^I don't know that I disagree with their assessment.  Things have changed since the 90's with the Warehouse district, East 4th, West 25th and now the Flats East Bank all competing for entertainment nearby, areas that didn't exists or where not as robust back in the flats heydey.  What's not in the area, particularly the west bank, is a corporate use and hotel.  Just like we express concern at over retailing in the suburbs (271 in particular) I'd also be concerned about over emphasizing entertainment.  I think a project like this brings a variety to the area and compliments, rather than competes, with the development across the river.  Office and hotel use across the river will feed the water taxi to entertainment east.  Plus as someone mentioned it looks like there's still access to a public boardwalk that connects entertainment options on either side of the development...Nautica to the south and the Shooters building to the north. 

^I don't know that I disagree with their assessment.  Things have changed since the 90's with the Warehouse district, East 4th, West 25th and now the Flats East Bank all competing for entertainment nearby, areas that didn't exists or where not as robust back in the flats heydey.  What's not in the area, particularly the west bank, is a corporate use and hotel.  Just like we express concern at over retailing in the suburbs (271 in particular) I'd also be concerned about over emphasizing entertainment.  I think a project like this brings a variety to the area and compliments, rather than competes, with the development across the river.  Office and hotel use across the river will feed the water taxi to entertainment east.  Plus as someone mentioned it looks like there's still access to a public boardwalk that connects entertainment options on either side of the development...Nautica to the south and the Shooters building to the north. 

 

Agreed. While this may not be something that purist urbanists like ourselves would want to live in or visit, it's the kind of the urban development that does have a market. Trying build the next FEB, or Warehouse District, or East Fourth only weakens those areas until downtown population can take the next leap to beyond 20,000 residents. Developments like this will help it get there by offering a greater variety of residential products.

I agree it doesn't need to be party central, and that a broader mix of uses is desirable, but it's important to me that the Flats as a whole remain open to the public.  It's a unique geographical and historical area in which I don't believe any form of gated community is appropriate.  Large complexes that are exclusively residential seem too close for comfort, and the "moat" only serves to drive that point home.

^ It's waterfront. It's historic. It's close to everything. And the people who control this large part of it can't seem to think of anything imaginative.

It's better than a parking lot.  There is still a boardwalk, restaurants, an Aquarium, music venues, and a water taxi connecting it to the East Bank, and its going up the hill to W25th

The only thing they are adding is housing and office space in what was a huge parking lot (if the can save the Harbor Inn)

Don't forget Strip Clubs.

....  As for the size, if they want to market to the higher end boating community, they would need something of sufficient size.  Very hard to navigate large  boats in tight spaces (no brakes).

 

No brakes, but there are engines that move in circles.  Changes the spatial needs for docking an maneuvering, and for the market they are looking for these might be more likely.

 

http://www.boats.com/boat-buyers-guide/all-about-pod-drives-volvo-penta-ips-mercruiser-cummins-zeus-and-zf-marine/

May be expanding the development footprint? I hope they don't demolish this:

 

2320 CENTER ST

CLEVELAND

 

Sales Date  12/19/2016

Amount  $1,150,000

Buyer  NAUTICA ENTERTAINMENT, LLC

Seller  DOWNTOWN SELF STORAGE LLC

Deed type  WARRANTY D

Land value  $59,200

Building value  $207,000

Total value  $266,200

Parcel  003-16-039

Property  Manufacturing and assembly, light

 

Two good things we learn from this news in Crains is the new Nautica development has a pulse and the first piece could be a boutique hotel adjacent to the Powerhouse. Five brands are said to be interested. The bad is the destruction of a beautiful building for parking. So many vacant lots around there why create another one.

 

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20170108/NEWS/170109856/nautica-expansion-picks-up-steam-with-building-buy

This is ridiculous. Destroying the very things that make the area a draw. I'll never understand these people.

There is a huge abandoned surface lot right across the street, the very LAST thing this area needs is another parking lot. The West Bank has to be at least 75% parking lots at this point. Too bad there are no public transit options on this side of the flats.

On the Jacobs master plan it does show a parking structure next to the Downtown Storage bldg. But I doubt we will see that, will more than likely be a surface lot.  The proposed hotel could be one of the two I have highlighted. Although this site plan will probably look completely different as we go along.

I'm sick of this.

This is awful, but not much of a surprise. That Nautica master plan is some grade A 1970s garbage. Was hoping it was all just posturing, but I fear there really is an untapped market for the "parking garages are intimidating" hotel guest near downtown.

Is this a cruel joke?

 

^If they are going to be intimidated by a parking garage then you better believe they would be absolutely horrified of a walk from that potential surface lot to the powerhouse at night. 

At lunch a few weeks ago (Capital Grille... Delicious) and overheard a guy saying he had an office near Nautica talking about the project and that Jacobs was going hard after essentially every property in the area to build his vision, including that high rise residential building. Said he had effectively lined up nearly everything except this guy's building and a charity(?) of some sort that operates in the area and that they were likely never selling. Based on that this at be one of several things we hear about this plan soon.

