What does Connecticut think about all of this? 

they couldn't give less of a crap

 

surely they have parts of their state that screw up their politics too

I said it in another thread but CT already has Hartford, Bridgeport and New Haven to deal with. Why would they willingly want to add Cleveland, Elyria and Youngstown to that list of struggling legacy cities?

4 hours ago, KJP said:

Compared to Ohio?

 

You really see a difference between Bridgeport and Youngstown?  Here's a hint:  Both states aren't doing too good for their urban areas.  I'd argue Ohio is far better preserving their cities versus Connecticut sans New Haven or the Metro North suburbs.  

15 hours ago, BigDipper 80 said:

I said it in another thread but CT already has Hartford, Bridgeport and New Haven to deal with. Why would they willingly want to add Cleveland, Elyria and Youngstown to that list of struggling legacy cities?

 

Why not? NEO has some of the best assets in the country.

11 hours ago, ColDayMan said:

 

You really see a difference between Bridgeport and Youngstown?  Here's a hint:  Both states aren't doing too good for their urban areas.  I'd argue Ohio is far better preserving their cities versus Connecticut sans New Haven or the Metro North suburbs.  

 

I'd say that would be a fair statement 10 years ago and older, given how Connecticut became a suburb of New York in the 60s, 70s and 80s. But I've read a bit about the decisions surrounding the creation of the CT Rail service and the CTfastrak (Hartford-New Britain busway) as well as the efforts to focus TOD around stations. The rationale was and is because of Connecticut's lack of dynamic urban environments was causing it to lose young people to Boston, New York, etc. So it wanted to reinvigorate its older urban centers along the New Haven-Hartford-Springfield rail line and other transit lines.

 

And when Youngstown starts doing this kind of stuff, I will know that Ohio truly cares about its urban centers.....

 

https://www.bldsteelpointe.com/the-plan/

 

 

https://www.bridgeportct.gov/content/341307/341419/342425/342443.aspx

There's an economic difference between being located 60 miles from the largest city in the country and... being Youngstown that allows Bridgeport to build up in a way that Youngstown never would, even if it had a healthier economy. 

And being in a state that was still committed to taking money from cities in furtherance of urban sprawl vs. another state that is recognizing the folly of such actions and trying to do something about it.

16 hours ago, BigDipper 80 said:

I said it in another thread but CT already has Hartford, Bridgeport and New Haven to deal with. Why would they willingly want to add Cleveland, Elyria and Youngstown to that list of struggling legacy cities?

 

Wouldn't we be doing the rest of Ohio a favor by becoming our own state?  I mean if we're bringing down the rest of the state so much.  Then once NEO leaves you still have problems in Cincinnati, Dayton, Middletown, Toledo, southern Ohio, etc, etc, but at least you wouldn't have to worry about us up here so much.

I lived in Cleveland for 20 years, Cincinnati for 5, and now Dayton for 4 years, and Cleveland really isn't as different from the rest of the state as people seem to insist that it is. I get the frustration in feeling that the state isn't doing enough to help out urban areas, but I think it would be far easier to lobby for reform at the state level (and hopefully the new state legislature redistricting helps somewhat) than to continue some pie-in-the-sky secession thought experiment. Pretty much every urban area in Ohio has urbanists who want to see their cities get better, and fixing things at the state level would help out a lot more regions than just northeast Ohio. we all get sh*t on, not just you guys. 

I'd also caution against excessive grass-is-greener thinking about other states, which I gather is what ColDayMan was driving at on the previous page, too.

3 minutes ago, BigDipper 80 said:

I lived in Cleveland for 20 years, Cincinnati for 5, and now Dayton for 4 years, and Cleveland really isn't as different from the rest of the state as people seem to insist that it is. I get the frustration in feeling that the state isn't doing enough to help out urban areas, but I think it would be far easier to lobby for reform at the state level (and hopefully the new state legislature redistricting helps somewhat) than to continue some pie-in-the-sky secession thought experiment. Pretty much every urban area in Ohio has urbanists who want to see their cities get better, and fixing things at the state level would help out a lot more regions than just northeast Ohio. we all get sh*t on, not just you guys. 

