7 minutes ago, 10albersa said:

Yeah probably, I imagine the Bengals and Reds would veto any use of the stadium tax for US Bank refurbs as well.  I know that means we miss out on conventions and NCAA tournament games, but I'm so tired of FCC just getting whatever they want. The stadium would be easily the worst use of that land. 

 

Model creates a bit of an OTR spillover design, which is great since 12th is a major OTR street.  A stadium just cements that Central Pkwy (regardless of redesign) remains a wall to the West End that pedestrians aren't invited to cross.

A new arena is a huge need for our city and if the FCC owners are the only ones who can get one built then it should go on this land.  There are plenty of other areas and surface lots in downtown, West End and Queensgate where residential developments can occur. 

Land north of Hard Rock would be far better for an arena than at the town center site. A new arena is needed but doing it here rather than an apartment development that could really stitch NW Downtown and West End together is the the worst of outcomes. It would also permanently create a wall between cbd and west end that extend to TQL stadium. 

 

Model design looks best to me so far. 

36 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

A new arena is a huge need for our city and if the FCC owners are the only ones who can get one built then it should go on this land.  There are plenty of other areas and surface lots in downtown, West End and Queensgate where residential developments can occur. 

No other site available in West End at this juncture could have the impact of a much needed apartment complex being built in a dead part of the basin that would finally allow infill to spill towards City Hall. 

13 minutes ago, stashua123 said:

No other site available in West End at this juncture could have the impact of a much needed apartment complex being built in a dead part of the basin that would finally allow infill to spill towards City Hall. 

How bout actually developing the surface lots around city hall?  Or maybe finishing building on all the empty lots in the Laurel Park area?

34 minutes ago, stashua123 said:

Land north of Hard Rock would be far better for an arena than at the town center site. A new arena is needed but doing it here rather than an apartment development that could really stitch NW Downtown and West End together is the the worst of outcomes. It would also permanently create a wall between cbd and west end that extend to TQL stadium. 

 

Model design looks best to me so far. 

Personally I want a Barclay's Center shaped arena on the triangular lot south of casino behind the PPG building just because it could be cool looking and would be better connected to downtown. but I completely agree the casino area would be a better location. But either north or south of the casino makes sense to utilize the existing huge parking garage, have built in sports betting and concert tie-ins with Hard Rock, and also 'surround' OTR with arenas & entertainment venues on both sides.

Edited September 8, 20231 yr by ucgrady

Doesn't an arena on the reclaimed BSB/spaghetti land make more sense since it could be directly connected to a convention center expansion?

Edited September 8, 20231 yr by Rabbit Hash

I think the reality is do you want a new arena or not. If you do, it's going to go where FCC wants it because they're going to be the ones paying for it. Whether that's this piece of land or one north of liberty (can't see this happening imo). I don't see Hard Rock coughing up the money anytime soon if they're planning a hotel but maybe I'm wrong?

 

Both options can be critical, just in different ways. I think this site is probably the most realistic site for an arena so it might just come down to if FCC wants it that bad. Or maybe if CET has final say then none of this matters and the multi-use happens after all.

 

No reason you can't build on other lots just south of this (freestore, lot #22, etc). Can the Duke energy substation be moved? I have no idea how those things work but that would open up a significant lot.

Substations can be moved. Louisville City's soccer stadium is built on a substation site IIRC.

I love the location of TQL stadium and the opposition to it is very overblown. However, building a new arena just down the street has the potential to create a wall between the West End and the rest of downtown. With TQL stadium, it's not as bad because it's set back from Central Pkwy and new development around the stadium will help. I don't think there's enough room for an arena and a multi-use development at the CET site. It's either one or the other.

4 hours ago, dnymck said:

Here are some additional renderings of our plan which showcase the street level connectivity, which is really what we were trying to emphasize with our development. Retail on almost every side of the block with a programmable plaza that allows for easy movement through the site are key to engaging this site with the surrounding neighborhoods.

