11 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

No you need to check yourself

 

GREAT come back considering you put words in my mouth.

 

Give your explanation on why I’m wrong, rather than a childish response.

 

I’ll go first:

 

Why not put the airport in Richfield where it’s centralized to both Cleveland and Akron/Canton?(or why was it at least not considered at the same time as this original plan) Plenty of cheap land, out of the risk of weather from the lake, still could’ve created a transit hub via a rail line to all three metros.

 

Ok, now you go...

Edited November 15, 20195 yr by wpcc88

Cleveland has weather. Period. End of story.

 

It doesn't matter where it goes, the bottom line is there was an opportunity to build a land unrestricted international airport 50 years ago. It didnt happen and here you are.  BTW, at 63 YO, I don't do childish responses. I leave that to people such as yourself.

Edited November 15, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

15 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Cleveland has weather. Period. End of story.

 

It doesn't matter where it goes, the bottom line is there was an opportunity to build a land unrestricted international airport 50 years ago. It didnt happen and here you are.  BTW, at 63 YO, I don't do childish responses. I leave that to people such as yourself.

 

What does age have to do with you not understanding that I was in no way complaining in my original post? A post that you were responding to and what got this started.

 

As as far as weather is concerned, yes it is a problem in most all cities as a matter of fact. However like others had posted this was a “pie in the sky” idea. Which is undeniably true, no matter how much it would’ve “made sense” in the land usage argument. 

 

Carry on “thumbs downing” people’s post and reacting with “poison” if that makes you feel better! I’ll be the one still here calling those actions and your repetitive response childish because you were upset that I didn’t agree with you.

Let's eliminate the personal attacks in our arguments, please.

If you had bothered to read the thread you would have understood that the statement was that an opportunity existed 50 years ago to build a NEO international airport. It died on the vine. Over that 50 year time period, what could have been NEO's benefits (unlimited room for airport expansion, increased flight options, corporate & economic development) if it had been pursued? Not pursuing that project may have contributed to the status of things today (land-locked airports, limited flight options, slow economic growth).

 

"My age has to do with" me not being interested in resorting to "childish responses," as you referenced above. I'm interested in growth & economic development in Cleveland. Period.

 

You told me to "check myself."  That's what set it off. If a post is hostile, retaliatory, vindictive, toxic, or a terrible idea, I'm going to call it out as being such.

Edited November 15, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

17 hours ago, wpcc88 said:

Why not put the airport in Richfield where it’s centralized to both Cleveland and Akron/Canton?(or why was it at least not considered at the same time as this original plan) Plenty of cheap land, out of the risk of weather from the lake, still could’ve created a transit hub via a rail line to all three metros.

 

Terrain - too many hills in and around Richfield.  Airports need a lot of flat land.  

The only area in the whole region with vacant land, flat terrain and limited lake-effect weather would be towards Toledo/Lima and that's not really convenient since its on the other side of the state.  That being said, surprisingly CLE rarely closes for weather-related issues. I think they're on ILS.

Edited November 15, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

Wait, am I missing something? What's wrong with CLE? It is 15 minutes from downtown. That's a superb location. And there is rail access! What would building another airport do? 

 

Also, as a Cincinnatian, I don't see the need for a CIN/DAY airport. CVG is about 20 to 25 mins from my house. A CIN/DAY airport would likely be an hour or more. Why would I want that? The cities that do the best have airports that are accessible to downtown. Boston and Philly are great examples. We'd be much better off spending money to connect CVG through downtown and up to Dayton via rail than to build a new airport. 

CLE is developing a new master plan.  You are correct. It has train service, is easy to get into/out of and besides the usual Toronto, Punta Cana, Cancun junkets, many major international destinations are only one stop.

 

Similar to CVG though, its seeking more travel destinations and major international service, but CLE is landlocked, has poor C&I, and has lost hub status.  Could a new "regional" airport drive economic development for NEO, similar to what we see in CLT, ATL, or DFW and where could or should it be located?

Edited November 15, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

1 hour ago, Frmr CLEder said:

CLE is developing a new master plan.  You are correct. It has train service, is easy to get into/out of and besides the usual Toronto, Punta Cana, Cancun junkets, many major international destinations are only one stop.

 

Similar to CVG though, its seeking more travel destinations and major international service, but CLE is landlocked, has poor C&I, and has lost hub status.  Could a new "regional" airport drive economic development for NEO, similar to what we see in CLT, ATL, or DFW and where could or should it be located?

Considering everything, the master plan is undoubtedly going to keep KCLE where it is for the foreseeable mid-term future, which won't help a push to build a brand new regional airport after a ~$1,000,000,000 complete or partial overhaul of the terminals/concourses and everything...

