whimsically

 

WORD OF THE DAY!!!

 

The probem is the former Milacron fled the neighborhood first. They were one of the largest companies in Cincinnati and they just threw in the towel, and moved out of town.

 

I would like to see the area be redeveloped as a shining example of Cincinnati. But other than the original development around Rookwood, located where I first started working at LeBlond, it seems there have been nothing but arguments. But what else is new in Cincinnati, bickerings and arguments with little gained.

I see a lot being gained in Cincinnati these days, but not so much in the outer neighborhoods. Northside, CUF, OTR, and Downtown have a lot of good stuff going on, in particular.

 

Actually, considering the economic downturn, I'd say Cincinnati is doing amazingly well.

This periphery area of Oakley has always been weirdly industrial and different from the business district on Madison.  What this area really needed was a specific development plan rather than this patchwork of cheap developments that is totally rendering the area suburban.  The business district in Oakley is actually pretty strong, and after the expansion of the park and streetscape improvement, looks really nice!  I do agree that the energy seems to be concentrated in OTR, Downtown, and Northside though.

But the area where the former Milacron and other businesses like Williamson Furnace has had virtually nothing of what I wold call urban development occur. Other than Rookwood Commons, which was rather crammed on the former LeBlond Company property, tell me what has been urbanized in that area. From what I can see driving down I-71 or one of the infrequent times I get off in the local area, all that has been developed are several big box stores with their parking lots, virtually nothing as an integrated development. Looks exactly the same to me as where I live in Mason and West Chester. So why does this happen? The same reason as everywhere, money or the lack of it.

But the area where the former Milacron and other businesses like Williamson Furnace has had virtually nothing of what I wold call urban development occur. Other than Rookwood Commons, which was rather crammed on the former LeBlond Company property, tell me what has been urbanized in that area. From what I can see driving down I-71 or one of the infrequent times I get off in the local area, all that has been developed are several big box stores with their parking lots, virtually nothing as an integrated development. Looks exactly the same to me as where I live in Mason and West Chester. So why does this happen? The same reason as everywhere, money or the lack of it.

 

Bingo. The original design concepts for the Center of Cincinnati development were much more interesting that what we're getting. I do hold out high hopes for Phase II of Rookwood, however.

But the area where the former Milacron and other businesses like Williamson Furnace has had virtually nothing of what I wold call urban development occur. Other than Rookwood Commons, which was rather crammed on the former LeBlond Company property, tell me what has been urbanized in that area. From what I can see driving down I-71 or one of the infrequent times I get off in the local area, all that has been developed are several big box stores with their parking lots, virtually nothing as an integrated development. Looks exactly the same to me as where I live in Mason and West Chester. So why does this happen? The same reason as everywhere, money or the lack of it.

 

Bingo. The original design concepts for the Center of Cincinnati development were much more interesting that what we're getting. I do hold out high hopes for Phase II of Rookwood, however.

 

Even if it comes down to money, people making the decisions aren't doing a very good job.  Since it's been built, I don't think I've ever seen the 'Center of Cincinnati' parking lot any more than about half-full.  Even on a Sunday afternoon when the stores are somewhat crowded, the lot is half full.  That means someone is paying almost double in property tax and maintenance on a paved lot that is way too big. They could have easily fit a few more restaurants and/or smaller stores along the entrance drive.

 

You think that someone would have learned, but the plan for the Milicron site is even more absurd when it comes to the parking.  I do agree that I have higher  hopes for Rookwood.  They at least manage to allot the right amount of parking there.

My comments are strickly oriented to the point if you cannot get an organized urban development in this area of Cincinnati, quit banging on the suburbs. The same underlying conditions are working here, big money developers with big box company clients. I see the exact same conditions being developed here as where I live. Their money rules. The only reason they are not doing it downtown is it is not worth their while, expenses out ot sight, too few customers spread across too much territory.

 

As I see it, the major developments in Oakley appear to me to be decidedly not urban, but far more suburban. So explain it to me, how did this happen? Or did the developers, with their money, decide the local people desired a more suburban atmosphere so they would not travel northward? It is obvious they were not traveling downtown since there is little for them to shop at.

 

I beleve I will see the day when there are many people living within the downtown district, but having to come out to the suburbs to shop for clothing, appliances, and other essentials of life, since the costs of retail business within the City are rediculous. These will be the telling times.

