^ The people who thought that the urban core was going to be a poor neighborhood and would never change in their lifetimes still think that, despite the fact that it's already changing. They are also the only people who still use that bridge, and are the ones fighting to keep it. It should be torn down, and the money that would have been spent to repair it should be used for pedestrian improvements on Central Parkway - which is a rather massive street to try to cross, and doesn't really need to be.

Like it or not, many people on which Music Hall relies, will not walk across Central Parkway. They would prefer to valet from the back side and many of them do. I have ferried more dowagers up Elm Street than I could count. My wife adopts them.

 

But, the bridge is also a bridge to the supporters. The Symphony  and the Ballet will find that out with lightning speed if the bridge is gone.

That's my prediction for what ultimately happens. Music Hall changed their plans to keep a rear entrance, which they originally planned to eliminate. The city will probably not pay to keep the skywalk. So anyone who is afraid to walk across the street, in OTR, in 2016, can valet and go directly into Music Hall where there can avoid the lesser classes.

Like it or not, many people on which Music Hall relies, will not walk across Central Parkway. They would prefer to valet from the back side and many of them do. I have ferried more dowagers up Elm Street than I could count. My wife adopts them.

 

But, the bridge is also a bridge to the supporters. The Symphony  and the Ballet will find that out with lightning speed if the bridge is gone.

 

Keep the skywalk. Next, Install fare machines to take tolls. We wil also need a promise from a foundation to cover operating costs not covered by tolls. After all, this is the new expectation some have set for any other public transportation, right?

 

Keep the skywalk. Next, Install fare machines to take tolls. We wil also need a promise from a foundation to cover operating costs not covered by tolls. After all, this is the new expectation some have set for any other public transportation, right?

 

^^I have no idea what is meant by this.  :wtf:

That's my prediction for what ultimately happens. Music Hall changed their plans to keep a rear entrance, which they originally planned to eliminate. The city will probably not pay to keep the skywalk. So anyone who is afraid to walk across the street, in OTR, in 2016, can valet and go directly into Music Hall where there can avoid the lesser classes.

 

I don't think it is fear. But, it is just not going to happen. I don't mean to sound like a snob, but there are a lot of my contemporaries who would not go anywhere that they might need an umbrella or shoe covers. And, valet is helpful but no solution. It works for 50 or 100 but that is about the limit after a performance.

 

 

It's a jab at how streetcar opponents insisted that the streetcar must "pay for itself" through fares, despite the fact that we hold no other project to such standard.

Gordon Bombay[/member] has published an excellent article talking about the proposed Queensgate II development. Most of it was never built, except for the Town Center Garage and the skywalk over Central Parkway connecting it to Music Hall. If you read some of the quotes that Ronny managed to dig up, you will see that there was not an optimistic view of the urban core at that point in time (1976). The manager of the development even said:

 

You are not going to entice middle income families in. You may get a racial mix-that is no problem-but you are not going to draw in middle income families. It is not going to happen in my lifetime. It is going to be a poor neighborhood. There are no ‘ifs’ and ‘ands’ and ‘buts’ about it.

 

The skywalk exists because it was part of the "urban renewal" fantasy to suburbanize our cities. It's anti-urban. It's not needed anymore. Tear it down.

 

Thanks for sharing the article! It's amazing how candid that project manager was and interesting that so many similar attitudes seem to abound in this city today.

 

^ The people who thought that the urban core was going to be a poor neighborhood and would never change in their lifetimes still think that, despite the fact that it's already changing. They are also the only people who still use that bridge, and are the ones fighting to keep it. It should be torn down, and the money that would have been spent to repair it should be used for pedestrian improvements on Central Parkway - which is a rather massive street to try to cross, and doesn't really need to be.

 

I wouldn't be surprised one bit if some random donors or benefactors pledge money to help keep it.

^ The people who thought that the urban core was going to be a poor neighborhood and would never change in their lifetimes still think that, despite the fact that it's already changing. They are also the only people who still use that bridge, and are the ones fighting to keep it. It should be torn down, and the money that would have been spent to repair it should be used for pedestrian improvements on Central Parkway - which is a rather massive street to try to cross, and doesn't really need to be.