Agreed.  The dual Ohio airport concept will be a challenge to garner support but the region also needs to grow economically.  Large regional, international airport hubs could be a solution but requires visionary non-risk averse leadership; something that has been lacking in Ohio politics.

Edited November 15, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

3 hours ago, DEPACincy said:

Wait, am I missing something? What's wrong with CLE? It is 15 minutes from downtown. That's a superb location. And there is rail access! What would building another airport do? 

 

Also, as a Cincinnatian, I don't see the need for a CIN/DAY airport. CVG is about 20 to 25 mins from my house. A CIN/DAY airport would likely be an hour or more. Why would I want that? The cities that do the best have airports that are accessible to downtown. Boston and Philly are great examples. We'd be much better off spending money to connect CVG through downtown and up to Dayton via rail than to build a new airport. 

For CVG/DAY, the key would be getting an airport large enough to be a “hub” airport rather than regional airports like CVG and DAY are now.

 

CVG used to be a hub before the hubs got consolidated even further into what we have now. I personally see demand for it, even though Detroit is relatively close, because DET, ATL, Dulles, and Ohare are the closest hubs to the north, south, east and west respectively. There is a void for Cincy, Dayton, Columbus, Indianapolis, Louisville, and Lexington. Combined that’s like 10 million people that don’t have a hub airport within reasonable driving distance, and in turn pay a whole lot more for longer flights with connections.

 

Normally I’m very anti tearing up green fields to build new crap for “economic development”. But I still am bearish on AK Steel and their Middletown mill. If that ever closes, between it and the supporting Suncoke land there’s more than enough room for an airport there, in what would become a brownfield. And there’s already all kinds of rail infrastructure there that could be repurposed into light rail to Cincy and Dayton. 
 

But for all I know, in 50 years air travel may be replaced by bullet trains.

I think the challenges are cost, market dynamics and political vision and foresight. 

1.  New airports will be very expensive to build and will require significant infrastructure development

2.  The large airline hubs have pretty much been established. I doubt that new hubs will be created when most hubs are within a two hour flight of Ohio.

3.  Airbus and Boeing are developing aircraft to meet airlines request for smaller, longer-haul, fuel-efficient aircraft (A320XLR and 737MAX?) to run international routes to/from medium-sized markets.  This is an opportunity for places like NEO and SWO.

4.  Historically, Columbus has not had the will, vision, nor foresight to invest in urban economic development projects. It would appear that this is slowly changing. Instead ODOT has prefered to build more highways vs invest in rail projects or mass transit. Massachusetts, Connecticut, New York, Pennsylvania, Florida, Maryland, Illinois, even California have invested in their transit infrastructure and reaped the rewards of those investments. Unfortunately the lack of investment has adversely affected Ohio's economic development; all of these states have leapfrogged Ohio in transit driven economic development.

Edited November 16, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

1 minute ago, Frmr CLEder said:

I think the challenges are cost, market dynamics and political vision and foresight. 

1.  New airports will be very expensive to build and will require significant infrastructure development

2.  The large airline hubs have pretty much been established. I doubt that new hubs will be created when most hubs are within a two hour flight of Ohio.

3.  Airbus and Boeing are developing aircraft to meet airlines request for smaller, longer-haul, fuel-efficient aircraft (A320XLR and 737MAX?) to run international routes to/from medium-sized markets.  This is an opportunity for places like NEO and SWO.

4.  Historically, Columbus has not had the will, vision, nor foresight to invest in urban economic development projects. It would appear that this is slowly changing. Instead ODOT has prefered to build more highways vs invest in rail projects or mass transit. Massachusetts, Connecticut, New York, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Illinois, even California have invested in their transit infrastructure and reaped the rewards of those investments. Unfortunately the lack of investment has adversely affected Ohio's economic development; all of these states have leapfrogged Ohio in transit driven economic development.

To your first point, there are no new major airports currently planned in the US.  The funding isnt there for it - and thats bi- partisan. Your second point is still being debated. An A321XLR or B737-900ER MAX are not true B757-200ER replacements which is the segment they are trying to make inroads. Lufhansa publically stated at their Capital Markets Conference earlier this year that they have no intetest in the XLR. Remenber, both of those aircraft are just hybrids of previous iterations and both hybrids do sacrifice certain performance issues. My guess is that there will be tech stops in winter flying westbound (possibly a reason the Icelanders suspended CLE - besides max issues).  Also, for the premium flyer that has to make a connection anyway to a city like Stockholm or Rome, for their money, they'll chosse the superior product - which aint a  B737-900ER

I agree with most of what you say. Lufthansa is flying A380's to major markets. I don't think they currently have any interest in medium markets. I do however think the quest by other airlines to gain access to medium international markets has legs and we haven't heard the last of that. They see expansion opportunity in those markets.

