 

Edited July 29, 20231 yr by Ucgrad2015

3 hours ago, Ucgrad2015 said:

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2023/07/28/fc-cincinnatis-stadium-area-development-to-include-music-venue/70488337007/
 

Possible music venue next to TQL. Also mentioned that the hotel will be 18 floors and the apartments will be 12. Mentioned that they want it to fit into the surrounding area so they will use brick for the buildings and cobblestone for the street. 

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5c9a73454d87117017c01508/t/64c52deb79731077adf079fb/1690643971845/230726_WEMU_Community+Meeting_reduced.pdf
 

Presentation for the West End Community Council.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5c9a73454d87117017c01508/t/64c52deb79731077adf079fb/1690643971845/230726_WEMU_Community+Meeting_reduced.pdf

 

seems that someone has been thinking about this corner. Those are beautiful drawings and photos of the TQL village. Love the radiating arms that correspond with the curve of the stadium itself. 

FC Cincinnati eyes music, entertainment venue at $300 million West End development

 

Conceptual plans for FC Cincinnati’s West End project it’s building adjacent to TQL Stadium show a potential event and music venue, which the soccer club’s chief development officer said could be a key part to activating the entertainment district year-round.

 

FC Cincinnati is partnering with Los Angeles-based Rios as its master plan architect on the 8.5-acre site just north of its TQL Stadium home in the West End. The team is aiming for Rios to design the $300 million mixed-use entertainment district based on West End’s heritage while also making it accessible for people of all ages.

 

As a part of opening accessibility and creating more events year-round in the district, FC Cincinnati and Rios are eyeing the addition of a roughly 1,500-capacity music venue adjacent to TQL Stadium across from Bauer Avenue. The venue was a part of plans first showed to the West End community during a June 20 meeting and again during a July 26 meeting.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2023/08/01/fc-cincinnati-eyes-music-venue-west-end.html

 

FC Cincinnati's $300 million West End project slated to go before City Planning Commission next month

By Abby Miller – Reporter, Cincinnati Business Courier

Aug 23, 2023

Updated Aug 23, 2023 8:17pm EDT

 

The soccer club has submitted a conceptual plan to the city of Cincinnati, and the city's planning commission will soon consider proposed changes that would make the project come to life.

 

MORE

 

7 hours ago, The_Cincinnati_Kid said:

FC Cincinnati's $300 million West End project slated to go before City Planning Commission next month

By Abby Miller – Reporter, Cincinnati Business Courier

Aug 23, 2023

Updated Aug 23, 2023 8:17pm EDT

 

The soccer club has submitted a conceptual plan to the city of Cincinnati, and the city's planning commission will soon consider proposed changes that would make the project come to life.

 

MORE

 

It mentions details for phase 1 but do we know which buildings are included in that phase? It mentions the condos which is the light purple but doesn’t mention anything about the hotel which is dark purple. Also mentions 150 of the final count of 450 residential units but the only apartment building is the yellow. 

I would think the hotel is in phase 1 since they have been talking about that the longest.  But who knows maybe things have changed. 

I'd like to see another stand-alone condo tower. The hotel will be a nice addition though.

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2023/09/08/west-end-town-center-garage-redevelopment-plans.html
 

Three potential development plans for the CET building and garage. Personally I like the Model group proposal.

Three plans emerge for West End's Town Center Garage redevelopment, including a potential arena

 

Few people likely even know what or where the Town Center Garage is in the West End.

 

Across Central Parkway from Music Hall, with WCET-TV’s building at the center, a mural of singing faces adorns the south side. It’s a place to park when people head to Music Hall or something they drive by when on the way to TQL Stadium or Findlay Market. The city has been mulling over what to do with it going back to at least the Cranley administration, which started in 2013.

 

Plans for the site have varied over the decades since Interstate 75’s construction nearby and included an amphitheater, a residential tower, a department store, a bus terminal and a corporate headquarters.