 

No one is saying that the rest of the state doesn't get treated unfairly when it comes to our urban centers, and I can easily call out the fact that Cincinnati and Dayton have some serious issues.  Watching the conservatism that exists in Cincinnati towards the streetcar or politics in general is frustrating.  The issue that I find is why do some posters on this site have issue with NEO (the little snide remarks get old)?  If we are such a drag on the rest of the state, why do you care if we JUST talk about being our own state?

I don't think I ever insinuated that northeastern Ohio is a unique drag on the rest of the state. It's 1/3 of the state's economy after all. But when Cleveland forumers act like they're special enough to warrant creating a new state (or join another one 400 miles away), I'm more than happy to poke the bear in jest. I'd do the same to Chicago secessionists. It's fine to imagine a world in which our state borders better reflected the cultures of the people living in them, but that's not what we have, and short of a major national upheaval, it's unlikely. I just prefer to use my good ol' midwest pragmatism to look for more realistic solutions to problems.

12 minutes ago, Gramarye said:

I'd also caution against excessive grass-is-greener thinking about other states, which I gather is what ColDayMan was driving at on the previous page, too.

 

Correct.  I could see, say, Washington state being something to aspire (or annex) to but Connecticut?  Chile, please.

12 minutes ago, Gramarye said:

I'd also caution against excessive grass-is-greener thinking about other states, which I gather is what ColDayMan was driving at on the previous page, too.

 

I'm allowed to want what I don't have.

2 minutes ago, ColDayMan said:

 

Correct.  I could see, say, Washington state being something to aspire (or annex) to but Connecticut?  Chile, please.

 

ROFL Which part of Washington state?  Eastern Washington state is just a part of Idaho held hostage by SeaTac!

I mean, Spokane does have a downtown Nordstrom.  No Ohio city has that.  Thus, Washington state wins!

BTW, I've worked in advocacy organizations for 30+ years in trying to get what I wanted from the state of Ohio to no avail and with no sign that things will ever change. So when I see another state accomplishing what Ohio has not, and said state used be the mother of the region in which I live, forgive me if I want my region to return to its mother's arms. I'd even welcome moving into her basement.

9 minutes ago, BigDipper 80 said:

I don't think I ever insinuated that northeastern Ohio is a unique drag on the rest of the state. It's 1/3 of the state's economy after all. But when Cleveland forumers act like they're special enough to warrant creating a new state (or join another one 400 miles away), I'm more than happy to poke the bear in jest. I'd do the same to Chicago secessionists. It's fine to imagine a world in which our state borders better reflected the cultures of the people living in them, but that's not what we have, and short of a major national upheaval, it's unlikely. I just prefer to use my good ol' midwest pragmatism to look for more realistic solutions to problems.

 

I am sure more conversations will continue about creating a new state (which we all know will never happen, but it's interesting to think about) so I guess the rest of the state will just have to deal with it.  Maybe it's in jest to see how posters from other parts of the state react.  Meanwhile, I am sure down in SW Ohio you imagine a state where you're not having to deal with the likes of Cleveland or Elyria.  See, succeeding isn't such a bad idea.

7 minutes ago, ColDayMan said:

I mean, Spokane does have a downtown Nordstrom.  No Ohio city has that.  Thus, Washington state wins!

 

Hehehehe.

 

Don't speak too soon.

 

Nordstrom luxury competitor Neiman Marcus already filed for bankruptcy this year, along with many other retailers (https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/16/wide-range-of-groups-urge-ferc-to-reject-anti-net-metering-petition-324198) and Nordstrom's stock (JWN) trades at $18.50 right now; it was $65+ in November 2018 and $40+ in February of this year.