 

BTW, I would walk before I took a MAX around the corner. I think the plane's static aerodynamics are flawed with the larger engines. 

Edited November 16, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

20 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

I agree with most of what you say. Lufthansa is flying A380's to major markets. I don't think they currently have any interest in medium markets. I do however think the quest by other airlines to gain access to medium international markets has legs and we haven't heard the last of that. They see expansion opportunity in those markets.

 

BTW, I would walk before I took a MAX around the corner. I think the plane's static aerodynamics are flawed with the larger engines. 

I dont have any type rating on any of the 737's so i cant really speak to that. Also, i personally dont know anybody who is rated for the MAX. Could be it was a step too far but there were a few operators who seemed to fly it just fine such as Iceland. By the way, there was an AA E175 that declared an emergency out of ATL the other night with a runaway trim. Problem solved and landed back in ATL without incident but could have ended much differently

Actually, is it engine size or placement.  I think the are related but i think its placement more than anything.  More thrust farther forward could cause pitch up scenarios

38 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

I agree with most of what you say. Lufthansa is flying A380's to major markets. I don't think they currently have any interest in medium markets. I do however think the quest by other airlines to gain access to medium international markets has legs and we haven't heard the last of that. They see expansion opportunity in those markets.

 

BTW, I would walk before I took a MAX around the corner. I think the plane's static aerodynamics are flawed with the larger engines. 

But those A380s are about to become beer cans. Airbus has cancelled the programme and Air France will return 5 back to the Lessor. Lufty has ordered A359 and B777 to replace. It looks like no A380s in the sky by late 2030 or so

Edited November 16, 20195 yr by B767PILOT

That's what I've read. They're monstricities and with four engines, they're loud and I have to think, not very fuel efficient.

2 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

That's what I've read. They're monstricities and with four engines, they're loud and I have to think, not very fuel efficient.

No, i think fuel was very competitive actually. However, the type was never really used to its potential. It was engineered for 900 pax and designed for 800 and actuall outfitted for less than 500. The interior noise was negligable. Ive been a passenger on Lufthansa from FRA TO SIN in biz class and thourougly enjoyed the ride

Unfortunately my Edgewater condo is aligned with the runways at MIA. The noise from A380's and 747's compared to other aircraft is quite noticeable.

On 6/12/2017 at 12:07 AM, unusualfire said:

CVG is in Ky not Ohio. Ohio has no control what happens there. But will have if one is located in Ohio

4 hours ago, MyTwoSense said:

 

Also, CVG is in Boone County but is managed by the Kenton County Airport Board.  Why?  Because at the time it was established back in the 1940s, Kentucky did not permit counties with under 5,000 residents to sell bonds.  So Kenton County, which is home to the City of Covington (and the notorious Covington Catholic High School -- which at some point moved out of Covington to suburban Park Hills), bought the property and built the airport in its neighboring county.  That's also why they airport's letters are "CVG" = Covington.  I'm not sure who does the appointing to the Kenton County Board, but they definitely are not elected officials but rather a who's-who of country clubbers and "their boys". 

 

Also, with regards to Amazon Prime Air - have FedEx or UPS brought fame and fortune to Louisville and Memphis?  Heck no.  For the most part they're just a bunch of crap odd-hour jobs for people who can barely pass a drug test.  When I was driving to work one day this week, I saw multiple Amazon Prime Air jets drifting above I-275 cuing to land on the north/south runways, one after another.  Look at those magnificent loss leaders, I thought to myself.   

 

 

 

 

6 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

I think the challenges are cost, market dynamics and political vision and foresight. 

1.  New airports will be very expensive to build and will require significant infrastructure development

2.  The large airline hubs have pretty much been established. I doubt that new hubs will be created when most hubs are within a two hour flight of Ohio.

3.  Airbus and Boeing are developing aircraft to meet airlines request for smaller, longer-haul, fuel-efficient aircraft (A320XLR and 737MAX?) to run international routes to/from medium-sized markets.  This is an opportunity for places like NEO and SWO.

4.  Historically, Columbus has not had the will, vision, nor foresight to invest in urban economic development projects. It would appear that this is slowly changing. Instead ODOT has prefered to build more highways vs invest in rail projects or mass transit. Massachusetts, Connecticut, New York, Pennsylvania, Florida, Maryland, Illinois, even California have invested in their transit infrastructure and reaped the rewards of those investments. Unfortunately the lack of investment has adversely affected Ohio's economic development; all of these states have leapfrogged Ohio in transit driven economic development.

