I never thought I'd say this but I hope the good voters of Central and Southern Ohio save the voters of Northeast Ohio from themselves (in the Dem primary at least)

 

Kucinich has been all over Fox News defending Trump. Seems like he would have potential to bring the Obama voters who went for Trump back into the D column. I wouldn't count him out as a legitimate contender in a general election.

 

Kucinich is the original Trump. He is a fraud.

I never thought I'd say this but I hope the good voters of Central and Southern Ohio save the voters of Northeast Ohio from themselves (in the Dem primary at least)

 

Kucinich has been all over Fox News defending Trump. Seems like he would have potential to bring the Obama voters who went for Trump back into the D column. I wouldn't count him out as a legitimate contender in a general election.

 

Kucinich is the original Trump. He is a fraud.

 

Kucinich actually helped some of his constituents though. Trump, to my knowledge has helped no one. Ever.

 

[edit: okay so Trump gave money to Rand Paul's charity/political pr stunt in Central America]

I've been curious about that, because at least here in NEO, Kucinich ads and signs are surprisingly common.  As in, there is an enormous billboard for the Kucinich campaign very, very visible from my office window.  There are Kucinich signs on lawns along major slow-speed, high-traffic commuter streets (i.e., prime campaign sign real estate).  I haven't seen anywhere near as many for Cordray.  Is Kucinich concentrating the bulk of his firepower in the NEO and this is therefore the exception, not the rule?  The yard-sign and billboard landscape would be very different in Columbus, Cincinnati, Dayton, etc.?

 

I haven't seen a single yard sign or billboard yet, for anyone, here in Cincinnati. The only ads I've noticed were a handful of radio spots from Mary Taylor. Things have been pretty quiet here, I wouldn't expect a lot of turnout for either party's primary.

Yeah, the only signs I've seen at all is a Kucinich sign on Clifton Boulevard on the West Side of Cleveland while driving last weekend. I live downtown and mostly walk though so don't see a ton of yards or car bumpers.

I never thought I'd say this but I hope the good voters of Central and Southern Ohio save the voters of Northeast Ohio from themselves (in the Dem primary at least)

 

Kucinich has been all over Fox News defending Trump. Seems like he would have potential to bring the Obama voters who went for Trump back into the D column. I wouldn't count him out as a legitimate contender in a general election.

 

Kucinich is the original Trump. He is a fraud.

 

Kucinich actually helped some of his constituents though. Trump, to my knowledge has helped no one. Ever.

 

[edit: okay so Trump gave money to Rand Paul's charity/political pr stunt in Central America]

 

Kucincih doesn't so much help. He prefers to get in the news but not necessarily help.

He was right about Iraq when nobody else stood up, and I assume he was a decent enough Congressman. Too fringe for an executive position for my preferences, I prefer more centrist "establishment" people in those positions. Add to that his record as Cleveland mayor and his bizarre praise for Trump (even though you'd think Kucinich would strongly oppose Trump's fiscal policy), I'll pass, thank you.

 

I do wonder if he'd pick off alot of eastern Ohio Obama/Trump voters.

He was right about Iraq when nobody else stood up, and I assume he was a decent enough Congressman. Too fringe for an executive position for my preferences, I prefer more centrist "establishment" people in those positions. Add to that his record as Cleveland mayor and his bizarre praise for Trump (even though you'd think Kucinich would strongly oppose Trump's fiscal policy), I'll pass, thank you.

 

I do wonder if he'd pick off alot of eastern Ohio Obama/Trump voters.

 

Kucinich begon his career in Cleveland playing to the "economic anxiety" of white Clevelanders.  He was a pro-life, Turmpie racist guy until he decided to be the most liberal candidate.  He's just an opportunist.

I never thought I'd say this but I hope the good voters of Central and Southern Ohio save the voters of Northeast Ohio from themselves (in the Dem primary at least)

 

Kucinich has been all over Fox News defending Trump. Seems like he would have potential to bring the Obama voters who went for Trump back into the D column. I wouldn't count him out as a legitimate contender in a general election.

