That's weird. Greiwe is a big downtown booster and streetcar supporter so I don't know why he couldn't make this one work. This seems like a weird part of Cincinnati's real estate market that I don't quite understand...people don't want to put a down payment for a "theoretical" condo tower that doesn't exist yet, and developers don't want to build a building for which they don't have guaranteed occupants. But if he just took a risk and built it...people would step up and buy the units once they could see them.

That's weird. Greiwe is a big downtown booster and streetcar supporter so I don't know why he couldn't make this one work. This seems like a weird part of Cincinnati's real estate market that I don't quite understand...people don't want to put a down payment for a "theoretical" condo tower that doesn't exist yet, and developers don't want to build a building for which they don't have guaranteed occupants. But if he just took a risk and built it...people would step up and buy the units once they could see them.

 

maybe... I remember there was a condo project built on spec. in Mt. Adams with amazing views of downtown that sat vacant for years these were high end units similar to the above project.

To be fair that building (The Palisades) was built RIGHT as the market crashed and many of the units were unfinished when being listed. Not exactly a recipe for success.

 

Overall I'm actually way more excited about the prospect of 127 apartments ranging from micros to efficient 2 bedrooms instead of the 30 or so luxury apartments Greiwe was planning here. That's way better density and will likely mean higher profit margins per square foot. Luxury is great in cities that can command obnoxious price/square foot, but Cincy isn't there. Regular units are generally more profitable en masse like this (at least from what I've heard from developers).

 

I'm sort of disappointed they kept the curb cut to achieve a tiny ass indoor parking lot. C'mon, go all the way! Use that space for retail or something. Do 5 spots really make a stitch of difference  to the parking needs of Downtown?

I believe that all of almost all of the Palisades units have sold.  Most of them were still unsold through 2012 and 2013. 

When this project was initially announced, I instantly thought about the Pallisades project in Mt. Adams.  I'm sure all the banks did too.  Irregardless of who is president, the economy is overdue for a downturn and a massive high-end condo building is a huge risk.

 

I agree, the micro-apartments will do so much more for downtown.  Pack the CBD with YPs now and let the rich people move in later. 

Does the rendering change at all or are they just reconfiguring the inside to fit the rendering?

^ Looks pretty much the same to me. It's on page 59 of the packet.

 

My question is, what happens to the second tower across the street in the vacant lot next to the Deskey building?

That's weird. Greiwe is a big downtown booster and streetcar supporter so I don't know why he couldn't make this one work. This seems like a weird part of Cincinnati's real estate market that I don't quite understand...people don't want to put a down payment for a "theoretical" condo tower that doesn't exist yet, and developers don't want to build a building for which they don't have guaranteed occupants. But if he just took a risk and built it...people would step up and buy the units once they could see them.

 

That's the inherent quandary developers face in many cities... build it as condos and get your money "up front" (hopefully) or build apartments, get it filled then sell the building or even #3 keep the building and be the landlord and receive money in perpetuity.

^When you got a bunch of partners, which I am not certain if Greiwe does or not, when they see the sales aren't pumping in right away, they probably get nervous and pull out of the partnership on that particular project right away.

 

Seemed pretty quick for them to pull out but that might have been the case here.

 

Also, with apartments, they probably didn't want to sit on the cash that long to re-coup the costs and then up to a point where they can sell it for a hefty margin, basically exactly what you said but spread to 10 different people with 10 different personalities and 10 different amounts of wealth.

Apartments might replace proposed downtown Cincinnati condo tower

 

Apartments might replace a planned $36 million condominium project in downtown Cincinnati.

 

More below:

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2017/03/13/exclusive-apartments-might-replace-proposed.html

^That was a little depressing. The article said they needed $590/sq. ft. to make the condo project work, whereas downtown condos are currently getting around $400.

 

That is such a large gap, I'm sort of amazed that the design team had to take this long (and so much work) to arrive at this conclusion. Were they thinking that the downtown market would spike that high by now?

^They didn't get the handout from the city ($$$) they wanted so they took their ball and went home.

I thought it was a bit weird to have condos on that corner without a garage for parking. If I were buying a condo, I would expect to have parking. Not so much for an apartment. Plus apartment dwellers in cities are younger and can deal without a car much better. If I am going to pay close to $500k for 800 sq ft. I would expect a parking spot.