 

I wouldn't be surprised one bit if some random donors or benefactors pledge money to help keep it.

 

That is certainly possible. However I have been hearing several rumors about the city and Music Hall making alternate plans that would be put into place if the skywalk were to be removed.

A fraction of the $4MM replacement cost could be used to calm traffic on central parkway and it would solve both issues.

Gordon Bombay[/member] has published an excellent article talking about the proposed Queensgate II development. Most of it was never built, except for the Town Center Garage and the skywalk over Central Parkway connecting it to Music Hall. If you read some of the quotes that Ronny managed to dig up, you will see that there was not an optimistic view of the urban core at that point in time (1976). The manager of the development even said:

 

You are not going to entice middle income families in. You may get a racial mix-that is no problem-but you are not going to draw in middle income families. It is not going to happen in my lifetime. It is going to be a poor neighborhood. There are no ‘ifs’ and ‘ands’ and ‘buts’ about it.

 

The skywalk exists because it was part of the "urban renewal" fantasy to suburbanize our cities. It's anti-urban. It's not needed anymore. Tear it down.

 

Thanks for sharing the article! It's amazing how candid that project manager was and interesting that so many similar attitudes seem to abound in this city today.

 

Grabbed a drone pic of it:

 

Cool! Is that a car parked in the bike lane though?

 

Cool! Is that a car parked in the bike lane though?

 

Looks like they were just stopping to let out a passenger.

Jay Hanselman of WVXU is tweeting about a new City report on the skywalk.

 

[*] Cost to remove bridge and move Music Hall-WCET link that's on the bridge: $566k

[*] Cost to repair bridge: $1.6m (this estimate was from Messer Construction and the city warns it may be too low)

 

And the garage itself is nearing the end of its life.

 

"...making a significant investment in the bridge would not be financially prudent given the deteriorating condition of the garage..."

 

"Administration will continue to collaborate with the Mayor, City Council, 3CDC and other stakeholders to find an economical, efficient solution that meets the needs of Music Hall patrons."

Tear the garage down, build a mixed use development with underground parking, and appease the old people who are too stubborn to use the front door by building a new skywalk as part of that development. Compromise but wind up with something much better than before.

Is there a basement? Could the Washington Park garage have an entrance into the basement somehow?

Is there a basement? Could the Washington Park garage have an entrance into the basement somehow?

 

There is a basement. See page 138: https://www.dropbox.com/s/t35q0dyy8db7h5e/HCB%20Agenda%20%26%20Materials%20No%20SR%204.4.16.pdf?dl=0

 

But an entrance into the basement would require a tunnel under Central Parkway which would be problematic ... since there's ALREADY A TUNNEL under Central Parkway. So, you'd have to dig a tunnel under that tunnel to avoid the water main. Long story short... I agree with jmicha[/member]: the best option is to tear that poorly designed garage down and let 3CDC (or another developer) build a mixed use development on the site.

Is there a basement? Could the Washington Park garage have an entrance into the basement somehow?

 

There is a basement. See page 138: https://www.dropbox.com/s/t35q0dyy8db7h5e/HCB%20Agenda%20%26%20Materials%20No%20SR%204.4.16.pdf?dl=0

 

But an entrance into the basement would require a tunnel under Central Parkway which would be problematic ... since there's ALREADY A TUNNEL under Central Parkway. So, you'd have to dig a tunnel under that tunnel to avoid the water main. Long story short... I agree with jmicha[/member]: the best option is to tear that poorly designed garage down and let 3CDC (or another developer) build a mixed use development on the site.

 

The road between Music Hall and Washington Park is Elm... not Central Pkwy

^whoops. I was talking about the garage on Central Parkway.

 

City resists replacing bridge to Music Hall after privately funded study

 

 

A longtime arts philanthropist has paid for a study of how much it would cost to repair the bridge from Music Hall to a city parking garage across Central Parkway, but the city believes the cost may end up being higher and still recommends its demolition.