 

Kucinich is the original Trump. He is a fraud.

 

Kucinich actually helped some of his constituents though. Trump, to my knowledge has helped no one. Ever.

 

[edit: okay so Trump gave money to Rand Paul's charity/political pr stunt in Central America]

 

Kucincih doesn't so much help. He prefers to get in the news but not necessarily help.

 

 

Well he does have that penchant for raising awareness only AFTER a plant shuts down, or hospital closes. He's Captain Hindsight from South Park lol. But I know several people who Kucinich (or his staff) has gone above and beyond what you would expect from a typical rep.

I prefer more centrist "establishment" people in those positions.

 

Reminder: center in the U.S. is far-right in nearly every other country on the planet.

I prefer more centrist "establishment" people in those positions.

 

Reminder: center in the U.S. is far-right in nearly every other country on the planet.

 

I prefer progressive candidates but Kucinich is a fraud.

I prefer more centrist "establishment" people in those positions.

 

Reminder: center in the U.S. is far-right in nearly every other country on the planet.

 

 

We don't need to be like every other country. If we wanted to be Europe people would have just stayed over there.

I prefer more centrist "establishment" people in those positions.

 

Reminder: center in the U.S. is far-right in nearly every other country on the planet.

 

I prefer progressive candidates but Kucinich is a fraud.

 

Yes, I feel torn on it but Kucinich is no Bernie, imo.

I prefer more centrist "establishment" people in those positions.

 

Reminder: center in the U.S. is far-right in nearly every other country on the planet.

 

 

We don't need to be like every other country. If we wanted to be Europe people would have just stayed over there.

 

To be fair, it wasn't leftist governments that people fled.  And also, very few people are leaving there now while the leftist governments exist.

I prefer more centrist "establishment" people in those positions.

 

Reminder: center in the U.S. is far-right in nearly every other country on the planet.

 

 

We don't need to be like every other country. If we wanted to be Europe people would have just stayed over there.

 

Ah, yes, why bother trying to learn from other modernized countries that don't have mass shootings on a weekly (daily?) basis, problems with providing healthcare to their citizens, terrible maternity/paternity leave policies, etc. etc.

 

Republicans - we're the best let's not waste energy trying to take good ideas from other countries lol

I prefer more centrist "establishment" people in those positions.

 

Reminder: center in the U.S. is far-right in nearly every other country on the planet.

 

Insomuch that that was ever true (as much as we may have joked about it before), not so much anymore. In the case of Germany, the stuff coming out of the CDU (center-right) now that conservatives smell Merkie's blood in the water is pretty much in keeping with the more conservative parts of the GOP, especially now that the AfD (far right) is polling in third place, right behind and occasionally equal to or ahead of the SPD (center-left). Focus on traditional male-female families, insisting that Islam is not part of Germany and never has been, focusing on immersion into the "Leitkultur", etc. And France (Les Republicains/Laurent Wauqiez). And Italy (Lega (Nord)). And Japan (Abe would not make a lot of American liberals happy). And Canada (Doug Ford/Jordan Peterson (albeit not a politician) and Stephen Harper wasn't all that long ago). In this age of needing to be very careful about how things and people are portrayed, the "America bad, World Good" stuff just doesn't cut it anymore. It belies the fact that the trend just started earlier here and is alive in well in other countries, including some of the European social democrat utopias we all know and love.

 

Btw, the immigration systems most other countries use would make American liberals apoplectic.

 

EDIT: To keep it on topic so the above doesn't get removed, Kucinich's populism is indeed finding an in with Ohio voters if he's polling alongside Cordray. I bet most people assumed Cordray was going to be a shoe in.

I prefer more centrist "establishment" people in those positions.

 

Reminder: center in the U.S. is far-right in nearly every other country on the planet.

 

 

We don't need to be like every other country. If we wanted to be Europe people would have just stayed over there.

