^ Now that would be a cool trip. KJP do you have any insight on a ball park figure of how much such a CLE-TOR trip would cost?

I would think for year-round dependability a hovercraft would be the better option. So that may be a little faster than the jet express. 

 

This would rival air travel especially getting to downtown Toronto.

I was wondering how a hovercraft would do going across ice, especially some fairly rugged ice.

 

I would do the passport control/customs on the dock at Cleveland, with the station placed between the Rock Hall and the Science Center so that you could use the planned new walkways to reach the Waterfront Line, Amtrak station, bus station, and by foot into the convention center and the central business district. So if the passport control is done at Cleveland, the transfer time from boat/train or train/boat could be limited to 10-15 minutes, considering the tracks go right onto the dock at Port Stanley. You could literally cross a gangway from the boat right into the train without going outside.

 

^ Now that would be a cool trip. KJP do you have any insight on a ball park figure of how much such a CLE-TOR trip would cost?

 

You mean the fares? Well, one-way VIA fares from Glencoe (about 30 miles west of London; Port Stanley is 25 miles south of London) to Toronto are: $35 for economy; $69 business class; and $131 for Business Plus.

 

CORRECTED: Based on fares for a hovercraft from Rochester to Toronto that wasn't realized, a one-way fare from Cleveland to Port Stanley might cost about $30-$40.

I was wondering how a hovercraft would do going across ice, especially some fairly rugged ice.

 

Good question.  I know they can operate on ice.  But perhaps not the jagged mess we see out there on the lake.

 

I wonder if a simple icebreaking mission would create a flat enough channel (even when frozen) to maintain year-round operations?

Hovercrafts are pretty versatile and robust.  Lake Erie, from talking to sailors, can be as treacherous as an ocean when storms kick up. Here's a link from manufacturer of hovercrafts that brave the north sea.

http://www.griffonhoverwork.com/products-services/hovercraft-range/bht-passenger-configuration.aspx

 

Doubt you could take a jet express to London in February.

Doubt you could take a jet express to London in February.

I doubt you'd have many people interested in taking it even if the option existed.

I doubt you'd have many people interested in taking it even if the option existed.

 

A three-hour trip from Cleveland to downtown Toronto costing $70-$200 round trip? I think it would be wildly popular.

I doubt you'd have many people interested in taking it even if the option existed.

 

A three-hour trip from Cleveland to downtown Toronto costing $150-$250 round trip? I think it would be wildly popular.

In February though?

In February though?

 

Travel demand doesn't cease in February. A hovercraft and a high-speed train can go through almost any weather whereas cars, buses and many flights cannot. Actually, I'd be more worried about late-fall, early-winter when driving from Cleveland to Buffalo is sometimes impossible because of lake effect squalls coming off Lake Erie. The Great Lakes region lacks all-weather transportation and I believe it prevents our economy from reaching its full potential.

 

I was just reading information that hovercraft can travel in rough seas with waves as high as 12 feet. Only in the most severe summer thunderstorms or winter Nor'easters do Lake Erie waves get that high. There may be service delays or disruptions in the most extreme weather.

 

 

BTW, here's the "Scanlines" ship-rail transfer station (with car ferry too) in Puttgarden which is what Port Stanley, ONT could look like....

 

 

And in the dead of winter.....

I doubt you'd have many people interested in taking it even if the option existed.

 

A three-hour trip from Cleveland to downtown Toronto costing $70-$200 round trip? I think it would be wildly popular.

 

Yep.

 

Cheaper than airfares.

 

 

Route overview. Yellow is the water crossing. Blue are existing rail lines upgraded to 100+ mph speeds. Red is the planned, more direct rail line built to 200 mph standards.

 

Cleveland detail

 

Port Stanley detail

 

Rail line from Port Stanley to London, ONT (25 miles)

 

London ONT detail

 

Toronto detail

Oh man.  Love all this.  SO the high speed rail in Canada is being discussed.  A ferry still a pipe dream at this point?

Two revolutions could improve connectivity between two of North America's largest international trading and tourism partners: Ohio and Ontario. One revolution is in the area of monohull high-speed watercraft. The other is in Ontario's $50 billion investment in rail.

 

So how about taking a fast ferry (cars and passengers only -- no trucks on this boat!) at 40-45 mph to Canada to catch a fast train from Port Stanley to London, Kitchener and Toronto? And Canada is already making huge investments in the rail corridor into Toronto with more coming. Our water right of way and the associated docks to access Canada are public and available 9 months out of the year (and possibly more in the future).

