According to WVXU's Jay Hanselman on Twitter, the Music Hall Revitalization Committee is no longer asking for the pedestrian skywalk to be replaced. The $1.6 million that a private donor had pledged towards the skywalk is no longer being offered. The city would have to pay the full cost, which is now estimated at between $6 and $8.2 million, if they chose to replace it.

 

Of course, the City Manage is now asking for "direction" from Council on what to do next. Any time City Council has ever passed a motion instructing the City Manager to do anything, he's ignored it. But now that he has to make a decision that'll anger wealthy octogenarians, he's seeking "direction" from Council (so he can tell the angry people to blame Council for not replacing their bridge).

For anyone who's been following along, it seemed clear that 3CDC wanted to demolish this skywalk from the very beginning and was quietly planning to do so until some of their Music Hall's found out about it and freaked out. Now it's finally public why...

 

City manager floats redevelopment project across from Music Hall

 

Black offered no details of the potential project except to say that it would “accommodate existing users of the site and provide a gateway between Over-the-Rhine and the West End.”

As can be seen here, there is plenty of space on this site to build something new without touching the existing studio building:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1084892,-84.5206293,374m/data=!3m1!1e3

As can be seen here, there is plenty of space on this site to build something new without touching the existing studio building:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1084892,-84.5206293,374m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

But is the studio building worth saving? It seems like an unfortunate design, so if 3CDC can put together a plan that rethinks that whole block, I doubt many tears would be shed over having that studio building demolished.

As can be seen here, there is plenty of space on this site to build something new without touching the existing studio building:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1084892,-84.5206293,374m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

But is the studio building worth saving? It seems like an unfortunate design, so if 3CDC can put together a plan that rethinks that whole block, I doubt many tears would be shed over having that studio building demolished.

 

Just guessing but it would probably cost a fortune to replace with all the equipment inside and satellite dishes on the roof

I don't think the fact that there's a radio/TV studio inside the building would make the relocation any more expensive than any other type of office building. The existing equipment could be moved into the new building, or more likely, they'd use the move as an excuse to update some older equipment that is probably showing its age anyway. The satellites on the roof are another story, they might be expensive to move.

 

From any architectural standpoint I don't know what makes more sense, demolishing the existing building and rebuilding the whole block, or just incorporating the existing building into the new development. You could put a new facade covering the entire building so the average person looking at it would never know it was two separate buildings. Obviously if you demolish the entire thing, you can spread the parking across the entire block where in the current configuration the parking is only in the U shape surrounding the Broadcast Center.

 

I am really curious to see what 3CDC has in mind when they say it will "provide a gateway between Over-the-Rhine and the West End.” They could do something really cool if they were able to turn the parking lot between Music Hall and Memorial Hall into some sort of plaza, which would lead to a mid-block crosswalk on Central Parkway, and over to the new development.

It would be great to see a plan developed for the entirely of the dead space from Court St. north to Ezzard Charles.  I have never seen any talk of moving the Charles St. substation, but there is obviously room for thousands of apartments to be built on the parking lots and in place of the substation. 

Does the FC cincy Stadium have anything to do with the potential project?

It would be great to see a plan developed for the entirely of the dead space from Court St. north to Ezzard Charles.  I have never seen any talk of moving the Charles St. substation, but there is obviously room for thousands of apartments to be built on the parking lots and in place of the substation.

 

Where would you move it to? I don't know much about substation technology, but I assume that a) its location needs to be near downtown (ie, you can't move it to Queensgate), and b) the cost of moving (even just a few blocks) would be prohibitively high. I can't think of anywhere near downtown that would be better for a substation that would justify the costs of moving. I assume the City would have to pay the relocation costs.

Does the FC cincy Stadium have anything to do with the potential project?

 

I doubt it. That block is only 350' wide, which isn't wide enough for a stadium. To fit a stadium there, you'd need to take Central Ave and most of the block to the west, which includes the Betts-Longworth Historic District. Just not a great spot for a stadium.