 

Ah, yes, why bother trying to learn from other modernized countries that don't have mass shootings on a weekly (daily?) basis, problems with providing healthcare to their citizens, terrible maternity/paternity leave policies, etc. etc.

 

Republicans - we're the best let's not waste energy trying to take good ideas from other countries lol

 

As opposed to the daily knife attacks in Europe? Or shootings in a grocery store? Europe isn't the perfect place a lot of liberals insist on believing it is.

I prefer more centrist "establishment" people in those positions.

 

Reminder: center in the U.S. is far-right in nearly every other country on the planet.

 

 

We don't need to be like every other country. If we wanted to be Europe people would have just stayed over there.

 

Ah, yes, why bother trying to learn from other modernized countries that don't have mass shootings on a weekly (daily?) basis, problems with providing healthcare to their citizens, terrible maternity/paternity leave policies, etc. etc.

 

Republicans - we're the best let's not waste energy trying to take good ideas from other countries lol

 

As opposed to the daily knife attacks in Europe? Or shootings in a grocery store? Europe isn't the perfect place a lot of liberals insist on believing it is.

 

Homicide rates in Europe as a whole are no where near US level.  Not even close.

And just to avoid derailing the conversation:

 

As for crime, parental leave, sick time, wages, etc: How much light is there between Cordray and Kucinich? Also, Dewine doesn't really strike me as a super right-wing ideologue, but I'm not enthused about Husted. I guess it makes his ticket cover the whole right. What plan is there on the Dem side to cover as much of the left as possible? I know center-left isn't trending well right now, but where are those voters going to go if given the choice between Cordray and Kucinich if they're both courting the Sanders crowd?

I prefer more centrist "establishment" people in those positions.

 

Reminder: center in the U.S. is far-right in nearly every other country on the planet.

 

 

We don't need to be like every other country. If we wanted to be Europe people would have just stayed over there.

 

Ah, yes, why bother trying to learn from other modernized countries that don't have mass shootings on a weekly (daily?) basis, problems with providing healthcare to their citizens, terrible maternity/paternity leave policies, etc. etc.

 

Republicans - we're the best let's not waste energy trying to take good ideas from other countries lol

 

As opposed to the daily knife attacks in Europe? Or shootings in a grocery store? Europe isn't the perfect place a lot of liberals insist on believing it is.

 

Homicide rates in Europe as a whole are no where near US level.  Not even close.

 

And ours are nowhere near the Third World. It's the difference between 5/100000 and 1/100000. A 4 people out of 100000 difference isn't exactly enough to make me think that our county is a failure. Either way, my point was that worrying about how quickly we can turn the US into Europe ignores the fact that they have their own problems. And thinking that just voting Dem alone is going to help them doesn't fix it. So I get that people on this forum hate Republicans, but the idea that our country would be perfect if only Dems were in power doesn't really hold a lot of water. Nor does the idea that the Republicans are some sort of ideological monolith any more than the Dems are. Or that other countries don't have crazies and/or problems.

 

EDIT: clarity

So you agree that the homicide rate is 5x higher in the US but you just don't think it's a big deal.

^But at the same time, it the much lower rate in Europe is high enough that it means they have problems so we shouldn't look there for any political/policy inspiration.

^^I think that you probably prefer using multiples instead of raw numbers because it makes the situation seem more drastic than it is. Anyway, back to the discussion of Ohio politics, as I'm sure there is a better forum to discuss European vs American homicide and/or violent crime rates.

You don't use raw numbers to compare rates since rates are not raw numbers.  But the fact is that homicides rates are higher in the US so perhaps we can learn things from Europe.

God help me, I am starting to think Kucinich is worth a go.  DeWine seems like a guy he can beat.  Meanwhile Cordray is the strongest candidate Dems have had in a while, at least on paper.  I'm torn right now but very likely to vote Cordray.