 

BTW, can you even buy a refrgerator in downtown Cincinnati today?

 

 

 

BTW, can you even buy a refrgerator in downtown Cincinnati today?

 

Does Gilbert count? Race Refrgerator, selling used and maybe new refrgerators.

Your metric of success, or whatever, via refrigerator is silly. You can buy one downtown, via fiber optic cables. This is also the future of the suburbs. Been to Borders in Springdale lately?

The problem is a lack of imagination, and a lack of institutional support for doing highly urban projects.  Since most people in development are familiar with the suburban prototype, that's what they build and can better guarantee the price of.  The financiers of the project also look for the suburban metrics to apply to such projects because that's what they know and are comfortable underwriting.  The city itself could do a better job with the zoning situation, though I don't know how anything as big as this could be done without a PUD, in which case pretty much anything goes.  The general mindset seems to be that any development is good, even if it is unproductive and ultimately a drain on the region.  The tax code doesn't help either.  All that parking is assessed at a much lower rate than the buildings themselves, so there's little risk in paving over a large section of the land since it won't increase the tax burden nearly as much as more buildings would.  It's a perverse incentive.

My comments are strickly oriented to the point if you cannot get an organized urban development in this area of Cincinnati, quit banging on the suburbs. The same underlying conditions are working here, big money developers with big box company clients. I see the exact same conditions being developed here as where I live. Their money rules. The only reason they are not doing it downtown is it is not worth their while, expenses out ot sight, too few customers spread across too much territory.

 

As I see it, the major developments in Oakley appear to me to be decidedly not urban, but far more suburban. So explain it to me, how did this happen? Or did the developers, with their money, decide the local people desired a more suburban atmosphere so they would not travel northward? It is obvious they were not traveling downtown since there is little for them to shop at.

 

I beleve I will see the day when there are many people living within the downtown district, but having to come out to the suburbs to shop for clothing, appliances, and other essentials of life, since the costs of retail business within the City are rediculous. These will be the telling times.

 

BTW, can you even buy a refrgerator in downtown Cincinnati today?

 

 

 

Oakley is a suburban area. A place like Mason is more of an exurb.  That said, as I pointed out, the developments in Oakley are horrible, because they are built at an exurban scale.  The parking is easily double what it needs to be, for instance.  It was built because a suburban developer was able to get financing based upon the status quo; that doesn’t mean it’s a proper solution.  There are better solutions that could have been more profitable but current institutions are set up to maintain the status quo because that is what they are comfortable with.

 

I don’t really understand your last paragraphs. I live in OTR, but the farthest I go to shop is Hyde Park, maybe once or twice a month.  Everything that is a necessity is less than 5 minutes away, and that includes my job downtown, a Kroger, Findlay Market, and most of the bars/events I go to.  I’ve never needed to buy many refrigerators, but if I did it’d probably come with free delivery (I'm not carrying it up four flights of stairs) so why would it matter if I can get it downtown?

 

I grew up in the suburbs, I get why some people prefer that, but some prefer to live in the city.  I don’t understand your animosity towards that concept.

 

I grew up in the suburbs, I get why some people prefer that, but some prefer to live in the city.  I don’t understand your animosity towards that concept.

 

Every post kjbrill's made up to this point has been either hostile to urban living or to Cincinnati specifically, repeatedly referencing how nothing gets done in this town because everyone argues and complains so much.  Ironically, he's part of that problem.

Why do you feel I have an animosity against the urban life? I have no such thing. What I have an animosity against is the urbanites constantly bashing the suburbs. If they are so confident in their lifestyle, then let other people alone with theirs. Quit blaming the suburbs for all the ills of society.

 

I simply pointed out the Oakley developments, with adequate parcels of land available, have not been images of true urban development. No one stood up and declared what an excellent opportunity it was for mixed use, residential and commercial, urban lifestyle development. It was a parcel of land with a large price tag on it, so it went to the highest bidder. Simple to see who bid the most money.

^It's your tone. We can hear the anti-urban talk radio hosts in your tone, choice of words, asinine challenges ("oh yeah, find me a place to get highlighter markers in OTR") and assumptions that everyone has made logical decisions on their own in the presence of heavy subsidies, advertising, marketing and salesmanship.