 

Spokane and Cleveland might be tied in their number of downtown Nordstroms before you know it. ?   

30 minutes ago, KJP said:

BTW, I've worked in advocacy organizations for 30+ years in trying to get what I wanted from the state of Ohio to no avail and with no sign that things will ever change. So when I see another state accomplishing what Ohio has not, and said state used be the mother of the region in which I live, forgive me if I want my region to return to its mother's arms. I'd even welcome moving into her basement.

Quote

if I want my region to return to its mother's arms. I'd even welcome moving into her basement.

So do you think mom even wants you back-even in the basement? Does Connecticut want Cleveland, Ohio to become Cleveland, Connecticut? It just seems kind of foolish to discuss this when there is no input from Connecticut. It is different than saying NEO should be it's own state of say Western Reserve.

 

So again what does Connecticut think about this idea?

 

Do I need to go to some Connecticut forums to find out?

 

Interesting how the original articles(Cleveland.com) that got this thread going were musing about an independent state of Western Reserve, not NEO as part of Connecticut.  

 

Would NEO be better off as a separate state or does it need to combine with another existing state?

 

Should the rest of Ohio just split up and join other states as well? Why does Cleveland get to escape being lumped in with Cincinnati while Cbus gets stuck with it?(just kidding Cincy posters! lol)

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 18, 20204 yr by Toddguy

Take us back!!

 

New Connecticut on Lake Erie: Connecticut’s Western Reserve

 

If you drive through the area of Ohio still called the Western Reserve today, you will find towns named Norwich, Saybrook, New London, Litchfield, Mansfield, and Plymouth. Many of these communities have a town green or square and the ubiquitous white-steepled church common to Connecticut.

 

When Europeans began settling the Atlantic seaboard of what became the United States, no one knew how far the land extended. As a result, many colonies, including Connecticut, were given vague charters of conveyance that implied they had rights to land far to their west. This led to numerous boundary disputes between the states. The new federal government stepped in to settle these disputes, and on September 13, 1786, Connecticut relinquished its claims except for a 120-mile long strip along Lake Erie, called the Western Reserve.

 

https://connecticuthistory.org/new-connecticut-on-lake-erie-connecticuts-western-reserve/

1 hour ago, BigDipper 80 said:

I lived in Cleveland for 20 years, Cincinnati for 5, and now Dayton for 4 years, and Cleveland really isn't as different from the rest of the state as people seem to insist that it is. I get the frustration in feeling that the state isn't doing enough to help out urban areas, but I think it would be far easier to lobby for reform at the state level (and hopefully the new state legislature redistricting helps somewhat) than to continue some pie-in-the-sky secession thought experiment. Pretty much every urban area in Ohio has urbanists who want to see their cities get better, and fixing things at the state level would help out a lot more regions than just northeast Ohio. we all get sh*t on, not just you guys. 

 

Our great lake alone makes Cleveland feel much different than CIN or COL.

Edited June 18, 20204 yr by Clefan98

That affects the city's built form, but on a day-to-day basis, living in Cleveland wasn't vastly different from living elsewhere in the state. The presence of the lake doesn't really change what life is like in Glenville or Shaker Square compared to living in Walnut Hills or McPherson Town.

4 minutes ago, BigDipper 80 said:

That affects the city's built form, but on a day-to-day basis, living in Cleveland wasn't vastly different from living elsewhere in the state. The presence of the lake doesn't really change what life is like in Glenville or Shaker Square compared to living in Walnut Hills or McPherson Town.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

Have you lived in other cities in Ohio? I'd be curious as to how your experiences differed. I didn't live directly downtown or in Lakewood or anything like that, so it's definitely possible that the lake impacted your life on a more regular basis than it did mine.

19 hours ago, Toddguy said:

What does Connecticut think about all of this? 