Quote

 

Quote

Historically, Columbus has not had the will, vision, nor foresight to invest in urban economic development projects.

Please don't use "Columbus" when you mean the statehouse/state government and then don't use Boston, Hartford, etc. for the other states, but instead actually name the STATE instead as it should be. Columbus is a city, the state government based there is just that-the state government. thanks.

Edited November 16, 20195 yr by Toddguy

I think we're being a bit sensitive here but I did mean what I said and said what I meant.

 

As the capital of the state of Ohio and the state being its major employer, decisions made by the residents of the City of Columbus, who work for the State, impact everyone in the State; not just the residents of Columbus. Not to detract from Columbus, but from an historical perspective, it has never been considered "urban."  It has never had the population density to achieve that distinction. While it may be the largest city, in population and in size, it has never had the density of Cleveland nor Cincinnati; NEO and SWO are the most densely populated regions of the state. With that density comes unique transportation challenges; urban transit and inter/intracity rail vs freeway overpasses and interchanges; large airport hubs vs regional connecting airports to large airport hubs in other states.

 

When I referenced the states, I intended to because most of those states support urban/suburban/exurban transportation development; it is not specific to any one city (ie; Hartford, New Haven, Stamford all have major rail development).  The states mentioned have also invested heavily in transportation, which has driven their economic development. Historically, the State of Ohio has not, and that's unfortunate because it has hindered the state's economic development. So here we are.

 

Miami, Fort Lauderdale, West Palm Beach and soon Orlando and Tampa, FL have regional and/or high-speed train service. Tallahassee had the foresight to support this development. The same can be said for Sacramento, CA for its support of transportation development in LA, San Francisco and San Diego.

 

Investment has now become resource and cost prohibitive. That train has left the station, so to speak, and so here we are debating how Ohio can become competitive in a market with ever increasing costs and rampant competition.

Edited November 17, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

7 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

 

Miami, Fort Lauderdale, West Palm Beach and soon Orlando and Tampa, FL have regional and/or high-speed train service. Tallahassee had the foresight to support this development. The same can be said for Sacramento, CA for its support of transportation development in LA, San Francisco and San Diego.

 

 

Tallahassee has not been remotely supportive of rail investments. Florida is getting rail investments despite the FL state gov, not because of it.  Much like OH and WI, that rail system would already be done in FL if they hadn’t foolishly rejected federal investment dollars nine years ago. The Virgin / Brightline train is happening now because a private company is investing in it. I hope the same happens in OH, but I’m not holding my breath.  (To be fair, I presume previous FL administrations had been supportive of rail which initiated those plans, again much like Oh and WI.)

 

That said, California is a great example. And North Carolina, of all places. 

Sorry, but I respectfully disagree. Virgin Trains wouldn't be happening without the blessing of Tallahassee and the communities along its path.  Communities from Aventura to Coco Beach are battling one another for stations. They appreciate the economic development opportunity. They're not obstructionists. The same holds true in California. That only represents the "high-speed" rail; it's not so high-speed in Miami without a designated right-of-way. Tri-Rail also travels the local Miami-W. Palm Beach route.

 

Where is Ohio in this process? The state just denied a request from GCRTA for desperately-needed financing. It takes visionaries with the political will; something that has been lacking in Ohio.

 

Now the discussion is about two mega airports in NEO and SWO. They could be opportunities. Let's see where they go.

Edited November 17, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

On 11/16/2019 at 1:42 PM, jmecklenborg said:

On 11/16/2019 at 9:27 AM, MyTwoSense said:

 

Also, CVG is in Boone County but is managed by the Kenton County Airport Board.  Why?  Because at the time it was established back in the 1940s, Kentucky did not permit counties with under 5,000 residents to sell bonds.  So Kenton County, which is home to the City of Covington (and the notorious Covington Catholic High School -- which at some point moved out of Covington to suburban Park Hills), bought the property and built the airport in its neighboring county.  That's also why they airport's letters are "CVG" = Covington.  I'm not sure who does the appointing to the Kenton County Board, but they definitely are not elected officials but rather a who's-who of country clubbers and "their boys". 

 

Also, with regards to Amazon Prime Air - have FedEx or UPS brought fame and fortune to Louisville and Memphis?  Heck no.  For the most part they're just a bunch of crap odd-hour jobs for people who can barely pass a drug test.  When I was driving to work one day this week, I saw multiple Amazon Prime Air jets drifting above I-275 cuing to land on the north/south runways, one after another.  Look at those magnificent loss leaders, I thought to myself.   