Quit blaming the suburbs for all the ills of society.

 

Because people in the burbs have never blamed the city over anything, right?!?!? 

 

You want to act like an ass, you will be treated like one here.  Your comments and your tone over the past few days has shown your true colors. 

^ agreed. It went from a differing opinion to just being obnoxious.

Why do you feel I have an animosity against the urban life? I have no such thing. What I have an animosity against is the urbanites constantly bashing the suburbs. If they are so confident in their lifestyle, then let other people alone with theirs. Quit blaming the suburbs for all the ills of society.

 

I simply pointed out the Oakley developments, with adequate parcels of land available, have not been images of true urban development. No one stood up and declared what an excellent opportunity it was for mixed use, residential and commercial, urban lifestyle development. It was a parcel of land with a large price tag on it, so it went to the highest bidder. Simple to see who bid the most money.

 

I think even if you yourself have nothing against urban areas, the historical tendency of people in Cincinnati has been to go with suburbs and rag on the "ghetto" city--and attitudes like that tend to perpetuate the things that give rise to them in the first place. Which is why people who are enthusiastic about what's happening in the city, potential progress that's being made (in making urban areas nicer places to live and work and shop) go crazy when they hear criticism. So much criticism isn't constructive--"Over-the-Rhine? Buncha crackheads live there! Pave it over!" or "G-H-E-T-T-O!" The tendency is to lump constructive criticism and asinine anti-urbanism into the same category, because the latter tends to predominate in public discourse.

 

When you say you have nothing against urban living, I believe you--but you have to understand the context in which you're posting, too. People who are trying (very hard) to make urban areas in Cincinnati places in which people will choose to work, live, shop, eat, or drink have an uphill battle against fairly fixed mindsets.

 

Anyway, sorry your reception to the UO forum has been hostile, but I think that people have reacted the way they have for understandable (if not totally justifiable) reasons.

Quit blaming the suburbs for all the ills of society.

 

Because people in the burbs have never blamed the city over anything, right?!?!? 

 

You want to act like an ass, you will be treated like one here.  Your comments and your tone over the past few days has shown your true colors.

 

You feel my tone is antagonistic? What about yours. I simply point out some opportunities for urban type developments which have been blown completely and you want to jump down my throat. I did not blow the opportunity. Apparently you urbantes have a lot less security with your position than you would like people to believe. Any little criticism not even directed at any one organization, but just in general is met with vile remarks. You apparently have only one mindset, agree with us and back our position 100% or get lost. Sounds like some politicians I know. Glad I am not so insecure in my lifestyle.

From ColDayMan's signature, a GrassCat quote:

"I love it when people come into a message board and immediately begin to mix it up.  I mean, Jesus, at least say hello!  Do you walk into a room full of strangers, pick a random woman, and tell her she's fat? - grasscat"

 

Anyway, watching a meeting with the Oakley developers & a city council committee I got the definite impression the developers do suburban development - period. When asked about integration with the neighborhood, etc., they reacted like the guitarist in Spinal Tap who had an amp that went up to 11.

From ColDayMan's signature, a GrassCat quote:

"I love it when people come into a message board and immediately begin to mix it up.  I mean, Jesus, at least say hello!  Do you walk into a room full of strangers, pick a random woman, and tell her she's fat? - grasscat"

 

Anyway, watching a meeting with the Oakley developers & a city council committee I got the definite impression the developers do suburban development - period. When asked about integration with the neighborhood, etc., they reacted like the guitarist in Spinal Tap who had an amp that went up to 11.

 

OK, and who put these developers in place to be the developers? Was it the former owners of the property who sold it to them or what? Is it just another case of money talks? I am just saying it was a great opportunity lost for an urban type development, very near, virtually adjacent to Hyde Park. Years from now, hindsight will recognize it as an opportunity lost.

As I see it, the major developments in Oakley appear to me to be decidedly not urban, but far more suburban. So explain it to me, how did this happen? Or did the developers, with their money, decide the local people desired a more suburban atmosphere so they would not travel northward? It is obvious they were not traveling downtown since there is little for them to shop at.

 

I beleve I will see the day when there are many people living within the downtown district, but having to come out to the suburbs to shop for clothing, appliances, and other essentials of life, since the costs of retail business within the City are rediculous. These will be the telling times.