Is the  open space in the rednerings where CET currently is? Was wondering if they would build around CET until the new space is open then CET would move into the new space and the old space would be turned into what we are seeing as the open space. 

I think it’s important when considering the plans to remember it’s not housing verses a stadium. It’s housing verses a feasibility study that would lead to negotiations with the city that could maybe lead to a stadium years down the road.

 

Unless there’s funding guarantees and advanced plans the public doesn’t know about, I think it would be a dumb move to pass up desperately needed housing or hotel space for what still sounds kind of like a pipe dream. 

FC Stadium has been a tremedous success for the city, state and the tri-state. Not to mention what has happened to north of Liberty OTR. That corner and area in general are an incredible improvements. Now that company is developing residential, hotel, and businesses that looks great in the images. The stadium looks like the renderings. And, if Berning and FC Corp FIFA or whoever wants to add an arena (which the city needs) and foot the bill, say thank you.  Tax payers don't have increased taxation and a new area of town becomes even more inviting. The best thing about this new project is that it won't be another 5 story rectangle apartment building. They are boring and cookie cutter; The banks, The Artistry, Walnut Hills, East Walnut hills, CUF, OTR, College Hill, and Madisonville just to name a few. To quote Mark Twain and Einstein, "build it and they will come."

https://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/planning/about-city-planning/city-planning-commission/09-15-23-cpc-packet/
 

9/15/23 planning packet includes zone changes and major amendment to the FC Cincinnati development. 

6 hours ago, Ucgrad2015 said:

Is the  open space in the rednerings where CET currently is? Was wondering if they would build around CET until the new space is open then CET would move into the new space and the old space would be turned into what we are seeing as the open space. 

Yea it is. Keeping CET in place during construction wouldn't be possible primarily because we have an underground parking garage beneath the entire development.

10 hours ago, 10albersa said:

Yeah probably, I imagine the Bengals and Reds would veto any use of the stadium tax for US Bank refurbs as well.

Ummm im pretty sure the reds and bengals don’t have the ability to “veto” such a thing. The sports franchises are not government entities nor do they control tax dollars. Also I don’t see why they would even oppose arena funding if it doesn’t effect renovations to their own stadiums.

1 hour ago, 646empire said:

Ummm im pretty sure the reds and bengals don’t have the ability to “veto” such a thing. The sports franchises are not government entities nor do they control tax dollars. Also I don’t see why they would even oppose arena funding if it doesn’t effect renovations to their own stadiums.

They have veto power over specific developments at The Banks (of which Heritage Bank arena is a part).  Even if there's nothing explicitly mentioned, I'm sure the Bengals' would use a potential re-allocation of funds to Heritage Bank as ammo in lease negotiations. They'd veto it because there's only so much of that tax money to go around, and if Heritage Bank is getting a refurb it would be a huge project, and that means less money for their improvement projects.

Edited September 9, 20231 yr by 10albersa

4 hours ago, RJohnson said:

FC Stadium has been a tremedous success for the city, state and the tri-state. Not to mention what has happened to north of Liberty OTR. That corner and area in general are an incredible improvements. Now that company is developing residential, hotel, and businesses that looks great in the images. The stadium looks like the renderings. And, if Berning and FC Corp FIFA or whoever wants to add an arena (which the city needs) and foot the bill, say thank you.  Tax payers don't have increased taxation and a new area of town becomes even more inviting. The best thing about this new project is that it won't be another 5 story rectangle apartment building. They are boring and cookie cutter; The banks, The Artistry, Walnut Hills, East Walnut hills, CUF, OTR, College Hill, and Madisonville just to name a few. To quote Mark Twain and Einstein, "build it and they will come."

And foot the bill???? Why would you ever think they would do that? 🤣🤣🤣🤣

9 hours ago, 10albersa said:

They have veto power over specific developments at The Banks (of which Heritage Bank arena is a part).  Even if there's nothing explicitly mentioned, I'm sure the Bengals' would use a potential re-allocation of funds to Heritage Bank as ammo in lease negotiations. They'd veto it because there's only so much of that tax money to go around, and if Heritage Bank is getting a refurb it would be a huge project, and that means less money for their improvement projects.