 

More importantly, what does Akron, Canton, Youngstown, Warren, Ashtabula, and Vermilion think about this foolishness?  I don't see a single forumer from those cities/areas on here that are like "Yeah Cleveland, let's join New London!  COLUMBUS SUCKS!"  It just seems to be a Cuyahoga County issue?

1 hour ago, ColDayMan said:

 

More importantly, what does Akron, Canton, Youngstown, Warren, Ashtabula, and Vermilion think about this foolishness?  I don't see a single forumer from those cities/areas on here that are like "Yeah Cleveland, let's join New London!  COLUMBUS SUCKS!"  It just seems to be a Cuyahoga County issue?

 

How is this about Columbus? When America splinters, Columbus, and Cincinnati-Dayton should become city-states. If they were geographically adjacent to the Western Reserve, they should come with us. Unfortunately, they can't. I hope they won't be overrun by the surrounding diseased populace. But when the Northeast becomes its own country, I don't want NE Ohio to be surrounded by a right-wing moat. I want the fascists to flee the NE states and its adjoining Western Reserve (looking at you rural Geauga/Medina/Trumbull/Lorain counties) leaving us with the sane people. 

Edited June 18, 20204 yr by KJP

1 hour ago, KJP said:

 

How is this about Columbus? When America splinters, Columbus, and Cincinnati-Dayton should become city-states. If they were geographically adjacent to the Western Reserve, they should come with us. Unfortunately, they can't. I hope they won't be overrun by the surrounding diseased populace. But when the Northeast becomes its own country, I don't want NE Ohio to be surrounded by a right-wing moat. I want the fascists to flee the NE states and its adjoining Western Reserve (looking at you rural Geauga/Medina/Trumbull/Lorain counties) leaving us with the sane people. 

 

 

You are just musing/fantasizing about this right?

 

Because if not(if you are even considering that what you are talking about has any chance of becoming reality)then this is just crazy talk.

 

And "diseased populace" is kind of like Cheeto's hate speech and "want the fascists to flee" and "leaving us with the same people" is similar to Hitlerish talk of ethnic/political/religious/cultural cleansing right? 

I consider fascism to be a disease which is spreading. Or should we try to be like Chamberlain and treat it nicely? How do you suppose a country can stay together when the very definitions of political truth are the subjects of such hotly contested debate that they erupted into violence? Are there geographic fault lines and if so where are they? Those that separate more cleanly will be the sites of more peaceful separations. Where the fault lines are not so easily defined will be where the violence most likely occurs.

 

I'm not the only one who feels this way and hoping that it doesn't come to pass, but I am looking at it on a microgeographic level (ie: Northeast Ohio). And given current trendlines of geopolitical divisions, a great split is inevitable. Some have called it The Big Sort, referring to the rearrangement of the populace along geographic lines. I want NE Ohio to end up on the more progressive side of the border....

 

Consider some recent articles:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/12/a-nation-coming-apart/600730/

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/21/upshot/america-political-divide-urban-rural.html

 

https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2018/1226/The-deep-roots-of-America-s-rural-urban-political-divide

 

https://theweek.com/articles/805689/should-chop-america-into-7-different-countries-seriously  

 

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/11/maybe-its-time-for-america-to-split-up.html

 

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/political-confessional-the-man-who-thinks-the-u-s-is-better-off-as-a-bunch-of-separate-countries/

 

https://www.amazon.com/Big-Sort-Clustering-Like-Minded-America/dp/0547237723

Edited June 18, 20204 yr by KJP

3 hours ago, ColDayMan said:

 

More importantly, what does Akron, Canton, Youngstown, Warren, Ashtabula, and Vermilion think about this foolishness?  I don't see a single forumer from those cities/areas on here that are like "Yeah Cleveland, let's join New London!  COLUMBUS SUCKS!"  It just seems to be a Cuyahoga County issue?

 

Long time lurker on Urban Ohio and figured this was a good time to jump in. I grew up in Summit County and fully support this, I also work in the Warren/Youngstown area and the state government doesn't seem to be doing them any favors.