I seem to remember reading at one point that if they could get help from the City, they could set a new "bar" for pricing around $500 per square foot, which would help other developers in gauging pricing for new projects downtown.  However, since the real numbers showed $590 per square foot and the city wasn't willing to help out, then they had to scrap it.

 

Too bad, I hope Greiwe isn't turned off by downtown and takes a look at some other spots downtown for some condos

Having a building that is 1/3 parking garage and only has 30 units to offset the costs of building a new tower is problematic in a market like Cincinnati's. Having a fully occupied building with 4x the units will definitely work out nicer for the new developer.

 

We really need to get on the "condo but with no attached parking" trend. It works fine in other places and we need to push for it. Parking garages in towers are insanely expensive to build.

I love the fact that they want to include microapartments in this new plan. (Strangely this wasn't mentioned in the Business Courier article, but if you pull up the HCB packet, you can see the plan.) This is exactly what downtown needs right now -- small apartments for people who want a cheaper living space and will spend most of their time out in the city anyway. Right now, too many developers are building big apartments in the urban core and potential renters are getting spooked by the high costs, especially when rents are still dirt cheap in surrounding neighborhood and Northern Kentucky.

Seriously. It seems like all the big developers think the only thing they should be building are single family townhomes or large luxury units. Which in a market like Cincinnati generally don't have the highest profit/square foot. A building filled with smaller units does more for the core than one filled with luxury units and will make it easier to get a good ROI.

 

Plus, as much as I think we need more condos, rentals mean there's less of a chance of financing falling through since banks aren't going to be looking for presales like they would with a building like the one Greiwe planned.

 

I never did multifamily work while in Cincinnati. Does anyone know if the code has density regulations? Here in NYC you can build as small as you want but you have to average a certain square footage. So if you have a building that's 10,000 square feet and you have a Dwelling Unit Factor of 680 (the lowest amount of any of the residential districts) the most units you could have is 14. You could do 13 micro units of 230 square feet (about as small as you can get to fit within spatial regulations for certain rooms in NYC) but that 14th unit would need to be about 3,000 square feet to make up the difference to average out to the necessary amount.

 

Does Cincinnati have something like that in place?

^ Whether it is in place or not, is the Cincy market ready to support a micro unit?  To build a 230 sq ft micro unit new, the rents would still have to be somewhere in the $500-700 range (new construction). I imagine a larger studio or one bed in a place like Plum St Lofts or another building like that would not rent for much more than the brand new micro unit.

It's easier to finance and faster to construct single-family homes than any sort of multi-family, be it apartments or condos. An established developer can get the construction loans to throw up five houses as easily as the average person can get a credit card with a $3,000 limit.  Towne and the rest will make 20%+ on those homes on and near Elm St.  It's shooting fish in a barrel for an established company. 

^ Whether it is in place or not, is the Cincy market ready to support a micro unit?  To build a 230 sq ft micro unit new, the rents would still have to be somewhere in the $500-700 range (new construction). I imagine a larger studio or one bed in a place like Plum St Lofts or another building like that would not rent for much more than the brand new micro unit.

 

I guess we'll have to wait for some of these units to come on the market and see. Based on the success of these units in other cities, and some anecdotes that some members of this forum have posted, it seems like there is at least some demand. Here's what Jim Uber posted in another thread:

 

Incidentally, to anyone who is interested in developing a property in OTR, after my (first time) experience entering the rental market as a landlord, there is surprising pressure for good quality and inexpensive 1-BR units in OTR (<=$800/month). I think this is likely to be true whether south of Liberty or near Findlay market. I mean, you put the listing out there and you better allocate the better part of your next few days interacting with people.

 

So you may be thinking that this is obvious. But where this takes me - and I hadn't really realized it - is that we should be prioritizing the development of many, many more small units than are being done now, so that the above price point works. For example if you need to rent for $2/sq. ft. to make the project a good one, then I think that 400 sq. ft. units would rent no problem at all. Good people just want to live here, and they have budget constraints, but they care a lot less about how much space they have. I was originally a little nervous about showing 500 sq. ft. apartments and they were by far the most popular and I never had one person say it was small.

 

And the quality of tenants looking for that type of unit seems high. I met many people in their 20s who were just starting out and making maybe $3,000 a month, had some student loans, and they wanted flexibility in their budget to save and do other things. It was really refreshing. A few people even came with their parents! I mean, a gaggle of mom and pop and siblings who had lived forever in the suburbs and now being pulled out into the world by their 22 year old who just finished college.