 

More below:

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2016/11/03/city-resists-replacing-bridge-to-music-hall.html

“I think they’re making a mistake not repairing the bridge if that’s what they choose to do,” he said. “People are not going to put up with it. Eventually, what they’ll stop doing is coming to the symphony at all. I think the city’s active are counterproductive."

 

BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO WALK ACROSS THE $@#% STREET?

The city raised several potential solutions, including shuttling patrons from and to the various parking facilities in the area to the front entrance of Music Hall.

 

:-o

Go on an outing with a bunch of 90 year-olds and you'll see why they want the skywalk.  These people can barely get around, but they're sitting on tens of millions that the symphony wants their hands on.  Not that hard to figure out. 

Utilize the funding to repair the bridge to instead give the old farts free valet service. By the time that pot of money ran out they'd all be dead.

Isn't the distance of travel for the old people walking virtually the same with or without the bridge?  God forbid an elevator can't be installed to help them get to the street.  This isn't only about old people, it's about extremely lazy people that can't walk a city block without complaining.

Problem solved. It can also play EDM to discourage old people from lingering too long in the garage before the symphony in the opposite of the way that convenience stores play classical to discourage teen loitering.

It's sad to think that before the bridge, those over 75 just stayed home and did nothing. Tragic really. Honestly let's just cut to the chase here, it's Hannaford's fault. I can't believe he didn't have the foresight to just build a parking garage in Music Hall, then this whole thing wouldn't be an issue.

It's sad to think that before the bridge, those over 75 just stayed home and did nothing. Tragic really. Honestly let's just cut to the chase here, it's Hannaford's fault. I can't believe he didn't have the foresight to just build a parking garage in Music Hall, then this whole thing wouldn't be an issue.

 

Lol!

Problem solved. It can also play EDM to discourage old people from lingering too long in the garage before the symphony in the opposite of the way that convenience stores play classical to discourage teen loitering.

 

Watch out, that could turn into a bunch of old people GETTING DOWN like in a '90s sitcom.

It seems as though none of you know the old folks that keep this dead music alive. For my part, I find symphonic music boring in any form and excruciating in person. You couldn't give me a season ticket in the best spot in the house. I prefer a blue ray and an intermission when I feel like it.

 

But, the folks I have had to squire to the symphony are not walking down the street to get there. There may be a reason, if so I don't know it. But, I know it to be true.

 

And, without these folks the CSO is DOA.

 

You couldn't give me a season ticket in the best spot in the house. I prefer a blue ray and an intermission when I feel like it.

 

That's pretty sad man.

You couldn't give me a season ticket in the best spot in the house. I prefer a blue ray and an intermission when I feel like it.

 

That's pretty sad man.

 

And, I don't feel like symphonic music very often. At least when I had to attend to chauffeur my elders and their friends I could slip out for a smoke or chat up an usher or whatnot.

 

They refuse to slip into the past like all good genres that have run their course. I'd rather see big band or ragtime or jazz quartets be subsidized by the taxpayers than some boring European work.

Should we subsidize everything that old people with money enjoy just because they're old people with money?

No, we should have repurposed the hall for something profitable and used the what 150 million for something else.

Wow. Just because you don't like classical music does not mean Music Hall should be converted into something else. This conversation is officially ridiculous. I'm in my early 30s and I enjoy going to the symphony or opera just as much as going to a concert at the Woodward. Just because your taste in music has tunnel vision and classical music makes you cranky enough to keep posting about this, does not mean the historic building should be changed into something other than a music venue. I go to the CSO, the Pops, the opera, and soon the ballet at this location and will take my future children there as well. It's not just "old people" who enjoy this type of music. Many of us who play instruments and were classically trained really enjoy listening to the "boring European" music as much as any other genre of music. I enjoy jazz and big band just as much (in fact I had the Blue Wisp Big Band play at my wedding), but I do not think as a city we should just trash our historic symphony, opera, ballet, and May Festival. This would be equivalent to a "Cultural Urban Renewal" and is garbage.