 

PRESENTATION:

http://freepdfhosting.com/da54f14e1b.pdf (14mb download)

I ran across this article and saw that somehow nobody created this topic on UrbanOhio...the idea of a Lake Erie bridge has been around since the 1960s, with a bridge on the western side of the Lake using Kelly's Island and Pelee Island to Point Pelee by far the shortest and most feasible because the lake is very shallow in that area.  But connecting Cleveland with the Ontario shore in line with London would make a lot more sense.  I assume that the owner of the Ambassador Bridge and others would act to block Ohio from stealing any of its business.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/stories/2010/03/08/story6.html

I ran across this article and saw that somehow nobody created this topic on UrbanOhio...the idea of a Lake Erie bridge has been around since the 1960s, with a bridge on the western side of the Lake using Kelly's Island and Pelee Island to Point Pelee by far the shortest and most feasible because the lake is very shallow in that area.  But connecting Cleveland with the Ontario shore in line with London would make a lot more sense.  I assume that the owner of the Ambassador Bridge and others would act to block Ohio from stealing any of its business.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/stories/2010/03/08/story6.html

 

Any bridge (or tunnel) across the lake is a dumb idea, especially one built at the far end of the lake. If one is ever going to be built, put it at the geographic middle of the lake where part of Long Point can be used to narrow the gap to only about 40 miles. Granted the lake is deeper there, but at least it's shorter. The south end would be just east of Conneaut and would be convenient for those going to Toronto from Cleveland AND Pittsburgh -- by high-speed train! Anything we can do to strengthen the economic and political ties with Canada will be a good thing. It will improve our chances of being annexed by Canada after the Western Reserve declares war on them, and then we surrender peacefully to join a civilized nation. ;)

 

Or maybe we just wait for our fertilizers and other pollutants to fill Lake Erie with more dead algae and for global warming to dry up the the most shallow parts of the lake. ;)

By some metrics Toronto has surpassed Chicago in size.  Creating a HSR link between Toronto and Ohio via a bridge or tunnel or bridge/tunnel would benefit Cleveland the most, and then also Columbus.  That route doesn't offer a huge distance savings for Cincinnati > Toronto vs. traveling through Detroit.  Maybe 50-75 miles.  But in the absence of a Detroit > Toronto link it could be a really fast trip from Cincinnati.

 

 

The ferry makes more sense than the bridge. And it should be implemented.

By some metrics Toronto has surpassed Chicago in size.  Creating a HSR link between Toronto and Ohio via a bridge or tunnel or bridge/tunnel would benefit Cleveland the most, and then also Columbus.  That route doesn't offer a huge distance savings for Cincinnati > Toronto vs. traveling through Detroit.  Maybe 50-75 miles.  But in the absence of a Detroit > Toronto link it could be a really fast trip from Cincinnati.

 

 

 

Would it surprise you that I'd mapped this route a year ago based on gradients of the line approaching the tunnel? :)

 

Here it is....

 

OVERVIEW

 

Toronto-Cleveland-Pittsburgh by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

NORTH TO SOUTH DETAILS

 

Toronto-Cleveland-Pittsburgh1 by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

Toronto-Cleveland-Pittsburgh2 by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

Toronto-Cleveland-Pittsburgh3 by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

Toronto-Cleveland-Pittsburgh4 by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

 

TUNNEL PORTAL AREAS (the landscape on the north side of Lake Erie is remarkably flat which allowed a straight shot coming out of the tunnel and still keeping gradients to about 1-3%, if I remember right):

 

Toronto-Cleveland-Pittsburgh-North1 by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

Toronto-Cleveland-Pittsburgh-South1 by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

The ferry makes more sense than the bridge. And it should be implemented.

Agree, a robust ferry schedule would be great.

The ferry makes more sense than the bridge. And it should be implemented.

Agree, a robust ferry schedule would be great.

Yes, it does make more sense, but at the same time, it needs to be quicker and more economical than driving.  I drive to Toronto in roughly 5.5 hours when I go. 

For the immediate lakeshore in Canada, this makes sense.  However, I honestly think it would cost me significantly more, and door to door, take more time.

The ferry makes more sense than the bridge. And it should be implemented.

Agree, a robust ferry schedule would be great.

Yes, it does make more sense, but at the same time, it needs to be quicker and more economical than driving.  I drive to Toronto in roughly 5.5 hours when I go. 

For the immediate lakeshore in Canada, this makes sense.  However, I honestly think it would cost me significantly more, and door to door, take more time.

Agree as well, needs to be faster than driving though saving a couple of hundred miles of wear and tear on your vehicle should be considered.

I would need to understand better the other types of Ferrys on the market that could be utilized.  Obviously can't be like the miller ferry.  When we take that to middle bass with the car the 4 mile trek across takes 40 minutes, lol, and it's expensive with the car too.  This trip looks to be about 40 miles.  Is there a ferry capable of holding cars that can do that in under 1 hour?

Also, as for a bridge, not sure what the maximum span requirement is for emergency purposes.

