Anyone able to make it to the First German Reformed Church clean out?  I thought it was this past weekend that OTR ADOPT was having it?

The site layout for the new Messer construction headquarters is bad. The building is smashed up against the highway with a Walmart sized parking lot between it and Court Street.  It's exactly the opposite of how it should be. To top it off there is a fence around the whole complex. Two streets were removed from the streetgrid to accommodate this.

Well it's not exactly like the west end is full of parking garages for these employees to safely park in.

 

If the lot is truly that big is it possible for messer to absorb the parking spaces towards further expansion of the hq?

^Yes, I remember reading there are plans for a Phase 2 but as of now the building, though it looks nice, doesn't address any of the surrounding streets.

 

Looking at it from another side of things, perhaps nighttime/early morning security was a main concern in that location. It is good they invested in the city.

Messer's Cincinnati Operations branch is in a separate building from their national headquarters.  Phase 2 calls for a new Cincinnati Ops building on their West End campus if they ever decide to move from Pleasant Ridge.  It will be closer to the neighborhood so all the parking is in the middle.

 

I usually cringe when people say "it is better than nothing" but this is one site where I'd have to agree.  Look what it replaced.  Density is never in the cards for that site. 

Messer Construction moves into concrete-infused, $14 million HQ

 

 

Messer Construction Co., the largest general contractor in Greater Cincinnati, has moved into its new headquarters in the West End.

 

Tom Keckeis, CEO of Messer, said the new space, an investment of about $14 million, has the look and feel the company wanted when it decided it needed to move.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2017/09/15/messer-construction-moves-into-concrete-infused-14.html

Does anybody know the history of the apartments south of Ezzard Charles Drive, between I-75 and Linn Street? They are called The Arts at Music Hall. This is the blurb on their website:

 

Located just off I-75, mere minutes from the Ohio River, The Arts Apartments at Music Hall provides residents with easy access to entertainment, shopping, education, transportation, and job opportunities near the center of Cincinnati's urban renewal.

 

The fact that they are named after Music Hall, despite being 3/4 mile from Music Hall, and their website uses the term "urban renewal" ... makes me think that these were something out of the Queensgate II era.

^^ Not too familiar but they have been there as early as i can remember (mid 70's) with the "arting up" occurring in the early/mid 2000's perhaps as an artworks project.

Enquirer reports on West End stadium speculation:

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/politics/2017/11/29/fc-cincinnati-how-serious-buzz-west-end-getting-mls-stadium/907064001/

Being everything is pretty much nailed down in regards to the bid, I look for more of this type of speculation to comes forward the closer we get to the MLS announcement.  This area is the one that has made the most sense all along.  This is the first time I've seen the WCET block mentioned in print which seems interesting.  I think the Stargel site was never actually on the table for these owners.

It has been a poorly-kept-secret for several years that the City wants to redevelop the WCET building and Town Center Garage. That's probably the biggest reason why the Music Hall skywalk didn't get rebuilt... it doesn't make sense to rebuild the skywalk when the garage itself is going to be town down and redeveloped in the coming years.

 

With the Strietmann building turning into office space and several other recent developments in the area, there will be an increased need for parking in the area which the Washington Park Garage alone can not meet. There are several parking lots in the area that could be redeveloped with a new garage, but if the West End is ultimately chosen as the stadium location, hopefully this could be the impetus for redeveloping the Town Center Garage.

Jason Williams was on 700WLW a few minutes ago repeating the extravagant "they need 30 properties or whatever" argument against the west end.  If they truly need 30 properties, then something much bigger than just a stadium is being contemplated. 

The challenge with putting the stadium on either the WCET or the Stargel site is that they aren't wide enough for a 20k stadium... so a stadium would have to expand across Central Ave.

 

If they go with the Stargel site, they could take some (or all) of the land between Central and Providence (maybe all the over to Central Parkway). But the CET site doesn't have a much opportunity to expand, since the CPS Virtual High school is directly across Central Ave.

 

The CMHA site (bounded by Clark, Cutter, Ezzard Charles, and John) is probably big enough, but it seems weird to put a stadium there since it would be landlocked on all four sides by residential and so there'd be nowhere for adjacent development.

 

My guess is that they're trying to get purchase options on as many of the parcels bounded by Wade, Central Parkway, John, and Ezzard Charles.

 

With the ballet potentially moving out, that might make the corner of Liberty/Central Parkway open... but the big warehouse is used by Tri-State Building Supply (great store!). That parcel would only be useful if they ALSO had control of the parcels to the west. jmecklenborg[/member] - anybody make an offer on your plots of land there?