^ The only charities/non-profits I know of in this area are Stella Maris and the St Malachai Center. Both of those are much further up Washington though, near 25th. I couldn't see why they'd be interested in them though.

That's the most awful thing I've seen proposed in this city in some time.

Suburbanized forced open open-space parking lots brought to what should be a dense FWB area.  And, oh yeah, let's demolish 2320 Center Street, some of the last bit of character architecture and street presence density along the way.  While we want developers like K&D and Jacobs to develop downtown, it would be nice if they better understood building in an urban environment focusing on mixed uses, street presence and walkability.  Perhaps Jacobs should speak to MRN or Fairmount for pointers before they crank this stuff out there.

Two good things we learn from this news in Crains is the new Nautica development has a pulse and the first piece could be a boutique hotel adjacent to the Powerhouse. Five brands are said to be interested. The bad is the destruction of a beautiful building for parking. So many vacant lots around there why create another one.

 

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20170108/NEWS/170109856/nautica-expansion-picks-up-steam-with-building-buy

 

Man, this makes me sick...continuing to see the character of Cleveland destroyed.

 

As an absolute worst care scenario...why not turn the structure itself into parking?  Looks similar to a parking garage in Portland:

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.5245262,-122.6822117,3a,59.7y,286h,109.32t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4L5AxGkC7wFnvjXbDX_z5g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

The people at Nautica are stuck in the past. This is ridiculous and shouldn't be allowed to go forward.

I agree. This news isn't development, it's demolition.

Here's some historical nuggets about the area in response to some discussion on the "Random Quick Questions" thread that probably belonged in this thread.  KJP[/member]

 

A few pictures I took recently of the Nautica parking lots where the old railroad tracks/rights-of-way are clearly visible.  They are causing the pavement to crack.

 

 

 

And one of the jackknife bridge river crossing, and what remains of the tracks:

 

Question: was this portion (NW of Nautica Stage) part of the city's original right of way? Why would the city have ever owned this portion? The city owned the canal right of way, right? My guess is that the railroad acquired the land across today's "Nautica" site at roughly the same time as it secured the lease of the canal ROW from the city. If so, the 2.5 miles +/- of former city-owned right of way begins where that last picture was taken.

I think you are correct. Scroll to page 152 of this book (https://books.google.com/books?id=IT1NVT1vEwUC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false) and you will find the following. Start at the third paragraph.

 

 

 

The West Bank was owned by private developers as part of independent Ohio City. When the City leased the canal bed to the B&O, the B&O must have separately purchased this land... and built their bridges to connect it with the rest of the right-of-way.

I was perusing AoDK's site after @surfohio posted a link to their page in the Lakewood thread. How long have these been online? I don't see them anywhere upthread:

 

http://aodkinc.com/portfolio/waterfront-development/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, Mendo said:

 

I wish this development would happen! Wow that is amazing architecture. Hopefully a developer will recognize this and make a commitment.

2 minutes ago, CLE_Millennial said:

I wish this development would happen! Wow that is amazing architecture. Hopefully a developer will recognize this and make a commitment.

 

Yea, this would definitely change that whole area!!!

Well, the developer would be Jeff Jacobs that owns the surface lots and Nautica complex. It came out in 2016 they were working on the master plan. The article from Crains (2016) has rough massings from GPD Group. The AoDK designs are certainly better, so I was hoping those were the latest plans.

 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20160509/NEWS/160509849/nautica-plan-calls-for-residential-complexes

 

edit: I just realized the AoDK renderings actually show two different plans. One has a single rise along the river. The other has two shorter buildings with a waterway between them. I like the two shorter buildings -- makes the area denser.

 

Edited January 4, 20196 yr by Mendo

3 minutes ago, Mendo said:

Well, the developer would be Jeff Jacobs that owns the surface lots and the Nautica complex. It came out in 2016 they were working on the master plan. The article from Crains (2016) has rough massings from GPD Group. The AoDK designs are certainly better, so I was hoping those were the latest plans.

 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20160509/NEWS/160509849/nautica-plan-calls-for-residential-complexes

 

This looks like what happens when you realize you can't afford to build the AoDK buildings:

 

 

I'm usually a skyscraper kinda person... But I have to agree. The AoDK renderings look much better than this. I'd take either of them though.

I think they look like Miami, and not in a good way- a bunch of disjointed glass condos with little activity, connection or placemaking at the ground level.

Also, demolishing the Harbor Inn and building across the street would be obnoxious.  I suppose these designs are better than the pure garbage shown in the original massings, but I'm still firmly rooting against this project. 

2 hours ago, Mendo said:

Well, the developer would be Jeff Jacobs that owns the surface lots and Nautica complex. It came out in 2016 they were working on the master plan. The article from Crains (2016) has rough massings from GPD Group. The AoDK designs are certainly better, so I was hoping those were the latest plans.