Veto power in regards to development next to Paycor yes. Tax dollar allocation absolutely not. Also as of right now zero new buildings are actually proposed for the football side of the banks so there is nothing to actually Veto. Again if the bengals get the lease/renovation deal done which they will a heritage bank renovation is irrelevant to them.

On 9/8/2023 at 9:57 AM, JaceTheAce41 said:

It'll wind up being an arena but apartments are a better use of the space. The arena should be built next to Union Terminal where it won't take up space that would be better used for housing.

 

Whatever happened to the City Hall parking lot that Milhaus wanted to develop a few years ago but the city denied in favor of the Cincinnati Public Radio proposal which ultimately ended up in Evanston?

 

Seems like a prime location between the Convention Center and Central Parkway/TQL Stadium.

17 hours ago, Miami-Erie said:

 

Whatever happened to the City Hall parking lot that Milhaus wanted to develop a few years ago but the city denied in favor of the Cincinnati Public Radio proposal which ultimately ended up in Evanston?

 

Seems like a prime location between the Convention Center and Central Parkway/TQL Stadium.

Nothing happened because the city is run by morons 

Seems to me that a lot of the effort for the Bridge Forward group and the Chamber was focused on creating a developable lot along the west side of Central Ave between

4th and 5th that could accommodate a new arena a block from the new convention Hotel and others in the Convention Center District.   Obviously still a few years out but at this site will  be available for development  based on the latest info from ODOT. 

1 hour ago, GHOST TRACKS said:

Seems to me that a lot of the effort for the Bridge Forward group and the Chamber was focused on creating a developable lot along the west side of Central Ave between

4th and 5th that could accommodate a new arena a block from the new convention Hotel and others in the Convention Center District.   Obviously still a few years out but at this site will  be available for development  based on the latest info from ODOT. 

 

The idea has been around forever, i.e. the 2012 Olympics bid. 

 

 

On 9/11/2023 at 8:02 AM, GHOST TRACKS said:

Seems to me that a lot of the effort for the Bridge Forward group and the Chamber was focused on creating a developable lot along the west side of Central Ave between

4th and 5th that could accommodate a new arena a block from the new convention Hotel and others in the Convention Center District.   Obviously still a few years out but at this site will  be available for development  based on the latest info from ODOT. 

I think their main goal is to minimize the chaos of the freeway through downtown and restore the street grid. They dont appear to want to guide what that area becomes other than extending the city west. I think if their plan was chosen and the additional land becomes a superblock of parking and a new arena they would not count that as a good thing. I cant talk for them as I'm just a spectator but that's my take. A new arena could take advantage of a minimized highway canyon and be in Queensgate as part of the new connected development area, it wouldn't have to be on the reclaimed land itself. 

If a new arena happens unless it occurs in the same spot at Heritage (probably least likely locations for a new one) then that area on the riverfront can be redeveloped.  I assume Nederlander and AEG who own the arena own the land so someone/the government would have to buy it from them, but the old arena would become obsolete and a complete money pit if a new one is built somewhere else downtown.  

So riddle me this. If all the fighting is over the land where CET is located to build the arena, why not move the arena a couple blocks South toward City Hall? Those blocks are just mostly empty parking lots, the Duke substation (Which can be moved), and some run down smaller buildings that could be easily razed. 

This way, the arena is 2 blocks closer to the convention center, and you do not have to worry about how to develop the CET property. 

If an arena will fit on the block where CET sits, it will easily fit on some of the blocks just South of there (unless those blocks were all going to be used as part of the project too. 

I think that parking could be an issue and it could be harder to access from the highway as opposed to the CET site. 

10 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

So riddle me this. If all the fighting is over the land where CET is located to build the arena, why not move the arena a couple blocks South toward City Hall? Those blocks are just mostly empty parking lots, the Duke substation (Which can be moved), and some run down smaller buildings that could be easily razed. 