I wrote this back in June on the FCC thread, and it doesn't look like any ownership has changed hands since then of these parcels:

 

<a href="https://twitter.com/jwilliamscincy/status/874783912169545728">Jason Williams tweeted</a> that the West End site would require acquiring "30+ properties"... at first I took that mean they were looking at something other than the Stargel site (since I assumed most that the Stargel site had been consolidated into a single property)... but looking at CAGIS, the north part of the Stargel site is comprised of individual properties (all owned by Cincinnati Public Schools) north of Derrick Turnbow Av.

 

For example here is 419 David St which is a little slice of the end zone:

http://wedge3.hcauditor.org/view/re/1340001029100/2015/aerial_imagery

 

In addition to CPS, there are 5 other owners of properties in the block the south side of Wade:

-425+ Wade: Central Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses

-423 Wade: RJCPII LLC (purchased in 2015 by LLC based in Maryland)

-421 Wade: Historic Limited Liability (purchased 2009)

-419 Wade: CF Urban LLC (purchased 5/31/2017)

-413-415 Wade: West End Renaissance Village (purchased 2010)

 

So, if the stadium could be contained within the Wade/John/Central, then it would require working with at most 6 owners (who collectively own 30+ parcels). Regarding Taft, I don't think CPS or the FCC ownership would be interested in replacing Taft (that would mean finding $ to rebuild school elsewhere... and schools aren't cheap). The limiting factor with this site is the *width*, not the height of the block... so adding that extra height wouldn't help the site much.

 

 

of the parcels to the west. jmecklenborg[/member] - anybody make an offer on your plots of land there?

 

 

No and I wouldn't expect them to since they wouldn't be in the footprint of anything anyone has proposed.  I did write letters to the owners of pretty much every vacant lot in the area back April or May and only got one response, and then that party wised up and realized something was afoot and decided not to sell. 

This building would likely be needed for the stadium an it is out there languishing with a price reduction:

https://www.sibcycline.com/Listing/CIN/1558438/1509-Providence-St-Cincinnati-OH-45214

 

 

I heard from someone that Drees is trying to get final approval on 54 single family homes for the old streetcar construction lay down block south between Ezzard Charles & Clark.  Anyone know if this rumor is true or any other details about this?

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1083067,-84.5243187,205m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

I don't know... but there was some mention that CMHA had recently signed an agreement to sell the land to somebody (not FC Cincinnati), so possible that was Drees.

 

There are also a bunch of empty blocks north of Ezzard Charles. The empty parcels are all owned by CMHA, as far as I can tell. Would be curious what their plans are. There's the potential for this portion of the West End to be a real success model for mixed-income, high quality residential development. The business district along Linn St has struggled lately, but has potential as well I think. If properly managed, I think this neighborhood could be a real success story.

 

If FC Cincinnati does end up putting a stadium in the West End, part of the community benefits agreement could go towards neighborhood investments along Linn and the green spaces along Laurel Park.

This is floating around out there.  Date on the title border appears to be 2017 but it's kinda fuzzy.

Back in 2006, "Tim From Drees" posted a few photos over on the City West thread:

 

https://www.urbanohio.com/forum/index.php/topic,1743.msg123550.html#msg123550

That site plan is a disaster.  We need much higher density than that. 

 

At minimum, apartments should front Ezzard Charles and then the homes should face the existing streets, not inward toward suburban-type drives.

 

What is the significance of the orange versus red?

That site plan is a disaster.  We need much higher density than that. 

 

At minimum, apartments should front Ezzard Charles and then the homes should face the existing streets, not inward toward suburban-type drives.

 

What is the significance of the orange versus red?

 

Agreed. And if they're going to do townhouses, they should be built zero lot line.

That site plan is a disaster.  We need much higher density than that. 

 

At minimum, apartments should front Ezzard Charles and then the homes should face the existing streets, not inward toward suburban-type drives.

 

What is the significance of the orange versus red?

 

I saw that earlier and thought the same, but maybe with the inner streets being "alleys" that means they face the existing streets. I hope.

That plan is horrible.

 

Townhomes should at least have the density of the existing City West development such as those on Mound Street to the south and along Cutter Street.

 

It would be nice if they had some multi family buildings or even mixed use building on the corners as well.

 

 

Does this kind of thing have to pass the local community council meetings like many of the developments in OTR?

 

I really feel like it would fail miserably if it did.

^You're right, those might be rear garages. 