 

Read more: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,160.300.html#ixzz1lizNraqC

 

Its quite the opposite, retail will follow residents and money, here are but a few examples from Chicago:

 

Best Buy in expensive dense lakefront neighborhood:

 

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/212/487638549_287ea76fe7.jpg

 

Target coming to Downtown Chicago:

 

http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/theskyline/2011/02/target-on-state-street-good-news-but-god-or-the-devil-will-be-in-the-details-.html

 

Grocery Store comparable to Kroger - near downtown Chicago:

 

http://www.greenbeanchicago.com/green-grocery-green-jewel-energy-efficiency-water-efficiency/

 

Cincinnati is just behind the times, when there is a critical mass of people downtown and if current trends continue as well as local developers start to catch on to what's happening nationally, this will happen, its only a matter of time.  20 years ago there weren't Best Buys in dense urban neighborhoods, its a new phenomenon in the last 15 years for them.  Its coming to Cincinnati, there is no doubt - more expensive real estate is not an issue, or else the way more expensive real estate from a market that is 2x more expensive than Cincinnati's wouldn't be developed by these big box guys in urban footprints.

Suburban development is also a lot easier to finance because banks don't like to take risks with complex loans. This is part of the problem where zoning mandated separate uses for so long that banks don't know what to do when use mixing is required or desired. And developers/investors won't go along with it unless theirs a demand or they are required to.

 

Also please knock it off with the urbanite vs. suburbanite discussion. Thanks.

 

 

This forum is for rational discussion and well reasoned debate based on information and facts, not perceptions and observations based on racial or social undercurrents although those can be addressed in a more rational, respectful and objective way than displayed in this topic thus far. With that said, I've removed the offending discussion in hopes that some of the newer members get the message and return to informed debate of the topic of the thread.

 

Ok bash me and have confidence you are all right. That is the same attitude we currently have politically in this country and why nothing is moving forward. The two political divides are doing nothing but bashing each other, no resemblance of compromise. As long as you feel your approach is the only way, it is the same standoff.

 

You may talk tolerance, but you have none. It is strictly follow what we preach and be a parrot or we will ostracise you. Appaently anyone who breathes any criticism is automatically an outsider. As I said before, glad I am not so insecure with my lifestyle.

 

You've waded into a long-established conversation as an absolute newcomer and set about picking fights, telling long-term, well-informed members they're wrong and worse. You would have done well to have paid attention to the discourse for a while and figured out who was who, and then entered some carefully thought-out comments to establish yourself as a thoughtful participation in the discussion. Heed that advice; it might serve you well in future interactions in other forums. I suspect your future here is short.

Back on topic: I keep meaning to snap some pictures, but the sun goes down too early these days.

 

Anyway, as of late last week the site is essentially razed of structures.  I think they need to remove foundations/slabs/do earthwork yet on most of the site, but the debris from the old buildings looks to be mostly gone.  There's a shed in the center of the site whose age is indeterminate that appeared to be in use as equipment storage.

 

There is also a sign on the construction fence opposite the Sam's gas station advertising the movie theater.

Does anyone have information on the location of the proposed pedestrian bridge?  I have seen Enyart Ave mentioned and would like to know if there is a more specific location being discussed.

Ok bash me and have confidence you are all right. That is the same attitude we currently have politically in this country and why nothing is moving forward. The two political divides are doing nothing but bashing each other, no resemblance of compromise. As long as you feel your approach is the only way, it is the same standoff.

 

You may talk tolerance, but you have none. It is strictly follow what we preach and be a parrot or we will ostracise you. Appaently anyone who breathes any criticism is automatically an outsider. As I said before, glad I am not so insecure with my lifestyle.

 

You've waded into a long-established conversation as an absolute newcomer and set about picking fights, telling long-term, well-informed members they're wrong and worse. You would have done well to have paid attention to the discourse for a while and figured out who was who, and then entered some carefully thought-out comments to establish yourself as a thoughtful participation in the discussion. Heed that advice; it might serve you well in future interactions in other forums. I suspect your future here is short.