 

 

Interesting history on CVG, I had no clue! What a bizarre way to get an airport.

 

I'm figuring when it comes to airport jobs vs. Amazon hub jobs it's a wash, IF the airport jobs (baggage handlers, etc.) are non-union.

Louisville is doing a bit better than Memphis, but you are right, neither one is a hub of fame and prosperity by any stretch of the imagination... more low pay, new age blue collar jobs, not anything that would qualify for Richard Florida's creative class.

 

I think if there was political will in Ohio I could see a push for some kind of new Cincy airport or combined airport in Ohio.

If Ohio/Indiana would have won its combined bid to be a UAS hub a few years back from the federal government, I could see some reason to re-purpose DAY and at least start the push for a combined airport. The Wilmington idea, even though it's not great unless there was high speed rail to connect it into Cincy, Dayton, and Columbus, has been kicked around many times before.

The same has been true for NEO, going back over 50 years, but the ideas were never pursued.  The Louisville and Memphis airports themselves may not have generated high-paying jobs for cargo, but with good planning and execution, that includes ground transportation, they could serve as stimuli for economic growth, similar to the Healthline and Euclid Avenue. I think the plan for OH is more for commercial aviation vs cargo/freight. 

 

Also with > 32% of the population in abject poverty, Greater Cleveland needs jobs. Period. Commercial and/or cargo aviation could be an additional driver of economic growth in the region.

Edited November 18, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

1 hour ago, Frmr CLEder said:

The same has been true for NEO, going back over 50 years, but the ideas were never pursued.  The Louisville and Memphis airports themselves may not have generated high-paying jobs for cargo, but with good planning and execution, that includes ground transportation, they could serve as stimuli for economic growth, similar to the Healthline and Euclid Avenue. I think the plan for OH is more for commercial aviation vs cargo/freight. 

 

Also with > 32% of the population in abject poverty, Greater Cleveland needs jobs. Period.

Commercial aviation could be an additional driver of economic growth in the region.

About a 20 years ago, Lufhansa Cargo approached the City about establishing a cargo hub at Hopkins. Lufthansa was told there was no room

Edited November 18, 20195 yr by B767PILOT

Didn't Condor operate flights out of Hopkins for a while?

7 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Didn't Condor operate flights out of Hopkins for a while?

I beleive seasonal summer service for a while

On 11/17/2019 at 2:23 AM, Frmr CLEder said:

Not to detract from Columbus, but from an historical perspective, it has never been considered "urban." It has never had the population density to achieve that distinction. While it may be the largest city, in population and in size, it has never had the density of Cleveland nor Cincinnati; NEO and SWO are the most densely populated regions of the state. With that density comes unique transportation challenges; urban transit and inter/intracity rail vs freeway overpasses and interchanges; large airport hubs vs regional connecting airports to large airport hubs in other states.

 

This statement would have been accurate 20 years ago, but it simply isn't the case anymore. Central Ohio has density in its urban core equal to, or greater than, both SWO and NEO. When you zoom out to the MSA or CSA level the densities get a bit skewed because the Columbus MSA encompasses more area than the other two; however, much of the population is concentrated around the the 270 loop. Take a look at the core counties for instance:

 

Hamilton County Population: 816,684 (37% of MSA pop)

Hamilton County Area: 413 sq mi (10% of MSA), 6.7 sq mi of water

Hamilton County Density: 2,012/sq mi

 

Franklin County Population: 1,310,300 (62% of MSA pop)

Franklin County Area: 544 sq mi (13% of MSA), 11 sq mi of water

Franklin County Density: 2,463/sq mi

 

Cuyahoga County Population: 1,243,857

Cuyahoga County Area: 1,246 sq mi (62% of MSA), 788 sq mi of water

Cuyahoga County Density: 2,722/sq mi

 

NEO is, by far, the most densely populated region of the state. There's no doubt about that. However, as you can see from the above statistics, Central Ohio and SWO are fairly comparable when it comes to "urban density". Hamilton County accounts for 37% of the Cincinnati MSA population, while accounting for 10% of the area. In comparison, Franklin County accounts for 62% of the Columbus MSA population while accounting for just 13% of the area. Given that the total population of the two MSAs is very comparable (2,189,442 in Cincinnati vs. 2,106,541 in Columbus), we can see that much of the Columbus MSA population is focused around the core while the Cincinnati MSA has experienced more sprawl. 