 

But this block is ripe for a "Dallas Donut" type apartment block and maybe a retail storefront along Ezzard Charles. 

I'm pretty sure the plan would be for the houses to have their front doors facing the main streets with the garage/parking off the alley... but even still, that site plan could be so much better if they bump up the density a bit.

The city is cheating itself out of future tax revenues if they approve a plan like that. They could have 2 or 3 times the income tax earners living in that location. But does anyone at city hall even think like that?

I don't hate that site plan, but I agree that the density should be increased. If the red structures are, say, 4 unit apartment buildings, then I'm pretty OK with this proposal as is. I think it would be really beneficial to increase the amount of home owners in the West End. Currently, it has to be one of the most unbalanced neighborhoods when it comes to renters vs owners. Increasing home ownership in the area would probably have positive results on the viability of retail in the neighborhood, and would probably help reduce crime as well, as owners tend to be more vigilant and literally invested in their neighborhoods.

Well there are plenty of spaces for single-family homes all over the West End, especially north of Liberty.  This is the most obvious block for a large apartment building.  Right now the West End is hollowed-out by one large unused dead space after another.  Large unused ball diamonds, parks, and green spaces. 

 

This area used to be as walkable as Over-the-Rhine but now it's not thanks to the cheap single-family homes that went up in the 90s-2000s and all of the dead spaces that will never be activated without a ton of new residents. 

Well there are plenty of spaces for single-family homes all over the West End, especially north of Liberty.  This is the most obvious block for a large apartment building.  Right now the West End is hollowed-out by one large unused dead space after another.  Large unused ball diamonds, parks, and green spaces. 

 

This area used to be as walkable as Over-the-Rhine but now it's not thanks to the cheap single-family homes that went up in the 90s-2000s and all of the dead spaces that will never be activated without a ton of new residents. 

 

I actually like what’s there (including all the newer City West stuff) and walk around it quite a bit. I think overall what’s there is good urbanism. It’s definitely “walkable.” What I have noticed that I don’t care for though is the new stuff does waste space here and there. For example having wide driveways and streets instead of narrower alleys and similiar things. You can see it in this plan- the green space in between the driveways won’t function well as either private backyards or public space, and the awkward way the buildings meet the corner at John and Clark Street.

 

This area used to be as walkable as Over-the-Rhine but now it's not thanks to the cheap single-family homes that went up in the 90s-2000s and all of the dead spaces that will never be activated without a ton of new residents.

 

Nah, I think that's a revisionist account of the former West End. Before the stuff that went up in the early 2000s, there was one of the largest concentrations of public housing in the country. Whatever retail presence existed was limited to mini-marts and cheap food places, some of which still exist today. Crime and loitering was way worse then than it is now, and the area was truly a ghetto with awful, old projects everywhere. I agree that we have swung too far in the other direction now with too much open space, but let's not act like the West End isn't better off now than it was in the 90s and 2000s. Urban renewal all but killed the West End, and the best we can do now is try to rebuild a safe and healthy community that has some semblance of diversity when it comes to race, income, housing typologies, and land use.

^Sorry I was referring to the original neighborhood, not the public housing era. 

 

This site has over 2x the footprint of Radius @the Banks but will have just 100~ residents as 56 single-family homes.  Radius has 250~ units, so about 400 residents.  The West End needs A LOT MORE residents, period.  The number of residents it has now quite obviously aren't enough to motivate businesses to open in the storefronts along Linn that have been empty since they were built 10 years ago:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1107637,-84.5275367,3a,75y,31.72h,97.58t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1syUSwbCBMCMgVSZkIfTQZcw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

What is interesting is the amount of homes that were sold in that area from 2015 to 2017.

 

https://www.zillow.com/homes/recently_sold/globalrelevanceex_sort/39.111661,-84.518074,39.105076,-84.5314_rect/16_zm/

^Sorry I was referring to the original neighborhood, not the public housing era. 

 

This site has over 2x the footprint of Radius @the Banks but will have just 100~ residents as 56 single-family homes.  Radius has 250~ units, so about 400 residents.  The West End needs A LOT MORE residents, period.  The number of residents it has now quite obviously aren't enough to motivate businesses to open in the storefronts along Linn that have been empty since they were built 10 years ago:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1107637,-84.5275367,3a,75y,31.72h,97.58t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1syUSwbCBMCMgVSZkIfTQZcw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

Agreed that the area needs more population, but the lack of retail could also be a result of lack of purchasing power of the residents who do live around there. A little socioeconomic diversity would help the West End quite a bit. You could have 20,000 people within a half mile of Linn St, and it wouldn't make a difference if they don't have money to buy stuff.