 

OK, you do not like my style. Yes, I like to mix it up a little, paticularly when I see a forum with a lot of parrot agreement and very little argumentative discourse. If all you want to do is to pat yourselves on the back you are all in agreement on the subjects you don't need an internet forum. Just email yourselves how great you conclusions are. If you want to portend this is an open forum, then at least give some semblance to it.

>OK, you do not like my style.

 

People tend to be in agreement when the facts of a matter are engaged.  When you are confronted with facts, you call them "elitist".

kjbrill, there is a difference between "mixing it up" and disagreeing with a majority.  The former is combative and rarely effective; the latter is engaging and enlightening.  I recommend the latter as the former will get you kicked off faster than an X Factor contestant.

What the hell. We're back way off topic again.  Literally we just had this thread pruned.

 

 

PayCor has announced its leaving Queensgate and moving its 450 employees somewhere else. Looking at the Cities options for new suburban style office space, the best options seem to be Oakley Station,

Keystone in Evanston &  the Medpace campus in Madisonville.

Sorry if I offended eveyones sensibilities. But I will stand by my comment that the former Milacron property plus all the other abandoned industrial property such as Williamson furnace in Oakley represents an opportunity lost for urban development. Being right next door to undoubtedly the premier urban inner-ring community of Hyde Park, this has to be considered a blown opportunity which does not come along very often.

 

When I drive down I-71 and see the big-box store signs from the highway, excuse me but it looks just like West Chester.

All that crap is only going to be there for 30 years.  It is certainly not the highest and best use of the properties. 

All that crap is only going to be there for 30 years.  It is certainly not the highest and best use of the properties.

 

Yes, but for the next thirty years it will be stiffling the concept of the rebirth of urban development.

All that crap is only going to be there for 30 years.  It is certainly not the highest and best use of the properties. 

 

That's half of many people's lives.  Cincinnati will continue, despite positive return with the Banks/Casino/Streetcar, to see modest growth at best because the good things that do happen there unfold far too slowly.  When it takes this long to build a single streetcar line, even with obscene opposition, it doesn't always feel like a win to the people, it feels like more of the same.  Bad decisions like Oakley Station stand out more because of this.  The City has to start working with the county soon to place another regional transit plan on the ballot to build off the momentum of the Uptown Connector's approval if dollars are secured elsewhere prior to 2014, i.e. Obama.

Incidentally this location *was* on the Cincinnati subway line, as modified after the president of Cincinnati Milacron was appointed to the Rapid Transit Commissioners.  They actually bought the right-of-way necessary in this area from Norwood east to Madison Rd.  The station located just south of the B&O tracks on the west side of Madison was going to be the temporary terminus of the line. 

 

This location doesn't really sit on the route of any transit plan drawn since, but it might be enough to motivate a deviation.  The main problem as I see it is getting from Montgomery Rd. (where light rail would almost certainly be built) east to this point with the light rail mode would not be permitted under current FTA guidelines without a huge and very expensive barrier wall between the active B&O tracks and the light rail tracks.  This problem continues east if there is some call for light rail to continue to parallel the B&O east to Madisonville. 

Sorry if I offended eveyones sensibilities. But I will stand by my comment that the former Milacron property plus all the other abandoned industrial property such as Williamson furnace in Oakley represents an opportunity lost for urban development. Being right next door to undoubtedly the premier urban inner-ring community of Hyde Park, this has to be considered a blown opportunity which does not come along very often.

 

When I drive down I-71 and see the big-box store signs from the highway, excuse me but it looks just like West Chester.

 

Yep, it's a major missed opportunity. Unfortunately, even a major overhaul of the zoning code (e.g. to a form-based code) probably wouldn't do much to force better, more urban development in this area. The only way for Hyde Park to become a center for urban-style development is for Hyde Parkers to demand it. They do not seem to be as interested as residents in the center core neighborhoods.

 

Since there's so much money floating around Hyde Park, there could feasibly be some rapid urbanization of land, relative to other neighborhoods. It seems like the Hyde Parkers who are really interested in living in an urban environment (primarily young professionals) end up moving to Mt. Adams or OTR instead of pushing for change in their 'hood.

Nearly all of us agree that Oakley Station is a disappointment.  The developer had GRAND plans originally that created a unique urban environment.