3 hours ago, BigDipper 80 said:

Have you lived in other cities in Ohio? I'd be curious as to how your experiences differed. I didn't live directly downtown or in Lakewood or anything like that, so it's definitely possible that the lake impacted your life on a more regular basis than it did mine.

 

Spent four years in Columbus and a summer in Cincinnati, also currently have offices in both cities. My company would prefer I live in Columbus, but not living on a large body of water is something I could never envision or be cool with.

 

I live in Detroit-Shoreway and although there's many benefits of living here, the proximity to the lake and downtown are hands down the main reasons why we've settled here.

 

Last night's sunset was pretty impactful:

https://twitter.com/JasonNweather/status/1273430926714900480

Edited June 18, 20204 yr by Clefan98

Quote

 referring to the rearrangement of the populace along geographic lines. 

@KJP

 

It looks like you think this "Big Split" is inevitable, so are you saying that you would be in favor of forced relocation of people from NEO who you deem "undesirables" or as you put it "diseased populace"?

26 minutes ago, Toddguy said:

@KJP

 

It looks like you think this "Big Split" is inevitable, so are you saying that you would be in favor of forced relocation of people from NEO who you deem "undesirables" or as you put it "diseased populace"?

 

Nope. And I can see that you didn't click on the last link I provided above. The population shift is already underway and thankfully is occurring peacefully and willingly. I would prefer that there be no shift, but it wasn't my decision to create a right-wing media and political hate machine to poison the minds of so many and set them against their fellow Americans. If they don't want to live near progressives and moderates, they should be free to form their own country and live among those with whom they agree. And as I said, that shift is already occurring.

 

EDIT:  I hope I don't have to explain myself anymore because we need to get back to discussing the Reserve before this gets locked, okay?

Edited June 18, 20204 yr by KJP

12 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Nope. And I can see that you didn't click on the last link I provided above. The population shift is already underway and thankfully is occurring peacefully and willingly. I would prefer that there be no shift, but it wasn't my decision to create a right-wing media and political hate machine to poison the minds of so many and set them against their fellow Americans. If they don't want to live near progressives and moderates, they should be free to form their own country and live among those with whom they agree. And as I said, that shift is already occurring.

 

EDIT:  I hope I don't have to explain myself anymore because we need to get back to discussing the Reserve before this gets locked, okay?

This is about The Reserve-your post starting this topic was primarily about NEO either becoming a new state or joining Connecticut and that is what we are talking about-how would that come about, etc. Don't try and say "this is just about the historic area that was called the Connecticut Western Reserve" when you own first post starting this topic was mostly about separation from the rest of Ohio. 

 

You made the thread and set the tone for it with your first post. Own up to it.

This IS about the Reserve, including how it is different politically and culturally. And it is about my desire to see that it ends up in a country I agree with and can support when this national silliness sorts itself out. But I'm also not going to be baited into defending my description of the growing fascism in this country as a disease, because it is a disease. That should be obvious on its face to fair-minded progressives and moderates who reside in the more urban parts of Ohio. And most of them are in the Western Reserve. 

Edited June 18, 20204 yr by KJP

7 minutes ago, KJP said:

This IS about the Reserve, including how it is different politically and culturally. And it is about my desire to see that it ends up in a country I agree with and can support when this national silliness sorts itself out. But I'm also not going to be baited into defending my description of the growing fascism in this country as a disease, because it is a disease. That should be obvious on its face to fair-minded progressives and moderates who reside in the more urban parts of Ohio. And most of them are in the Western Reserve. 

Quote

fair-minded progressives and moderates who reside in the more urban parts of Ohio. And most of them are in the Western Reserve. 

So most of the number of fair minded progressives and moderates in urban parts of Ohio reside in the Western Reserve area? Really? 

 

I am done talking with you/posting in this thread. I think this is the best thing for the both of us-and what you seem to want is now what I think I want.  