This way, the arena is 2 blocks closer to the convention center, and you do not have to worry about how to develop the CET property. 

I had a similar thought/question. The Courier article quoted Julie Calvert as saying "It is a prime site. It will be only three blocks from the convention center, which, of course, there’s events that we could then utilize an arena for."

 

That quote stood out to me because I don't know how you can count "3 blocks" north from the convention center (6th ST) and get to the Town Center garage which is north of 12th St. If you squint (ignoring 8th St), "3 blocks" might get you around Court St and the surface lot adjacent to the substation. 

 

But as you said, the issue with that area would be the lack of structured parking. Could be solved, but would be better for the arena to share structured parking with some existing use (casino, FCC, The Banks, etc). 

 

 

If you got rid of Charles Street, something even slightly larger than Heritage Bank would fit pretty easy on this block with room south for development/parking with at least three easy entry/exit points to 75.

I'd prefer the arena closer to the convention center. There's a garage on 7th that's used for FCC season ticket holders (I know this because I have one of those unfortunate passes). 

 

My top sites for a new arena would be:

Casino

Queensgate

Near City Hall

Riverfront

Tear down Newport on the Levee and build it there since shopping malls are dead

CET site.

Just now, tonyt3524 said:

 

If you got rid of Charles Street, something even slightly larger than Heritage Bank would fit pretty easy on this block with room south for development/parking with at least three easy entry/exit points to 75.

 

Thanks for making this but it also highlights a big problem with the site. It's not big enough. The problem with Heritage Bank is that it's too small and outdated for modern events. The concourses are far too narrow and they have to bring in porta-potties and set them outside for bigger concerts. Maybe you can solve this by building a taller arena. We need something in the 16-18k seating range that can host hockey. 

11 minutes ago, tonyt3524 said:

 

If you got rid of Charles Street, something even slightly larger than Heritage Bank would fit pretty easy on this block with room south for development/parking with at least three easy entry/exit points to 75.

Move it flush with Court Street, narrow Central in that area to get some additional width on the block. 

Another example. I think it could be done. Use the extra space in dark grey for additional concourse room and it would be fine imo.

 

Edited September 13, 20231 yr by tonyt3524

I think you close down Charles street and extend over there as well. No sense in trying to squeeze it into a tight footprint when you have the ability to expand it out some. If Central is going to be narrowed, you can get some more width.

Close Charles street to expand the concourses like they have in INdy, use the area where freestore is to add arena centric development or even just a plaza, relocate the Freestore to another building. 

35 minutes ago, tonyt3524 said:

Another example. I think it could be done. Use the extra space in dark grey for additional concourse room and it would be fine imo.

 

 

Any of these options would be nice especially if they lead to the replacement of all those nearby surface lots with better uses.

On 9/8/2023 at 9:15 PM, dnymck said:

Yea it is. Keeping CET in place during construction wouldn't be possible primarily because we have an underground parking garage beneath the entire development.

If the CET block is a little small and CET building is on an underground garage, then just keep digging. Some of the court/gallery/stands could be underground. The location is right and makes the moneyed people happy. It would fill in and activate the westend, OTR north, OTR and help connect the downtown to FC. Music Hall, FC Stadium, new arena, Findlay Market, Washington Park and the Brewrey area sounds like a very inviting area for all kinds of locals and out of towners. Lots of people and lots of events could convince the city to drop another Connector line from the Museum Center across to the Casino. 

1 hour ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

I think you close down Charles street and extend over there as well. No sense in trying to squeeze it into a tight footprint when you have the ability to expand it out some. If Central is going to be narrowed, you can get some more width.

Close Charles street to expand the concourses like they have in INdy, use the area where freestore is to add arena centric development or even just a plaza, relocate the Freestore to another building. 

 

Oh yeah I completely agree. If they develop the CET lot to one of the previously mentioned options, you could even include a plaza type space to connect the areas

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2023/09/13/fc-cincinnati-rezoning-in-west-end-part-of-1b-in-development/70700745007/
 

Enquirer article about developments happening in the West End as well as Western portion of downtown. Most of the information in this we already are aware of on this forum. 