Is this proposal moving at all? Or is it still languishing?

 

Languishing. I haven't pushed it much lately after learning that it would probably required operating subsidies to be attractive to a potential service provider.

A direct ferry service to Canada would be awesome. You can actually already take a ferry to Canada from Sandusky. It's a fun weekend trip, bring a bike. First take the ferry from Sandusky to Pelee Island and spend a day biking around there. Then take the ferry from Pelee Island to Kingsville. Both run by the same company.

 

https://pelee.com/pelee-island-ferry-schedule/

 

You get dropped off near Point Pelee, a national park with lots of wetlands (you can rent kayaks). There's probably nothing to do in Kingsville but that and bike over to Colansanti's and play minigolf while eating donuts and head over to Birdie's Perch and eat poutine. But still, you made it to Canada!  :clap:

^ Pelee Island seems so tranquil. I've never been there but hope to go someday.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Express

 

80 miles in 2.5 hours means 40 miles in an hour and fifteen, not too shabby  8-)

A direct ferry service to Canada would be awesome. You can actually already take a ferry to Canada from Sandusky. It's a fun weekend trip, bring a bike. First take the ferry from Sandusky to Pelee Island and spend a day biking around there. Then take the ferry from Pelee Island to Kingsville. Both run by the same company.

 

https://pelee.com/pelee-island-ferry-schedule/

 

You get dropped off near Point Pelee, a national park with lots of wetlands (you can rent kayaks). There's probably nothing to do in Kingsville but that and bike over to Colansanti's and play minigolf while eating donuts and head over to Birdie's Perch and eat poutine. But still, you made it to Canada!  :clap:

 

If you do this, where do you show your passport? 

 

 

Cant see this idea as any more than a pipe dream. Besides a few tourists, I cant see it having much traction. How much drive time would it actually save? Seems like from Cleveland, it would be about the same time it would take to drive through Buffalo to get to Toronto. Outside of Cleveland, you figure most other parts of the state would drive or fly.

 

What would be the cost of the ticket? I cant imagine it would be too cheap. It may not be much more to fly to Toronto from CLE. Outside of the tourist population and a few wide eyed naïve millenials, I just don't see how it is practical or wise investment

 

If you do this' date=' where do you show your passport?[/quote']

 

At the port of entry on each side of the water (unless the CLE gets pre-clearance, in which case you'd clear US immigration in Canada.

 

Cant see this idea as any more than a pipe dream. Besides a few tourists, I cant see it having much traction. How much drive time would it actually save? Seems like from Cleveland, it would be about the same time it would take to drive through Buffalo to get to Toronto. Outside of Cleveland, you figure most other parts of the state would drive or fly.

 

What would be the cost of the ticket? I cant imagine it would be too cheap. It may not be much more to fly to Toronto from CLE. Outside of the tourist population and a few wide eyed naïve millenials, I just don't see how it is practical or wise investment

 

The ferry would carry passengers and freight. Thus all those trucks coming up I-71 from Cinci and Columbus and up 77 and from perhaps even PIT/Youngstown, all could use the ferry, which would take THOUSANDS of trucks off the highways like I-90 between Downtown CLE and Buffalo or between Downtown CLE and Detroit.  And yes, the ferry could take passengers as well, with or without a car.

 

The ferry is a great idea, not only for air quality and less highway wear and tear and improved safety, but would be a major economic booster for Cleveland.

 

 

 

The ferry would carry passengers and freight. Thus all those trucks coming up I-71 from Cinci and Columbus and up 77 and from perhaps even PIT/Youngstown, all could use the ferry, which would take THOUSANDS of trucks off the highways like I-90 between Downtown CLE and Buffalo or between Downtown CLE and Detroit.  And yes, the ferry could take passengers as well, with or without a car.

 

The ferry is a great idea, not only for air quality and less highway wear and tear and improved safety, but would be a major economic booster for Cleveland.

How fast do freight ferries travel? That sounds like a very long journey if it doubles as a freighter. Just like if you go to Put-in-Bay there is a faster more expensive passenger only boat or the slower more affordable option with added freight.

 

EDIT: A few here are listed with their speed. Most go 13-18mph and there's a super expensive looking one that can go 40mph.

 

https://www.steamshipauthority.com/about/vessels

How fast do freight ferries travel? That sounds like a very long journey if it doubles as a freighter. Just like if you go to Put-in-Bay there is a faster more expensive passenger only boat or the slower more affordable option with added freight.

 

EDIT: A few here are listed with their speed. Most go 13-18mph and there's a super expensive looking one that can go 40mph.

 

https://www.steamshipauthority.com/about/vessels

 

The new high-speed catamarans can carry hundreds of passengers and dozens of cars, as well as some light freight -- such as express package delivery vans.