 

*You will never get your own state nor join Connecticut. If there is any split among the states, you will be lumped in with the rest of Ohio most likely-yeah I did check maps online on this topic and did not just cherry pick the ones that I liked-I looked at them all and most show you will be with the rest of Ohio so you will deal.

Edited June 18, 20204 yr by Toddguy

Ok, we're done. I'm sorry you're having a hard time reading the articles and understanding the graphics I've shared. Take care.

34 minutes ago, KJP said:

Ok, we're done. I'm sorry you're having a hard time reading the articles and understanding the graphics I've shared. Take care.

I understood them fine.  We will just have to agree to disagree. Despite our differing opinions I think that generally we want to see the same kind of society in this nation(as long as it continues to exist)

 

*edited because I don't want to be like that on here.  It is just a message board and is not that serious.

Edited June 18, 20204 yr by Toddguy

On 6/18/2020 at 11:45 AM, BigDipper 80 said:

I don't think I ever insinuated that northeastern Ohio is a unique drag on the rest of the state. It's 1/3 of the state's economy after all. But when Cleveland forumers act like they're special enough to warrant creating a new state (or join another one 400 miles away), I'm more than happy to poke the bear in jest. I'd do the same to Chicago secessionists. It's fine to imagine a world in which our state borders better reflected the cultures of the people living in them, but that's not what we have, and short of a major national upheaval, it's unlikely. I just prefer to use my good ol' midwest pragmatism to look for more realistic solutions to problems.

^ The easiest solution is for citizens to just bail on the State of Ohio. Its reflected in the declining population. 

Edited October 19, 20204 yr by Frmr CLEder

8 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

^ The easiest solution is for citizens to just bail on the State of Ohio. Its reflected in the declining population. 

I don't think that is going to happen. The rest of the state(and nation)would have to sign off on it and do we really see that happening?

 

The Connecticut Western Reserve seems to be a fine topic to discuss, but it seems to have devolved to a separatist thread. And as was discussed upthread, how many people in NEO(not just people posting on here)would really be for that? Have there been any surveys, studies, anything to show what popular sentiment would be for this? Also has the same been done for the rest of Ohio and how they would feel about this?

 

Actually I like NEO and Ohio needs it. We in the sane parts of the rest of the state need the liberalism in NEO. I would hope that we over time may be able to push the state overall more toward the left.

 

*This upcoming election is huge though. If NEO goes overall blue but the rest of the state screws up and makes the state go for Trump I will understand (even though I know it ain't gonna happen).

^ It's already happened and it continues to happen!

 

I'm a perfect example. I left NEO at 18 for undergrad in California (not at all interested in OSU-Columbus, UC, MU or CWRU), only to return for a brief residency at CCF. I settled in NYC and am now semi-retired in FL. I guess living in the "bastions of liberalism" has warped my brain but I would never consider a move back to Ohio. Never. Been there, did that....twice.

 

I'll always love NEO. Despite having Universal and DW up the road, Cedar Point is still my favorite. 

 

The State of Ohio is just too backwards, dysfunctional and places the needs of rural Ohio before its cities.

Edited October 19, 20204 yr by Frmr CLEder

38 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

^ It's already happened and it continues to happen!

 

I'm a perfect example. I left NEO at 18 for undergrad in California (not at all interested in OSU-Columbus, UC, MU or CWRU), only to return for a brief residency at CCF. I settled in NYC and am now semi-retired in FL. I guess living in the "bastions of liberalism" has warped my brain but I would never consider a move back to Ohio. Never. Been there, did that....twice.

 

I'll always love NEO. Despite having Universal and DW up the road, Cedar Point is still my favorite. 

 

The State of Ohio is just too backwards, dysfunctional and places the needs of rural Ohio before its cities.

Sorry I was still not quite awake and somehow saw your post as "NEO bailing on Ohio" rather than just people leaving the state. My bad. And yeah, rural Ohio has way to much power in this state.