 

Additionally, Columbus has some of the most densely populated census tracts in the state. Columbus has 6 tracts with a 15k+ density, with the most densely populated tract being 29k. By comparison, Cincinnati only has 3 tracts over 15k with its highest being 16.9k, and Cleveland only has two tracts over 15k with its highest being 22.9k. These densities are based on 2010 census numbers, so based on the fact that Franklin County has grown by ~300k people since then, the Columbus densities are probably even higher now. 

 

I don't want this to turn into a city vs city argument, I'm simply laying out the figures which prove that Cincinnati and Cleveland don't have a unique situation when it comes to population and density that Columbus does not have. Columbus is every bit as dense as Cincinnati, and quickly gaining on Cleveland. We are currently re-working highway interchanges all over the city to handle recent a future population growth. We are implementing studies for new forms of mass transit. Our PAX numbers at CMH and LCK are growing quickly and plans for a new terminal are already underway. 

 

So, I say all that to say you are correct when you say Columbus historically was on a different level than Cincinnati and Cleveland, but that is simply no longer the case. To immediately drop Central Ohio from any conversation relating to "unique transportation challenges" because of a perceived lack of population and density is inappropriate. Additionally, to blame the transportation-related decisions made by elected state officials on the city of Columbus makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.  

 

P.S. I just realized I somehow managed to downvote your post. Not sure how, but it was accidental. 

 

46 minutes ago, cbussoccer said:

 

This statement would have been accurate 20 years ago, but it simply isn't the case anymore. Central Ohio has density in its urban core equal to, or greater than, both SWO and NEO. When you zoom out to the MSA or CSA level the densities get a bit skewed because the Columbus MSA encompasses more area than the other two; however, much of the population is concentrated around the the 270 loop. Take a look at the core counties for instance:

 

Hamilton County Population: 816,684 (37% of MSA pop)

Hamilton County Area: 413 sq mi (10% of MSA), 6.7 sq mi of water

Hamilton County Density: 2,012/sq mi

 

Franklin County Population: 1,310,300 (62% of MSA pop)

Franklin County Area: 544 sq mi (13% of MSA), 11 sq mi of water

Franklin County Density: 2,463/sq mi

 

Cuyahoga County Population: 1,243,857

Cuyahoga County Area: 1,246 sq mi (62% of MSA), 788 sq mi of water

Cuyahoga County Density: 2,722/sq mi

 

NEO is, by far, the most densely populated region of the state. There's no doubt about that. However, as you can see from the above statistics, Central Ohio and SWO are fairly comparable when it comes to "urban density". Hamilton County accounts for 37% of the Cincinnati MSA population, while accounting for 10% of the area. In comparison, Franklin County accounts for 62% of the Columbus MSA population while accounting for just 13% of the area. Given that the total population of the two MSAs is very comparable (2,189,442 in Cincinnati vs. 2,106,541 in Columbus), we can see that much of the Columbus MSA population is focused around the core while the Cincinnati MSA has experienced more sprawl. 

 

Additionally, Columbus has some of the most densely populated census tracts in the state. Columbus has 6 tracts with a 15k+ density, with the most densely populated tract being 29k. By comparison, Cincinnati only has 3 tracts over 15k with its highest being 16.9k, and Cleveland only has two tracts over 15k with its highest being 22.9k. These densities are based on 2010 census numbers, so based on the fact that Franklin County has grown by ~300k people since then, the Columbus densities are probably even higher now. 

 

I don't want this to turn into a city vs city argument, I'm simply laying out the figures which prove that Cincinnati and Cleveland don't have a unique situation when it comes to population and density that Columbus does not have. Columbus is every bit as dense as Cincinnati, and quickly gaining on Cleveland. We are currently re-working highway interchanges all over the city to handle recent a future population growth. We are implementing studies for new forms of mass transit. Our PAX numbers at CMH and LCK are growing quickly and plans for a new terminal are already underway. 

 

So, I say all that to say you are correct when you say Columbus historically was on a different level than Cincinnati and Cleveland, but that is simply no longer the case. To immediately drop Central Ohio from any conversation relating to "unique transportation challenges" because of a perceived lack of population and density is inappropriate. Additionally, to blame the transportation-related decisions made by elected state officials on the city of Columbus makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.  

 

P.S. I just realized I somehow managed to downvote your post. Not sure how, but it was accidental. 

 

 

To clarify and to answer any remaining questions, my points are as follows;

 

1.  You can easily correct your vote by recasting it. Just click on your vote to recast

2.  It should not be a city vs city discussion. All have their own unique advantages/disadvantages

3.  As Columbus begins to share some of the urban challenges that have faced Cleveland and Cincinnati for more than a century, the pendulum may finally be swinging in favor of enhanced support for urban-related transportation and economic development issues 

3.  NEO and SWO have historically been, and are still the most densely populated areas, as your density numbers above reflect. Now that the Columbus area has also grown in density, that may be the rationale for combining Columbus, Cincinnati and Dayton into a single region.