 

The garage and surrounding surface lot have reached the end of their useful life. Some of the 750 spaces aren’t even usable. Indecision aside, it is one of the most-important potential development sites in Cincinnati’s urban core.

 

The 147,000-square-foot site has the potential to link the West End to both Over-the-Rhine and downtown and be home to a signature gateway project for the West End, the city and the region in an area that is desperate for retail and restaurant options.

 

The city of Cincinnati has received three known responses to a pending request for proposals (RFP) for the site, which the Business Courier obtained. Two developers proposed mixed-use, market-rate apartment developments that would bring hundreds of new residents and activity. Or the city could listen to the region’s largest tourism agency and hold off while leaders consider whether a new arena could fit there.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2023/09/08/west-end-town-center-garage-redevelopment-plans.html

 

It'll wind up being an arena but apartments are a better use of the space. The arena should be built next to Union Terminal where it won't take up space that would be better used for housing.

I can't see an arena fitting on that site without a lot of destruction and re-working of the area and I believe there are better sites out there for an arena and could be more depending on the final BSB approach design. If Hines is already on board, the existing CET office can stay I don't know why it hasn't already happened. The city needs to be more open to just saying YES to out of town developers who want to do work here. 

15 minutes ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

It'll wind up being an arena but apartments are a better use of the space. The arena should be built next to Union Terminal where it won't take up space that would be better used for housing.

Why can't apartments go next to Union Terminal?  

2 hours ago, Ucgrad2015 said:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2023/09/08/west-end-town-center-garage-redevelopment-plans.html
 

Three potential development plans for the CET building and garage. Personally I like the Model group proposal.

Here are some additional renderings of our plan which showcase the street level connectivity, which is really what we were trying to emphasize with our development. Retail on almost every side of the block with a programmable plaza that allows for easy movement through the site are key to engaging this site with the surrounding neighborhoods.

I know we're all scarred and cynical, but I don't think it'll be the arena.  Council is less susceptible to the Berding posse than the previous council and mayor.  The chamber and Berding keep pushing that we NEED an arena, if that's true, there's plenty of other places they could put it (especially with the BSB land that was reclaimed.) It doesn't need to be in a prime location, especially if it won't have a full-time tenant.

 

There's an emphasis on housing need in the council, they'll choose Hines or Model.  I like the look of Model better, but either one of those is a win.

Edited September 8, 20231 yr by 10albersa

24 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

Why can't apartments go next to Union Terminal?  

 

I mean, they can and there's a plan for more residential near CUT but the West End is better used for residential. It's closer to more walkable amenities that already exist. 

The only real benefit of the Hines plan is that it leaves CET in place; however, if they can make it work to demo and rebuild their offices the Model plan is a better layout.

 

Hines U shape around the existing CET:

 

Model Group Site Plan:

I like the Model plan the best but I think they should rethink CET and expand upon that complex. Add a larger sound stage or something that can help cater to more movies coming to town. 

If we don't put the arena here I don't think we're going to get a new one.  I think that because I don't believe we get a new one without FCCs ownership paying for some of it, and I don't believe they'll foot any of the bill if the arena isn't located by their stadium/development.  

17 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

If we don't put the arena here I don't think we're going to get a new one.  I think that because I don't believe we get a new one without FCCs ownership paying for some of it, and I don't believe they'll foot any of the bill if the arena isn't located by their stadium/development.  

Yeah probably, I imagine the Bengals and Reds would veto any use of the stadium tax for US Bank refurbs as well.  I know that means we miss out on conventions and NCAA tournament games, but I'm so tired of FCC just getting whatever they want. The stadium would be easily the worst use of that land. 

 

Model creates a bit of an OTR spillover design, which is great since 12th is a major OTR street.  A stadium just cements that Central Pkwy (regardless of redesign) remains a wall to the West End that pedestrians aren't invited to cross.

1 hour ago, ucgrady said:

I can't see an arena fitting on that site without a lot of destruction and re-working of the area

 

See the Central Parkway narrowing.  Plus, they certainly haven't hesitated to tear down historic buildings.  Nothing is safe.