Oh, yea. Just what we need. Another stadium that will be used 15 times a year and frequented by maybe 5% of the residents of the Metro area in their lifetimes, and which will get some lavish tax reduction, or God forbid, an exemption entirely. But, you can count on the fact that someone up at UC will opine that the soccer fans will be shopping at Sak's and staying at the Cincinnatian, and dining at Jeff Ruby's (you know, just like those Cleveland fans who come to see the Bungals).

The existing CET building is a bit of a conundrum since it lies in the middle of the block and would probably be very expensive to rebuild. Because of sound proofing materials, walls with odd angles for sound reflection, required technology and all the other issues that studio and recording spaces require I do think it would be prohibitively expensive to relocate or rebuild. More likely would probably be to renovate the facade facing central parkway and build a 'U' shaped building around it on three sides, with a few levels of parking underneath to replace/expand the existing deteriorating garage.

They will probably relocate to the hills like all the other TV and radio stations did.

Does the FC cincy Stadium have anything to do with the potential project?

 

I doubt it. That block is only 350' wide, which isn't wide enough for a stadium. To fit a stadium there, you'd need to take Central Ave and most of the block to the west, which includes the Betts-Longworth Historic District. Just not a great spot for a stadium.

 

I was thinking more along the lines of new parking garage to support the stadium.

Oh, yea. Just what we need. Another stadium that will be used 15 times a year and frequented by maybe 5% of the residents of the Metro area in their lifetimes, and which will get some lavish tax reduction, or God forbid, an exemption entirely. But, you can count on the fact that someone up at UC will opine that the soccer fans will be shopping at Sak's and staying at the Cincinnatian, and dining at Jeff Ruby's (you know, just like those Cleveland fans who come to see the Bungals).

 

you got a lot of hate in your heart. Let it out man.

I'd love to see someone come up with a map of how they could re-develop that lot.

 

It seemed townhomes lining up on the north side of 12th or three story apartments, transition on Central Parkway to 4 to 5 stories lining Central Parkway as offices / apartments.

 

Offices / Apartments 4 stories tall facing Central Avenue.

 

Parking ramp situated hidden behind all these at 4 or 5 stories tall.  Maybe an opening for Pedestrian pull through on each sides of the ramp connecting with Clark Street.

 

This would probably be a 2 phase development with the second phase north of the CET building with an 8 story or so office / apartment / condo at the SW corner of Central Parkway and Ezzard Charles.

 

If done right, this would really connect the West End with OTR and hopefully set off a lot of development in this corridor connecting to the two neighborhoods as others have mentioned.

I have a very hard time believing they're going to develop that land and not knock down the CET building. 

The existing CET building is a bit of a conundrum since it lies in the middle of the block and would probably be very expensive to rebuild. Because of sound proofing materials, walls with odd angles for sound reflection, required technology and all the other issues that studio and recording spaces require I do think it would be prohibitively expensive to relocate or rebuild. More likely would probably be to renovate the facade facing central parkway and build a 'U' shaped building around it on three sides, with a few levels of parking underneath to replace/expand the existing deteriorating garage.

 

I'll admit that I have not been inside the WVXU radio studios, but most radio studios I have been inside are just standard rectangular rooms with some soundproofing on the walls... maybe they have a slightly odd shape (like 1 curved or angled wall) to add to the diffusion of sound, but nothing too architecturally crazy. Recording studios for music, on the other hand, are designed with all sorts of weird angles so that they do not have parallel walls and therefore do not have certain frequencies that resonate in the room, and use different building materials to change the characteristic of the sound. Designing a studio to capture musical performances on a wide variety of instruments is far more complicated than designing a room where you're mostly recording people talking closely into microphones.

They will probably relocate to the hills like all the other TV and radio stations did.

 

If they needed to completely knock down the existing building and rebuild that block, WVXU could probably broadcast temporarily from another radio studio in the area, like Clear Channel's facility in Kenwood. I honestly don't even know if WCET airs any locally produced programming on a regular basis, but if so, surely they could use one of the local TV station's studios for a few months while their new home is built.