 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20160509/NEWS/160509849/nautica-plan-calls-for-residential-complexes

 

edit: I just realized the AoDK renderings actually show two different plans. One has a single rise along the river. The other has two shorter buildings with a waterway between them. I like the two shorter buildings -- makes the area denser.

 

 

Ah the same Jeff Jacobs of the group that used to own my Warehouse District apartment building a few years ago... Based on how they maintained our complex, they don't have the money to do one of the buildings in those renderings let alone all of them.

Yall are crazy. The west side of the flats look like trash. Literally any of these renderings a would make the area look more welcoming and alive.

The west bank of the Flats definitely could use some investment, but I don't think that the fact that it is currently parking lots should negate the fact that we want to see great things for what is a unique location with a deep history.  We can do something better than what is shown.

3 hours ago, Mendo said:

edit: I just realized the AoDK renderings actually show two different plans. One has a single rise along the river. The other has two shorter buildings with a waterway between them. I like the two shorter buildings -- makes the area denser.

 

I count 3 different configurations presented.

They posted a video about 5 months ago on Vimeo of a completely different design and site plan. It's not clear any of these were actually commissioned by Jacobs.

 

 

^ I see a boardwalk but no retail to entice people to go out of their way to use it other than residents to walk their dogs. I'm really surprised this proposed development Isn't getting any press other than from Crain's. You would think this would be big news like the east bank project got and other comparable size projects got or are getting.

Edited January 5, 20196 yr by Mildtraumatic

That video really shows how awful this proposal is- all the ground floors, all of them, are parking garage.  No retail.  The buildings also appear to be oriented around this weird fake lake they want to make for some reason, with their best frontages and indoor/outdoor spaces aimed in that direction.  There wasn't any real thought given to orienting these buildings to the river, the real "water feature" that the Flats should be built around.

I'm not sure the fake lake is necessary, as there is a river and real lake a hop, skip, and jump away...

That design truly snaches defeat from the jaws of victory...

 

What a squandered urban planning opportunity it would be with its waterfront location / downtown views. 

Edited January 5, 20196 yr by MuRrAy HiLL

All the site plans we've seen are a complete mess, even the original from GPD. I don't understand why none of them retain the original street grid. Like the area needs pointless grass plazas between each building.

 

I did like aesthetics of the AoDK buildings. I agree its a bit of Miami but it could be interesting if not cheaply done.

5 hours ago, mas1092 said:

I'm not sure the fake lake is necessary, as there is a river and real lake a hop, skip, and jump away...

 

If they added boat docks with retail/restaurant frontage, I'd be cool with it.  

I was just in Miami on Wednesday and Thursday. It was stunning to look at from a mile away. It was astonishingly dull at street level. My wife, who isn't trained in urban planning, said "Why are there no shops or restaurants in these buildings? Where are all the people?" I asked her "How many of these buildings had public doorways in them? How many would you have a reason to enter if you didn't work or live in them?" Very few. 

Parking pedestals can work alright if there is something else on the ground floor and some of the parking is wrapped with other uses, but they don't do it that way in Florida.  Nor apparently in the FEB.

The fake lake is hilarious - instead of working with the real dynamic  vistas that exist - they’ve oriented the development largely inward to its own suburban style pond. I’d love to see that much development but - I think Murray Hill expressed it perfectly  - defeat snatched from the jaws of victory. 

As someone else mentioned, this arm of Jacobs doesn’t have the juice to pull any of this off.

1 hour ago, w28th said:

As someone else mentioned, this arm of Jacobs doesn’t have the juice to pull any of this off.

I thought this would be obvious to most people on the board.  I am really surprised by how many people are getting their panties in a bunch over something that didn't have a chance in hell of happening when it was first proposed way back when.  This whole development has always been pie in the sky Cleveland.  Does Jeff Jacobs even still live in Cleveland most of the time?We really must be desperate for stuff to talk about. 

Sure we're desperate. We're just about to come out of the biggest black holes of news/information of the year. When I worked at the newspaper, we had to save up news articles as early as November so that we'd have something to fill the newspapers with during the last week or two of December and the first week of January. That's when we'd also run our "Best of Police Blotter" and "News Highlights of 2018" type articles or share news among the multiple suburban papers to fill in the spaces between the ads. We would run most of our community leader/personality profiles at that time, too. And that was at a weekly newspaper. I pity those who work at daily newspapers.

 

So when someone finds some pretty new renderings during this black hole of information, of course it's going to be a big deal.

5 hours ago, Htsguy said:

I thought this would be obvious to most people on the board.  I am really surprised by how many people are getting their panties in a bunch over something that didn't have a chance in hell of happening when it was first proposed way back when.  This whole development has always been pie in the sky Cleveland.  Does Jeff Jacobs even still live in Cleveland most of the time?We really must be desperate for stuff to talk about. 

 

Nobody thinks this is happening any time soon, or ever. It's still interesting to talk about. What's the alternative?

 

Edited January 6, 20196 yr by Mendo