^^Well, I mean they are ratios, which, if you'll recall, are just a way of expressing numbers. And 1/100000 (0.00001%) and 5/100000 (0.00005%) is big relatively, but not absolutely. My point being that, sure, we can "learn something from Europe" (whatever that means), but I'm not sure that America's (and Ohio's, by extension) problems all vanish because there is a difference of 0.00004% of the population falling victim to murder between the two places. I stand by my point originally, which actually had nothing to do with murder rates anyway: the idea that one party (or country) is good and the other is bad, no crossover, no nuance, is a problem. And pretending that the Republicans are the anti-christ hellbent on destroying every life they can isn't far from the idea that Dems are all neo-communists out to brainwash everyone. People believe these things in a polarized climate. I'm not giving up on centrism because people want to get emotional. I don't think that helps. And fantasizing about copy/pasting solutions from another part of the world with different demographics is not really helpful either.

^ you used a lot of words to say that I am right.  That's all that us needed.  Side note l, if you were fighting a disease that killed 5/100,000 people and reduced the death rate to 1/100,000 you might win a major award.  But you would say big deal it's only 4 people less out 100,000.

I'm not sure how this turned into USA vs "Europe," but for the record I find both the American left and right have completely unrealistic and un-nuanced opinions of "Europe."

 

The left thinks it's a paradise where everybody is super enlightened and cultured and nobody is ignorant or starving or poor.

 

The right thinks it's "socialist" when in reality it's capitalist. They just have a slightly more generous safety net. EU states actually have privatized many former government functions... following the lead of the great capitalists of the UK and of Germany.

 

Finally "Europe" is not a country and there is a lot of differences between the different countries. Though to a certain extent a comparison of EU vs USA can be helpful.

This is a good discussion but should probably be devoted to its own thread.

I'm not sure how this turned into USA vs "Europe,"

 

Neither am I, but let's try to keep this thread to the 2018 gubernatorial election.  I might be a little more forgiving after November but this thread isn't just general politics chit-chat for the moment, it is an Ohio-specific current event.  And I don't want posts about things like Kucinich's dark-horse-in-plain-sight hopes, or the mainstream candidates, to get lost in noise about Europe.

 

I will return with splashy graphics if bold print proves ineffective.

Kuchinich doesn't really care about the people of Ohio.  Hasn't he been living on the west coast?  And when he was a Congressman here, he spent the majority of his time campaigning for President and not focusing on constituents.  The only time he would was when there was a good photo opportunity. 

 

As an aside, I was told by a friend that Steven Latourette actually "out-porked" Kuchinich with the Obama stimulus funds.  Not sure if true, but I can believe it if Dennis! was more worried about building his national campaign aspirations....

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/4/19/17226330/dennis-kucinich-2018-ohio-governor-race-candidates-richard-cordray-mike-dewine-mary-taylor

 

A good summary of where both governor primary races stand with just under three weeks left until Primary voting day.

The primary ads this year (not just for Governor) are flat-out disgusting to the point of dystopian.

The Mary Taylor adds annoy me.

An 8 year Lt. Gov. running around criticizing "the establishment" should annoy just about anyone.

The Vox article says she is pursuing the Trump crowd, which means she has to be anti-establishment even if that makes no sense for her.  I don't think she has much of a chance.  DeWine is a big name and she isn't.  Seems like the Syria story has put a damper on Kucinich too, though I haven't seen recent polling.  So it's Cordray vs DeWine... a pair of low-charisma moderates who would probably both be solid governors.

I have been intending to update my earlier analysis and predictions for a few weeks now, but Vox's is about as spot on as I would call it at this time.

 

I still think this race comes down between DeWine and Cordray. Taylor is running desperate and it shows. In her 7+ years as Lt. Gov, she has been VERY low profile, even as "second fiddle" executive positions go. One would think that she would have been positioning herself all along in a much higher profile way for the inevitable end of Kasich's tenure, and to be his clear and away successor. Her behaviors instead suggest someone who has been sleepwalking through two terms, just had their "wake-up alarm" go off, and is panicking now because they have to scramble to secure their next gig, one that they assumed was already in the bag but has slipped out of it, if it was ever actually in it to begin with.