They should maximize the height of the project along Central Parkway. Go 12 stories or go home! :-P

It would be great to see a plan developed for the entirely of the dead space from Court St. north to Ezzard Charles.  I have never seen any talk of moving the Charles St. substation, but there is obviously room for thousands of apartments to be built on the parking lots and in place of the substation.

 

Where would you move it to? I don't know much about substation technology, but I assume that a) its location needs to be near downtown (ie, you can't move it to Queensgate), and b) the cost of moving (even just a few blocks) would be prohibitively high. I can't think of anywhere near downtown that would be better for a substation that would justify the costs of moving. I assume the City would have to pay the relocation costs.

 

I also think this would be prohibitively expensive to move completely. I wonder if they could move just the equipment they have on the north side of Charles Street however? (Or move it underneath a new garage structure or something?) Having that there is so ugly that it limits your options for what you can do on the north side of 12th Street.

It's the only substation I can think of that has no above-ground transmission lines serving it.  Yeah there's ones out there where the distribution wires leave the substation underground, but the higher voltage transmission lines usually come in from overhead.  I'm sure that would elevate the cost of relocating it depending on where the transmission lines come from. 

But without the Charles Town Center at the Queensgate II Center (!?!), how will people know they are near the town (using the logic from the article)? Reading old Cincinnati magazines you really get a sense of why things went the way they did for redevelopment in urban Cincinnati. Lots of adds for new business sites with plenty of parking in the suburba and and people pondering what to do with vast swaths of urban fabric like a monoploy game. Apparently the area was build by Urban Design Associates back in the day and got national recognition at the time (hence the desire to build more fortified urban bunkers).

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=n8VyCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA471&dq=queensgate+II+town+center&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjC-Nms5LHWAhXKdSYKHbSdAFEQ6AEIJjAA#v=onepage&q=queensgate%20II%20town%20center&f=false

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=pldUAAAAMAAJ&q=queensgate+II+town+center&dq=queensgate+II+town+center&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjC-Nms5LHWAhXKdSYKHbSdAFEQ6AEILzAC

Dumb question time: Does it have to move, or could you just build out a two-three story parking garage adjacent to the south (bound by Plum, Court and Central) and just encapsulate it in a 4 hour rated concrete podium along with the garage? Above that podium you could do 6+ stories of residential. Might be cheaper than moving the whole thing.

Here is a recent underground substation project:

http://www.publicpower.org/Media/weekly/ArticleDetail.cfm?ItemNumber=17790

 

More often, urban substations are integrated into parking garages or the ground floor of skycrapers.  That's pretty common in New York City. 

 

Obviously, a new substation could be built as part of a project either north or south of the existing one without interrupting service. 

 

 

Woah, i just read a comment that the clock in the amphitheater is a clock from the back wall mural of Union Terminal! It does look art deco, but i never knew this other than a comment on this article. We need to get that puppy back home while they are remodeling the Terminal. Also they have the mural clocks too at fenton rigging. It could be a forgotten artifact that needs to be saved if they redo that corner.

 

 

 

https://cincinnatiideas.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/img_0053.jpg?w=652&h=489  https://cincinnatiideas.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/img_0053.jpg?w=652&h=489

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2014/11/01/union-terminal-mural-clocks-found-still-marking-time/18356367/

 

Oops: Edited to add the site i found this at. https://cincinnatiideas.com/2016/08/15/reconnecting-the-west-end/

 

They should maximize the height of the project along Central Parkway. Go 12 stories or go home! :-P

 

I would hate to see a tower looming over Music Hall. I'd be fine with a 5-6 story building there. Plenty of other places to go high that wouldn't ruin the views of an iconic building.

To be fair, this is the view from 14th and Elm looking west. The Monster building is a very tall 6/7 stories, and looks like it's barely peaking out from behind the buildings in the foreground.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1101295,-84.5183478,3a,75y,252.95h,101.03t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8qOfXKTJpYnNckgwlsRpNg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

You could easily put a modern 8 story building behind Music Hall. I'd advocate for higher elsewhere along the parkway.