4.  Those density characteristics, from an urban planning perspective, necessitate different approaches to addressing transportation needs

5.  As the seat for the State of Ohio, Columbus dictates what happens elsewhere in the state. It's no different than Cuyahoga County decisions impacting the City of Cleveland. The difference however is that since Cuyahoga County is also densely populated, many, not all, decisions are more closely aligned with the needs of the City of Cleveland (ie; the County's building of the Huntington Convention Center & Hilton). Geographically, most of Ohio is rural.

6.  Historically, the State of Ohio has not been very supportive of urban mass transit initiatives, preferring instead to focus on the support of sprawl

7.  The lack of support for non-sprawl transportation initiatives has hindered the state's economic development

8.  The idea of regional airport hubs has been previously proposed (50 years ago), but because, in part, on the reasons stated above, it never gained traction in Columbus

9.  Other state capitals have been supportive of urban transit in their densely populated areas (Albany, Hartford, Sacramento, Tallahassee, Harrisburg, etc.)

10.  So here Ohio is again, fifty years later: 

     A.  Does this newly reintroduced proposal have legs?

     B.  What would Ohio's economic status look like if we had adopted this proposal 50 years ago?

    C.  Would there be greater economic development in the state today, if they had adopted an urban transportation strategy 50 years ago?

   D.  Has the train already left the station for international airport hubs?  Can Ohio support the development and will it be utilized?  Is the cost and associated risk of this development now prohibitive?

Edited November 18, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

13 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

1.  You can easily correct your vote by recasting it. Just click on your vote to recast

 

I'm aware. I deleted the downvote. I just didn't want you to think I was erroneously downvoting your post given that I was responding to it and I know how touchy things can get in these type of threads. 

 

6 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

3.  NEO and SWO have historically been, and are still the most densely populated areas, as your density numbers above reflect

 

I just proved that SWO is no more densely populated than Central Ohio at this point. Did you read what I wrote?

 

8 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

5.  As the seat for the State of Ohio, Columbus dictates what happens elsewhere in the state. It's no different than Cuyahoga County decisions impacting the City of Cleveland. The difference however is that since Cuyahoga County is also densely populated, many, not all, decisions are more closely aligned with the needs of the City of Cleveland (ie; the County's building of the Huntington Convention Center & Hilton)

 

Are you aware of the process by which the state government is created? Yes, the decisions are physically made within the city of Columbus, but they are made by people from around the state, representing constituents from around the state, including the urban oasis of Cleveland. The notion that a legislator from NEO is going to legislate based on the current development trends within Columbus as opposed to legislating based on the concerns and needs of his/her own constituents makes no sense whatsoever. 

 

 

I think most people on this blog will agree that the State of Ohio, which is seated in Columbus, has never had an appetite for urban transportation. Period. 

 

Now there may be individuals in Columbus who support it, historically the State has not, given the fact that most of the state is rural.

 

Southeastern or Central NW Ohio residents could care less about urban development.

Edited November 18, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

To bring this back to airports, I have to say I'm still not convinced that SWOH would benefit at all from a new international airport. I see much more benefit in adding light rail from CVG to downtown Cincy. Business travelers really want a short trip from the airport. They do not want to fly into a cornfield in Monroe or Jeffersonville and drive an hour plus to their destination. 

 

 

 

I think the State would like the financial benefit of CVG being located within the state vs those resources going to KY.

 

CLE is completely landlocked, so there's only so much growth that it can handle at its current location. It has train service from downtown, but it would need re-routing to the new location.

Edited November 18, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

24 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

To bring this back to airports, I have to say I'm still not convinced that SWOH would benefit at all from a new international airport. I see much more benefit in adding light rail from CVG to downtown Cincy. Business travelers really want a short trip from the airport. They do not want to fly into a cornfield in Monroe or Jeffersonville and drive an hour plus to their destination. 

 

 

 

 

It would only make sense if it were built in conjunction with (a) commuter/LRT line(s).

Would it make more sense in Middletown, which would probably be easier from a commuter rail connection standpoint, or Jeffersonville, which is pretty much equidistant to Columbus, Cincy, and Dayton? 

 

The latter option would be further away from a city center than any other current airport in the country. 

Edited November 18, 20195 yr by BigDipper 80

21 minutes ago, BigDipper 80 said:

or Jeffersonville, which is pretty much equidistant to Columbus, Cincy, and Dayton? 