Guys, don't feed the troll. He's clearly just here to get a rise out of people with idiotic comments. Not worth our time.

Haha well I am pretty certain they do have a lot of profitable concerts there.  No doubt there is much more played than just the symphony.  I can't wait to check out a concert there.  Wish I could have seen Prince play there.

We should appreciate our civic assets regardless of our own personal preferences and tastes. The CSO and Music Hall are recognized cultural assets. The skywalk however; is not.

I didn't oppose the renovation due to my personal preferences. I do not care for symphonic music, but that is not at all the reason.

 

The reason is that the CSO would not last a minute without the diversion of millions every year to prop it up. Some from taxes and grants, some from tax sheltered charitable contributions, some from bequests. For what purpose? Because you like the music?

 

But, one would be a moron to say that the CSO can support itself. Per their 990, their operating expenses were three times program revenues. So, its not just me. People voted with their wallets. CSO is dead money walking.

 

I think that $20,000,000.00 propping up a dead music genre might be better utilized elsewhere.

If I had to chose between propping up the CSO and propping up the Reds and the Bengals ... I'd say prop up the CSO.

I didn't oppose the renovation due to my personal preferences. I do not care for symphonic music, but that is not at all the reason.

 

The reason is that the CSO would not last a minute without the diversion of millions every year to prop it up. Some from taxes and grants, some from tax sheltered charitable contributions, some from bequests. For what purpose? Because you like the music?

 

But, one would be a moron to say that the CSO can support itself. Per their 990, their operating expenses were three times program revenues. So, its not just me. People voted with their wallets. CSO is dead money walking.

 

I think that $20,000,000.00 propping up a dead music genre might be better utilized elsewhere.

 

My point wasn't about your taste in music. It was the choice between a cultural asset and "something profitable." Sometimes some of the things we "prop" up whether it is with wealthy donors or taxes don't "turn a profit" in the conventional sense. Sometimes those benefits are intangible.

The CSO operates at a loss because they employ much better musicians and bring in much higher-caliber guest performers than a small city orchestra. 

I think all symphonies/orchestras "operate at a loss", if you only compare total expenses to ticket revenue. But that's a bit like saying "universities" operate at a loss because they don't cover all costs with tuition. Organizations that have (or are perceived to have) a social benefit can raise money from donations and government. You might not think that they have a social benefit, but the people who give their money (through donations and taxes) disagree. 

Music Hall's transformation begins to take shape

Janelle Gelfand , [email protected] 1:59 p.m. EST December 30, 2016

 

 

Halfway through its unprecedented, $135 million renovation, Music Hall’s transformation is beginning to take shape.

 

Earlier this month, officials from the Cincinnati Center City Development Corp., the renovation's project manager, took The Enquirer on a whirlwind tour of the construction site from the basement all the way up to the Rose Window. With construction crews working double shifts to get critical work completed, a large amount of progress can be seen in the historic Over-the-Rhine structure.

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2016/12/30/music-halls-transformation-begins-take-shape/94817346/

Anonymous donor gives $800k to save the pedestrian bridge:

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2017/01/05/donor-steps-forward-save-music-hall-pedestrian-bridge/96167578/

ugh

Okay, so we're going to spend $1.6 million to rehab that skywalk. What happens in 8 years when it comes time to rehab the garage? Is the city going to say, "Well, we just spent all that money rehabbing the skywalk, we might as well rehab the garage now"?

^At least the article makes it seem like the city would like to see a mixed use redevelopment of the garage. 

 

In addition, the future of the city-owned Town Center Garage and parking lot are also in question. The garage is adjacent to WCET and Cincinnati Public Radio studios.The city has long-term plans to develop that property, with the potential for offices and mixed use, but that kind of project will take many years to plan, Budig said.

Wiser heads prevailed.

 

Without the bridge, the opera was dead, the ballet was dead and maybe the symphony.

Wiser heads prevailed.

 

Without the bridge, the opera was dead, the ballet was dead and maybe the symphony.

I can't tell - are you being sarcastic, or is this crazy idea something that you actually believe?