They should maximize the height of the project along Central Parkway. Go 12 stories or go home! :-P

 

I would hate to see a tower looming over Music Hall. I'd be fine with a 5-6 story building there. Plenty of other places to go high that wouldn't ruin the views of an iconic building.

 

Okay, so a 135 ft building on one side of a 125ft wide street will block the back end of a building that fronts Elm Street... and that is somehow bad...

They should maximize the height of the project along Central Parkway. Go 12 stories or go home! :-P

 

I would hate to see a tower looming over Music Hall. I'd be fine with a 5-6 story building there. Plenty of other places to go high that wouldn't ruin the views of an iconic building.

 

Okay, so a 135 ft building on one side of a 125ft wide street will block the back end of a building that fronts Elm Street... and that is somehow bad...

 

Would you be able to see the 135 foot building from, say, Washington Park? That is the view I am talking about. There is no context for a 12 story building there. The 6 story building north of the CPD HQ is the largest and tallest structure in the area that isn't Music Hall. You think it would be appropriate to put in a building double that size right there? There is a beautiful little neighborhood of 2-3 story buildings directly adjacent to this site. 12 stories is inappropriate.

^Isn't the Central Parkway YMCA like 9 stories?

 

EDIT: Nevermind. Thought someone was arguing that a 6 story limit should be on Central Parkway as a whole. I wouldn't want a tower to be able to be seen behind Music Hall from Race.

Whats with all the height hate anyway? I really don't understand why people don't like verticality, and I don't see historic precedent as a good reason, as I'm sure plenty of people in the past would have loved the chance to grow upwards had it not been for technological restrictions. Also it's not as if the short buildings we get are anything special.

Just modeled a gray building at 135 ft on the site. Can you see it from Washington Park?

I'm afraid that this site is going to be given away to a Cranley donor.  So don't get your hopes up.  We'll see something like the crappy apartments at Oakley Station if we're lucky.  If we're unlucky, it will be a Vandercaar strip mall.  They'll get a free parking garage regardless.   

Lol if a vandercar strip mall went there i would go to the ribbon cutting and lol the whole time.

Dumb question time: Does it have to move, or could you just build out a two-three story parking garage adjacent to the south (bound by Plum, Court and Central) and just encapsulate it in a 4 hour rated concrete podium along with the garage? Above that podium you could do 6+ stories of residential. Might be cheaper than moving the whole thing.

 

That makes much more sense than moving it.

Anybody know where this space is and what it will be used for? I don't recognize it and the pitched ceiling is a bit odd since there isn't any part of the exterior roof that has that shape:

 

Woah, i just read a comment that the clock in the amphitheater is a clock from the back wall mural of Union Terminal! It does look art deco, but i never knew this other than a comment on this article. We need to get that puppy back home while they are remodeling the Terminal. Also they have the mural clocks too at fenton rigging. It could be a forgotten artifact that needs to be saved if they redo that corner.

 

 

 

https://cincinnatiideas.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/img_0053.jpg?w=652&h=489  https://cincinnatiideas.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/img_0053.jpg?w=652&h=489

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2014/11/01/union-terminal-mural-clocks-found-still-marking-time/18356367/

 

Oops: Edited to add the site i found this at. https://cincinnatiideas.com/2016/08/15/reconnecting-the-west-end/

 

 

 

Probably just a coincidence, but this makes me very happy!!! The clock may return home, and the public is aware what it is now.  Yea!!!

 

http://local12.com/news/local/museum-center-wants-clock-returned-as-part-of-restoration

 

Get an up-close look at Music Hall's $143M renovation: PHOTOS

By Erin Caproni  –  Digital Producer, Cincinnati Business Courier

 

 

Music Hall will open its doors to the public once again this weekend after a nearly two-year renovation.

 

The Courier got an early look at the completion of the $143 million project. To see some of the details, click on the attached slideshow.

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2017/10/05/get-an-up-close-look-at-music-halls-143m.html

I've been looking at the photos of the renovated Music Hall, and I don't think it really looks all that different or better. Don't get me wrong, the building looks nice as it always did, it just doesn't seem all that different than before. I guess some of the biggest components of the renovation were more structural than something that would be instantly noticeable.