 

Anyway, if I were to be looking for properties to redevelop right now in OTR, I'd be looking for buildings that lent themselves to mostly 350-450 sq. ft. units, put in nice finishes, and rent them for $1.75-$2/ft. OTR will be a better place with a lot more of those units and a lot more of those people that would flock to fill them.

^ outside of NYC, San Fran and DC, do you know of other areas where micro units may be working?

 

I would be interested to see if they are being built in more peer markets like Minneapolis, Charlotte, Columbus, Nashville, etc.

I'm curious how big these "micro units" will actually be. Because 400 square foot studios don't really have any issues in OTR or Downtown. My building had 12 studios all under 470 square feet and were sold out before the one or two bedroom units.

 

The 400 square foot studio in Parvis was renting for 800-900/month. And when I toured there (not looking for a place so I wasn't trying to just be sold on demand) the guy from 3CDC mentioned that it was one of the most sought after units in the building.

 

There are a near endless stream of young people who have no desire for a big residence or to own many things. These types of units are perfect for them.

Intuitively, a brand new 350-450 sf apartment in the $600-$900/month range should work well in CBD/OTR. At that size you can still get some psychological separation between "living" and "sleeping" areas. You might be able to justify even higher prices if the building itself has some extra amenities. Throw in a storage unit and you don't even really have to commit to the minimalist lifestyle. Going down to 250 sf is a real lifestyle commitment.

I just checked the submitted plans. The "micro" units are 450+ square feet. They should have no trouble at all renting those.

At 400+ square feet isn't "studio" or "efficiency" a better term than "micro"?  Seems "micro" might scare a lot of people off. 

Yeah for sure. Because most studios are in the 400-500 square foot studio in OTR or Downtown anyway. Micro implies something significantly smaller than the norm. Most of the time it is defined as something below 400 square feet, normally in the 250-350 square foot range. A range that requires the combination of daily-use spaces such as living/sleeping or living/dining or living/sleeping/dining. A 450 square foot studio allows for all three to happen separately if you so choose and it still won't feel cramped. I'd know as I lived in a 468 square foot studio and there was plenty of room left over but it still had a sleeping area, a four person dining table, and a living area that had a couch and two side chairs. That amount of space is very livable for an individual or two people who have no problem being with each other 100% of the time.

I've lived in situations where I had to spend all of my time in only one or two rooms. It drove me nuts after awhile.

3CDC is tying out some "micro" condos in OTR, in the 500- to 600-square-foot range.

Shoot my old apartment in Clifton Colony was like 550 SF and it was a pretty generous 1-bedroom.  Nothing micro about it.

600 square feet is such a typical square footage for a one bedroom...that's not micro at all. I just laid out a 234 square foot studio in a building today. THAT is micro.

600 square feet is such a typical square footage for a one bedroom...that's not micro at all. I just laid out a 234 square foot studio in a building today. THAT is micro.

 

are you an architect?

Yeah. I finished grad school in 2014, worked for a couple years full time in Cincy and moved to NYC in June and work in Manhattan now.

I enjoy your perspective

Cool! Glad my presence here is viewed favorably by someone haha.

 

These forums are how I live vicariously in Cincinnati and Cleveland since I don't get to see them that often anymore. And developments like this one are still exciting to see happening and evolving even if they won't be a part of my day to day life.

North American Properties buys downtown building for development

 

North American Properties has purchased a downtown Cincinnati building for a potential apartment development.

 

North American Properties purchased 711 and 719 Main St. from Elka Real Estate Co. Ltd. for $860,500, according to property records. The downtown-based commercial real estate company paid cash for the building and adjacent parking lot.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2017/08/02/exclusive-north-american-properties-buys-downtown.html

That's good news this isn't dead would love to see that in that corner would really work well

Though I'd be sad to see the Donato's building go since it's a nice scale and could be a good contributor if the upper floors were occupied, a 14 and a 15 story building coming to Main Street may be worth it.

 

I've been hearing rumblings about these for awhile now but nothing official enough to get excited. Do you have a source?

Though I'd be sad to see the Donato's building go since it's a nice scale and could be a good contributor if the upper floors were occupied, a 14 and a 15 story building coming to Main Street may be worth it.