 

 

Then the economy crashed in 2008 shortly before demolition was to begin, then HE crashed (Filed for personal bankruptcy in 2011) but is still moving forward on this revised "safe" suburban style plan.  less perceived risk, less tangible reward.  Vandecar has always been a very disappointing developer.  And the last 4-5 years have shown that these outdoor suburban style malls do NOT survive.  Look at Buttermilk Towne Center and Newport Pavillion.

 

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/developingnow/2011/12/27/bankrupt-buttermilk-towne-center-sold/

 

 

That being said, we've covered these complaints for a long long time. Now the conversation has shifted to how the hell do we make it viable.

 

Having it open at the end of this year/beginning of 2013 with a major office component in place will be a GREAT thing.  Immediately upon opening you have nearly 500 middle-aged women on the site every day (vast majority of Paycor's staff are women between 35-55.  Perhaps leaving work, grabbing things from Meier or Target or Bed Bath & Beyond before they hop on the freeway to go home.  Also, one of Paycor's complaints about the Queensgate site is that it does not have enough amenities. Being here will help the restaurants during the week days, while helping the employees have quick access to food.

 

Might as well make the best out of a bad situation.

Has PayCor actually expressed any interest in Oakley, or is this just speculation the developer would be more than happy to unload a large portion of his remaining land with a single floor commercial office building built out of corrugated steel and a large cheap asphalt surface lot.

 

 

The plan includes two 3-5 story office buildings (100,000 & 150,000 square feet with surface parking. It's Cleary marked on the plan that has been around for about a year.

Paycor discussion moved here.

Went by again this weekend - swear I'll get pictures sometime but I'm always in the car.  Sure wish someone would build something other than an auto-centric shopping center...

 

Anyway, it looks like they're still working on breaking down rubble from the structures.  It appears they have nice neat rows of segregated materials - maybe for recycling?  There are also 3-4 MASSIVE piles of dirt at the west end of the lot, nearest Sam's.  No work yet on the removal of any of the old building foundations that I can see from the road.

 

Opinion Time: I'm with the majority here in that I would have preferred to see an adaptive reuse of the existing structures.  Would have been cool to watch a movie in a 50-year-old factory building converted to a theater rather than a bland suburban-style megaplex, never mind the neon marquee they hope to fool us into thinking matches the 20th Century.  However, as a resident, there's a part of me that's happy that something is going on there instead of some old buildings rotting away empty.  Call me a heretic, but I guess some less-than-ideal use is better than none.  And let's face it, while most of us here would prefer to see something more thoughtful, just about everyone else that lives and shops in that area is fine with big boxes.  It suits their needs without them having to think about it.  They will shop/eat/watch movies there whether it's in an old factory or a bland box.  Case in point: a corporate employee once told me that Target is one of the top-grossing (maybe the top) stores in the region.

^ No need to brand yourself a heretic, OHsnap, for being glad that the rubble heap is gradually being transformed into "something."  Yeah, the developers of the new complex ought to be shot like dogs--but the car culture people will flock there like they always do to any car culture complex--and, as you said, mindlessly and satisfied.  The present lineup of big box stores at that location is absolutely appalling, isn't it--but raise your hand if you can say that you've refused to shop in any of them.  I can't--and I hate myself for it.

^ Yeah, I go to all three of 'em regularly... But not IHOP.  That place is a hole.  How do pancakes take 45 minutes?

 

</off topic>

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but the Center of Cincinnati Target is being renovated to have a full grocery inside, much like the Newport Pavilion Target.

Has anything ever gone in the old Circuit City location? I can't believe I don't know but I guess I just don't pay much attention there. Seems to me that a Best Buy would work in that area.

Has anything ever gone in the old Circuit City location? I can't believe I don't know but I guess I just don't pay much attention there. Seems to me that a Best Buy would work in that area.

 

There was a Halloween Express sort of place the last couple of years, but otherwise, no.

The re-use on Circuit City's has been pretty low compared to other companies that have recently checked out.

I love that this guy can't get the circuit city filled but we're going to build him a giant new complex  (Same developer).

 

Also, the planning commission approved this. Shame on them.

Has anything ever gone in the old Circuit City location? I can't believe I don't know but I guess I just don't pay much attention there. Seems to me that a Best Buy would work in that area.

I live in the area and this store has the lights on inside 24/7. Who pays that bill????