Planning Commission packet for tomorrow's meeting is out, with the FCC project starting on page 39: https://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/planning/about-city-planning/city-planning-commission/09-15-23-cpc-packet/

 

North of Bauer St, there are three parcels (414 Bauer, 408 Bauer, and 1565 Central) that are holding out and haven't sold to FCC yet. I don't think there's anything in the packet that suggests what FCC's long-term plan is for north of Bauer St. Presumably, they're going to continue trying to acquire those remaining three parcels. And I assume they'll have to amend the planned development if/when they decide to build anything north of Bauer St (regardless of whether they acquire the three remaining parcels).

 

 

 

 

 

32 minutes ago, jwulsin said:

Planning Commission packet for tomorrow's meeting is out, with the FCC project starting on page 39: https://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/planning/about-city-planning/city-planning-commission/09-15-23-cpc-packet/

 

North of Bauer St, there are three parcels (414 Bauer, 408 Bauer, and 1565 Central) that are holding out and haven't sold to FCC yet. I don't think there's anything in the packet that suggests what FCC's long-term plan is for north of Bauer St. Presumably, they're going to continue trying to acquire those remaining three parcels. And I assume they'll have to amend the planned development if/when they decide to build anything north of Bauer St (regardless of whether they acquire the three remaining parcels).

 

 

I last talked to the guy who owns 408 Bauer about two years ago.  His mother lives there with him and he's not selling until she passes.  She's in her late 90s. 

 

I still don't know if I'm more shocked that the soccer team has torn down absolutely everything or that its fans have encouraged this behavior. 

 

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

I still don't know if I'm more shocked that the soccer team has torn down absolutely everything or that its fans have encouraged this behavior

Once they tore down Ahavath Achim Synagogue (Revelation Baptist Church), which was truly historic and could've been incorporated in a very cool way with a re-use, I kind of lost the motivation to care or fight for the remaining buildings because it was clear that if that building couldn't be saved the rest were are all doomed. 

1 hour ago, ucgrady said:

Once they tore down Ahavath Achim Synagogue (Revelation Baptist Church), which was truly historic and could've been incorporated in a very cool way with a re-use, I kind of lost the motivation to care or fight for the remaining buildings because it was clear that if that building couldn't be saved the rest were are all doomed. 

The blatant disinterest in even trying o utilize that structure makes me HATE everything about FC. Fine, win some games, and be a positive spokesperson for Cincinnati. But the ownership and development teams can suck it. Absolutely ZERO respect for anything that was already there.

FCC developers should slip Ollie's Trolley a few mil. Maybe ungrade the overall ambience but keep the street vibe. Maybe paint the building a neutral grey to simplify and neutralize that big red building. Keep or upgrade the portrait especially if it is Ollie.  A tree or two would help. Plus a few inviting covered outdoor eating areas. 

 

I don't think the soccer team tore anything down. Those guys don't need second jobs. 

4 minutes ago, TheCOV said:

 

 

4 minutes ago, TheCOV said:

The blatant disinterest in even trying o utilize that structure makes me HATE everything about FC. Fine, win some games, and be a positive spokesperson for Cincinnati. But the ownership and development teams can suck it. Absolutely ZERO respect for anything that was already there.

I was always taught that the church was the people and not the building. of course the next sunday was a sermon was about a new building program. I was not taught how to remove mistakes ive made trying to post on urbanohio. see above.

19 minutes ago, TheCOV said:

The blatant disinterest in even trying o utilize that structure makes me HATE everything about FC. Fine, win some games, and be a positive spokesperson for Cincinnati. But the ownership and development teams can suck it. Absolutely ZERO respect for anything that was already there.

People like you act like they did a Kenyon Barr 2.0 and demolished an entire neighborhood. Have 10 total buildings even been taken down? They are spending half a billion dollars of their own money to build new developments in the urban core. You sound ridiculous. 