 

I've been hearing rumblings about these for awhile now but nothing official enough to get excited. Do you have a source?

 

I have been in this building on a couple of site surveys, The building is so cut up from different users and programs,  the floor heights are extremely low that it would have been difficult to reuse the building. The upper floors do not meet any building or fire codes. The original owners looked at a number of scenarios and with the age of the building it would have taken a massive construction overhaul, and an expensive cost to make the building viable on the upper floors. Grant it that the building is historical, but the proposed project will be a nice swap out compared to Joseph's tear it down and build a "park" plan.

Though I'd be sad to see the Donato's building go since it's a nice scale and could be a good contributor if the upper floors were occupied, a 14 and a 15 story building coming to Main Street may be worth it.

 

I've been hearing rumblings about these for awhile now but nothing official enough to get excited. Do you have a source?

 

Welcome to the forum!

 

If you go back through this thread you will see all the different iterations this project has went through. It actually went in front of Historic Conservation Board and got approved, although the plan was for condos at that point. Then another developer took over and wanted to do apartments but within the exact same building footprint. The sale of the land a few days ago shows that the project is still moving forward to some degree.

Though I'd be sad to see the Donato's building go since it's a nice scale and could be a good contributor if the upper floors were occupied, a 14 and a 15 story building coming to Main Street may be worth it.

 

I've been hearing rumblings about these for awhile now but nothing official enough to get excited. Do you have a source?

 

Welcome to the forum!

 

If you go back through this thread you will see all the different iterations this project has went through. It actually went in front of Historic Conservation Board and got approved, although the plan was for condos at that point. Then another developer took over and wanted to do apartments but within the exact same building footprint. The sale of the land a few days ago shows that the project is still moving forward to some degree.

 

I think it shows that it is going forward at a much higher certainly then "some degree". The question is: what is "it". No developer is going to buy that building if they don't have some sort of plan for it. In it's current state it looses money every month, according to the current owner. Something will happen there now that a developer has bought the building.

^ Is the Kaplan family, who owned the Donato's bldg. seemingly forever, contending that it loses money or is it NorthAmerican Properties? 

 

If it's the Kaplans, I suppose if the property taxes are high (too lazy to check) that's possible, but I know from years of observation that the they did THE bare minimum, if even that, when it came to maintenance.  They really really neglected it.  Without knowing the rent they pay, I suspect the Donato's lease was the best thing to happen to that bldg. in decades, once the old Kay Furniture Store (a Kaplan family enterprise) went out of business 30+/- years ago.  On the other hand, if it's NorthAmerican making the claim, it makes sense since they apparently paid over $800,000 for it. 

 

Does anyone know when the Donato's lease expires, or if NorthAmerican plans to buy out the remainder of the term?

This might be overly trivial of me to mention (sorry I'm still new here), but North American Properties seems to have applied for a demo/new building permit for the southwest corner of 8th and Main, 721 Main Street. That was February 5th, so it seems like things are indeed moving along here.

 

Here's the link: https://cagis.hamilton-co.org/opal/apd.aspx?QSPerm=2018P01085

 

 

^Thanks for the update.  That is great news there!

This might be overly trivial of me to mention (sorry I'm still new here), but North American Properties seems to have applied for a demo/new building permit for the southwest corner of 8th and Main, 721 Main Street. That was February 5th, so it seems like things are indeed moving along here.

 

Here's the link: https://cagis.hamilton-co.org/opal/apd.aspx?QSPerm=2018P01085

That is a good sign that the project is moving forward. In the past, the developer promised to not tear down the existing building until all financing/details were in place to begin construction on new building.

The demo permit, along with two permits for foundation and tower work have been approved by the City.

 

My best guess is Donato's will be out in a few months and the building will be down by the end of summer.

Great news, hopefully this sparks some development more development.

Any news on when this project will start?

Hearing that Donatos last day is Monday and building demolition will begin on September 1.

The demo permit, along with two permits for foundation and tower work have been approved by the City.

 

My best guess is Donato's will be out in a few months and the building will be down by the end of summer.

 

Hope they have the financing for the new construction lined up and locked in.

Hope they have the financing for the new construction lined up and locked in.

 

Yeah, I don't think that we should ever be permitting the demolition of historic buildings if the financing isn't essentially locked in escrow.  But I have little faith that this is what is going on.