 

Not only is it equidistant, but there's a lovely outlet mall that travelers could check out when their flight is cancelled! 

 

Seriously though, Jeffersonville would be way too far from any city center to be feasible.

 

An interesting but unrealistic concept would be to build an airport near Jeffersonville that would solely be used for international flights. I think most people in Cincinnati, Dayton, and Columbus would make the 45-60 minute drive to Jeffersonville to hop on a direct flight to London instead of driving to CVG, DAY, or CMH to fly to a hub and then layover before their European flight. Having 4-5 million people within an hour drive would certainly support a handful of direct international flights. This concept would benefit each city because they could keep their commonly used domestic flights in there local airports, but the less commonly used international flights would still be just an hour away. 

I'm sure relocating CVG to a new location in OH would require approval of the Executive Branch (FAA), but if the Senate is also involved, it's almost guaranteed that Mitch McConnel and his associates would be obstructionists and never approve of the move.

8 hours ago, BigDipper 80 said:

Would it make more sense in Middletown, which would probably be easier from a commuter rail connection standpoint, or Jeffersonville, which is pretty much equidistant to Columbus, Cincy, and Dayton? 

 

The latter option would be further away from a city center than any other current airport in the country. 

 

Good question... Jeffersonville is a hike from any of the three big cities surrounding it but it is the most central location.

 

What would make me say MIddletown is a smarter choice is the fact that CMH is in the beginning process of building a new terminal.

Right now they just started on a new rental car garage, but if the whole master plan is executed it'll be a billion dollar project.

 

IDK about CVG but DAY has a master plan too where they demolish terminals A & B, shrink both down a bit, and put them in a V-shaped formation instead of the U shape now.

It seems like they are keeping these plans relatively private though vs. CMH, which makes me wonder if DAY has confidence in their funding.

That, steel stock prices are crashing, CVG just landed Amazon.... now might be the time to get this done.

 

Edited November 19, 20195 yr by SWOH

Just to give you guys an idea at what CVG may be like in a few years, let's look at Louisville (SDF), UPS' hub.

 

I don't have any figures offhand, but the skyview IMO shows well enough that the majority of planes through SDF are UPS, not commuter.

Their actual commuter airport is very small compared to the massive cargo hub directly south.

Given what Amazon is doing, for better or worse a lot of the work that is being done at the UPS hub in this screenshot will probably be coming up north to CVG, and CVG will look something like this picture.

 

Maybe CVG could morph back into a hub. It'd be good overall for Daytonnati. But I do not think any legislator in OH is going to want that to happen, especially if they could buy out AK Steel Middletown and maybe even convince them to move some production to Mansfield or Ashland KY, which employed a lot of Ohioans and is slated to close.

 

Yes, I read what you wrote.

 

"I just proved that SWO is no more densely populated than Central Ohio at this point. Did you read what I wrote?"

 

I don't think anyone on this blog will agree that the City of Columbus is as densely populated as the City of Cincinnati; according to Wiki, Franklin County is slightly more densely populated than Hamilton (100/sqm). Remember Columbus' growth (population and size) came through annexation of its less densely populated urban suburbs. It sits within three counties. The net effect was a dilution of the city's overall density.

 

To get back on topic however,

O. The challenge in SWO is that while the cities are relatively close, a centrally located airport will take too long to get to from any of those three cities, rail would need to be an absolute requirement

O. NEO is less challenging, again because of its density, but again rail from Cleveland, Akron, Canton, Youngstown would be needed from the major cities.

 

While it will undoubtedly lead to spinoff economic development in NEO and SWO, does the State of Ohio, seated in Columbus, really have the appetite to fund this kind of development? 

 

Has the political pendulum finally swung in favor of this kind of transportation funding?

 

Is this level of funding even available?

Edited November 19, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

the cle airport probably should have been ditched and moved out to a rural at the time sw area long ago, but that ship has sailed.

 

also, its currently hub-less and underused, so probably it makes better sense to reconfigure the site and build up the runways over time.

 

that would be hella expensive enough as it is, but could be done piecemeal.

 

the real boondoogle was loosing the cinci airport.

 

it should be rebuilt someday as a cin-day airport connected to each by rail.

 

my spouse and her sister have to fly there lately to get to dayton.

 

at least their bro's family is in cinci to pick them up sometimes.

 

its far, but the dayton airport is also far from centerville, so a cin-day airport would be ideal for us.

 

good news is, the cols and dayton airports are more than ok and the akron-canton airport is actually stellar, so ohio isnt really hurting too badly at all with airports.