 

Taylor is positioning herself as the candidate of Trump's base, but even if that were otherwise enough to win, it's a look that doesn't suit her well, considering that she was in elected office well before Trump entered politics.

 

As for Kucinich, I would never underestimate him, but the Syrian disclosure will turn-off many in the broader coalition of voters he was hoping to build across left-wing and right-wing ideological camps.

 

FWIW, I do think either DeWine or Cordray will prove to be a much more hands-on and pragmatic governor than Kasich has been during his second term. The state could really use a chief executive who isn't off chasing his long-shot dreams of becoming POTUS.

It's going to be tough to get Trumpies to vote for a woman.

^For the right woman they would. But no one, not even most Trump voters, is going to confuse a CPA from suburban Akron, of all places, for Sarah Palin.

^For the right woman they would. But no one, not even most Trump voters, is going to confuse a CPA from suburban Akron, of all places, for Sarah Palin.

 

They confused a billionaire from NY as being a salt of the earth guy.  What a bunch of rubes.

"Salt of the Earth" is an important hillbilly concept. It's also easy to fake even for low-level manipulators.

"Salt of the Earth" is an important hillbilly concept. It's also easy to fake.

 

especially for a skilled con man.

"Salt of the Earth" is an important hillbilly concept. It's also easy to fake.

 

especially for a (a) skilled (b) con © man.

 

Mary Taylor may potentially be none of those things.  She'd top out at two.

I was still referring to the salt of the earth billionaire from NYC.  :)

Dewine and Cordray would both be suitable governors. If it ends up being those two, then I think Ohio is in a good place politically. If it's Kucinich or one of the Populist GOP candidates, then Ohio has been infected by Sanders and Trump in a way that will be problematic moving forward.

DeWine is certainly an old-school tolerable Ohio Republican. He's still a little too conservative on some social issues for me, but that's what you get stuck with when 50% of your state consists of cornfed rural Western Ohio, suburban Cincinnati and Appalachia.

Dewine and Cordray would both be suitable governors. If it ends up being those two, then I think Ohio is in a good place politically. If it's Kucinich or one of the Populist GOP candidates, then Ohio has been infected by Sanders and Trump in a way that will be problematic moving forward.

 

What do we mean by Populist?  I wouldn't call Taylor that. 

^No nor would I. I would lump her in with Cordray and Dewine. I just don't think she has a chance in the primary

Populist doesn't mean what it once did. Because she's running around parroting vague, ignorant, misdirected anger towards the 'establishment' and 'the bureaucrats and career politicians,' she's populist.

^No nor would I. I would lump her in with Cordray and Dewine. I just don't think she has a chance in the primary

 

So which populist candidates are we concerned with?  Kucinich I understand but you indicated GOP specifically.  I'm not saying hard right and populist can't mix, it seems more common in Europe, but I don't see much of that mix around here.

 

Populist doesn't mean what it once did. Because she's running around parroting vague, ignorant, misdirected anger towards the 'establishment' and 'the bureaucrats and career politicians,' she's populist.

 

That's what I'm getting at.  Anti-government rhetoric does not a populist make.  Populism and Ayn Rand corporatism are practically opposites.

"Salt of the Earth" is an important hillbilly concept. It's also easy to fake even for low-level manipulators.

 

I don't think anyone mistook Trump for "Salt of the Earth." The appeal he had is more along the lines of the cliche "who would I rather have a beer Diet Coke with?" It's an important factor particularly for presidential elections, and I'd argue that it always has been - since the founding of our great nation. It's contributed to some degree to the election of at least our last 3 presidents. Bush had it Gore didn't, Kerry didn't have enough; Obama had it, McCain and Romney didn't have enough; Trump has it, Hillary Clinton was - perhaps - the most lacking in this field of any presidential candidate in modern history. No one wants to have a beer with Mrs. Clinton. It's ultimately just about being personable. It also is mostly just a factor for presidential campaigns because the public has to listen to the candidates speak for months, even years on end. It never seems to have as much of an impact on smaller races.