Agreed. Complete disrespect for the culture of place. In addition to tearing down buildings, the impact of this massive structure creating an enormous barrier  between the two neighborhoods is undeniable. So far, we haven't seen any positive impact on the West End economy for long-term residents. (Arguably, the opposite with the loss of locally owned businesses.)

46 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

People like you act like they did a Kenyon Barr 2.0 and demolished an entire neighborhood. Have 10 total buildings even been taken down? They are spending half a billion dollars of their own money to build new developments in the urban core. You sound ridiculous. 

They had to tear down the theater on Central to fit the soccer stadium, while maybe a little sad it was just a fact. The demolition of the church was egregious because the site isn't even part of their development plan or in the way of anything. According to the plans posted above it was demolished so it can be used as a staging area for construction. 

17 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

They had to tear down the theater on Central to fit the soccer stadium, while maybe a little sad it was just a fact. The demolition of the church was egregious because the site isn't even part of their development plan or in the way of anything. According to the plans posted above it was demolished so it can be used as a staging area for construction. 

Yes, the church wasn’t a part of the development of the stadium but I feel it was kind of obvious that they would go for the buildings around it. IMO this spot was the best spot for the stadium. Oakley just doesn’t have the road capacity for all that traffic and having FC Cincinnati really in Newport doesn’t make sense either (we’re not the Jets or the Giants). If they would have put the stadium elsewhere I highly doubt we’d be seeing all the development close to the stadium as well (Central Parkway redesign, CET redevelopment, Findlay garage). Heck, maybe even Liberty and Elm could have been nixed if it wasn’t for the stadium.

 

The staging area is just temporary, they are planning on developing that site at some point. 
 

 

 

Edited September 14, 20231 yr by Ucgrad2015

1 hour ago, Cincy513 said:

People like you act like they did a Kenyon Barr 2.0 and demolished an entire neighborhood. Have 10 total buildings even been taken down? They are spending half a billion dollars of their own money to build new developments in the urban core. You sound ridiculous. 

People like me just think ONE important building can be saved, and it's really not too much to ask of them. It wasn't a Kenyon Barr 2.0 because that devastation had already happened. And lets not pretend that billionaires didn't manipulate politicians, media, and the public. Or that billionaires still dont want to make money thru such investments. I'm not gonna fall for some totally lame and very fake claims that "if you make it too hard on them they won't spend their money" type of threats. And this whole project did receive some public investment and didn't pay sales tax on construction costs. So cry me a river.

So much public $. Sadly the elected did not use their leverage to protect the people, buildings, or neighborhood. 

If you had a choice between saving the theater or the church, which would you choose? In a hundred years which one would be appreciated more? Would thespians worship on stage or would believers still drop by to see if he'd shown up? Unfortunately, the rich have been rich a long time and that seems the way it is going to be for a long time. we the huddled masses want sex,drugs and rock and roll and maybe a Tesla and an Iphone. and a boat and beach house. but that is all. we don't need any more. well maybe a Lear Jet would be nice. and maybe a soccer team. we got the soccer team. 

To be clear I think this location for FCC was the best choice and I think this development could be great... I just wish it kept a few of the existing buildings and tried to piece into the neighborhood instead of knocking down everything and starting from scratch. When this developer built Wrigleyville/Gallager Way the only buildings they had to demolish were a Taco Bell and a McDonalds, not a synagogue turned church from before the civil war. It's just a different site context and something I wish they would have worked with instead of demolishing first and figuring out their plans later.

 

It's too late for that now, so all we can hope for is that the plan gets built out to it's fullest potential because I do think a large hotel would be amazing for OTR, but without a prominent hotel brand I guess I'm just still skeptical and guarded about it really happening. 

19 hours ago, breakground said:

So far, we haven't seen any positive impact on the West End economy for long-term residents. (Arguably, the opposite with the loss of locally owned businesses.)

 

A lot of people in the West End disagree with this sentiment. Many people working in the stadium are West End residents, including a decent number of higher paid positions.