I've been looking at the photos of the renovated Music Hall, and I don't think it really looks all that different or better. Don't get me wrong, the building looks nice as it always did, it just doesn't seem all that different than before. I guess some of the biggest components of the renovation were more structural than something that would be instantly noticeable.

 

I know what you mean, but if you took a walk-thru before the renovation and looked at the actual worn out condition of the facility and all of its systems and insensitive alterations, you can definitely tell a difference.

 

The biggest visual changes are probably the reopened windows, changes to the main entryway (removing that weird added porch thing), and restoration of Corbett Tower including unveiling the stenciled ceiling.

^I haven't gone through the renovated structure (was out of town Sat for the free tour, dang it!!!), but had been through the older structure and it was definitely very worn.

 

I kind of compare it to the Taft Theatre worn out kind of way, maybe it was worse.

 

Speaking of which, I think at some point we need to get the Taft Theatre renovated as well, it is showing it's age but is an amazing facility in it's own right.

The interior of the main auditorium is also dramatically different. The new stage juts out much more into the auditorium. And they've removed a lot of the rear seats of the auditorium, so it's smaller and more intimate (and apparently has better sound). Perhaps it's not obvious in the pictures, but it makes a big difference in person.

I've been looking at the photos of the renovated Music Hall, and I don't think it really looks all that different or better. Don't get me wrong, the building looks nice as it always did, it just doesn't seem all that different than before. I guess some of the biggest components of the renovation were more structural than something that would be instantly noticeable.

 

I know what you mean, but if you took a walk-thru before the renovation and looked at the actual worn out condition of the facility and all of its systems and insensitive alterations, you can definitely tell a difference.

 

The biggest visual changes are probably the reopened windows, changes to the main entryway (removing that weird added porch thing), and restoration of Corbett Tower including unveiling the stenciled ceiling.

 

Agreed. The streetscape in front of Music Hall has been dramatically improved as well. In addition to the "porch" that was removed, the concrete ramp was removed since there is now an accessible entrance at sidewalk level. Those "Queensgate II" era black pillars were also removed, allowing for a much less obstructed view of Music Hall.

 

I wasn't extremely familiar with the interior of Music Hall pre-renovation, having only attended 2 or 3 events there, but looking at 3CDC's photo gallery on Flickr, there were a lot of outdated areas that were dramatically improved as well. Any time you can remove drop ceiling and unveil the original high ceilings in a historic building, that's a huge win.

I did one of the ghost tours right before it closed a few years back and was shocked at the back room areas where the prop/stage decor shop and dressing rooms were. Really looked like they were supercrowded and repurposing way out of date and ill purposed spaces to the best use possible but I bet it made a bad impression to the visiting artists. The little back stage lounge area was cool but looked more fitting in a theme bar or someones cool rec room, not a world class performance center. I'm betting 3/4 of the budget went to hidden and back of house things with the public spaces being icing on the cake. For all that was done and the speed it was finished it seems to be money well spent.

 

Yeah, the Music Hall renovation seem to go pretty quickly. I think the Union Terminal renovation was started around the same time but that won't be done until fall 2018.

Former conductor Jesus Lopez-Cobos has died:

 

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2018/03/02/cincinnati-symphony-orchestra-mourning-loss-former-music-director-jesus-lopez-cobos/388914002/

Music Hall pre- and post-renovation:

 

 

^Amazing transformation. Thanks for the before and after!

 

They missed one window, four over from the north end of the building. :/

 

Think back even longer to when Washington Park school blocked half of this view--so many of the right things have happened.

 

 

Some of the windows were originally bricked in by design. No idea if that one you're calling out is one of them, but at the very least it isn't without historic precedent.

 

Not that I'm complaining about the amazing transformation since it's stunning, but I do with they could have restored all the roof ornamentation that was removed over the years. That would have just been the cherry on top of an amazing restoration.

 

I can't wait to see it in person again. I miss walking by it everyday.