The first phase of the Wade St. condo conversions are almost ready:

 

I'm not sure how many condos are in this phase or what the prices will be. 

2018 Citirama (CiTiRAMA) will construct 54 single-family houses in the blocks bounded by Clark, John, Cutter, and Ezzard Charles:

https://twitter.com/CityOfCincy/status/943151725728460800

 

The site plan is uninspired, but I'm glad that at least there are 7 different builders (as opposed to just 1). Even with 7 builders, I'm worried it'll still feel bland/sterile/boring.

They really missed an opportunity to turn the West End back into a properly urban environment. City West (which this will help get closer to completion) has so many odd choices.

 

One of the biggest is the manner in which you enter the rear garages. Why must they be suburban loops? There's already precedent all over the basin for proper alleyways that are parallel to the streets they serve the rears of. It should have just copied that.

 

And the buildings themselves are all pretty bad. The attempt at attached townhomes especially. They form weir suburban clusters that don't fit the site.

 

Overall it's a million times better than Laurel Homes before it, but still miles away from being good infill. Which is a shame because it'll always be a sterile divider between OTR and the portions of the West End that are west of it.

This is a huge mistake. 

Wait... if I’m reading that sign correctly, they are building 8 homes near corner of Cutter and Ezzard Charles first. So probably not 54 homes at once.

^ Yeah, I agree - it looks like they will build the 8 red colored homes on spec as models for CitiRama, I assume the rest will be built if/when they are purchased.

^ Yeah, I agree - it looks like they will build the 8 red colored homes on spec as models for CitiRama, I assume the rest will be built if/when they are purchased.

 

Just what we need: More detached single-family homes right next to downtown.

 

They can't even do rowhouses or townhomes!? Or any other missing-middle quality infill? What is their target demographic? Mind-boggling.

This city never squanders an opportunity to squander an opportunity.

How’s citirama work? Is there a contract in place that says “this will be the final plan” when somebody buys even one house? Would there be a chance to change the homes along John Street for example to higher density?

It's not the highest and best use of this land, I will say that. However, I don't think this is all that terrible of a proposal. When you look at neighboring blocks, 50 homes in this parcel doesn't seem too out of whack. Most of the surrounding neighborhood to the east is comprised of single family homes, albeit older and more densely packed together, and it has a really pleasant, almost sleepy vibe. Adding more families and owner occupied housing will help to keep this area safe and stable. I can also see this neighborhood being a good option for young couples who live in OTR or Downtown who want more space to start a family, but don't want to move out of the core. It's another housing typology that can now be found in the basin. At least that can be the positive spin.

 

I get that the density isn't really what it could be here, but there are so many other sites available both in the West End and downtown, that I'm not really worried about the loss of this particular development site. If this Citirama is successful, perhaps it will jump start further development and redevelopment of the greater West End.

If this Citirama is successful, perhaps it will jump start further development and redevelopment of the greater West End.

 

If the previous iterations didn't do that, then why would this one?

^What previous iterations? You mean City West? That is mostly public housing, with some market rate added in. A new neighborhood of entirely market rate, owner-occupied housing is quite a bit different, no? Furthermore, I would say that this development is proof that City West IS spurring new development in the West End. Do you think we'd be seeing a proposal for 50 market rate homes in this location if Laurel Courts was still in the neighborhood?

All of City West, including the block where these homes are going is zoned RM-0.7 which is described as, "the most intense residential district and it will normally consist of tall multi-family or condominium structures. The character is intended to be urban and should be used where high-intensity residential is needed to provide a residential base for important commercial areas."

 

https://library.municode.com/oh/cincinnati/codes/code_of_ordinances?nodeId=TIXIZOCOCI_CH1405REMUMIDI

 

Huge wasted opportunity.

 

^ Yeah, I agree - it looks like they will build the 8 red colored homes on spec as models for CitiRama, I assume the rest will be built if/when they are purchased.

 

Just what we need: More detached single-family homes right next to downtown.

 

They can't even do rowhouses or townhomes!? Or any other missing-middle quality infill? What is their target demographic? Mind-boggling.

 

Just curious, where are the other detached single family homes right next to downtown?

My point was that the last Citirama was considered successful, and all we got was more crap out of it.  I don't see how this one is any different.  It's like "oh all those other magic bullets didn't work, but THIS ONE will, it's totally different I promise."